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Say what you will about the tenets of national socialism, they’re still assholes.

After two people were killed by a white supremacist terrorist after they tried to stop him from haranguing two young women on a light rail train, Portland, Oregon, is not the happy city of hippy-dippy crafters putting birds on stuff that we never really thought it was. It’s a city in mourning for two heroes who had their throats slashed for trying to intervene in a racist harangue. So maybe right now is not the best time to add to the general political ferment by scheduling a “Trump Free Speech Rally” for next Sunday, or to honor the killer’s hatred with a “March Against Sharia” on June 10. Which is why, of course, the organizers of those events are absolutely set on going ahead with them, because it’s very important to be as provocative as possible right now. Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler has asked the federal government to revoke the permit, already issued, for the first event, and to deny a permit for the second, at least while the city is dealing with a fresh hate-motivated murder. The location for the rallies, Shrunk Plaza downtown, is a federal site, and the city government has already refused to issue permits for the events.

On Facebook Monday, Wheeler wrote,

Our community remains in shock and mourning. But we are also tremendously grateful to our heroes and their families for their selflessness and heroism. They will serve to inspire us to be the loving, courageous people we are meant to be […]

Our City is in mourning, our community’s anger is real, and the timing and subject of these events can only exacerbate an already difficult situation.

Wheeler also appealed to the event organizers to cancel them, as if that were likely, and urged them “to ask their supporters to stay away from Portland. There is never a place for bigotry or hatred in our community, and especially not now.” Ah, but you see, the organizers have to dig in now, because if they don’t, they’ll be giving in to Liberal Fascism, so the only noble thing to do is to be as offensive as they can while also promising to remain peaceful. And of course the usual small but violent groups of asshole anarchists, Black Bloc rowdies, and assorted anti-fascist (“antifa”) street fighters are spoiling for a fight and looking forward to the chance to smash some Starbucks windows, to help bring about the Revolution. (Not all antifascist folks are violent. The ones who are, we don’t like.)

And so Portland finds itself with a classic First Amendment dilemma: To what degree can a reasonable fear of violence justify shutting down speech in advance? The courts have always been pretty clear on that one: Offensive speech — especially offensive, even hateful speech — is protected, and the government can’t shut it down — but it can make sure police are on hand to control any outbreaks of violence. The ACLU of Oregon responded to Wheeler’s call for the revocation of the permits with a good old-fashioned Let The Nazis March In Skokie series of tweets:

The government cannot revoke or deny a permit based on the viewpoint of the demonstrators. Period.

It may be tempting to shut down speech we disagree with, but once we allow the government to decide what we can say, see, or hear, or who we can gather with[,] history shows us that the most marginalized will be disproportionately censored and punished for unpopular speech. We are all free to reject and protest ideas we don’t agree with. That is a core, fundamental freedom of the United States. If we allow the government to shut down speech for some, we all will pay the price down the line.

Yr Dok Zoom is an old school ACLU card-carrier, so we find that pretty persuasive, along with the sweet old-fashioned notion that the best way to combat offensive speech is with more speech. And when it comes to Nazis, with social shunning, boycotts, and a recognition that someone having the right to free speech in no way obligates the rest of us to hand them a microphone. But if protest is allowed in a park, then it’s allowed even for people with abhorrent views, because First Amendment. Should it be allowed at any time, especially a week after an evil loser has murdered people? That one, we’re persuadable on: It’s close enough to yelling “theater!” in a crowded fire that we can see the case for shutting it down, temporarily, as long as there’s a guarantee the marches will be allowed later. We won’t pretend to know for certain, but the accused murderer in Portland being photographed Heiling Hitler while wrapped in a flag at the last event organized by the “Trump Free Speech People” certainly doesn’t make them seem like benign free speech advocates:

The organizer of the “Trump Free Speech Rally,” Joey Gibson, sought to distance himself and his group, Patriot Prayer, from Christian, especially as reports surfaced that he appeared at the group’s other events. In a video posted to Facebook on Sunday, Gibson condemned Christian and said antifa protesters were trying to incite chaos at the upcoming rally by exploiting the attacks on the train.

“There’s going to be more intensity, there’s going to be more threats,” Gibson said. “They’re using the deaths of these two people and Jeremy Christian — they’re using it to get Portland all rowdy about our June 4 rally and it’s absolutely disgusting.”

Gibson urged his supporters to remain calm. “You throw one punch, you’re going to jail,” he said.

See? All nice and nonviolent — but one of the featured speakers is Kyle Chapman, the violent convicted felon the “alt-right” is calling “Based Stick Man” because he hit some demonstrators at Berkeley with a stick. He’ll be there to nonviolently advocate free speech, and maybe he’ll mention busting heads, as an aside. But again, the courts are very clear on this — the possibility of incitement to violence is insufficient to allow government to quash a rally, although actual incitement could be grounds for arrest.

But that’s the thing with free speech — if you ban the neo-Nazis, then you’ve set a precedent to ban protests after cops kill an unarmed black kid. Democracy has room for assholes — and as long as the only thing the assholes are using is words, then they have the right to their assholishness. And a heavy police presence, to keep them and antifa troublemakers well apart.

Yr Wonkette is supported by reader donations. Please click the “Donate” clicky if you like this article, and try not to burn down Dok Zoom’s house with him inside it if you don’t.

[WaPo / ACLU of Oregon on Twitter / Guardian]

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  • UnsaltedSinner
  • Oblios_Cap

    Yr Dok Zoom is an old school ACLU card-carrier, so we find that pretty persuasive, along with the sweet old-fashioned notion that the best way to combat offensive speech is with more speech.

    As an ACLU card-carrier myself, I have to agree with you Dok.

  • ichthyopteryx

    To butcher Voltaire: “I do not agree with what you have to say, but I can still call you an arsehole for saying it.”

    • onedollarjuana

      Or “I do not agree with what you have to say, but I can still somehow not be able to find my phone to call 911 when the pacifists come after you with baseball bats.”

      • TheBoatDude

        With votes

  • BearGHAZI

    Shari’s is not as good a restaurant as Denny’s, but I see no reason to march forth against them

    • Meanie-meanie, tickle a person

      Don’t care for Shari’s slaw…

    • alpacapunchbowl

      There’s a restaurant worse than Denny’s?

      • Ill_Used_Floppy_Disk

        Perkins

        • FlownΩver

          Rotting potato, rotting potahto.

      • TheBoatDude

        Waffle House

        • alpacapunchbowl

          I have not had the “pleasure”

          • TheBoatDude

            It’s better when you’re drunk…

          • alpacapunchbowl

            Ohhhh, so kinda like White Castle?

          • I can’t stand if I’m that drunk.

          • TheBoatDude

            OK, drunk is mandatory with White Castle. Much like Taco Bravo in Campbell, CA…never go there sober…

  • memzilla Ω

    O/T: Sean Spicer Booed At Press Conference

    (Palmer Report) – Spicer opened his briefing today by offering a long and largely
    fictional monologue about how well Donald Trump’s failed overseas trip
    had gone. He then opened the floor to questions. As per usual, the
    questions were largely focused on Trump’s exploding scandals, and also
    per usual, Spicer’s answers were defensive and unsatisfactory to anyone
    in the room. Then Spicer abruptly left the room, far earlier than would
    have been expected for such a briefing.
    https://twitter.com/colinjones/status/869632347305541633

    • C4TWOMAN

      And went to hide in the bushes.

    • Michael R

      His example of fake news had nothing to do with fake news , what he is saying is that Fat Ass the Clown doesn’t like anything that makes him look like exactly what he is , a stupid sick joke .

    • CatDog

      I read ‘Trump’s exploding sandals’ and pleasing visions momentarily ensued.

      • FlownΩver

        It’s what he wears while the clown shoes are being polished.

  • Serai 1

    The best thing Portland can do is exactly what Skokie did: go inside, shut the doors, and refuse to give these poisonous fuckers an audience, which is what they want. Let the crazy anarchists deal with them. Let them brawl in the streets. They’re animals – there’s no reason why good people should pay the slightest attention to their hateful rants.

    • Marceline

      Exactly. What they deserve are crickets but that’s no fun.

      • puredog

        How about fleas and bedbugs? Now, that would be fun.

        • FlownΩver

          Oak mites. Nasty, itchy, long-lasting motherfuckers.

    • FlownΩver

      I hope there will be enough video recording to assure we’ll all know who needs to be shunned ever after.

    • Lamashtar

      If only they’d do it in a stadium, people would pay to watch.

  • Meanie-meanie, tickle a person

    Wonkette (SIGH) Is With Them, Ugh

    Yyyyup. Times like these the allure of dipshit ideology is…alluring. It’s so much fucking easier to just be a dipshit…

  • MynameisBlarney
  • Beanz&Berryz

    Ya… I like Ted, but he’s wrong on this one.

    PS: This is much easier – acknowledging when your guy dopes one – than getting all twisted into knots trying to pretend that dumb things your guy says aren’t dumb but are smart, for reasons…

    • TX Dept. of Space Tacos

      aye, it’s the mark of maturity and intelligence.

    • Meanie-meanie, tickle a person

      The truth usually is.

  • Moebym Reborn

    That’s fair. But even so, they don’t get to scream that their FA rights are being violated when someone calls them out for their hate speech, or prevent others from exercising their own FA rights.

  • ArgieBargie

    Worst. Portlandia episode. Ever.

  • Spotts1701, Resistance Pilot

    *sigh* Sometimes it’s hard being the adults…

  • TX Dept. of Space Tacos

    i agree Dok…

    However, I couldn’t help but think about the difference between a left and right movement. Wasn’t their a story a few years ago (maybe Portland?) where law enforcement infiltrated a bunch of lefty groups and then arrested them before their demonstration becase, “reasons”.

    NOT saying that should happen, it’s just an observation.

  • jesterpunk

    The alt text on this comic fits pretty well.

    https://xkcd.com/1357/

    I can’t remember where I heard this, but someone once said that
    defending a position by citing free speech is sort of the ultimate
    concession; you’re saying that the most compelling thing you can say for
    your position is that it’s not literally illegal to express.

    • Meanie-meanie, tickle a person

      Thing is, though, you’re defending yourself, and your right to talk trash, not the trash itself. And in America, the ACLU does that for you. As Yakov would say, what a country!
      Also too, nobody has to actually listen, much to the dismay of the dipshits…

  • Meanie-meanie, tickle a person

    Know what would be the neatest thing? Let these dipshits hold their marches, and thousands of right-thinking Oregonians encircle them, watching. Silently. Not a fucking peep. Can’t happen, outside of my fantasies, because people just ain’t wired that way, but damn that would be nice.

    • TX Dept. of Space Tacos

      then when they’re done, just look at each other, shrug, and say, “who wants free range, gluten free, organic fro-yo?”

      Then just meander away, perhaps humming a jaunty tune.

      • Indivisible Snark Tank

        The problem is that these asshats have the “Snark Tank Trying to Pick Up Girls At a Bar” philosophy…it only takes one new recruit to make the rally a success…and even if she’s disgusting, I still get laid.

      • TheBoatDude

        Like Tijuana Taxi…

    • Indivisible Snark Tank

      Sounds like a bad episode of “The Leftovers”….and that doesn’t work out that well for the Guilty Remnant (spoiler alert for Season 1!).

    • jesterpunk

      You mean like what they do for westboro, just circle them and face away from them?

      • Meanie-meanie, tickle a person

        I wouldn’t turn my back on these guys…

        • FlownΩver

          I might, if it also involved lowering my Levis™ to half mast.

    • Dr. Rrrrrobotnik

      Not just silently watching, but videotaping and taking pictures of each and every one who’s dumb enough to show their faces. Let their families and friends know their true quality.

      • MynameisBlarney

        To be fair…
        Their family and friends are likely right there with them.

        • Dr. Rrrrrobotnik

          True enough. But their employers probably aren’t.

    • Jeffocaster in the East

      Uh, I know you used the word correctly, but I would have said, Correct thinking, not right thinking……I hear ya.

      • Meanie-meanie, tickle a person

        I think the phrase predates the wing…

  • Manders

    Would it be possible to drown them out with, like, a concert or something? The folks who protest Westboro always did a good job of making them look goofy and making it hard for them to disrupt things.

    • janecita

      Check out this video on YouTube:

      http://youtu.be/BD-fWMYcHXk

    • puredog

      A million years ago, when dinosaurs roamed the earth and all the acid was Orange Sunshine, the VFW had scheduled their annual convention in Portland OR at a time when passions were running very high over the Vietnam War. The Yippies, SDS, Weathermen, and anyone else who cared announced their plan to come to Portland and SHUT THAT SHIT DOWN. Oregon Governor Tom McCall used state funds to organize a rock festival in the nearby (yet 20 miles away) Milo McIver State Park, and let it be known that the usual laws against drug use and nudity would not be enforced. When the masses descended on Portland to break heads but found that this Woodstock fire-free zone had been established, many thousands of them opted to make love instead of war, went to the park, and rendered near-toothless the planned demonstrations and likely rioting. Many Repubs tut-tutted about McCall’s thinking outside the box so tastelessly, but it was a fucking genius move.

  • C4TWOMAN

    When Nazis are involved I respectfully disagree.

    The point of these rallies is not to “speak” or be heard, but to organize racists. That is the point, to organize Nazis and promote their agenda, which always includes violently getting rid of “undesirables”.
    This is why countries ban Holocaust Denial and other trappings glorifying the Third Rieche, they know it’s nothing to do with speech, but organizing under the cover of “freeze peach”.

    The American left is extremely naive on this point.

    • Spotts1701, Resistance Pilot

      You can’t ban free assembly as long as it is “peaceful”, either. It becomes a riot, then you can clear the streets. But until that point, it’s still constitutionally protected, no matter how offensive.

      • C4TWOMAN

        “the point, to organize Nazis and promote their agenda,”

        This has nothing to do with being “offensive”. This is ORGANIZING a terrorist group.
        That is ALWAYS what Nazi rallies are about.

        • Jennifer R

          Hate speech rallies are inherent violence in and of themselves.

          • Spotts1701, Resistance Pilot

            Believe me, this is not an easy issue to grapple with. First Amendment lawyers and academics have been trying to sort this out for 200+ years. But once the state starts deciding which speech is “acceptable” and which speech is not is not a good direction for any sort of free form of government to head.
            The law has always been meant to be a shield, not a sword.

          • C4TWOMAN

            We are simply going to disagree. But I am very curious if you know at what point Nazis organizing got re framed as “free speech”. Because other Western Counties who fought the Nazis don’t have this confusion.

          • TX Dept. of Space Tacos

            they probably have different constitutions and different interpretations…

            Here’s the part that I think is more useful and more interesting. Perhaps Spotts will address it.

            While I agree with you on everything, I’m not sure how speech that says we should gas/kill/shoot/eliminate the jews, blacks, and mexicans doesn’t count as incitement to violence.

            I believe incitement has a pretty high bar, IIRC from class, just curious.

          • C4TWOMAN

            There’s probably some fine point that get’s lost in translation. It took me YEARS to understand why the Swastika is banned because I too was thinking, but “freeze peech”. It doesn’t help American leftists don’t really want to explain it better. These explanations based on “offensiveness” sound deep, but are facile and pat.

            Oh if I had only stuck with my high school German!

          • puredog

            “We should gas/kill/shoot/eliminate the jews, blacks, and mexicans, and there’s a bunch of them standing right there, GO GIT ‘EM RIGHT NOW!” Police swarm in, no constitutional violation at that point.

          • Spotts1701, Resistance Pilot

            Incitement must not only include the overt threat to commit lawless action, but also the threat that the action is imminent and likely to occur. The Brandenburg case is still the benchmark – it’s not enough to say “Let’s burn down that building!” The speaker must also indicate they want to do so right now, and there must be clear showing that the audience will carry out the speaker’s threat.

          • TX Dept. of Space Tacos

            ah, thanks for the refresher. That sounds familiar, I knew there were more elements to it, but couldn’t remember.

          • C4TWOMAN
          • Spotts1701, Resistance Pilot

            Civil suit, not criminal case. He was not imprisoned for his statements. Merely bankrupted.

          • puredog

            Otherwestern countries who fought the nazis don’t have the First Amendment. And unlike the Second (in its presently warped form, as interpreted), the First is worth clinging to. But yes, we are going to disagree.

          • C4TWOMAN

            “don’t have the First Amendment”.

            And they have nothing approximate to it? I find that hard to believe. I suppose I will be Googling later…

          • Jennifer R

            They mostly do have either constitutional or common law equivalents. They just realized letting people foment violence against minorities was bad, after that business in Germany.

          • Spotts1701, Resistance Pilot

            Nothing as robust. They may have similar protections, but not as broadly written.

          • Jennifer R

            Part of that is that the first amendment here does so many things that most other countries would split up. Especially all the bits involving religion, considering that most of Europe still has official State Churches.

          • Spotts1701, Resistance Pilot

            Yeah, when you try to cram everything into 10 Amendments, some stuff gets tossed together…

          • C4TWOMAN

            And yet, ironically, are more secular countries than the States…

          • Jennifer R

            Yeah, like they got tired of fighting holy wars over and over and over again.

          • CatDog

            It is certainly the case here in Australia. No constitutional guarantee of free speech, although an implicit right has been recognised by the High Court.

          • CatDog

            Aside from questions of free speech, I think that by trying to physically prevent Nazis from assembling you would be giving them exactly what they want: the sense that they are the leading force in a war and/or martyrs. It’s bad tactics. On a personal level, however, I would love to punch one right in the kisser, but some urges need to be controlled (or at least kept in reserve).

          • Jennifer R

            Still not feeling that we have to allow speech that directs discrimination towards others for their immutable characteristics.

          • Spotts1701, Resistance Pilot

            I get the feeling. I do. And I can’t speak for you or your experiences, so I am mindful that this is a particularly uncomfortable position and I do hope I am not speaking out of turn (and if I am, please tell me so I may apologize and make amends).

          • Jennifer R

            No, you aren’t. We just have different viewpoints and are respectfully disagreeing, like adults.

          • Spotts1701, Resistance Pilot

            I’m glad for that. I feel sometimes that I get pedantic, and I lost a friendship over a disagreement like this (an experience that really sucked).

          • puredog

            I am immutably deplorable, and must agree.

          • Jennifer R

            Except that racist isn’t an immutable characteristic?

          • C4TWOMAN

            It’s an intimidation tactic, yes. This focus of offensiveness misses the point–or isn’t well thought out. Using speech to intimidate someone is not protected, so I’m not seeing why there’s trouble with the mental leap that a mass of people using intimidation tactics should not be protected.

      • Jennifer R

        That doesn’t make it right, or proper. Only legal. Which is the worst thing ever because then the law only exists to support the law and not the people.

        • The law is an important component in serving people.

          • Jennifer R

            In this case it’s serving them to the Nazis.

          • The Nazis are not breaking the law. It’s important you make that distinction.

          • Jennifer R

            Their rallies are inherent violence and they do not deserve the opportunity to spout their hate and nonsense regardless.

            Edit: donnie didn’t break the law leaking secrets to Russia either, “it’s legal” isn’t a compelling argument when it’s your only one.

          • You haven’t understood the difficulty in establishing civil rights.

          • Spotts1701, Resistance Pilot

            Just as an aside, I would be very careful. Please don’t make the assumption that Jennifer doesn’t know. She does.

          • The assumption is based on one so willing to quash the law that protects them.

          • puredog

            Something something Thomas More something something.

          • C4TWOMAN

            I support this comment.
            We need to be aware people on the same side can disagree without demonizing or condesending each other.

          • How about this comment?
            “Fuck you too, nazi white knight.”
            Do you support that one too?

          • C4TWOMAN

            I don’t recall replying to that one. Your point?

          • It wasn’t a point, it was a question .

          • C4TWOMAN

            Yes, and it has the smell of flame bait. Dok has already visited upthread, fyi…

          • I actually was looking forward to a thoughtful (possibly even insightful) answer to my question to you, which you dismissed and characterized as flame-bait (thanks), followed by a statement (warning?) that Dok has visited the room.
            Alrighty.

          • C4TWOMAN

            Mkay.

          • Jennifer R

            Tell the queer atheist who got fucked around by her school system (including being locked in closets for being a sinner) that I don’t understand the difficulty of establishing civil rights.

            If there is a right to foment discrimination based on immutable characteristics then the law that forms the basis of that right is so fundamentally flawed it needs to be pulled down instantly.

          • I’ll leave now. I hate one-ups-manship in matters of suffering.

          • Jennifer R

            Fuck you too, nazi white knight.
            Letting other people chant death to queers doesn’t make me safer.

          • See….it’s good to express yourself.

          • CatDog

            Seems to me that you are failing to recognise that allowing Nazis to ‘speak’ does not negate one’s own right to oppose them. Defending someone’s right to free speech is not the same thing as defending what they say (a point made by Voltaire, of course).

          • Jennifer R

            Allowing someone to say I should die because I am queer makes me less safe in an absolute material fashion. My safety is more important than someone else getting to feel better about themselves by threatening me.

        • TX Dept. of Space Tacos

          eh, i agree with’s legal but not right, but disagree on the other part.

          The point that Dok and Spotts are making, if i may be so bold, is that if you use a reason on one group, that same reason can be used on another. IE use it here and it’s fair game on BLM, women’s march, science march, or even the Democratic National Convention.

          • Jennifer R

            But there is a key difference. Not only are their points of views not backed by any sort of science (so their claims of being superior or having a hard truth are lies), but they foment hate, discord, and instability in the community. The government may not have a pressing need to make sure everyone only makes scientifically truthful statements, but they sure as fuck have one keeping violence from happening.

          • TX Dept. of Space Tacos

            eh, if science was a requirement, you’d have to outlaw church services.

            Fomenting discord and instability is a right, and leads to change, whether good or bad..i.e. anti-vietnam war, women’s marches, civil rights marches of hte 60’s and 70’s.

            The hate thing is a fuzzier line I think…it’s legal to hate and therefore I’m guessing to stir up.

            The keeping the violence from happening thing is something I agree with, but apparently Dok and Spotts say the idea of concluding BEFORE any violence that there will be violence is something the courts have said is not okay.

            Again, when it comes to free speech, shuffle around hte parties. LOTS of people could have and did say that hte BLM protests were going to lead to violence (whether is was true or even well supported by the facts)…under your theory, that could have been used to shut down the demonstration and hterefore their message and movement.

          • Jennifer R

            “Let’s fuck these people for immutable characteristics” Is a shitty enough thing to say it should be illegal to do so. Period end of sentence.

          • C4TWOMAN

            I generally agree, but think it should be pinned down to something more specific before the law steps in, like:

            “We’re going to shoot all the [insert enemy]!” And contrary to some people understandings in this subthread, one CAN be convicted for this type of incitement, even if AT THE TIME there was no physical violence.
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Metzger#Oregon_civil_trial

            Which makes these arguments even more feeble: if you know this can lead to murder, you have a duty to prevent it.

          • Spotts1701, Resistance Pilot

            That was a civil trial, not a criminal one, though. There’s nothing preventing us from suing such groups into oblivion for their speech.

          • Spotts1701, Resistance Pilot

            Yeah, that’s kinda where I’m trying to make the point – absent clear and direct threat (i.e., we’re going to hold a rally at such-and-such time, and anyone who shows up who isn’t us is gonna get their head beat in)…you can’t punish someone for something that hasn’t happened yet.

          • TX Dept. of Space Tacos

            cool. thanks.

          • Jennifer R

            Also I am not saying that nazi or klan rallies 100% lead to violence, I am saying that they are in and of themselves violence.

          • puredog

            If you read the recent headlines since, oh, I dunno, January 20, you might conclude that substituting the scientific establishment for the judiciary as the protectors of your rights is an idea only half-thought through.

          • Jennifer R

            Did I say it was the gold star idea? No, I was using it as a way to say that these terrorist hate groups don’t have even the weight of truth on their side. They factually tell lies to get people killed based on the color of their skin or who they get wet over.

          • C4TWOMAN

            terrorist hate groups

            These are the relevant points.

    • shivaskeeper

      They don’t need a rally to organize themselves. They have plenty of websites and social media to do with that where no one will see them.

      • Jennifer R

        Most of them serviced by Cloudflair.

      • C4TWOMAN

        Actually they do. The “beer hall” rallies are a staple of boosting moral and making them feel they are part of an invincible army. The Internet substitute for leafleting of the time, but you can never skip rallies. Even Trump knows this–or at least Bannon told him.

        • shivaskeeper

          But it’s not the government’s place to stop them from free assembly.

          • C4TWOMAN

            This is not about speech and assembly. It’s about organizing a terrorist group and intimidation. Otherwise they wouldn’t identify as Nazis.

          • puredog

            And when the government uses exactly the same rationale to shut down BLM, what will be your response to them? “But you’re WWRROOONNGGG!”?

          • TX Dept. of Space Tacos

            exactly…

          • C4TWOMAN

            I’m sorry. I had no idea the BLM has a history of starting wars of aggression, establishing death camps, and a policy of exterminating Jews, but really, anyone they don’t like…..

          • Jennifer R

            BLM isn’t targeting people based on immutable characteristics?
            Also BLM is already being targeting anyway.

          • shivaskeeper

            Immaterial. Until they cross the line into illegality they are protected. It sucks, but it’s not just the law, it’s one of the founding principles.

            If the precedent is set here, it’ll be a matter of seconds until it’s used in red states to shut down liberal protest.

          • C4TWOMAN

            Someone should test this by starting an Al Queda Fan Club. I suspect we’ll find out terrorist groups aren’t covered by freeze peach–and Nazis are terrorists. Sorry.

          • shivaskeeper

            Legally the Nazi’s a d the alt-right are not listed as terrorist groups.

            Look, I hate Nazis. I hate the ideology. I hate pretty much everything about them. I hate that they are so emboldened they can have a rally, in broad daylight in a liberal city. But until they step over legal lines they are protected.

          • C4TWOMAN

            Legally the Nazi’s a d the alt-right are not listed as terrorist groups.

            And that is the problem. Not “offensiveness”, not speech, they are terrorist groups and not listed as such

            First step is getting them listed. I guarantee you it is no accident Nazis and KKK groups exploit the fact up until now they haven’t been listed. And until people lose the idea Nazis and KKK have a right to organize and march, there will not be the political will to get them listed. Its a dysfunctional circle that protects the alt-right propaganda machine and base from real consequences.

            Today, in the here and now? I agree it may not be legal to stop them. Maybe I wasn’t clear on that point. But, given they are actual terrorist groups we should be working towards the legal means to shut them down. There is a one to one direct connection with allowing Nazis to organize and an increase in Nazi related violence. It isn’t just Antifa who says this, but FBI(? Could be Homeland Security) own investigation showed domestic terrorism to be a greater threat than foreign terrorism.

            Republican lawmakers took great offence at the time. This is also not a coincidence.

          • shivaskeeper

            I don’t disagree with any of that. The trick is going to be getting them labeled as what they are since one of the two major parties counts them as a part of their base.

          • Jennifer R

            Another founding principal was ownership of dark skinned people. Not every thought had by our founders was a winner.

          • shivaskeeper

            You are right of course. However free speech is one of the winners.

          • Jennifer R

            Letting people brew hatred and foment terrorism towards people based on immutable characteristics cannot be a thing that we let happen.

          • shivaskeeper

            If they cross the legal lines, add a hate crime enhancement. Until then they are protected from government interference.

          • shivaskeeper

            We can call it out and deal with it on a personal level. The government cannot.

            Until they cross the line and commit violence or forget the legal requirements and specifically advocate for it they are protected.

    • georgiaburning

      We are a bit late on this. The talk-radio right has been pushing a hate agenda ever since Obama was nominated. Trump moved it to the mainstream.

      • Jennifer R

        I used to hear Rush on the radio as a kid before Clinton was president. They have been pushing this hate angle for a long goddamn time.

        • C4TWOMAN

          The Internets really made it a thing tho. Silver lining: now it’s in the open, maybe people will start taking it more seriously….

        • georgiaburning

          I live in a liberal area where at that time there were all sorts of cranks on talk radio. I never paid much attention to any of them except for laughs. But I agree with your point. It is right around the time, IIRC, that rules were relaxed on multiple station ownership and the old “Fairness Doctrine”

  • Jennifer R

    Nope, just ban being a Nazi in public. Same with being a white supremacist. Don’t need them, can’t defend them, shouldn’t have them.

  • BoatOfVelociraptors

    I just hope the police does to them what they do to BLM protestors. Namely run facial scans on the crowd to identify the participants, examine their social networks, and arrest any with outstanding warrants.

    • TX Dept. of Space Tacos

      that would be an EXCELLENT idea.

    • Marceline

      Polices aren’t going to do anything to Nazis because half of them ARE Nazis. That’s something (white) protesters still haven’t quite internalized. The police don’t want to protect people who stand up to authority. Remember pepper spraying cop at UC Davis? That’s what it’s like when your government thinks you’re 1.) the enemy and 2.) disposable.

      • Lark_in_the_AM

        Sadly, I have to agree with you. Some good news from Clevetown today though – the lying rookie cop that got canned from Independence only to get hired in Cleveland and shoot poor Tamir Rice is now officially unemployed. ‘Bout fucking time.

        • TX Dept. of Space Tacos

          apparently only cause he oopsied on his application…i mean, right outcome, wrong reason.
          Just means it might happen again.
          (Sorry to piss in your cornflakes).

          • BigBoppa ~ Résistent

            Also means he’ll be able to move to the next town over and get hired all over again.

          • Lark_in_the_AM

            Actually, no. Ain’t nobody around here hiring this bozo for even security guard.

          • Lark_in_the_AM

            Oh I know, but the word was that they weren’t going to fire him at all. Everyone knows that there’s the official reason he was fired and the real reason. plus his lying will prevent him from being hired at another law enforcement job.

        • data_ninja

          Amen to that. Making it basically a paperwork error for firing him is disgraceful and obvious deflection. Shit rolls downhill, so this means that some lower level HR clerk is gonna get the heat for this, rather than the upper management that let this shit continue this long.

  • Dok’s right.

    • Jeffocaster in the East

      Of course he is right. He is the KING.

  • UnsaltedSinner

    OT: Sort of a self-portrait, really.

    https://twitter.com/pattymo/status/869591334872592384

    • Jennifer R

      Sledgehammers aren’t illegal in NYC are they? We could solve this bull and dog problem toot sweet.

      • UnsaltedSinner

        I suggest you leave it there. He’s not really coming off as the winner of this pissing contest.

    • alpacapunchbowl

      Poor widdle snowflake!

    • Rick Hill

      Conservatives, and the way they quickly go to scat and piss to express themselves…..

    • janecita

      Are you fucking kidding me? If that’s a dog, I’m the Dalai Lama!

    • Dr. Rrrrrobotnik

      Yeah, you stick it to that… little girl.

      What a hero.

    • therblig

      for some reason, “that bull had integrity” made me think of “there’s not deceit in that cauliflower”, a line that ms. blig and I have been repeating to each other for 30 years.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmB7J-TxQwc

    • The Rain in Spain’s Therapist

      As my wife likes to say, “Men need to evolve.”

    • puredog

      Okay, props. I really like Fearless Girl, but this is funny.

    • therblig

      apparently, he removed it after 3 hours. i guess he showed those feminazis.

  • MynameisBlarney

    I kinda disagree.
    They’re goddamned nazis.
    Fuck ’em.

    • puredog

      Well, Mr. Blarney, I fully agree that, if that is what you believe, and you want to show off your beliefs by showing up and physically attacking the Nazis, accepting what will happen to you (at their hands or the police’s), and all the sequelae, you are welcome to do so at your own personal peril. It’s just that when the state gets to say “we don’t like what you are going to say, and the possible, even likely, danger that it might incite violence, so we are going to withhold permission from you to say it, in advance,” WHY WILL IT NOT BE OKAY FOR THEM TO SAY THAT TO YOU NEXT TIME when you want to demonstrate for some worthy cause you believe in? I am amazed that I even have to have this conversation in these climes. Color me silly, I guess.

      • TX Dept. of Space Tacos

        have to agree (with everything but the last two sentences).

      • tomamitai

        It’s just that when the state gets to say “we don’t like what you are going to say, and the possible, even likely, danger that it might incite violence, so we are going to withhold permission from you to say it, in advance,”WHY WILL IT NOT BE OKAY FOR THEM TO SAY THAT TO YOU NEXT TIME when you want to demonstrate for some worthy cause you believe in?

        Because we are not nazis, a group with a well documented history of genocide?

        • puredog

          And you think that this difference will make a difference to, say, Mayor Pence?

      • MynameisBlarney

        I’m not sure how you got that I wanted to drive all the way to Oregon from Florida to attack a bunch of nazis and get arrested at best, but other than that, you’re right.
        I just loathe the motherfuckers.

    • shivaskeeper

      Then they get shunned, called out, and otherwise made miserable on a personal level. It’s not the Government’s job, local or federal, to do that.

      Free speech means the government won’t say what’s allowed, not that there should be no repercussions on a personal level. Just no repercussions on a government level unless they incite or participate in in illegal shot at their rally.

      • MynameisBlarney

        I know, you’re right, but STILL!
        I just really fuckin hate nazis.

        • shivaskeeper

          Other than other Nazis, everyone hates Nazis.

          • CatDog

            Pretty much. It seems unfortunate that much of the debate on this thread seems to be about who hates Nazis the most. The real question is what kind of powers you wish to grant to the state, not how detestable Nazi are. Can we just assume we all agree that they are absolutely despicable murderous thugs, and argue this as a matter of constitutional principles and political tactics?

  • JMP

    It’s scary, because these neo-Nazi thugs have made it clear they’re itching to go out there and bust some heads while hiding under bullshit claims of “self-defense”. Trump’s encouragement of his fans to beat up protesters at his rallies has really opened the door to the far right going full fascist and embracing violence as a political tactic.

    • TX Dept. of Space Tacos

      which is why the left can’t EVER lose our cool and give them what they want.

      Sadly the few violent lefties out there make it impossible, they go in there thinking they’re warriors and the right gets to paint ALL of us with a broad brush.

      • JMP

        And most of them are just anarchist assholes who just want to smash things who use legitimate protests as cover, then giving aid to the brownshirts who use them to claim that the left is really being violent so they’re justified in their violence.

        • TX Dept. of Space Tacos

          that’s my take on it.

  • Spurning Beer

    At one of the Westboro Church protests, didn’t locals deflate their tires?

    • Jeffocaster in the East

      Literally, or figuratively?

      • YoBunnyBunny

        Why not both?

        • Spurning Beer

          With votes, or possibly small screwdrivers.

    • Spotts1701, Resistance Pilot

      I think when they came to Reno some folks threw snowballs at them. And when I was in Bloomington, Indiana and they rolled up we just stood outside and laughed at them.

  • Crank Tango

    I just hope there are plenty of cameras on hand to capture the hijinks.

    • therblig

      hopefully, employers will see soon-to-be-former employees there.

  • rosenbomb

    Let them have their ‘protest.’ Their numbers will never be as big as some of the marches we have had this year.

  • GreenGoldSharpie

    The thing that scares me is the local Pubbie honcho is calling for militias to come protect the alt-right assholes.

    It’s going to go soooo well, guys.

    • puredog

      Yabbut, Pubbies don’t get much traction in Portland outside of the Oregonian’s comments sections.

      • GreenGoldSharpie

        It’s not people from Oregon I worry about.

        It’s the fact that they want groups like the Oathkeepers involved.

        They will shoot people. They’re itching for it.

    • JohnBull

      Typical. Code Pink and their army of elderly ladies don’t need protection but these camouflaged, gun-toting Trumpist assholes do.

      • GreenGoldSharpie

        Well, of course.

        So, you end up with two sides itching for a fight, one of which is heavily armed.

        Scary shit.

  • Msgr_MΩment

    “Trump Free Speech Rally”

    “Trump-Free Speech Rally” . Punctuation much, goddamnit?

  • puredog

    I’m hella with you Dok. Wrote a letter to My Mayor some hours ago arguing the same points elegantly, before descending to telling him that his invite to the feds to shut down the demos for content-based reasons was “disgraceful” and threatening to withhold my almighty vote from him next go-round. (Unless, of course, Buchal is running.)

  • Marceline

    I’ve been wondering where our Kent State would take place. I’m placing my money on Portland.

    • I figured Berkley.

      • Marceline

        It’s going to be Berkeley, Portland, or Oakland. There’s just too many Nazis vs Antifas waiting to crack heads.

    • DrBigHead

      A year ago I would have said you are over reacting. Now, not so much.

  • shivaskeeper

    Really the best and only answer to this is counter protests and rallies to drown them out. They should, of course, be peaceful counters.

  • BoatOfVelociraptors

    It would be hilarious if someone set up a booth outside selling pre-orders for Far Cry 5. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c9da15ff4f863fa7d13fa90799db8485c25d5b9f1583e38dccc3fc72975a1113.jpg

    • The Rain in Spain’s Therapist

      Everyone in this is way too in shape to be a Trump supporter.

    • TX Dept. of Space Tacos

      if that were real, I would play it.

    • janecita

      I thought that Joseph Seed himself was speaking at the march;-)

    • janecita
      • BoatOfVelociraptors

        So. Many. Choice. Morsels.

    • Lambsendbeds

      WTF is that?

      • janecita

        It’s a game. The bad guys are fundies.

    • theblackdog

      I’ve been wanting to buy this game because the fundies are freaking the hell out at it. They really should look up “Streisand Effect”

  • Msgr_MΩment

    Just as Gandhi envisioned all this.

  • Dr. Rrrrrobotnik

    “And of course the usual small but violent groups of asshole anarchists, Black Bloc rowdies, and assorted anti-fascist (“antifa”) street fighters are spoiling for a fight and looking forward to the chance to smash some Starbucks windows, to help bring about the Revolution.”

    I’m becoming increasingly convinced that said above assholes are becoming the reason for these marches. They’re not trying to convince anyone, they’re trying to make the left look violent in order to justify political repression.

    • tomamitai

      Weren’t some right wingers somewhere in the U.S.A. recently caught planning to send agents provocateur to a protest disguised as lefties to do just that? Probably on the snapbook or facechat or some such cyber tomfoolery.

      • Dr. Rrrrrobotnik

        I’m sure, and I often doubt whether the window-smashers are actually anarchists, so much as police plants or simply opportunistic vandals. We all get tarred with their brush regardless, tho.

      • Spotts1701, Resistance Pilot

        I think that was at the Ann Coulter speech at UC-Berkeley

    • puredog

      Well, yeah, that’s the thing. These white supreemies are cowards. Left unmolested, they would march, and scream, and be ignored. But when the righteous antifa show up and attack them, they are, in fact, under attack, and certainly entitled — at least, in their own minds, and maybe legally — to defend themselves. If they did not march, there would not be violence. But if they were not assailed (however righteously, ideologically), there would not be violence either.

  • Mpeg

    The stabbing on the train really unnerved me. I’m planning to take my first train trip since many years past, this weekend. I’d hoped to have a snooze during part of it — Is there such a thing as “Sleeping with one eye open”?

    • House0fTheBlueLights

      I made a conscious decision not to wear hijab anymore because of this. So I guess they win.

      • Lambsendbeds

        I’m really sorry that you have to make a decision like this to keep yourself safe. As if being a woman out in public doesn’t make you feel vulnerable enough, you feel like you can’t express yourself through your attire without assholes harassing you. We all know that doesn’t apply to religious garb, but ANYTHING a woman chooses to wear. Sometimes the principle of the thing isn’t enough.

    • dorquemada

      Me too. I often ride the Max, and I am physically unable to withhold myself from stopping bullies. Especially when their target is young people. That could have been me on the floor.
      I can’t imagine being in thew military for 23 years, only to have your life taken by a Nazi in Portland. PORTLAND.

  • BigBoppa ~ Résistent
  • BearDeLaOursistance

    I haz idea, Wonket can keep its paws clean but silently subcontract the wet work out to Bear, #chomp.

    • TJ Barke

      Plausible deniability…

      • vivian

        …or paws-ible

        • Toomush_Inferesistance

          bearly….

  • Good_Gawd_Yall

    If I lived anywhere along that parade route, I’d find a local band to set up on my yard and play as loudly as they possibly could while the assembled half-wits marched.

  • Wild Cat

    Well, fuck, if those assholes are going to be there, at least take them bowling or something.

    • alpacapunchbowl

      Aw geez, now I’ll be humming this all day

      • Ferroequinologist Ron

        And you have a problem with that, why?

        • alpacapunchbowl

          Didn’t say that was a bad thing! Could get a little distracting after a couple hours though.

    • Pre-Existing Condition Jack

      Bet some of those creeps can roll.

      Just keep them away from eight year olds.

    • Marsupial99

      You assume they all share the (lack of) hairstyle?

    • puredog

      Unless, of course, it’s shabbos.

  • Lark_in_the_AM

    What if the Nazis held a rally and no one showed up? I really wish there was some way we could organize all the decent people of Portland to simply vacate the area. Let them talk to each other and the cops who are there to keep them corralled, and everyone else go to Multnomah Falls or Cannon Beach for the day. I think the utter emptiness of the square except for the Brown Shirts would be a fitting conveyance of the contempt in which these horrible people are held.

    • Oxidation Suspenders

      I wish for ^^this ^^ also. And for the news media to completely ignore them also too.

      • Lark_in_the_AM

        Except to report that nobody other than the 20 people who belong to the group showed up.

        • Oxidation Suspenders

          I understand that thin skinned Nazis hate it when their small crowd size is accurately reported.

    • Pre-Existing Condition Jack

      If a white supremacist falls in the woods, do we care?

      That’s a great point, Lark. They’re basically provocateurs. If nobody is outraged, they get bored. If nobody showed up, it’d just be another Saturday night of circle jerking for them and they’d go away. . . Probably.

      • TX Dept. of Space Tacos

        yes, exactly.

  • House0fTheBlueLights
    • Wild Cat

      John Adams is too busy composing his minimalist, absurdist opera, “Derek Jeter Invented Baseball.”

  • Il Pagliaccio

    Look, I know some people don’t like the methods that the antifa groups use, but I sort of see where they’re coming from. Neo-Nazis only know one language: Violence and fear. Remember, a Nazi was the one who tried to kill those Muslim folks in Portland. And Antifa groups feel the best way to counter them is by trying to intimidate them back. Give them a taste of their own medicine, so to speak.

    • Understand the sentiment but they are wrong. The best way to beat people who go “The left is violent so we have to kill them!” is not to show up being violent.
      The best way to beat them is to mock them. Wave dildos at them, offer them flowers, or best of all, turn your back on them.

      • Il Pagliaccio

        But it doesn’t matter to them. No matter how many peaceful protests black lives matter holds, for example, they will always think of them as a terrorist group or think they’re violent anyway. Even if they’re not. Look at how they treated the original Panthers.

        • TX Dept. of Space Tacos

          yeah ,but I think the point is, they WANT us to get mad and scream and shout..it’s the same mindset as trolling.

          Making them won’t make them go away, but it will prevent them from getting waht they want.

    • vivian

      And violence begets violence until we are living in a world where it’s all fighting all the time. I wish we could get all of Oregon to show and just point and laugh.

      • SO VERY MUCH. I suggested assless chaps and turning around
        Because I thought it would be hilarious

        • TX Dept. of Space Tacos

          that WOULD be hilarious.
          (But i don’t have a very nice ass…oh wait).

          • puredog

            BETTER YET! Get your ugly ass over here!

      • Marsupial99

        Mocking, embarrassing, and shaming can be very powerful weapons, but seriously, how do you shame a Nazi? A Trump Nazi??

      • Lark_in_the_AM

        Or not show at all.

    • Dr. Rrrrrobotnik

      Neo-Nazi groups thrive on two things: their shared sense of victimhood, and creating disorder which then justifies greater repression by their allies in government. Fighting them with fists only validates the first and enables the second.

    • Marceline

      The problem is once everyone starts throwing down, that’s when innocent bystanders get hurt.

    • Pre-Existing Condition Jack

      Nah, you have to make THEM, the Nazis, resort to violence first. It’s fine to provoke them, as long as you’re not breaking any laws yourself. Make them be the aggressors and then get the book thrown at them for assualt. Get their whole unholy group disbanded. That’s how we roll.

      • Lark_in_the_AM

        Trouble is, people get hurt, sometimes seriously, for doing the provoking. Better to ignore them wholesale. It really pisses them off if no one gives a fuck about their hate-ons, and they have to go home without having accomplished anything more violent than yelling at each other.

        • Pre-Existing Condition Jack

          I thought better of that myself.

          When I was a younger man, skinheads were all the rage. they used to come to Southside (5 pts in Birmingham) and start shit. We all knew to just wait for them to throw the first punch and claim ‘self defense’.

          Worked every time. Never got arrested, but they did. Every. Single. Time.

          Of course, the stakes are higher in this case. Still, I don’t think anyone would begrudge any Portlanders a decent nazi punch in self defense?

      • Dudleydidwrong

        I see two possible responses: totally ignoring their little demonstration or ridiculing it in ways that make fun of their hatred. I prefer the ridiculing, and there are suggestions upstream to turn their parade route into a musical cascade that drowns out their damnable dumbness with song.

        The first, ignoring, gives them no audience. The second, ridicule, can be provocative but they would have to respond to the ridicule with violence.

      • Ezio

        I can accept this.

    • puredog

      But don’t you see the danger of debasing yourself to their level? “Use your words!” as I always tell my dogs. This only plays out a few ways. You have the overwhelming numbers and beat the hell out of them, and they vow to return with greater numbers so there is more of a bloodbath later. Or they have the numbers, and you get your pious asses kicked. Or it’s a fairly fair fight, and you ALL end up with criminal records and lawyer’s fees. I am leaning to the ridiculing and silent-treatment approaches. I will NEVER look to the antifa. They’re a bunch of assholes too.

      • Lark_in_the_AM

        Amen.

    • doktorzoom

      Can’t get behind violence at all, and as others have pointed out below, it’s counter-productive. Violence is what Nazis want.

      Trivia fact: Hitler chose the red background for the Nazi party flag deliberately to anger communists, who would attack Nazis in defense of “their” color. Hurrah, instant street fight. (from the excellent 1924: The Year that Made Hitler)

  • Toomush_Inferesistance

    I suggest non-violent noise in remembrance of Manuel Noriega….

    • JustDon’tSayNATO

      I just made that noise. Now I need to light a match.

  • Agreed. Government should not be asked, ever, to step in and squash any civil right.
    That is precisely what we are fighting about.
    Portland, if you do not want Nazi Rallies in your town, stop going to them- have an anti alt right rally somewhere across town at the same time. Face paint and live music and good times. Show them that they are not important.

  • Moebym Reborn

    Speaking of free speech, there’s a photo of Kathy Griffin holding up “Trump”‘s bloody head currently causing a stir, and I’m deeply conflicted as to whether to defend the image as artistic expression or criticize it as condoning possible acts of violence against him. I’m leaning toward the latter.

    So far, the response from our side has been divided between those who think it’s gone too far and those who think it’s just a form of artistic expression that’s meant to provoke. The right is condemning it, of course.

    • Of course they are. Idk, depends what it signifies. Is it cut off? Or is it more bloody head because he is up to his neck in corruption? Is it severed?
      Me personally, I don’t like any violence in depiction or action. But, it is free speech

    • Lambsendbeds

      The last thing we need is for any kind of violence to be carried out against Trump. Then he becomes a martyr and we’re the bad guys.

    • Lambsendbeds

      When has Kathy Griffin ever had good taste? She’s really just a fame whore.

    • Persistent Tennessee Rain

      It was stupid on her part to give the nutters that much ammo to use in broad brushing all liberals as evil. Stupid.

    • UnsaltedSinner

      I see no conflict between saying the image is in poor taste and still defending her right to publish it. As for the right, well…

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/da3a721d920994a031155d416f9cd9cdef170c3aaef579a1cf432a160b30bc7f.jpg

      • Moebym Reborn

        Yeah, you’re right that there’s no conflict. But I still hold it was really goddamned stupid for her to release the image.

        • UnsaltedSinner

          We’ll certainly never hear the end of it, so yeah. But I don’t think we should accept any crap from people who refuse to be equally critical of Ted Nugent’s violent jokes or applaud Gianforte’s actual assault on a reporter.

    • Pre-Existing Condition Jack

      I saw this and I think this is tacky as well. I mean, not of a sitting president, no matter who it is. I don’t know, it’s just the optics are bad and our side is supposed to be better than that.

    • anomie

      It’s a really stupid thing for her to have done. All you have to do is imagine if some famous jerkhole on the right had done the same thing with Obama’s head during his presidency. Or even now.

      Just icky optics, as someone else said, and speaks more to her warped sense of boundaries than freedom of expression.

    • Lark_in_the_AM

      Well, considering that Our Wonkette is selling a shirt which depicts a similar theme, I’d guess we’d better be less condemning rather than more. On the other hand, I thought the shirt in poor taste also, too.

    • I think it was deeply moronic of her, but the right have no right to whine. Their side hung burning effigies of Obama.

  • Joe Beese
  • georgiaburning

    They have the right to march, we have the right to stand and boo them. Freedom of speech

    • Serai 1

      We also have the right to ignore them completely. Which would piss them off even more. The worst thing in the world to these fuckers is nobody giving a rat’s ass about their nonsense.

      Or laugh at them. Come to think of it, that would be even better. Everyone gather for their little parade and point and laugh their asses off. I know, let’s hire this guy!

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqbVbGFl2PI

  • Anna Elizabeth, Tank Grrl

    There used to be a theory – I have it referenced in the “Twilight:2000” Post-nuclear war Roleplaying game from GDW – that modern mass-media would prevent the rise of another Hitler because TV would show how ridiculous Hitler, Et al. actually looked and sounded. I think that theory has been proven false.

    But I’ll not become an authoritarian to oppose authoritarians. Let them speak.

    If events keep proceeding as they have been this year, I think I shall have a different answer for Nazis soon enough.

    • Serai 1

      Well, that was a pretty fucking stupid theory! What species did they think they were talking about?

  • Marion in Savannah
    • Serai 1

      I thought he died years ago.

    • UncleTravelingMatt

      I guess George HW can breathe a little easier now.

  • Wild Cat

    I guess True Blue Republican Racist Clint Eastwood was only pretending he hated nazis in those awful films he made 50 years ago. (His silence is deafening, no?)

  • Jenny

    Free speech is free speech. I hate nazis, but who will I know to punch if they don’t get together from time to time?

    Also, shut up Portland. Terrible shit happens in every city. The town shouldn’t come to a halt over it. Unless you’re Dallas in a ice storm, maybe.

  • Resistance Fighter Callyson
    • Serai 1

      That never gets old. (Henry Gibson as a Nazi!)

  • SKruetheratbassedarDs

    Don’t tell me, the “Rally promoters” have lined up Coulter and Yannopolous for their “keydolt address?”

  • jaspersdad

    Are there hate speech laws in the US?

    • Treg Brown ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

      Apparently not.

    • No. Incite to violence laws, but not hate speech

    • clubseal

      Not as long as there is a first amendment, and with good reason – letting people in power determine what kind of speech is hate would be pretty dangerous in a country where Republicans are in power cyclically.

    • There aren’t, but some Europe style hate speech laws should be implemented.

      • jaspersdad

        Canada has hate speech laws too.

  • GreenGoldSharpie

    This is what scares me about all of this:

    “When prompted by The Guardian to ask if he meant Republicans wouldn’t rely on city or state police, Buchal confirmed that he did. He also suggested that members of Oath Keepers and the Three Percenters—which the Anti-Defamation League describes as “anti-government extremist movement[s]”—could be suitable defenders. “There are now belligerent, unstable people who are convinced that Republicans are like Nazis,” Buchal said.”

    http://www.newsweek.com/portland-stabbing-james-buchal-militias-oath-keepers-three-percenters-617353

    • Serai 1

      Yes, hire real Nazis to protect you against the Nazis in your acid flashbacks.

    • Toomush_Inferesistance

      Have they asked the Black Panthers?…

    • I don’t think we’re saying you’re LIKE Nazis…

    • clubseal

      I wonder if that’s the same James Buchal I’ve talked to for news stories on some mining cases here in the west. I mean, it kind of fits in with his M.O.

  • FZsdaughter

    If Americans can rally themselves to do their civic duty, those idiots should be outnumbered like an Obama/Trump Inauguration photo. Counter-protest them, Portland!!

  • Beowoof14

    I kind of like it when they show up hoodless. Gives me some information on people I would believe important to avoid at all costs.

  • YoBunnyBunny

    Definitely agree. No matter how hot shit is getting right now, THIS is definitely not the right climate to casually shut down any kind of rally. As deplorable as those fuckers are, the minute anybody revokes or denies their permits and courts support that kind of decision, it will be open season on free speech. Of course, we libtards think we would be judicious towards those we disagree with, but you can damn well believe the right wingers sure as fuck will not. BLM will suddenly become “Cop Killer Rallies”; pride parades will become “anti-Christian pedophile gatherings”; immigrant rights protest will become immigrant round-up zones.

    I’m sorry, but I love the 1st Amendment too much to let it die on the hill of these hairy ass crack doofusses. They are not worth the sacrifice.

    • alpacapunchbowl

      I can’t upfist this enough. Spot on.

    • TX Dept. of Space Tacos

      r-amen.

    • Exactly right.

  • Pre-Existing Condition Jack

    I got all ticked off about this earlier and arglebargled about how Nazis have no rights, blah,blah.

    Good point with this. It’s in shitty taste and we all know why they want to rally, but nothing can be done about it legally. This is akin to having a Gun Show in Aurora right after the attack. Legal but tacky as hell.

    I guess, to anyone in the Portland area, get out and let your own voices be heard. Free speech is for you too, right? Don’t get violent, but you maybe can get angry, just not angry enough to incite anything.

    The rest of us need to exercise our rights too. Find out who the sponsors are and boycott the hell out of them. Post an publish lists of the sponsors so everyone else can boycott them. Let everyone know just how tacky this whole thing is.

    • Like the publishing of the sponsor list. Very much

    • shivaskeeper

      Also make the organizers pay for the extra security needed if they aren’t already.

      • Pre-Existing Condition Jack

        I like that idea too. Anything within the law is a good idea.

  • Treg Brown ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

    “So maybe right now is not the best time to add to the general political foment by scheduling a “Trump Free Speech Rally” for next Sunday, or to honor the killer’s hatred with a “March Against Sharia” on June 10.”

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/929e46cf639e0637246fd2680efcf4203b795015c17a910fa1587f14693c7915.jpg

    No fucking comment.

  • dorquemada

    Couldn’t the “Imminent Lawless Action” standard in Brandenberg V Ohio be used as a justification for revoking the permit? Granted, I haven’t seen the permits, but the advocacy of force that is likely to incite imminent lawless action appears to be present.
    EDIT: Stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

    • ThirdAmendmentMan

      I highly doubt it. While these Nazi meetings generally promote violence they generally are not attempting to incite imminent violence. And the government has to err on the side of protecting speech.

    • Spotts1701, Resistance Pilot

      I wouldn’t want to be the judge having to make that call…there have been plenty of rallies that seemed on the surface to advocate for the use of force to commit imminent lawless action that ended up being “mere puffery”.

  • Damn it all, you are right (in your constitutional sense at least) but – urgh. Do like some of the suggestions re as much photo stuff done peacefully etc.

    • Portland could counter protest by standing around them singing we shall over come at them.
      For hours.
      Take it in shifts if need be. Should drive them batty

      • Bobathonic

        How about one we all know: The Song That Never Ends

  • Joe Beese
    • Joe Beese

      And this is a guy who knows from pigs.

    • Khavrinen

      Pig liblez!!

    • Meccalopolis

      Ha ha! Charade you are!

    • C4TWOMAN

      But what kind of pig : domestic or wild boar?

  • Toomush_Inferesistance

    Time for a clown parade, not reasoned discourse.

  • Portia McGonagal

    I know emotions are raw (as well they should be) but I think this is the exact wrong thing to do. Instead I’d hope to see a larger, peaceful counter-protest. Line the streets / surround the venue where they’ll be silently with backs turned. This will only embolden them further and have them say “see they try to silence us”.

  • tenspd137

    I love all the more verbose points here – but my .02 -> You have the right to say offensive things and be an asshat, but it you aren’t protected from the consequences of what you say and being called out for being an asshat.

  • TX Dept. of Space Tacos

    There’s a lot of here about counter protests…which is hard to do when I’m so far away…
    I’d like to see some tech used to create (slightly) larger turnout.

    Set up a jumbotron that can display hundreds of people calling in on skype, have people walk around with laptops so buddies from far away places can make their voice heard too.

    I’m not sure if this is genius or stupid.

    I’m going with stupid.

    • C4TWOMAN

      Nah, that’s genius! Problem is no lead time to crowd source it. Damn Nazis and their flaky organizing!

  • UnsaltedSinner
    • TJ Barke

      What a fool.

    • laughingnome

      When is his autobiography “Killing Myself” due out? I’d buy that.

      • Lambsendbeds

        “Killing My Career” is more like it.

      • doktorzoom

        Please review the rules.

        — Dok Zoom, Yr Friendly Neighborhood Comments Moderator

      • puredog

        Posthumously.
        Point of order: Is it a violation of the CRFR to fantasize about someone’s taking their OWN life?

    • Spotts1701, Resistance Pilot

      Book? Nay, this be extruded book product!

    • Yr. Gma

      “This Trump guy. Whata clown! It’s killing us!” That kind of killing?

  • Marceline

    If people insist on countering this thing may I suggest something along the lines of anti-open carry protests where people show up with musical instruments and basically turn the thing into a jam session? We did that with some gun nuts and you could hear music for blocks.

    • UnsaltedSinner
    • Anna Rompage

      I like that… How about a marching band second line where the participants dress up as Santa Claus, or characters from Dr Seuss books?

    • Serai 1

      This guy should be hired for all Nazi infestations.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqbVbGFl2PI

      • MizzMazz

        And some kazoos and slide whistles. I like it!

        • ziggywiggy

          and a chorus of whoopee cushions!

        • Serai 1

          Clown costumes! Mustn’t forget the clown costumes!

    • Les Appentis De la résistance

      and lots of big obvious cameras photographing the Nazis being Nazis. I’m sure they enjoy the publicity.

    • DrBigHead

      Now THAT would be fun.

    • Dudleydidwrong

      Great idea! An assembly of accordions, bagpipes, and drums, along with harmonicas, ocarinas, and kazoos for us non-musicians all along the parade route would create enough cacophony to turn the whole thing into a farcical parody. Songs played could range from “Let There Be Peace On Earth” to the old WW II Spike Jones “Right in Der Fuhrer’s Face.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZlFBSRrSR0

      • Marceline

        I’m thinking “Springtime for Hitler” from “The Producers.”

      • Bobathonic

        Thanks for the Spike.

    • TC

      An army of vuvuzelas

  • Mpeg

    This is the worst thing to be permitted in public gatherings since Dana Milbank assaulted queues of people with hugs.
    (Anyone else remember this? I can’t find the story or the footage)~

  • Toomush_Inferesistance

    It would just be too bad if, along the street they’re rallying on, a crowd of ne’er do wells armed with piss pistols happened to be waiting….

  • Marsupial99

    This is the price of fighting for actual principles, not just slogans. Wife of Marsupial & I used to do work for the Free Speech Coalition & PAW, and we had to defend many things that we didn’t care for (and many more that we did). You know, the old “defend to the death your right…” thing.

  • clubseal

    The age old quandary, but I do side with the ACLU. Might I skirt the rules for radicals and hope these morons trip and scrape their knees and run home crying to their mothers’ converted-to-a-Nazi-den-basements? Yep.

    • Marsupial99

      I don’t think you even need votes for that!

  • laughingnome

    Remember the parade scene from Animal House. I’d like to see that happen to them.

  • FauxAntocles

    If they’re going to be damned, let them be damned for exactly what they are.

  • Hopefully their rallies will be just as successful as the one held in Peterborough, Ontario in March…

    http://www.trentarthur.ca/white-pride-rally-sparks-community-outrage-peterborough/

    3 whole people showed up!

  • Pre-Existing Condition Jack

    This has been a hell of a week and it’s only Tuesday.

    This shit is aging me too fast. I was only a hundred Sunday, now I’m a thousand. My age is growing like 45’s crowd size claims.

    Fuck Nazis, that’s me asserting my first amendment right to say Nazis are scumbags. That’s it, I suppsose.

    • puredog

      I feel like my life was recorded at 33, but is running at 45.

      • Pre-Existing Condition Jack

        I literally feel like a hundred lately. Been under the weather since Sunday. It ages you, you know?

      • Dudleydidwrong

        Wait’ll you get above 80 (age, that is). This shit starts whirling at dizzying speeds. It was bad enough already and then some fuckers elected Trump.

    • tomamitai

      I don’t give the fucking nazis a capital letter, and damn whoever programmed Firefox’s spell checker to suggest it!

      • Pre-Existing Condition Jack

        I don’t either. Firefox is racist!

        I’ll have to watch that myself. Degrade those bastards.

      • Bobathonic

        I use ALLCAPS, to solidify the association of our modern nazis with for-real from WWII we-can-all-agree-they-suck NAZIs. Tomayto, tomahto, NAZIs suck.

  • Joe Beese

    Too much Nazi in this thread.

    Instead I give you… an 11-kitten basket.

    http://i.imgur.com/B3YBGpr.jpg

    • Pre-Existing Condition Jack

      Thanks Joe! I cannot get enough palate cleanser to choke down today.

      • Bobathonic

        Palate cleanser? What for, there’s hardly any meat on those kitties at all!

        • Pre-Existing Condition Jack

          Threw me off there, thought I got the wrong one.

          Palate?
          Palette?
          Pellet?
          Palatial?

    • Jennifer R

      I could go for a kitten basket.

    • Parakeetist

      Very squuuuuuuuuuuuueeee!!

  • Martini Ambassador 🍸
    • Ω cynmac will never surrender

      Retweeted, Shared and Replied:

      Of course with Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III at the helm. John Lewis warned them but still, they persisted. #TheResistance

      • Martini Ambassador 🍸

        Thanks for that. We must continue to shine a bright light on these unredeemable fascists.

  • Les Appentis De la résistance

    Why should tax payers be on the hook to protect them. Give them a permit and if they want police protection, then they pay for the extra officers and the over time.

    • Pre-Existing Condition Jack

      That might be a good tactic, make them pay for their own security. I have no idea how that would work, though.

      • Ω cynmac will never surrender

        Like the colleges do, when you issue the permit, make them pay a fee. Not a “tax”, mind you. A “fee”. That’s what the City of Atlanta does. So the city doesn’t mind planned marches, where there are organizers to coordinate with.
        I went to a seminar at the Civil Rights Museum before the Womens’ March, where the Asst Police Chief, the Fire Chief, a media representative and the lawyers for the museum had a panel discussion. They even provided a box lunch. It was very informative and there were even handouts!
        The March was held from the Museum to the State Capitol. The Speaker’s Stand was packed, so some people went to the Georgia State University buildings to meet up. This was before Indivisible really got going, but a Wonketteer came down from Athens with a friend and their husbands. They picked me up from my house and I was their guide for the rapid transit trains. They had signs and I had my totem, aN Atlanta Falcons flag, pink of course, that said “RISE UP”. People brought their kids and the cops were just hanging out, drinking cokes and interacting with the crowd. The only weird thing was two snipers on top of the Gold Dome. And the only counter protesters that showed up were some MRAs with anti-abortion signs. They stayed off to the side and were chided for being at the Womens’ march with NO WOMEN. They slinked off before the march even got started.

        I’m not naming the Wonketteer because I’m not sure she’d want it out or the pictures. But it was good times, good times.

    • Stulexington

      Conservative snowflakes worried a liberal mob will hurl insults with extreme prejudiced so need the taxpayers to give them a safe space.

    • Dudleydidwrong

      If the tables are turned and groups with whom I agree, and with whom I might march, have to pay for their security it might make it difficult to afford any demonstrations or marches. The sentiment, Les Appentis, is a good one. The reality is, I think, difficult to work out.

  • Yr. Gma

    *sigh*

  • anomie

    DokZoom is right; free speech in our country means there must be a marketplace of ideas where the best ones win.

    best thing would be if the assholes have the rally and hardly anyone shows up and there’s no media coverage.

    happened once w/ a KKK rally here in NC.. the ACLU (rightly) defended their constitutional rights, but regular people decided to turn it into a non-event and the white sheeters were so sad and lonely.

  • ariel_gee_398

    Speech is allowed, but weapons are not, one assumes, so shouldn’t everyone going in to goosestep in time to the racist shouting be subjected to a good old fashioned stop n frisk?

    • Ω cynmac will never surrender

      Oregon is also an open-carry state, but cities and counties are free to limit public possession of loaded firearms by individuals who do not have an Oregon Concealed Handgun License.

      • ZangoCrudmonger

        I don’t know for sure, but I don’t think you can’t have loaded open carry in Portland, they have to be unloaded. Schrunk plaza, being the federales’, may not allow anything.

        “A man who pulled out and pointed his gun at “Don’t Shoot Portland” and
        “Black Lives Matter” protesters last summer was sentenced Wednesday to
        40 days in jail and banned from possessing guns. ”

        http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2017/05/man_who_pointed_gun_at_dont_sh.html

      • ariel_gee_398

        They can search for concealed knives, too. Seems like a reasonable precaution to me.

        • Ω cynmac will never surrender

          Yeah, here in Atlanta, you can put a sign on the door of your business, or church, or restaurant, saying “No Weapons”. Almost everywhere inside our Perimeter has. So when ammosexuals come into town, all they can do is walk around looking pathetic. No one says a word.

  • baconzgood

    Trump free, speech rally.

    Bacon endorses that….oh. nevermind.

  • Stulexington

    I feel like there’s an “Incitement to riot” exception that may be able to be played here.

    • alpacapunchbowl

      Not until they explicitly incite a riot, unfortunately. It sucks, but the Constitution and SCOTUS precedent say so.

  • baconzgood
  • Martini Ambassador 🍸

    Here are some other Americans exercising their free speech rights, though, to amusing results:
    https://twitter.com/yashar/status/869617081959972864

    • jesterpunk
    • Unmutual Tetsu Kaba

      Is he photographing them with his cell phone?

      • Martini Ambassador 🍸

        Looks like it. Documenting his own cowardice seems a weird choice.

        • Unmutual Tetsu Kaba

          Unless he’s trying to identify them and then try to get them fired like that congresscritter on the east coast.

          • Martini Ambassador 🍸

            Hmm, yeah. That probably is more likely with a vindictive little prick like Issa.

    • Dudleydidwrong

      Where is that bird with diarrhea when you need him?

    • Toomush_Inferesistance

      I want to know – was the piece of cake he gave his one supporter, the best chocolate cake ever?…

  • Red Bird Ω

    I understand what you’re saying but I don’t agree. The truth is that the alternative right people will get to promote their white supremacist hatred with little interference from the police. But a peaceful protest by black people would be surrounded by a quasi military police force. So it’s not an equivalent situation. They have the right to demonstrate if they want but they are by no means at risk of being silenced by being asked to postpone their event. On the other hand black protesters are low key intimidated while protesting.

    • tomamitai

      Ummm, I guess having police merely point their weapons at you is a lower key form of intimidation than having them actually shoot you, but it’s not the phrase I would have used to describe the situation.

      • Jennifer R

        At this point, I am just asking that the Nazis get treated like BLM does.

        • C4TWOMAN

          IKR? This was the same thing with (early) OWS: the Tea Party was swanning around with open carry idiocy and hardly got their hands smacked, but OWS was pepper sprayed into oblivion.

          This just supports the alt-right’s belief in a silent majority rooting for them.

        • ZangoCrudmonger

          IIRC, these groups marched over on SE 82 about a month ago. The neighborhood parade was cancelled b/c it was heard the nazis were coming, too. The antifa said they were coming then, so the Asian, Mexicans etc of the family groups said “fuck it all” and cancelled.

          The nazis still showed up, as did police and some counterprotestors. The po-po got the nazis a couple of tri-met buses, gratis of course, and drove them out of there.

          So, yes, they get treated very different than the BLM movement.

    • Pre-Existing Condition Jack

      I don’t agree either, but it’s the law. I don’t agree with a lot of laws, doesn’t change anything. I’d love more than anything right now to go outside the apartment, light up a joint and watch the rain fall, but I’d get arrested because this is Mississippi and they don’t tolerate pot around here.

      Don’t have to like it. Can hate the fuck out of it, but it’s just reality.

    • anomie

      the disparity in police behavior doesn’t change each groups’ basic First Amendment rights.

      but you do bring up a good point about what we need to work at now – equal treatment by the police for each group when they assemble & express their constitutionally protected viewpoints.

  • alpacapunchbowl

    The government cannot practice prior restraint of free speech, odious as that speech may be. It ain’t pretty, but it’s the only way to protect our own rights of free speech and assembly.

    • Skwerl the Impeachanator!

      Just remember that hate speech is not protected.

      • That’s going to be the interesting aspect.

      • ThirdAmendmentMan

        Ummm in the US hate speech is absolutely protected.

        • anon_the_great

          And that’s a remnant of slavocracy

          • Pre-Existing Condition Jack

            Yeah, like the archaic electoral college.

      • alpacapunchbowl

        Whether something is hate speech or not (even if it’s patently clear to those of us with half a brain that something is hate speech) is a matter for the court to decide. Which of necessity happens after said hate speech has been uttered.

        • anon_the_great

          Rather be acquitted by 12 than committed by 6

        • Stulexington

          If it’s found to be hate speech, do they have to pony up for the cost of the police escort they want to hide behind?

          • alpacapunchbowl

            Possibly, if local ordinances are in place providing a borough/town/city/etc the ability to seek reimbursement.

      • Chris

        But it has to actually be speech before it can be hate speech. Sucks, but there you have it.

        Edit: Sadly hate speech is protected. What isn’t protected is incitement to violence. That is actionable.

    • tomamitai

      So we wait until they carry out another holocaust, and THEN hang them?

      • Jennifer R

        People have a Holy Jesus From On High Constitutional Right to foment violence and discrimination based on immutable characteristics dontcha know. Most sacred and high holy right we have.

        • C4TWOMAN

          NEVER AGAIN!… until the next time because we can’t seem to figure out how fascism werks in time to stop it.

          • Jennifer R

            The time to act was in the 80s when Modern American Fascism was in it’s infancy. Now it’s a drunk 30 something living in it’s mother’s basement brewing meth and waving guns at the black neighbors.

        • Jukesgrrl

          They have a right to SPEAK about the way they think government should work, no matter how abhorrent. They do not have the right to participate in violence.

          • Jennifer R

            Again, respectfully, I feel that all the interpretations that allow for people to foment violence and discrimination against people based on immutable characteristics are wrong, and we are a lesser country and people for allowing them.

          • Bobathonic

            Would we be a better country if the government policed speech based on viewpoint? Consider who holds power right. fucking. now.

          • Jennifer R

            It would be better if the government policed speech based on if it attacks people based on skin color or other inherent facets of their being yes.

          • thixotropic jerk

            What if the speech was done in an ironic/satirical way?

          • Jennifer R

            Truly satirical or ironic commentary denigrates the opposite of the superficial topic.

          • thixotropic jerk

            Ok I think I understand what you’re saying…my point is how do you conclusively determine that such speech is satire? You could run the risk of banning satire/mockery of something that you are opposed to thereby removing one of our greatest tools of free speech.

          • Jennifer R

            That runs into the sticky wicket yes, but I am still willing to bet that it’s a better situation than what we have now.

          • Bobathonic

            I sure don’t want the government banning speech based on content. There’s way too much potential for mischief.

          • thixotropic jerk

            “How do you know it’s obscenity/pornography and not art?”
            “I know it when I see it.”
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it

      • alpacapunchbowl

        No, once they actually incite violence then we prosecute them.

    • puredog

      Almost a tweetable summation.

      • alpacapunchbowl

        I don’t tweet, but if you like it you can have it

        • puredog

          Me neither

    • baconzgood

      You’re right. Free speech is free soeech. It’s just when one says “the counter protesters” are stopping our free speech.

      The permit (as long as they don’t carry offensive/pornographic images) should be allowed even if it blocks traffic.

      “Having a little bit of free speech is like being a little bit pregnant”
      -Baconzgood-

  • Jennifer R

    fuck, this isn’t going to be the open thread is it?

    • Pre-Existing Condition Jack

      Hell, I hope not!

    • arglebargle

      More of an open wound.

    • BadKitty904

      When was the last time we had Nice Time thread? Pre-January 20th?

      • Jennifer R

        At least most of them don’t get interrupted every ten posts by a topic lots of us have Strong Feelings on.

        • C4TWOMAN

          This is why I try to limit/pace my self in real open threads. I know it can go south fast, especially if one has been snarking all day….

          • BadKitty904

            I would fly into a pointless and tangential rage about this, but I’m too sleepy. ;0)

        • Spotts1701, Resistance Pilot

          Though it is giving me much practice in pausing, thinking, then writing.

          • Pre-Existing Condition Jack

            The prevailing logic is “think twice, post once”, though I’ve never gotten the hang of it. For me, it’s “pound on the keyboard angrily, hit send, regret”.

          • Jennifer R

            I can tell you that it’s much more effective to skip the last step.

          • Spotts1701, Resistance Pilot

            “Some things are better left unsaid…which I generally realize *after* the words have come out of my mouth.”

      • Jukesgrrl

        Nice times have been canceled for the foreseeable future, sad to say.

        • BadKitty904

          Ugh.

  • BadKitty904

    “Shrunk Plaza”?

  • whitroth

    Early nineties, the KKK set up a rally in Austin. They were allowed… as was the counter-protest. There were a *lot* of cops (and I think the KKK a) had to pay something and b) there were a lot less of them than there were of us). Took my son, around 9 or so at the time, We smiled at a car with a couple of cops protecting all. One white female cop, and one black female cop. They smiled back at us.

    • Stulexington

      So we can has a bunch of blah cops eyeballing the speechmakers the whole time as their escort?

      • Spotts1701, Resistance Pilot

        No law against that. Get every non-white or non-male officer the department has and have them work the detail.

        • puredog

          It’s Portland. You’d want more than a half-dozen.

          • ahughes798

            Isn’t Portland the whitest city in the US?

  • Jesse

    Portland needs bagpipes.

    https://youtu.be/JwLaDzKFiBY

    • Chris

      More bagpipes!

      • BadKitty904

        I agree. I like bagpipes.

        • Miss Dill

          I do too…just love them and they often make me cry.

    • dorquemada
      • MizzMazz

        That guy is awesome.

      • Jennifer R

        Doofcycle?

        • dorquemada

          Unipiper

      • tomamitai

        Flaming bagpipes on a unicycle? Well SOMEBODY sure likes showing off!

        • puredog

          Darth. It’s a Darth thang.

      • Pirate Jenny

        Maybe we could also get the Last Regiment of Syncopated Drummers to follow them around. LRSD is *loud*.

        • Erala Contratista

          Also accordians, too!

          • Pirate Jenny

            No shortage of those in Portland!

    • tomamitai

      That’s ok with me, so long as they don’t play “Amazing Grace”, which always reminds me of Spock’s funeral scene in “Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan” and makes my eyes water with “allergies”.

    • ahughes798

      OOo! Yeah…they could have fife and drums, a couple of “second lines”, a drum and bugle corps. Drown the fuckers out! There are lots of musicians in Portland.

    • Love bagpipes.

  • SayItWithWookies

    Even the fucking Nazis who would take away others’ rights have rights – bless their genocidal repugnant little excuses for hearts.

  • TheGrandWazoo2

    Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time.
    http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/pthththt.gif

    • Jennifer R

      OH man, Kenzer co really mistimed coming out with a non collectible card game. If they had waited a couple years they woulda had a winner.

  • Chris

    As badly as I feel about it, they should allow it to go on with a large enough police presence.
    As someone down thread mentioned, find out who is sponsoring it and advertise the heck out them so they can be boycotted.

    • Pre-Existing Condition Jack

      Yeah, print up a list of sponsors, there have to be sponsors, and boycott them.

  • anon_the_great

    So funny. Armed psychopaths roam our nation unimpeded murdering Americans and the ACLU tut tuts about going after these assholes.

    • Spotts1701, Resistance Pilot

      Uh, yeah, because the law still protects assholes even when they behave like assholes.

      • Jennifer R

        I would love to be one of the jurors from A Time To Kill.

        • Spotts1701, Resistance Pilot

          I am not inclined to disagree on this point.

    • Jukesgrrl

      What do you mean by “tut tutting”? The ACLU has done more than any organization to stand up for the rights of people being discriminated against by the Trump administration. They have lawsuits ready to file every time Bannon and Miller pull one of their stunts called an Executive Order. ACLU lawyers rushed to help people trying to enter the country who were impeded by the illegal bans. Do you expect the ACLU to advocate vigilantism? As Dok pointed out, even assholes have rights. Whether or not it’s pleasant, it’s the ACLU’s job to protect those rights just as stringently as they protect the rights of free-thinking people who abhor discrimination. Their job is to make sure everyone’s Constitutional rights are protected. Even psychopaths.

    • Marsupial99

      Going after them? No. Silencing them? Yes. Big difference.

    • Bobathonic

      Think of it as broken windows policing.

  • Cheesus Crust _ Rebel

    I feel like there’s a line…. when you espouse ideology that was resoundingly defeated in not just 1, but two, different wars – you don’t get to say those things anymore. The world has decided that your viewpoint is garbage and a lot of people died to defeat it.

    • ken_kukec

      If you believe in a test — whether losing-two-wars or otherwise — then you don’t believe in free expression. Fair-weather free speech is what the right wing does, too.

      • Cheesus Crust _ Rebel

        That’s a ridiculous argument. There’s already a test: I can’t walk up to someone with a weapon and say, “I’ll kill you”. That’s called a threat, it’s a crime. Hell, doing it without a weapon is iffy in certain circumstances. I can’t yell “fire” in a crowded theater, I can’t utter the words “hijack” on a flight… Saying that every last bit of speech is good and should be protected is nonsensical and calling it “fair weather” is absurd.

        What these people are doing is akin to threatening entire swaths of people. And considering that these types of groups have a history of violence, telling them they aren’t going to be given a public platform, at taxpayer expense, to shout those threats, doesn’t stifle free speech, it prevents the incitement of terror and violence.

        Their ideology is garbage, it was defeated. Millions of people gave their lives in that struggle, over centuries and through many wars. And this crap argument about how more speech is the answer to bad speech doesn’t do a lot of good for the people who are killed and terrorized because we allow these jackasses a public forum. You aren’t going to stop them from grabbing a weapon and murdering people with your microphone and some well meaning words, even if you yell louder.

        • ken_kukec

          You’re analytically confused. A “threat” is a crime only where it constitutes an assault — i.e., where it causes an apprehension of imminent bodily harm because of the speaker’s apparent, present ability to bring that harm about. Similarly, with respect to your “fire” and “hijack” examples, the speaking of those words can be punished as a crime only under circumstances where they create an imminent danger of disturbing the peace (thus placing others in harm’s way).

          Outside of such circumstances, we Americans battle bad ideas and bad words with good ideas and good words, not with censorship. That’s settled law under the First Amendment. Has been since the US Supreme Court decided Brandenburg v. Ohio.

  • La forza del resistino

    Knowing Portland’s weather, let nature rain upon the nazi’s parade.

    • anon_the_great

      Tell that to the children of the dead father. Yeah, not so snarky is it.

      • La forza del resistino

        Huh? The comment was to say that those kids, you and I have to swallow the fact that even despicable people have 1A rights to assemble, but maybe a higher power can at least make them uncomfortable.

  • MizzMazz

    Someone in another thread had an idea I like. Moon the Nazis, and that way all the media attention will be on people with their butts out, and not the stupid Nazis. Mockery is still one of our greatest weapons. Clown suits are also good.

    • Jennifer R

      Just wait until one of the nazis brings their kid and then you get put on a sex crime list.

      • Marsupial99

        You’re saying it’s all fun & games until some kid gets one in their eye?

      • Pre-Existing Condition Jack

        You just know these nazis will be stupid enough to drag their kids along to this thing. Bunch of racist idiots.

        • Pilotshark

          well they have to have some type of shield to hide behind.

      • MizzMazz

        Good point. Above I suggested plastic joke-store butts. I dunno; maybe the clown suits would be better. Just mockery.

      • pstockholm

        OT but the fact that a bare butt would get someone on such a list is probably indicative of the really deep level of fuckedupedness we are dealing with.

    • Al Swearengen

      Yeah, have a Juggalo convention at the same time (they don’t like Nazis any more than we do). A few thousand hatchet-wielding clowns might come in handy.

      • Jennifer R

        Ya know, that really truly isn’t a bad idea.
        Juggalos already scare the police enough that cops won’t show up.

      • I didn’t know that Juggalos hate Nazis. Talk about a useful fact!

    • Pre-Existing Condition Jack

      Nice in theory, but in practice its still against the law. I hate this so much. Damnit!

      • Jennifer R

        When I was like 4 or 5, my brother who was like 13 or so got into some sort of scuffle with a neighbor kid. The kid came down and mooned everyone through the glass door, and I was front and center. It took about three weeks until the prosecutor decided not to try him for a sex crime.

        • Pre-Existing Condition Jack

          Too risky. Hate that we have to be so. . . Censored, but it is what it is. Cops hate us and are itching to throw the book at us. Hell, I just depressed myself even more.

      • MizzMazz

        What if they use plastic joke-store butts?

      • ZangoCrudmonger

        Nudity as expression is heavily protected by Oregon, thus the stripper poles in our taverns. Mooning is probably tipped.

        • Pre-Existing Condition Jack

          Oooh! Did not know that. Well, if it’s legal in that neck of the woods, then have at it!

    • puredog

      There would not be enough pixels.

      • MizzMazz

        There’s always enough pixels…maybe not for my butt though.

    • Ill-Advised

      Not unprecedented. This IS the city of the annual Naked Zoom Ride. (Naked cyclists riding down a highway together.)

  • baconzgood

    Now I’m still trying to figure out this “Trump free speech rally”

    Is it:

    A) the rally will be Trump free?
    2) rhetoric in this rally is for Trump and there will be no free speech?
    ♤) that rhetoric rally will only be about people speaking freely for Trump?

    Most important will I be able to find a macrame beer can hat there? That seems like a place that you can buy one. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ae3427d7c5127147d5c05c2e3854f776a7fbaf11a6f8f08699c0bc6e7c84e695.jpg

    • Pre-Existing Condition Jack

      That hat taste as great is its name?

      • dorquemada

        Probably not, but you can buy 12 of them for $2.99

        • JustDon’tSayNATO

          In my college days, this was ‘quarters beers’. We bounced quarters, drank if we missed. Game’s over when the case is empty and the Piggly Wiggly is closed for the night.

      • Toomush_Inferesistance

        The Beer that Made Milwaukee Nauseous?….

        • Pre-Existing Condition Jack

          Pretty much. I just vaguely remember the old jingle and I think it was “Old Milwaukee tastes as great as its name”?

          • thixotropic jerk

            Good as slug bait tho!

    • irishdave3

      Free Mala Norma from the Tower of Trump…and shit.

      • irishdave3

        also. too.when you Trump(brand) speech do y’awl have to pay a fee or royalty or…shit?

  • Teto85

    This is the price we pay for freedom of speech. I am willing to defend the rights of people to say things that I am willing to die to keep from happening. If we do not defend their right to say such things then the First Amendment means diddly. But that does not mean we have to agree with what they say, nor should we allow such things they talk about come to pass. My wife’s maternal grandfather and both of my grandfathers fought against the nazis in one way or another, in fact her grandfather was one of Mr Churchill’s “Few.” My grandfathers were both in the Army, one a tanker and the other navigator in bombers. They will all tell you that they fought for the rights of everyone to have freedom of speech, among other freedoms. But also the right to punch out those who would espouse taking away such freedoms. The First Amendment allows everyone to be a jackass. And we have the right to not like what they say and to protest against what they are saying.

  • thixotropic jerk
    • Toomush_Inferesistance

      APANITF!…

    • Jennifer R

      You cut out the best part!

      • thixotropic jerk

        I left it to your fervent imaginationing!

  • Bitter Scribe

    I wish those guys would go to Riyadh and “march against Sharia.”

  • Debbie the Unpaid Protester

    Several years ago, the KKK got a permit to rally in front of the MN state capitol. There was counter protest, which I felt fed right into what those assholes want (they literally looked like they are nourished by the shouting directed towards them).
    I found myself wishing that the counter protestors would show up, sure, but then just turn their backs on those nitwits.
    I remember a NC KKK/white power rallies mocked by clowns, which I thought was brilliant (nothing deflates self-importance as well as a good mocking):
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2232138/KKK-marchers-outnumbered-5-1-anti-racist-protesters-dressed-clowns.html

    • Spotts1701, Resistance Pilot

      That’s what those bikers do when the WBC picket soldier’s funerals. All those folks in their leathers just standing there in stony silence while they carry on.

    • Bobathonic

      That’s what this rally is all about – pissing off someone else. Much like the administration.

    • irishdave3

      The K-k-Klan “ally” outside the Rainbow Convention n Raleigh featured much pointing and laughing and David Duke and his pals….More Black City Cops there than Klansmen, even counting the Klan babies

  • Peripatetic Poltroon

    “…the sweet old-fashioned notion that the best way to combat offensive speech is with more speech.”
    I used to believe that too, until fairly recently. Now what with that offensive speech emanating from a fact-free alternate reality, I dunno. Maybe barbeque?

    • Would you want the internet to be censored as well? That’s where most of the misinformation is spread. I like the idea of drowning out their voices.

      • Serai 1

        The biggest problems with the internet all lie in the unbridled anonymous you-can-say-any-bullshit-you-like unregulated aspect of it. It was a HUGE mistake from the very beginning. We do not have unbridled freedom of speech in this country – our freedom has limits, AS IT SHOULD. The internet should be the same.

        • So you would welcome censorship on the internet?
          Who will be the censors?

          • puredog

            Only of the points of view that obviously deserve to be censored, silly.

          • Stupid me…😕

          • Bobathonic

            Okay, I laughed.

          • Serai 1

            It’s WAY too fucking late for that. The only way would be to scrap the entire idea and start over. THIS time with some actual fucking BRAINS behind the project, instead of these dipshit naive tech types who don’t seem to know ANYTHING about humanity other than their stupid utopian adolescent fantasies about “bringing everyone together” and all that happy horseshit.

          • Ill-Advised

            The Wonketteriat?

        • Bobathonic

          The internet unfortunately made confirmation bias available to the masses.

          • Serai 1

            Yep. I don’t know how reparable the damage that’s it’s done to our society is. It may be irreversible.

      • Peripatetic Poltroon

        I didn’t say anything about censorship.

        • So what would be your approach?

          • Peripatetic Poltroon

            Beats me. Experiments have shown the innate nature of intransigence. They haven’t yet shown a way around it. Personally, I think things are going to get really, really bad, and really, really violent. But, people have always said I’m an optimist :)

          • I actually agree with you, and think maybe you and I are most likely realists.

          • Ill-Advised

            Hah, this shook a memory loose. There was a study done that said muggings dropped when classical music was played in the streets. If I could come up with something that glued bagpipes to Beethoven, that might be a place to start. Mount Hood Community College hosts the annual Scottish Games, they’d know pipers.

          • Peripatetic Poltroon

            Interesting. I hadn’t heard that one. However, I’m pretty sure crime would skyrocket of you started playing bagpipe music in the streets. I know *I’d* kill someone :)

  • Notreelyhelping

    Personal opinion: you have to go with the First Amendment, particularly when it’s under threat from the Executive Branch. If, for public safety reasons, it falls too close to the murders, then a permit should be issued for a later date.

    This situation is extremely difficult, and there’s a lot of heartbroken, angry people in Portland right now who’d like to get a punch in. (And before someone jumps in with “what about how their families and friends feel?” let me add that I knew one of the guys who died.)

    What we need is…singers. We need a counter-demonstration with a shit-ton of singers ready to blow their nodes by singing as loud as they can and drowning the Nazis out…peacefully. Civil rights songs and labor songs often crop up. Even the Beatles would do. But, just for surrealism’s sake, I think sea shanties would be perfect.

    • Notreelyhelping

      Addendum: Doors songs. Three-hundred people singing “People are Strange” at the top of their lungs might lead to confused nazi wilt.

      • Ωbjectifier

        Accordions and banjos. If that don’t run ’em off, nothing will.

        • LucindathePook

          Bagpipes. Which I love.

        • Notreelyhelping

          A bagpipe player once shut down a hate preacher in Portland; it was rather marvelous. Of course, some battery-powered amps and a couple of electric guitars….

          • A single man stopped tanks in China. And all he did was stand there and yell at them to stop it.
            Methinks some accordions, banjos and a bagpipe player might just be weird enough for PDX

    • Yr. Gma

      Borrow a page from Estonia (who sang their way to independent rule.)
      http://globalcomment.com/song-resistance-strange-story-estonias-singing-revolution/

      • Notreelyhelping

        Thanks! I sent this on to Ms. Notreelyhelping, who’s the vocalist in the household.

    • How about just ignoring them? Don’t show up at all. Let them do their thing while you go about your daily business….. Read about it in the Portland Oregonian the next day.

      • Notreelyhelping

        That’s actually what I will do probably, but I can’t speak for my fellow PDXers.

    • Ill-Advised

      Hm. There are quite a few VERY talented choirmasters in Beaverton and Portland. The Portland Gay Men’s Choir can boom a room the size of a building.

      It’s a little close to pull off a coordinated effort. Wonder how much notice there was of this thing…I’ve been heads down in some of my own stuff, I should pay more attention.

  • SecludedCompound

    Our community will protect our community, as it always has to.

  • Mavenmaven

    Is trump or Bannon speaking at this rally?

    • javadavis

      I hope not – isn’t it supposed to be “Trump free”? It’s right in the name!

  • OrG

    Fuck these assholes! They are never welcome in Portland,and especially not now.

  • Lee Hillhouse

    When Ronald Reagan decided that mental illness is not a real thing and convinced many many people….I knew this would be the future. Slash and dash…

    …and now with Trumpty Dumpty, it will only get worse.

    The NRA had a rally in Sandy Hook within a month of the killings of all those little bitties.

    Humans suck much.

    • baconzgood

      Ketchup was a vegetable under his administration too.

      • irishdave3

        So burnt steak with Catsup is a well-rounded meal? Try the Meatloaf!

    • Yr. Gma

      It wasn’t so much that Reagan thought it wasn’t a thing but more that he didn’t want to pay for taking care of them.

      • Release mentally ill people with no recourse. Make people afraid to go outside. Make them feel safe by selling them guns and a bill of sale about stronger police forces.
        Rinse and repeat.

  • PixieThis

    I say let them talk and then we know who they are. But also, I truly agree that we need to allow people to speak (with their mouths and not sticks and stones!)

  • Vagenda and Pee-ara

    I interpreted “Trump free speech rally” to mean “speech free of Trump.” I was highly enthusiastic about this group, until I figured out that the rally SUPPORTED Trump!

    • AnnieGetYerFun

      The Trump-Free Speech Rally should be held directly across the street.

      • Vagenda and Pee-ara

        That would be hilarious, and lead to a lot of hijinx, since people would get confused about which rally they were supposed to be at.

        In Hollywood people from opposite rallies would start falling in love…and love would kick hate’s ass. Emma Stone is the girl who hates Trump, Ryan Gosling is the boy who loves Trump…until one crazy night in Portland.

        • nightmoth

          That’s not a rom-com: that’s sci-fi.

  • AnnieGetYerFun

    You know, I say let them speak and let them march. And then quietly and peacefully record them and put their faces up online so that everyone sees who they are.

    • Stulexington

      All the while doing corporate e-mail bombardment on any company who so much as hints at supporting them.

  • quantum mechanic

    Why we lefties always fall for a bunch of POES stepping on their dicks in public and show up to protest thus giving them the media coverage they crave is beyond me.

  • data_ninja

    Back in 2005, the city of Toledo in NW Ohio had a riot that was essentially started by the neo nazis marching. I’ve read a few accounts of what went on, from why the rally was organized (guy complaining about neighborhood vandalism) to what triggered the rioting (multiple accounts, but the cops protecting the neo nazis was mentioned mostly). We do know that a lot of the neo nazis at the rally were from out of town (and out of state), as well as some of the counter protests. After all was said and done, there were people injured, property damage, and the mayor at the time saying that it was exactly what the neo nazis wanted (which is probably true).

    The rally was officially cancelled because of the violence, and it was later rescheduled about two months later. Things went smoother overall, in that rioting didn’t break out. Ten years later in 2015, the neo nazis held yet another rally, hoping to stoke the racial tensions that were growing. The city did better that time, with minimum arrests and no rioting.

    In short, these assholes can rally all they want; don’t give them the satisfaction by getting violent with them. They’re usually not from the area, and have no problem stirring up trouble and causing damage.

    • Ill-Advised

      To say nothing of the vigilant idiots who will show up with weapons to shoot themselves some libtards for messin’ with them, and then expect to live it up in one of the brew pubs. Serve ’em right if the bars closed while the rally was on.

  • OrdinaryJoe

    I don’t know where I come out on this. First Amendment issues are there maybe. To me, these assholes are going to come and do their idiot fascist preening over something that involves the violent deaths of two men. This is not your ordinary situation of two sides yelling at each other over different positions on politics. To me this is right there in the “yelling fire in a crowded theater” realm.

    • teele

      No one has to be there. It will only add to their sense of martyrdom if massive crowds of pissed off people surround them. Let them have their teeny-peeny meet-up; getting outraged is only going to inspire the unemployed creeps from other parts of the country to carpool to Portland and create a riot situation. That benefits no one but them.

  • Persistent Demme

    Lawyer-daughter lives there, and attended a vigil.
    She also works for the ACLU.
    I’ll have to ask her about this.
    In the meantime, here’s an idea:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs4P1kKK-5k

    • Vel Venturi

      Thanks for posting this, I needed it. Truly a gift.

      • Persistent Demme

        You’re so welcome.
        This is one of my favorites!
        I love how creative this idea is!

  • mrFawkes

    As a former Portlander, whose boots have marched many miles on Porland’s streets in all variaties of protest, I say put out an open call for all sad trombone players and have them gather at the Nazi’s assemblage and play, play, play.

  • Spotts1701, Resistance Pilot

    Oh, and Mr. Wonderful had his day in court.
    https://twitter.com/CNN/status/869681582075981825

    • Stulexington

      patriotically attacking and killing 2 people expressing their right to free speech in the name of free speech.

    • Juan de Fuca

      Actually, we’re the ones who get to stay. You’re the one who has to leave now, aren’t ya? And may we all remember the names – Taliesin Myrddin, Ricky Best and Micah Fletcher long after we’ve forgotten yours.

    • nightmoth

      little eyes close together, very asymmetrical features: fetal alcohol syndrome?

    • Stabbing people is not speech so much as murder

  • dorquemada
    • irishdave3

      But will there be milkshakes?

  • CripesAmighty

    Agreed. And from the perspective of prurient self-interest, one must admit that the current inventory of Memeable Moron Material is running a bit thin and threadbare, and these folks could perform a public service by providing a much needed refresh.

  • Ω cynmac will never surrender

    Ewww. Just saw a Liberty University ad. And the NFL player that won Dancing with the Stars, graduated from Liberty University and he’s black. Wot?

  • Stulexington

    Throw a giant outdoor party just down the street, so they can hear it but not quite see it. Too bad you’re doing your hate speech thing and can’t attend this killer party going on over here that sucked away the audience you were hoping for, have fun talking to an empty street and cops who really want to be somewhere else.

    • Lefty Wright

      That is probably the best idea. Deny them an audience and push the media to cover the party. Except for maybe one camera showing these idiots marching down a deserted street.

    • nightmoth

      -a racially diverse, very loud, dance party with great throw-down beats and everybody dancing with each other —I like this idea!

      • Ill-Advised

        “Call it out, around the world,
        Are you ready for a brand new beat?
        Summer’s here, and the time is right
        For dancin’ in the streets…”

        I wish! Hm. Just how well do I know that branch manager at Bose…? Probably not well enough.

    • teele

      I like this idea a lot. Rub it in that they are NEVER gonna hang with the cool kids, that they will ALWAYS be held in contempt by normal people, and let them watch their pathetic little selves on the internet, raging at thin air and being ignored by decent people.

      • Stulexington

        Bonus points if you make money off of counter-protesting their little get together.

  • weejee

    yelling “theater!” in a crowded fire

    Way past the cheap seats with that one Dok. Clear out-of-the-par.

  • NotALiar

    I dont believe in free speech when that speech is advocating the genocide of a group of people.

    • Ill-Advised

      There’s nothing free about speech that costs lives.

  • SisterArtemis

    Thanks for writing about this, Dok. It’s with a heavy heart that I must support their right to gather and speak and generally behave like assholes, for all the reasons you walked us through. But it’s also with a heavy-AND-staunch heart that I fully support and even encourage anyone who has a mind to counter protest, also peacefully, in order to call attention to these assholes. I recommend humor, ridicule, music, general loudness, and exposing eXACTly who in our communities advocates racism, bigotry and generally being a big fucking jerk, even when they don’t actually inspire or commit physical violence.

  • Cat Cafe for the Investigation

    As a far-left faded Berkeley hippie, but also the daughter and granddaughter of concentration camp survivors, who lost our entire extended families on both sides to brutal cruelty, starvation, and cold-blooded murder, I don’t give a shit about Nazi Free Speech.

    When you slaughter millions of innocent men, women, and children, force 5-year-old children to dig graves in desolate forests and then machine-gun them into them, throw people alive into ovens, hang them in the public square as a “warning,” starve people in ghettos, kill people who even give them a loaf of bread, and usher millions of people, duplicitously, into gas chambers and kill them in cold blood for no reason other than their religion, I DON’T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT YOUR FREE SPEECH.

    You have fucking ABDICATED your right to free speech. They are murderers, who stand for murder, and as we have just seen, WILL murder gleefully if someone tries to stop them. Our instinct to “do good” and our ingenuous parsing of the meaning of “free speech” is going to be our downfall. THEY ARE VIOLENT CRIMINALS who partook in VIOLENT CRIMES, mass murder, genocide, systematic slaughter, and their followers AGREE WITH THEM. Why is this a question? Is it because the scale of their murder is too large to be comprehensible? Is it because their despicable acts of cruelty are too brutal to be understood?

    Germany doesn’t have any fucking lily-livered “philosophical questions” about this. Anyone whose parents or grandparents lived this, has no illusions about this.

    • NotALiar

      I’m afraid if the Battle of Cable street happened today we would have a large group saying Mosley has a right to march and we need to behave. I love Wonkette but I have to disagree with my favorite writer. Which is OK because after all, we are not fascists.

      • Cat Cafe for the Investigation

        Or Kristallnacht. They don’t have a right. But yes, after all, we are not communists.

  • Incoming Ham

    Agreed. In addition to it being their right, it’s productive for the general public to hear their batshit hate messages to understand how dangerous they are.

    • Suttree

      There are actually normal Republicans out there. I just hope that they can see what their party has turned into. They are enough to swing elections.

      • There are actually normal Republicans out there.

        Nope, don’t think so.

      • Incoming Ham

        Exactly that – they need to see it front and center and in their faces to understand this isn’t funny or some little anomaly. This is serious shit and they need to vote it away.

        • Suttree

          I still do not expect much of them, when we go to war with (insert boogeyman here) in October of 2017 or 2019 or tomorrow..

      • ken_kukec

        Republicans have been sitting in this slowly heating pot with their batrachian fellow travelers since Nixon lured the George Wallace voters with his “Southern Strategy.”

        Don’t count on them noticing now that they’ve finally reached a full roiling boil.

        • Peripatetic Poltroon

          Ooo. New word. And with a yard full of Batrachoseps attenuatus, I oughta know that one :)

  • JoeChristmas

    There should be no counter protests. That’s what they and the media want.

    • Ill-Advised

      Damn straight. Trump desperately needs distractions, preferably of the kind that will let him send federal troops into a sanctuary city in the blue, blue, blue Willamette Valley. The rest of the state is red, and at least one sheriff was fine with the idea of being the absolute authority during the Malheur Refuge invasion. Can’t remember what happened to him…

  • JoeChristmas

    So, it’s a Trump rally. Then all blame is on him.

  • SnarkON

    Because they are holding their dumb rally in a place called Shrunk Plaza, I’m assuming that all of these Nazi idiots are like three inches tall.

  • VirginiaLady

    This is the chance to answer the old question “What if they threw a war and nobody came?”
    Shun that place like the plague and don’t allow any press in, for their own safety of course.

    • Chris

      Actually I’d advocate really big speakers with a laugh track.

      • Miss Dill

        Better yet!

  • BearLeft

    Yeah, First Amendment and all, but I finally had it with the ACLU when they represented the Westboro Baptist Church (of God Hates Fags fame) in a successful appeal (all the way to the US Supreme Court) of a civil judgment for intentional infliction of emotional distress. Bear in mind that the Citizens United decision was premised on the First Amendment as well. I don’t pretend to know the answers, but I think both cases got it wrong. I’m done paying for the legal fees of people who insist on being assholes.

    • Yr. Gma

      It would be nice if we could pick and choose the freedoms we want for ourselves and deny them to others. So much tidier.

      • Old town Urbandale

        Yeah, you don’t hear the Second Amendment gun nuts advocating that some groups doesn’t get to own guns. Terrorists, people with no-contact orders against them, the mentally ill and incompetent, everybody gets a gun!

        • Not precisely true. Gun nuts would love if brown people did not get guns.
          see also: California, under Reagan.

      • BearLeft

        But I don’t want to intentionally upset mourning parents with impunity or to buy elections. The nations of western Europe seem to do OK without absolute speech freedoms — i.e., with reasonable prohibitions on incitement and hate speech (and without, of course, the unfettered ability to buy legislators, judges and executives).

        BLM and women’s marches do not criticize people for what they are (race, gender preference, etc.) but specific government actions. There’s a big difference. As in a lot of our law, I think we’re avoiding some hard work and difficult choices in favor of sweeping prohibitions. I don’t know how we get there; all I said is that I’m no longer willing to pay legal fees for assholes who intentionally upset the most vulnerable people, when that is their desired end.

        • Yr. Gma

          The answer then is to amend the Constitution.

          • BearLeft

            Sure, if you want a perfect world. (Though who would want to undertake that process in the current political climate?) Nothing in the Constitution, however, requires me to pay the Phelps family’s legal fees — which was the point of my post, why I gave up on the ACLU. I still give plenty to social justice organizations. That is up to me.

    • Your call, of course, but I guarantee you they look at BLM and Women’s marches with exactly the same contempt.

      And right now, the assholes run the government, so let’s not break one of our only lines of defense.

  • Yr. Gma

    What Portland doesn’t need is a bunch of Nazis wandering around spewing Nazi. What the United States doesn’t need is a repeal of the First Amendment. Odious as they are, the Nazis are American citizens first (I’m assuming) and Nazis second. American citizens have rights. When we start taking them away, we destroy the Constitution we love so much. It sucks. But that’s how it has to work.

  • Thurman Munster IV

    I hate Oregonian Nazis

  • You can’t use government resources to stifle anyone’s free speech. You just can’t.

    OTOH, the government can’t stop you or I from calling out assholes and fascists for what they are, either.

  • nightmoth

    I like your idea of postponement. Could Portland declare a month of mourning in which no rallies, marches, at all are permitted, then issue permits again? This is just pouring salt in the wound, splashing gas on the embers, >your metaphor here.<

    • boll ocks

      I want to agree with this badly, but once again, if the shoe is on the other foot…

  • ken_kukec

    Nearly everyone pays lip service to free speech. But most people mean freedom for speech they agree with.

    The only true measure of one’s commitment to free expression is how much freedom one is prepared to grant to expression one finds abhorrent. In the long run, in a free society, you can expect as much freedom of speech for yourself as you’re willing to grant to your ideological opposite.

    • NotALiar

      Not when our ideological opposites are promoting genocide.

    • Bongstar420

      I don’t have a problem with nazi marches if I can openly call them losers that need the state to grant them supremacy…..and also things like sadistic school kids.

  • Duchess Gummybuns

    If you deny these pricks the right to march, then they get to play martyr, which they absolutely love.

    I say let them march and largely ignore them. Being attention whores in the first place, this will be the worst thing you could do to them. They desperately want to be attacked so they can run to their masters at Breitbart and FOX and play the victim. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/44a579b8f05a2a5185716093507e4a3fc5b1fca1a34a01c5203f4f2934eb1ccb.jpg

  • Paperless Tiger

    Inciting hatred and violence is not free speech. They’ve shown us who they are, so now we can believe them. They are fucking killing people! Enough!

  • miss_grundy

    It is time to turn the water cannon on these assholes…..

  • TootsStansbury

    These assholes should have their free speech. They should be ignored but noted. We normal or liberal people have let so much venom slide over the past 40 goddamn years; they need to blab but we need to document the blab.

    I hate these fuckers and would love to get in a street fight with them. It’s not the answer. The answer is to politically and legally kick them to the fucking curb. Drive a stake through their sick ideas. Don’t be nice liberals and dust the heinous little motherfuckers off, wipe their goddamn noses and send them back to the sandbox. No more. Figuratively bury them in the sandbox with a stake thEircom hearts. No letsy upsies.

    • boll ocks

      Document the blab for future generations, I totally agree

    • clairence

      Weren’t we all pissed off royally by W’s “free speech zones”? Well I still am, but let’s put these guys there.

  • FlownΩver

    “…yelling ‘theater!’ in a crowded fire…”

    h/t Abbie Hoffman, IIRC.

  • nightmoth

    At the risk of having a bunch of you pile on me, I’ll be serious a minute and say that although I don’t where to draw the line, I am NOT a free speech absolutist any more than I am a gun rights absolutist. Back in 1976 an interesting thing happened in Indiana: the Kit-Kat Lounge wanted to have all-nude dancing and hired a lawyer to claim that the state’s “pasties and a g-string” requirement was a violation of their free speech and THEY WON! Ever since then, I’ve been afraid that “free speech” has become so elastic, we’re gonna stretch it to the breaking point. When Europe started outlawing right-wing nuts’ proclivity towards holocaust denial, we had progressives like Christopher Hitchens (whom I adored) shake their finger at them, but I supported the 16 European countries where lying about the Holocaust is illegal. We have a terrible problem right now with hate speech being protected as free speech, and outright ridiculous lies on right-wing media being protected as free speech. So this rant is a little OT—yeah, I think the Nazis and the KKK should be allowed to show off, but Houston: we got a problem!

    • dunno why folk would pile on, you raise valid points.
      One of the differences between libtards and conservatives: We can know several things are true and right and at the same time.
      Having said that, however, using government to forbid free speech is probably not something we want- specifically since right now the right controls most, and fairly soon might be all- avenues of government

      • Bongstar420

        Libtards.

        LOL

        Yes…the long con goes on

    • Stulexington

      I’d love to trust the government to draw a firm line on where it created an exception to freedom of speech and never cross that line, but I can’t. The problem with giving the good, well thinking people in government power is you also give it to the poo flinging howlermonkies currently infesting the GOP. And even if they finally throw off that group there’s always a danger that they’ll infest the place again.

    • boll ocks

      Unfortunately I don’t trust anyone in power to start drawing those lines and think they(the lines) should be left alone for the moment. Just my opinion though, and you know what they say about those!

    • Bongstar420

      I hate nazi’s!

      Better haul me off then

      • nightmoth

        I get your point, but what if I say “I hate Nazis and they need to be killed and here’s the address and a map to the house.” That’s what happened with the free speech directed at that murdered ob/gyn who did abortions. Now I’m gonna google whether or not anybody did hard time for that, because I don’t think anybody did.

        • shivaskeeper

          If you are talking about George Tiller, his murderer went to prison. Bill O’Riley, who was pretty well directly involved in inciting the murder with the whole “Tiller the Killer” thing and where his clinic was and when he worked didn’t even get a slap on the wrist.

          • nightmoth

            Oh, god, I forgot Billo drove that! Thx for the info.

    • shivaskeeper

      See the replies below. Trusting the government, any government, to decide what is and isn’t allowed as speech is a losing proposition for everyone in anything other than the short term. In the short term one group will be happier than all the rest, but even they will lose in the long run. Governments change, leadership changes, and the voters and their morality changes over time,. What is protected today may not be protected tomorrow. What is banned today may be open game tomorrow.

      Right now the GOPers control all three branches of government. Do you want them deciding what is allowed speech? Even flipping that coin and saying Team Blue was in charge, I would still be against our side saying what is allowed. We want to hope that we would be tolerant and understanding, but we won’t be. Not by a long shot.

      At what point does a government draw the line? Is any religious speech protected? Some religions more than others? Some religions not at all? Some protest is exempted, but other protests aren’t? Does it depend on the message or the intended receivers of the message? Will it depend on how popular the message is or the messenger? What things will be approved or not?

      We have some laws and rules regulating freedom of speech like the incitement laws. or yelling fire in a crowded theater. Those are there for the public good, and I don;t think anyone would dispute that. We also have restrictions put on where we can engage on speech like “free speech zones” at political rallies that I damn sure do not agree with, but they are the current law.

  • boll ocks

    It sucks having to defend the first amendment sometimes. But consider the alternative, and I think most of us will (grudgingly) admit that this is one of those “all or nothing” scenarios. Wouldn’t it be nice if humankind could be ruled by decency and kindness? After the last year of staring ceaselessly into humanity’s bloody maw I know that all traces of idealism are now dead in me.

    • Bongstar420

      The first amendment gives us the right to slash throats when others try to stop our verbal abuse?

      • Peripatetic Poltroon

        Um, what?

        • Bongstar420

          LOL…Woosh!

          • Peripatetic Poltroon

            I resemble that remark!

      • boll ocks

        Of course not, I hardly defended the actions of the attacker, please read what I wrote.

  • Somecallmetim

    Thank you Doktor Zoom for the well said talking points. I would like to take this moment to exercise my free speech and say white supremists are inferior to the rest of humanity. I feel stronger already. I appreciate that you take a stand for free speech. It also provides a good forum for these assholes to be on public display so we know who the ignorant idiots are and for Intelligence to keep tabs on them because they are a terrorist threat. This movement has largely moved out of the public eye because they know that most Americans look down on them. It just makes them more insidious. I like to know who they are. But beyond that, free speech is far too valuable to American democracy to squander on trying to determine whose free speech is okay. Another benefit to these people being visible is apparent when you see images of their rallies. More disturbing weirdness than a prostate exam. I don’t know anybody who wants to join a prostate exam.

  • Bongstar420

    The cockroaches are coming out of the wood works….we all should have seen it coming with trumpski being installed into the executive.

  • clairence

    The “free speechers” can’t distance themselves from him. He is one of them. He as much as said so in court today.

    I’ve been saying US has been in a civil war since Spring 2016, but in this day and age, the early battles were happening in cyberspace. It seems things are escalating, on both sides, though mostly from the right.

    • shivaskeeper

      Where on the left is the escalating violence? Anarchists and Black Bloc are left only in the fact that they tend to congregate to the more progressive protests, I can only assume because they know if they disrupted a Tea Party rally they would be shot by whoever is feeling like a vigilante that day.

      • clairence

        I don’t know what “black bloc” means, but I was referring to the anti-fascists.

        • shivaskeeper

          Black Bloc is the “anarchists” who attach themselves to every progressive protest in they can, particularly around Portland. Otherwise known as the Committee To Fuck Shit Up. They have no overriding principles or goals other than to break windows, start fires, and generally be the ones who give libtards a bad and violent name. The anti-fascist street fighters seem to be cut from the same cloth. Just looking for a convenient group to attach to for the cover provided, with no goal in mind other than starting a riot.

          • merty

            Also the black bloc is providing tons of propaganda material for Fox News. Now people are lumping them together with all other protesters.

  • guppy06

    the sweet old-fashioned notion that the best way to combat offensive speech is with more speech

    We’re having this conversation because that tactic gets you stabbed to death. Or shot.

  • guppy06

    But that’s the thing with free speech — if you ban the neo-Nazis, then you’ve set a precedent to ban protests after cops kill an unarmed black kid.

    I think it’s more correct to say you’d set a precedent to hinder cops from protesting unarmed black kids getting in the way of their innocent bullets, bullets they’d bring with them to said peaceful protest in case any opportunities regrettable instances of standing-one’s-ground might arise.

  • Sheryl Macy

    I hate those fucking Illinois Nazis

  • Somecallmetim

    I learned a bunch o stuff about Oregon from NPR. I’m sure a lot of people already knew this. It originated as a whites only state. Up until ten years ago they still had language in their laws listing definitions for “black” and “mulatto”. How gawdawful weird is that. I can only imagine being black and thinking – These sociopaths are just fucking baffling. And for the grand finale of pick on Oregon day – they have the highest per capita membership in the Klan than any other state.

    • Persistent Demme

      Once you get into the interior, and (usually) away from Portland, it’s rough.
      (California is sorta like that, too.)
      Kamau Bell did a great show about this.

    • Peripatetic Poltroon

      Srsly? More than Idaho or ‘Bammie? Cite?

      • Somecallmetim

        NPR – the per-capita is the category they get it on. For my money – Florida. I never heard so much vileness as I’m FL.

  • The Librarian

    What if they gave a hate-filled rally and nobody came?

    • LeighBowery’sLuxuryComedy

      See I keep thinking that the real antidote to all this is to go out and live our lives as we DAMN WELL PLEASE. They wanna march around in their Wally World hunting gear and an MRA tshirt with a beachtowel around their necks, let em. Meanwhile we’ll be in the next park over having the biggest, gayest, free food love-in and dance party you’ve ever seen. Laughter is the ultimate weapon.

      • Regret

        I would totally go to a party that was given for that reason!

        • LeighBowery’sLuxuryComedy

          If it weren’t for this pesky having to work for a living thing, I would SO be out trying to get things like this going.. *sigh*

  • pixeloid

    Fuck the Nazis, but also fuck the anarchists and black bloc. If those guys want to kill each other off, let them. The cops should just keep normal people away from rallies until the factions have finished “free speeching” each other to death.

    • Regret

      Wait, are you equating anarchists with Nazis?
      That’s… disturbing.

      To you ‘Abolish the wages system’ is equally offensive as ‘Arbeit macht frei’?
      Another comparison: ‘Three Word Chant!’ vs ‘Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer’

      Personally, I think ‘Three Word Chant’ is hilarious!

      I’m taking this from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_slogans, which is not known for its anarchist bias.

      Some more from wikipedia:
      “Anarchism is a political philosophy that advocates self-governed societies based on voluntary institutions.”

      “National Socialism (…) Usually characterised as a form of fascism that incorporates scientific racism and antisemitism,”

      Also, gives us your definition of ‘normal’ if you must use that overused word.

      • pixeloid

        Whatever they claim their philosophy to be, their behavior at protests is pretty damn similar. Nazis are there to spread hate and beat people but the black bloc guys seem to have no goal beyond spreading chaos. Either way, they’re a bunch of dangerously violent fucksticks.

        • Alex Grey

          As long as they do not incite violence, they are protected under the 1st amendment right to assemble… Doesn’t mean the riot police can’t be there.

          • pixeloid

            I’m saying DON’T interfere while the 2 groups “communicate” with each other. Just keep uninvolved observers at a safe distance from the “discussion” to avoid injury.

    • Alex Grey

      with votes?

      • pixeloid

        Well, that would be optimum, but I’m pretty sure most of those clowns aren’t there to vote.

        • Alex Grey

          No, unfortunately you are correct…

  • IdiokraticDrumpfenJugend
    • doktorzoom

      Oh, hey, they quoted this piece! Thanks, Rude Pundit!

      • phoenix00

        See how famous you are Dok?

  • eddi_the_Bad_Hombre

    Line the streets. Point and laugh. Take lots of pictures and post them to every public forum you have access to. Send copies to the Southern Poverty Law Center so they can name them. Send copies to the FBI.

    • Riley Whodat Venable

      Carry signs with pictures of Christian’s mug shot. Shout “This is what White Supremacy looks like.”

  • ibwilliamsi
  • SeeTrain65

    Sometimes the marketplace of ideas is more like a stable. Some days you ride that stallion, some days you muck out the stalls.

  • willi0000000

    if (when) they hold the rally/march against Sharia Law there should be thousands showing up with signs demanding an end to Scalia Law.

  • King Beauregard

    This is the one point that holds up for me:

    “But that’s the thing with free speech — if you ban the neo-Nazis, then you’ve set a precedent to ban protests after cops kill an unarmed black kid.”

    But the other side is, it’s up to us to be careful not to use “principles” as an excuse to let assholes get away with what they do unopposed. We just need to pick our tactics carefully.

  • King Beauregard

    Anyone remember when Neo-Nazis were tricked into doing a walkathon for their enemies?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/18/neo-nazis-tricked-into-raising-10000-for-charity

    • SisterArtemis

      That’s a good one to keep in mind

  • Alex Grey

    It’s unfortunate, but the 1st Amendment right to assemble does apply to them. Take it away from “shit-fer-brains” types, and you have to take it away from everyone.

    • King Beauregard

      I don’t think it’s quite that simple; there are arguments about a risk of incitement to violence, and government does have a legitimate role in keeping citizens from hurting one another.

      But, it’s a cinch that anything done to suppress Nazis will then be used to oppress BLM, if for no other reason than spite.

      • Alex Grey

        Yes: you can’t yell “fire” in a crowded venue.
        No: You can’t forbid assholes from gathering and protesting total BS.

        • King Beauregard

          Yes you can if there incitement to violence is a legitimate risk. Brandenburg v. Ohio.

          • Alex Grey

            Back when I lived in Washington DC, I had a black lawyer friend. He took a case defending a white supremacist. I asked him why he took the case. He said, “Someone has to defend him, it’s his right.”

          • King Beauregard

            That’s swell. Just so we’re clear that the right to assemble CAN be taken away from “shit-fer-brains” types, per the Supreme Court, provided said assembly meets the intent / imminence / likelihood standards. I don’t think the Portland rally meets those criteria — “likelihood” is the least compelling at this point — but we will see.

          • Alex Grey

            It wouldn’t be inappropriate for riot police to be on the scene… By the by, I do live in Portland.

          • Riley Whodat Venable

            With their tactical team and MWRAP.
            Make Portland as safe as Ferguson.

          • SkinlessGenderlessMan

            Besides, the irony is perfect! That, and it kinda forces the defendant into contact with “one of them”, which may be educational.

            Any idea how it worked out in the end?

  • Alex Grey
  • phoenix00

    along with the sweet old-fashioned notion that the best way to combat offensive speech is with more speech

    I think you touched on this briefly but I thought the best way to combat nazis is to punch them! #punchallnazis

    (Actually this is very cogently written Dok! Free speech is that – a freedom, and one enshrined right at the top of the Constitutional program.)

  • Riley Whodat Venable

    Thanks Dok,
    As always you are a voice of sanity. The best way to combat offensive speach is more speach.
    There is a need to organize. I plan to organize a party for the night Christian is executed.

  • David Heffron

    “if you ban the neo-Nazis, then you’ve set a precedent to ban protests after cops kill an unarmed black kid”

    Not quite. You’ve set a precedent to ban “cop pride” marches after cops kill and unarmed black kid.

    Generally the side that the murderer belongs to don’t protest.

  • shoeflyin

    A friend from Macon GA told me how they responded to a KKK parade.. they stood along the parade route with their backs to the street. Seems like a good way to encourage them to not come back.

    • ResistanceFictionista blondeiq

      I think that’s a first-class response, as are the sad oompah bands and clowns I’ve seen elsewhere. Unfortunately, I also think that it’s in the nazi interest to seed any kind of peaceful counter-protest with agents provocateur. Count on it.

  • x111e7thst

    There is a class of problems problems that can be solved with violence. Nazis (by whatever name) are in this class. Whether they should be solved with violence is probably not determinable a priori.

    • Lily412

      Just because you can solve a problem with violence, doesn’t mean you should.

  • redblack

    portland cops do not fuck around, and they don’t put up with violence. they will shut it down at the first sign of trouble.

  • Lily412

    What Portland needs is an equality rally at a nearby location on the same day and time as these other events.

  • DoILookAmused2u? Résistance☨

    Germany has free speech with only once exception: no pro-Nazi stuff, no Nazi regalia.’

    Is possible, but 1st Amendment would need to append “with only one exception ever: No Nazi stuff”.

    Of course, there was no Nazi stuff in the 1780s.

  • And a heavy police presence, to keep them and antifa troublemakers well apart.

    “Antifa” is just another name for Patriotic Americans who’ve got some pretty darn good reasons for being angry?
    https://media.giphy.com/media/3osxYrgM8gi9CDjcPu/giphy.gif

    • randomhookup

      I’m gonna give that salute about a 4. Great emotion, but poor aim. Back to Basic Training.

  • Charles Wolf
  • timpundit

    It’s not the speech we ‘like’, that needs protecting.

  • Zyxomma

    Never knew what antifa meant; thanks, Doktor. Now I know. Yes, free speech for all, no matter how much those words may stink up the joint.

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