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Don’t stop thinkin’ about the ’90s

[Added Thursday, Aug. 18: Many readers have had extremely unhappy reactions to this post. Some parts, as it was written hastily, were more sloppy than not. I would like to try to clarify that muddiness, in addition to apologizing to Juanita Broaddrick specifically, here.]

Buzzfeed has a long, interesting interview with Juanita Broaddrick, the woman who says Bill Clinton raped her in an Arkansas hotel room almost 40 years ago. Maybe this case has always bugged you too, because we are supposed to believe women when it comes to rape. (For the record, I don’t “always” believe women. I think some women are messed up, and some women lie.)

Why did Juanita Broaddrick change her story? ask people who otherwise would automatically answer “rape survivors do that sometimes.” (When Paula Jones’s lawyers came knocking, she told them that nothing had happened, she says, because she wanted it to go away.)

Why is Juanita Broaddrick so cozy with all the rightwingers? they ask. (Because she hates Hillary Clinton, because she believes that she tried to silence her.)

And … that’s pretty much all the “I don’t believe Juanita” crowd has. Her friends found her with bruised lips, crying, right after the rape allegedly occurred. That’s what we call “contemporaneous evidence” when we believe women.

Here are a few quick thinkerings, which you may or may not disagree with, quite loudly!

  • I can absolutely see Bill Clinton doing this (then, not now) and not even thinking of it as rape, but thinking of it as dominant, alpha sex. I can see a LOT of men doing that during that time period, before we started telling them in the ’80s, “hey, that is rape, do not do that.” I can see YOUR NICE GRANDPA doing that, back then.
  • In the Buzzfeed piece, Broaddrick’s precocious 13-year-old grandson — who sounds like a really sweet young man — has learned this year about his grandmother’s “complicated” past, thanks to overheard conversations and gaps filled in by Google. He says to force sex on a woman means you are an “evil” person. I don’t think this is true. I think you can do something horrible, realize later that it is horrible, be ashamed forever and try to keep it secret and never do it again. (Especially if you’re, say, a teenager whose impulse control is still years away from being properly developed.)
  • “Rape is about power, not sex.” For those for whom it’s about power, those are the serial rapist guys, and they hate women and want to punish us. But I don’t think that’s in every case. I think good men can rape, and be sorry, and not do it again. This is very bad feminism.
  • While I (sort of? am leaning toward?) believe Juanita Broaddrick, her characterization of Hillary Clinton sounds irrational, maybe induced from PTSD:

    Soon after, Broaddrick says, she ran into Hillary Clinton at a political rally Broaddrick had promised friends she would attend. Hillary shook her hand and thanked her for everything she had done for Bill. To Broaddrick, the gesture felt like a threat to stay silent. As attorney general and later governor, Bill Clinton was “the main person that regulated my business and my income,” Broaddrick said. “After she said what she did to me, I just thought, I will keep quiet.”

    There is simply no reason Hillary Clinton would have known jackshit about it; Bill Clinton was always lying to her, and she loved him, and she kept believing him when it was long past silly to do so. “Honey, I raped that nice lady” isn’t a thing he would have opened up to her about, and “thanks so much for the campaigning you did for my husband” just doesn’t sound like a threat in any possible universe.

  • Just because Broaddrick seems irrational about Hillary Clinton’s response doesn’t make her irrational about the rest.
  • To sum up, I think Bill Clinton could very well have raped Juanita Broaddrick; that it doesn’t make him an evil man, or irredeemable (I’m Catholic; we’re all forgiven, if we’re sorry, and Broaddrick says Bill Clinton personally called her up to apologize). It doesn’t even necessarily make him a bad feminist — you know, later, once he stops doing that.
  • I don’t necessarily believe the woman who says Donald Trump raped her when she was a 13-year-old girl. (I’m pretty sure he did rape his wife though, seeing as how she said so under oath.) It doesn’t seem in character — to me — that he would threaten to have her disappeared. It seems a lot more Trumpy that he’d send her off with a “good girl” and a smack on the ass, assuming she’d be grateful to have hosted Trump’s magnificent schlong.

How’s that for fair and balanced?

[Please see here for my later thoughts.]

[Buzzfeed]

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  • “Trump’s magnificent schlong.”

    Will DJT be able to identify that as sarcasm?

    • Crystalclear12

      Nope

    • Msgr_Moment

      I bet he’d retweet it.

    • OneYieldRegular

      Is that how Putin described it?

    • (((JustPixelz)))

      No.

    • kindness

      Sure if you give them a big enough magnifying glass.

  • Ms.MLG1979

    Some women are messed up. Some women lie. But few lie about sexual assault. I’ll post this again, because it’s important. False rape accusations occur at the same rate as false reporting of any other crime. That’s between 2% and 8%. No one but Broaddrick and Clinton can say what happened in that room, but facts is facts, and at the very least, statistically, 92% of rape accusations are true.

    • rebecca

      yes, but that’s two to eight percent of accused men who are innocent, which doesn’t sound like much unless you’re one of them. so I don’t *always* believe women; I like to hear the facts first when at all possible.

      • Ms.MLG1979

        Agreed, but whenever false accusations of rape are being discussed, it’s important to remember false accusations are not the norm, as has been believed and promoted for a long time, to the detriment of many victims.

      • Vegan and Tiara

        Another salient point – most of the men that are set free by the Innocence Project are men who were convicted of rape and murder, and are later set free by DNA evidence. Sigh…it’s a shitty crime, and there are both female AND male victims.

    • Vegan and Tiara

      I read somewhere that rape is one of the hardest crimes to get real statistics for. I can see how it would be hard to quantify, because it’s a much more nuanced crime than any other crime, and there are frequently no witnesses.

      • Ms.MLG1979

        It’s also hard to gather good data because it’s the only crime in existence met with doubt upon reporting, the most underreported crime, and, this is just my opinion, the most misunderstood crime.

        • gedjcj

          Not just doubt, often with scorn.

        • Vegan and Tiara

          It’s also the only crime that there can be miscommunication about. If someone robs or murders you, you’re pretty sure you just got robbed or murdered, but with rape, some times there are gray areas. Some times people make bad decisions when they are drunk, some times people are too drunk to give consent, but who knows EXACTLY where that line is drawn? What if you’re BOTH drunk? Sigh…at least there has been SOME progress made in the way women are treated by the justice system, even though it may not always seem like we’ve made much progress.

          Years ago I followed a very drunk young woman wearing hot pants and wedge shoes down the street. I really feared for her safety, and sure enough, a bunch of men started swooping down on her. To their credit, they did all go away when she told them to get lost. I walked up to her, and said “I want to help you get home, because I’m worried about you.” She told me to get lost, too. I walked away thinking to myself that if she got raped or murdered, at least my conscience would be clean. I realized she was so wasted that she might not realize I’m a woman since I’m androgynous looking. I thought about it some more, and I walked back and said “look, I used to be a young woman myself, and I’m really worried about you. I’m going to give you two choices. I’m either going to call the police and have them take you home, or I’m going to take you home.” She visibly relaxed because she must have realized she was very vulnerable, and she let me walk her to the ship she was stationed on.
          I’m not sure what the point of my story is, other than we need to take better care of each other, and maybe we need more alcohol awareness taught to the youths?

          • Good_Gawd_Yall

            Good for you for persisting. I think the majority of us would’ve given up, and gawd knows what would have happened to her.

          • Vegan and Tiara

            I was REALLY afraid for her. Full disclosure: I’ve also tried to help men who were really drunk. I never call the cops, because I know they will end up in jail for the night, but I always worry about drunks and lost dogs.

          • Celtic_Gnome

            As important as the alcohol awareness is, teaching the youths not to rape is, I believe, more important.

            If a man gets wasted at a party and passes out beside a dumpster, he’s either A. Going to wake up in a pool of vomit beside a dumpster with a vicious headache, or B. Wake up in jail. He isn’t going to wake up with his pants around his ankles.

    • Lizzietish81

      The problem is that most rapes are perpetrated by a known person, so it often comes down to “he said, she said” and not always involving physical violence. And since the Judicial system is based on the idea that someone is innocent until proven guilty, it adds an extra layer of complications for the victim.

      And that’s before you get into the social stigma of being a rape victim.

      • Ms.MLG1979

        Exactly. The amount of misinformation and stigma surrounding all sex crimes is staggering. Law enforcement doesn’t have good info, victims don’t have good info, the public doesn’t. It’s a big problem.

      • Good_Gawd_Yall

        IMHO, all the decades we spent hiding the names of victims was well-intentioned but very wrong. It added to the stigma – “it is so terrible and shameful – and made rape into a whole new category of crime, one in which the victim was assumed to share in the blame (“led him on,” “inappropriately dressed”) unless she was as pure as the driven snow. This is how we got the dreadful distinction in some peoples’ minds between “real rape,” where the victim was beaten up and tormented, and some paler version in which there was plenty of room to “reinterpret” what happened.

    • Dr. Rrrrrobotnik

      Maybe it’s because I’m a lawyer so I instinctively try to find the technicality in things, but I feel like what falls flat about the 92% statistic is that, while on the macro scale it seems to mean a lot, on the case-by-case basis it means nothing. Unless the numbers are 100% or 0%, a case can always be the rule or the exception, based entirely on one’s own biases. When we’re kind of obligated to assume Bill’s innocence, but also believe the victim, I honestly don’t know who I’m being unfair to when I choose to believe someone in a situation like this, you know?

      • Ms.MLG1979

        I feel the same way. There just isn’t anything positive about rape or lying about it, and neither is a thing we can feel good about. :(

  • arglebargle

    So Obama invaded Afghanistan to divert attention away from the developing Clinton scandal?

    • (((JustPixelz)))

      That’s what the dishonest media wants you to believe.

  • TJ Barke

  • Me not sure

    This all falls under the very broad catagory of “I dunno.” I hope it wasn’t true, but if it was, she should pursue vindication

  • hyperbolic_hysteria

    Bill Clinton isn’t running for president.

    • TJ Barke

      Guilt by association.

      • Blank Ron

        It’s all the Rs have left.

  • Msgr_Moment

    Both sides schlong it.

  • marxalot

    OT, but you guys, I really hope I get deposed.

    • Msgr_Moment

      Will serve as her own lawyer?
      Couldn’t she get any pro boner?

      • TJ Barke

        I think even Liberty Council ain’t that stupid.

    • TJ Barke

      Hey, bitch, if your god is real, and hates the gays, he’ll sort them out in the afterlife, so stop being such a bitch.

      • Blank Ron

        Where’s the fun in that?

    • Good_Gawd_Yall

      You know how you can tell your lawsuit is stupid and bad? If even Larry Klaymore or Mat Staver won’t take your case.

    • TJ Barke

      Is she going to have to prove incontrovertibly that her god is real?

      • Blank Ron

        I’d settle for ‘beyond a reasonable doubt.’

        • TJ Barke

          That’s a pretty low bar for declaring an entire class of people as immoral.

          • Blank Ron

            How so? My intent was to point out that you cannot ‘prove’ the existence of the Christian God at all, by any standards the law recognises as valid. If I was unclear I apologise.

    • General Vecchiojohn
      • Good_Gawd_Yall

        Oh, shoot! Before we even get a chance to play with her! Dammit!

        • General Vecchiojohn

          An Obama appointee. Altogether now:

          Thanks, Obama.

          • Aquaria

            No, really. Thank you, Obama.

      • The first sentence of that article cracked me up:

        A federal judge will not allow a Nebraska woman to be a legal spokeswoman for God and his son, Jesus Christ.

      • Lascauxcaveman

        I noticed that four of the five top stories on the sidebar were directly related to ‘huskers football. LOL, I guess it’s that season.

    • limberrat

      Someone should probably teach her how to spell. Seriously read it!

      • Aquaria

        You expected good spelling?

        I would have been more surprised if she’d gotten that right.

  • Msgr_Moment

    I look forward to the calm, reasoned response from the non-Wonketariat. Has Glenn Groanwald been apprised?
    EDITED to make it less googlable.

    • Marion in Savannah

      HUSH!!! Jeez — do you really want to deal with another influx of morans?

  • Beanz&Berryz

    A fine Wonketteer discussion topic. Touching on topics that are hard to touch… rape, otherwise good, decent guys who do rapey things, women who those rapey things happen to and who say different things about the rapeyness. A very nice summary of what could have happened way back when, between BIl and Juanita and between Hillary and Bill and Hillary and Juanita.

  • Good_Gawd_Yall

    This all happened a really long time ago, and I know from personal experience that a person shapes a narrative in her own mind that she can live with. I’m not saying that Ms. Broaddrick has necessarily done that, but it does seem a little odd that she would interpret a handshake and thank-you from Hillary Clinton as a threat to keep her damn mouth shut. What seems more likely to me is that she really hates the Clintons (with good reason, if her story is true) and has, over time, convinced herself that Hillary was threatening her because HRC is evil and bad.

    • Mezzaluna

      Or if she still had some misplaced affection for Bill, it’s much easier to blame the evil wife.

  • Señor Skwerl

    I has a sad for many reasons in this story, both if it is true and if it ain’t. Sads all around.

  • BadKitty904

    That fact that this Wonkette discussion is even taking place very clearly illustrates, for me, one of the fundamental differences between Democrats and Republicans.

  • Lizzietish81

    I don’t know, I don’t see Bill as the rapey kind. Way too friendly yeah, as evidenced by that Paula person, but not violent and dominating. He always seemed to get more satisfaction out of seduction, not domination.

    • KBQ

      He never struck me as the rapey kind either, but maybe that one time? IDK. I don’t know what to make of this whole thing, except that the blame on Hillary seems a bit…delusional?

    • BadKitty904

      Unfortunately, especially at this late date, I’m afraid this will always be a he-said-she-said situation. Very Rashomon, The actual chain of events may be never be known.

      Not that that will, for one hot minute, keep a Certain Political Party from trying to weaponized these opinions and parade them as “facts”…

      • marxalot

        What does the Communist Party of Poland have to do with this?
        Oooooooh, never mind.

    • anon_the_great

      Most rapists don’t ‘seem’ rapey. It how they position themselves to rape.

      • I Only Like Cats

        Most rapists give you a sense of dread, fear, and creepiness you don’t understand and can’t place. They also tend don’t believe in consent or believe that if you pressure/shame them into not saying no, that’s consent.

        • Aquaria

          No, they don’t always give you a sense of dread or fear. It seems that way later, but it doesn’t always seem that way at the time.

          Ted Bundy seemed like a nice guy until he raped and murdered. He seemed like a guy you wanted to talk to and help–until it was too late.

      • Lizzietish81

        Occasionally my therapist and I have discussions about hypervigilance, which is a thing that kids from dysfunctional families tend to get. Some people think I’m prickly and while yes, I am, a lot of that stems from this.

        Creepers tend to act a certain way that seems nice and affable, but there’s an undercurrent that is disturbing.

        • Good_Gawd_Yall

          Yes. This.

        • Beowoof14

          Coming from a dysfunctional family I can tell you this is true. And I am guy. It can make you weary in having defenses up all the time.

        • I Only Like Cats

          You are much fluent in expressing this, I should have left it to you.

    • I Only Like Cats

      I’m sure parts of it are true (especially since the biting lip thing happened in a consensual encounter and it’s kinda weird someone would bite that hard) but time and PTSD (and other mental illnesses, not saying anything against the person) can have an effect on the memories. I also know from personal experience after it happens to you, you tell someone, because you need to, make them swear not to mention it, then years later it turns out EVERYONE knew and did nothing except spread the knowledge around, and it takes a few years after that before you go to therapy.

    • (((JustPixelz)))

      “I don’t see Bill as the rapey kind. Way too friendly…”

      Bill Clinton or Bill Cosby?

      • Lizzietish81

        To be fair, Clinton has had a history of sexual behavior becoming public, which Cosby didn’t, so we do have a basis to make these calls.

        Paula Jones (yes I looked her up) was sexually propositioned by him in a horribly inappropriate way, he dropped his pants, but it seems that nothing happened afterwards when she said no.

        It just doesn’t seem his usual MO.

    • SnarkOff

      I feel like you would not say this if the man in question was a Republican.

      • Lizzietish81

        Very likely. I once said that Paul Ryan struck me as date rapey. otoh, I can’t think of any specific examples of Democrats accused of rape where I hadn’t said anything like this, but it’s possible.

      • I Only Like Cats

        I feel like people who have been through this sort of thing tend to get really good at noting this stuff. Most Republicans strike me as not believing in consent (especially because they say they don’t) and Democrats do so we’d be more likely to defend them (because they know what they’re about). The behavior Juanita reports is out of character but because of how long it took for her to give her statement, it’s very likely the story has become warped in her own mind (from PTSD) so I’m willing to give her the benefit of the doubt.

    • Aquaria

      The line between the two can get very blurry sometimes.

      That’s the problem.

  • SnarkOff

    I don’t even want to touch this, and for me, that is rare.

    • goonemeritus

      We Snark on the postings we have, not the postings we wish we had.

  • freakishlystrong

    I shit you not. This a.m. when I was done with my workout, I switched back to my cable and caught Mark fucking Halperin declaring that The Donald can’t run against the NYT on top of everything else! Poor Donald! Mean librul media! I lunged for the remote.

    • Good_Gawd_Yall

      WTF is wrong with Halperin? Does he WANT Trump to be the goddamn president?

      • freakishlystrong

        Sure! Then he gets to suck his dick on AirForce1!

      • Swampgas_Man

        He wants a horse race, because that’s more fun to report on yap about.

        • Good_Gawd_Yall

          He better be careful. Reporting during a Turnip presidency would also be eventful. For about 8 months, after which he’d be in a bunker somewhere trying to raise Dallas by shortwave.

      • Truthiness2U

        Halperin is a liar and a fool. On one of the people I follow on the twitter, they have a clip of Halperin in March saying that Trump was the second best communicator they’d ever seen (Bill Clinton was first). And that yes, he was better at communicating than Obama.

        • Good_Gawd_Yall

          Well, somebody needs to get him on some better drugs, is all I can say.

    • SnarkOff

      That’s what you get for skipping your leg presses.

    • FlownOver

      It wasn’t easy but I’ve programmed my teevee to lock out all effort to show MSNBC between 5 and 6 central time M-F. No sense spoiling a perfectly good dinner, and I don’t know how well the teevee would stand up to the rock throwing. As unlikely as it seems I now look forward to the Tweety Hour as a step up.

  • Bernarda Alba

    Having unfortunately ridden that rollercoaster of believed/not believed after experiencing an event that might or might not be considered rape depending on who you talk to, I would respond, and this is meant in the nicest way possible, who CARES what you think?

    Of course it’s possible that Bill raped Juanita. Bill does not have good moral boundaries when it comes to indulging himself sexually. This is an established fact. It’s possible that he’s done everything he’s been accused of. Every woman who’s accused Bill of any sort of sexual transgression deserves to tell her story and if applicable have her day in court. That’s how the American justice system should work when it comes to sex crimes. People who’ve been targeted by sexual predators shouldn’t have to run a gauntlet of self-appointed gatekeepers who feel they have the right to decide on the spot whether the case has enough merit to proceed. This is how we get file folders full of suppressed child abuse cases in the archives of churches and educational institutions and cupboards full of unprocessed rape kits in police stations. You can have your opinion but YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO DECIDE WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

    • Good_Gawd_Yall

      I’m not in any way trying to diminish the pain you’ve obviously gone through, but my take on this article was that it was a presentation of the story, not a judgment call on what happened. In fact I found myself confused at the end of it as to which interpretation of events Editrix felt was true, which doesn’t, to me at least, signal any deciding at all.
      And you are absolutely right that there is no justification for not fully investigating every case of rape or abuse.

    • Lizzietish81

      Just for the sake of argument about Bill’s sexual indulgences, the facts have never included him being forceful. Unwanted advances? Yes. Paula Whatername certainly didn’t want to be seeing his dick, but she was never punished for refusing him and he didn’t push it even by her own account.

      Lewinsky was consensual.

      • Aquaria

        Unwanted advances is a sign of someone who does not understand boundaries when it matters. That doesn’t bode well for what happens when the door shuts and it’s just two people.

        • Lizzietish81

          Which goes back to Paula Jones. he dropped his pants and asked for a blow job, she said no and apparently that was it.

    • Thatsitfor Theotherwon

      I agree. If you think you have been tortured, you probably have been. If you think you have been forcibly raped, you probably have been.

  • I Only Like Cats

    I also have complex feelings about this. I’m inclined to believe her, and also people who commit that sort of thing should be shamed (at least a little bit, good or bad) because if there are no consequences other people think, “oh hey, that’s an OK thing to do!”. I also don’t believe in forgiveness for the offender before the victim and the victim clearly has PTSD. This has absolutely nothing to do with Hillary though, who probably just believes all the people who don’t believe the accuser.

  • anwisok
    • freakishlystrong

      I send Quokkas on the regular these days..

    • Pickles McPherson

      What an excellent, uncomfortable topic. This focus on Bill’s behavior though doesn’t entirely unravel all the ways that _his_ behavior and policies are now being used against Hillary. Rebecca’s reasoned ethical argument gets there with the suggestion that Broaddrick’s Hillary hatred is a kind of PTSD-induced displacement.

      Which makes sense, but doesn’t fully account for the reflex of “guilt by association” others have mentioned. I’m maybe a bit more interested in that reflex–how and why is it that so much political discourse concerning Hillary treats her as an extension of her husband? What does it mean to somehow hold her complicit and responsible for her husband’s possible sexual guilt? It’s a sideways version of a very old gendered attack.

      Women, especially powerful women, are always sexually out of control, or just about to be (or sexually repressed, or “frigid” as the old mid-century neo-Freudians cringably used to say). By extension, Hillary stands accused of failing to manage her husband’s sexuality.

      • anwisok

        Not sure if you intended to post this as a reply to me. , but here’s the thing. I’m the proud owner/operator of a penis, and furthermore am of the ghey persuasion, which means I have very, very little direct experience with women’s issues. Therefore, I usually don’t add my voice to discussions like this. Instead, I try to listen when these types of topics come up. It seems like the right appropriate thing to do.

        • Pickles McPherson

          Not directly to you, awisok. Sorry. I’m being visibly awkward with an unfamiliar interface, don’t get how threading works here, and meant to respond to the article in general. Congratulations on the penis! I’ve been known to operate them from time to time myself.

          • anwisok

            No problem! To respond as a stand alone comment (which are not allowed here, BTW), look at the top of the whole thread, and you will see your avatar (or a placeholder if you haven’t chosen one) and a box with the words “Join the Discussion . . . ” in it. That’s not just a header image encouraging you to join in. That’s where you enter your shiny new comment which is sure to generate an unending stream of witty, informed yet entertaining responses!

    • Aquaria
  • fawkedifiknow

    Broddrick’s efforts to condemn Hillary because she said “thanks for your efforts on our behalf” is about as tortured reasoning as the Benghazi loons use. She’s obviously being used by the usual vast right wing conspiracy types.

    • Wes Grogan

      Oh, she’s been shamelessly manipulated for the far right since at least the 90s.

      • Slavakitty

        She could have stuck to her denial under oath, right? That is, if she didn’t have her own axe to grind.

    • Good_Gawd_Yall

      My immediate take-away was that she sounds like Benghazi mom at Turnip’s convention.

      • Wes Grogan

        It’s a solid take-away. Limbaugh pole-vaulted over this woman to build his career, and the right -wing trot her out anytime they need another convenient attack against the Clintons. They couldn’t care less about her… we in the comments here are probably far more sympathetic than the right regarding her.. but she sure is awfully convenient.

  • pstockholm

    … edges backwards verrrry slowly, feeling for the door ..

  • rosenbomb

    The idea of rapists being redeemable has been on my mind a lot lately, especially since finishing the last season of Orange is the New Black. I try to believe that every person is worthy of love and forgiveness, but it’s hard for me to apply that to people who (allegedly) rape and murder.

    As for Bill Clinton and Juanita Broaddrick, I have no idea what to think, but that’s fine. I have so many other thoughts but am having trouble articulating them right now.

    • alwayspunkindrublic

      From my reading of Jon Krakauer’s “Missoula”, most rapes-even drunk/date rape-are committed by serial predators. The one-time rapist is not exactly rare, but not the norm. Whether or not remorse and restitution makes it forgivable, I don’t know. If it happened to me or mine, probably not.

      • Ms.MLG1979

        This.

        • alwayspunkindrublic

          Thanks. There is a Catholic tradition of “radical forgiveness”- espoused by Sr. Helen Prejean, among others-that says a human being should not be fully judged by the worst thing they have ever done…”we’re all children of God” etc. It also involves admitting one’s culpability and genuine remorse. I admit to being intrigued by the notion, and aspiring to it…but I’m not there. Pedophiles, sadists…I dunno. But I think it is not such a bad thing to at least consider forgiveness as an option.

          • I Only Like Cats

            Sadists are fine with consensual partners (usually masochists). Pedophiles generally need genuine psychiatric help (and a lot of it, and there are people attracted to younger kids that don’t act on the attraction).

          • alwayspunkindrublic

            I mean sadists who take pleasure from torturing people or animals.

          • I Only Like Cats

            That’s antisocial personality disorder.

          • alwayspunkindrublic

            I stand corrected. And fyi, I have said on more than a couple of occasions that I would cut a bitch for hurting a dog. So much for my otherwise high-minded sentiments.

          • Slavakitty

            Ah! So you met my ex.

          • Ms.MLG1979

            Forgiveness of someone who has hurt us terribly isn’t for that person. It’s for yourself. It’s so you can move on and stop allowing that person to have power over you. It’s why I forgave my father for the things he did to my family when I was a child. That hatred was eating me up, and I had the power to let go of it, and set myself free. Not for him. For me.

          • alwayspunkindrublic

            I was trying to formulate a way of saying exactly this, but you’ve done so far better. I think personally and as a society, it is easy to get trapped in a cycle of retribution. Even when it is fairly earned, it is more corrosive than redemptive. It’s why I oppose the death penalty. That said, you cannot judge others who have suffered unimaginable injury for the way they react to it.

          • Ms.MLG1979

            No, you can’t, and that forgiveness is HARD. It’s a struggle. It’s a battle.

          • I Only Like Cats

            My outrage and fury fuels me.

          • Ms.MLG1979

            Mine fueled me to hate myself, and actively try to bring as much hurt on myself as possible. And I was very good at that. I wasted a lot of life that way. It was best for me to let it go. My life is way better. And my Dad changed. When people change, it’s easier to forgive them, because they aren’t continuing that behavior. I can’t tell you what’s right for you, sweetie, but I can tell you forgiveness of others AND myself made all the difference in my life.

          • alwayspunkindrublic

            Nothing but wicked admiration for the road you have taken. A serious existential issue for me as well. I grew up with a father who was-at best-absent, and when not, a bully, bigot, and abuser. Unlike your pops, he never changed…in fact, he clung to his perversity as the defining quality of his life.

          • Ms.MLG1979

            Most people don’t change, unfortunately. But nothing he did or didn’t do has power over what you allow to live in your mind or heart. That’s the only thing we have any control over.

          • alwayspunkindrublic

            My mother once told me, “if what you endured as a child helped shape the kind of loving parent you are today, it was worth the pain one hundredfold.” Very Catholic, but the wisest and kindest thing anyone has ever said to me.

          • Ms.MLG1979

            It goes that way for some, and others continue the cycle of abuse and abandonment. Even though you are super mean to me, like all the time, I must say, you should be very proud of yourself!

          • alwayspunkindrublic

            I’m mean to you because I adore you…think of it like a little kid throwing rocks at the girl he has a crush on.

          • Ms.MLG1979

            I adore you, too, but if you throw a rock at me, or ever tell a little girl a boy hits her because he likes her, I’ll come at you like something unleashed from the bowels of hell! I’ll verbally spar with you all day, though! ;)

          • alwayspunkindrublic

            Don’t take my reference from an old “Dick and Jane” book too literally. If I was half my age, I might toss a pebble at your bedroom window at night to wake you up.

          • Ms.MLG1979

            I can get behind that! But you need to understand, upon waking, I am always a beast unleashed from the bowels of hell. Bring coffee!

          • alwayspunkindrublic

            Got it. And maybe some pepper spray in case the coffee doesn’t do the trick.

          • Ms.MLG1979

            Hold a puppy!

      • I Only Like Cats

        We probably shouldn’t even be talking about forgiveness/redemption before we can start actually punishing people for it. Once we as a society have announced, “IT IS WRONG AND THERE SHALL BE CONSEQUENCES” and started educating the masses on consent, we can come back to this conversation.

        • alwayspunkindrublic

          I think that awareness you speak of is advancing…slowly and incrementally of course, but as someone pointed out above, rape was once-and not all that long ago-common fodder for humor in movies and comedy. Maybe it can be again once Trump wins his war on political correctness.

        • rosenbomb

          I think the conversation about forgiveness is relevant now as well…we do have convicted rapists that get let out of prison after serving their time.

          That being said, you are very right.

  • Toomush_Infer

    I musta missed something – is 40 years ago Bill running for President?..

    • (((JustPixelz)))

      Yes, against Melania Trump who has not produced her long form birth cert.

      • SnarkOff

        The more troubling issue is this: Melania’s sexy photos illustrate GOP hypocrisy–that is, that Republicans are willing to overlook the obvious affront to their “family values” B.S. in order to further the GOP agenda. So if that’s the case, then you can’t ignore that Hillary’s husband has a troubling record with women. And if Democrats are willing to overlook Bill’s obvious affront to “women have the right not to be violated” in order to further the DNC agenda…well, what is that but hypocrisy?

        • I Only Like Cats

          But blaming/punishing Hillary for it is beyond counter-productive.

          • SnarkOff

            If we aren’t going to hold Hillary responsible, then we also shouldn’t go after Trump for his wife’s crappy soft porn.

          • Bub the Leftwing Zombie

            I don’t know that we do. I do think it’s fair to point out the hypocrisy of Rethugs on this matter. Does anyone have to imagine what the reaction of the Republicans would have been had similar photos of Michelle Obama surfaced during the 2008 campaign?

          • SnarkOff

            Right–so do I. But if we are going to point out Trump’s hypocrisy, then we should also point out the Clintons’ hypocrisy. Otherwise we, too, are hypocrites.

          • Bub the Leftwing Zombie

            But how can we hold Hillary responsible for Bill’s transgressions? Is there some hypocrisy from Dems on Bill’s history with women? I’d say yes. Do I think a Republican pol with a similar troubling history with women as Bill would be roasted alive for it by Dems? Absolutely! Is that hypocrisy? Yup, guilty as charged. People rationalize and excuse misbehaviour by those they like and support all the time.
            I just don’t see how Hillary Clinton can be made the guilty party in this. This is a politically motivated attack, and I think that the people pushing this narrative know exactly what they are trying to do – and that is damage Hillary Clinton politically.

          • Aquaria

            How is Hillary the hypocrite about Broderick? Bill, yes, but Hillary?

            She’s as much a victim of Bill’s actions as Broderick is.

          • I Only Like Cats

            How is a guy who promotes his wife’s nakedness and attraction and desirability to a bunch of pastors and people think women should go to jail for sex outside of marriage the same as a woman who’s been manipulated into thinking their husband isn’t guilty of a rape he may or may not have committed and has denounced him for all his other sexual shenanigans (the ones she knows about)? That’s shouting “both sides do it!” and promoting false equivalencies.

          • SnarkOff

            I don’t think it is a false equivalency, not in this case. Like I said, it’s a troubling issue. And to say Hillary was “manipulated” is also troubling. If you believe she is a strong woman — and who in their right mind does not believe this — then you can’t possibly believe she would be manipulated into anything.

          • I Only Like Cats

            Trump encouraged his wife and publicized pictures of her (which we’ve never talked about except to mention the religious types don’t see to mind when she does it). Hillary didn’t KNOW (she might still not), she probably wasn’t even aware that Bill had a meeting with Juanita, and she certainly didn’t encourage any of his affairs. Yes, of course it’s a false equivalency! There are pictures of Melania naked and we don’t even know for sure what happened that day! The only person I can think of who’s maybe even sort of in the same situation is Cosby’s wife, who we’ve handled with kid gloves and pity and certainly not blame.

          • Aquaria

            Trump is the one who objectifies women while belonging to a party that screeches about sexual morality. Hillary is not the one who rapes women and belongs to a party that says women deserve to be raped.

            There is a difference here.

          • SnarkOff

            Yes, I should clarify that I don’t think Hillary is a hypocrite.

    • Thatsitfor Theotherwon

      Too busy with the women.

    • Wes Grogan

      Their argument is that Hillary is an enabler for a rapist and personally made sure that nothing came out bad against him, going so far as to threaten the safety of accusers. It’s ridiculous, and I feel for all these people the RNC are trotting out and using for their own gains.

      • Toomush_Infer

        You missed a word – please reinsert the word “tortured” between “Their” and “argument”…

        • Wes Grogan

          Oooh good catch! I did, indeed, miss that!

  • Callyson

    Soon after, Broaddrick says, she ran into Hillary Clinton at a political rally Broaddrick had promised friends she would attend. Hillary shook her hand and thanked her for everything she had done for Bill. To Broaddrick, the gesture felt like a threat to stay silent.

    OK–it is entirely possible that Juanita Broaddrick was in fact raped by Bill Clinton. If that is the case, that is terrible (and TBH, I’m a little less forgiving than Trix is on that point.) It is definitely, at a minimum, a troubling story.

    THAT SAID–I see nothing to lead me to believe that Hillary was in on some conspiracy to silence Juanita. I see no reason to punish the wife for the sin of the husband. And I sure as hell see no value in Broaddrick’s support for Trump FFS.

    • Good_Gawd_Yall

      Every person who has a negative story about HRC, regardless of what it is or why they push it, needs to be asked repeatedly if they actually have imagined a Trumplethinskin presidency, and what they think it would be like.

    • I Only Like Cats

      Women (especially in churches) are often shamed into staying with rapists (“If you take care of him, he won’t do it again!”) and deluded into thinking it’s not a problem/didn’t happen. I highly doubt Bill ever confessed to this, and if he actually did do it, has most likely been lying very strenuously on this point. If he did confess to it, there’s often some manipulation going on the man’s side to make the clearly horrified uncomfortable wife more comfortable with it.

      • Justno

        My own dad told me as marriage advice (totally not kidding) that if I took care of my husband’s needs he wouldn’t go looking elsewhere. And that’s when he told me that’s why he cheated on my mom.

        Not the same as rape, but it’s the same mindset.

        • I Only Like Cats

          That’s terrible and unfortunately I have heard stuff like that before. Yup, the religious books “guarantee” men’s needs get met so they think 1) it’s a need and 2) it must be met.,

    • glennisw

      I find it highly unlikely that Hillary would have known anything about Bill’s personal interaction with Broaddrick – I’m sure he wouldn’t have told her. And it does sound a little paranoid for Broaddrick to read a threat into what was probably an anodyne social compliment/thank you, even while I can acknowledge that she would have been triggered by her experience, if he did in fact assault her.

    • Bub the Leftwing Zombie

      What really happened between Broaddrick and Clinton is, of course impossible to establish at this late date. It is doubtful that either of them is speaking complete, objective truth about those events when discussing them – or are even capable of doing so. Memory is too damn subjective a thing for that.
      What is clear is that Broaddrick hates Bill Clinton’s guts ( probably with good reason) , that she has extended her animus to include Hillary ( probably without good reason), that there are unscrupulous types who are happy to use that animus to politically damage Hillary Clinton, and that those people do not give a damn about the facts or truth of the matter, but simply with how effective a political weapon it can be.

    • goonemeritus

      I find it illogical to assume that Bill would have confessed that he raped a women to his wife.

  • Spotts1701

    My opinion and a dollar will buy you a cup of coffee at McDonalds, but I think he could have done it. Could anyone prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, or even by a preponderance of the evidence? Probably not then, certainly not now. Whatever Bill’s moral failings are, they are his to carry.

  • Thatsitfor Theotherwon

    “I think Bill Clinton could very well have raped Juanita Broaddrick; that it doesn’t make him an evil man, or irredeemable…”

    I give guys who force themselves on women a lot less slack than this. Irredeemable, maybe not, but rape is pretty fucking evil.

    • pstockholm

      Evil deeds are evil. That’s enough isn’t it? To condemn the person morally and punish them legally. Don’t know where “is an evil man” comes into it at all.
      Or, that depends on the meaning of “is”, I guess.
      Oh, wait, that’s didn’t end up in the right place at all.

      • Brazilian Fart Porn

        At 19, I lost my virginity while I was passed out drunk. No consent. I still don’t think the guy was evil, or intended for it to be “rape”. He was a horny teen that I had been flirting with, so he assumed consent. There is room for growth for these guys. Back in the 80’s it was norm, not WRONG. Bill is not power hungry. Trump is power hungry, and I can see him sexually assaulting a woman to prove his prowess and power.

    • SnarkOff

      IK, R? It’s a weird sentiment coming from Wonkette, which has nothing but hate for, say, Bill Cosby, or Brock Turner… http://wonkette.com/602723/brock-turner-leslie-rasmussen-good-english

  • beatbort

    Bill Clinton’s erections cost Al Gore the election, IMHO. Which gave us W. Which gave us Iraq and Afghanistan (and current situation in Syria and al Qaeda).
    However, Bill Clinton is not running for President in 2016.

    • Lizzietish81

      What? No blame for Ralph Nader’s erection?

      • pstockholm

        Unsafe at any speed.

        • King Beauregard

          A twisted, mangled wreck that is beyond any hope of repair.

          • beatbort

            I agree with all of the above, to some extent. But Clinton’s dalliances gave enough ammo to the Republicans that Gore was tarred by association. Yes, Nader played a role. Yes, the Supreme Court ultimately fucked over the electorate. Yes, Gore was “stiff” in a different way from Bill Clinton.
            However, that election should not have even been close.
            Gore had stature, we were in a time of economic upswing, no raging wars, etc.
            It should have been a cake walk, or at least the margin big enough so that the Supreme Court couldn’t fuck with the results.

          • Aquaria

            Don’t forget the role the media played in trashing the man for every single thing he ever said or did.

            And then there was Tipper and the native media revulsion for her, for flirting with censorship, which the media will never, ever be on board with.

      • anna rampage

        Hopefully he would seek medical attention if it lasts for more than 4 hours…

      • natoslug

        Ralph Nader’s dad’s erection was much more destructive.

    • King Beauregard

      Bill’s popularity ROSE because of the Monica Lewinsky scandal.

    • anna rampage

      I’m not sure I’d agree with that….

      I found Gore to be quite stiff and not authentic at all while he was running for President. The funny thing is if Gore would have been himself, much like what we have sen from him post election, he likely could have won the election.

      • Aquaria

        He was really in a tough place in that election. If he acted too folksy or warm or smiled too much, or any other more casual persona, the belief in certain DNC circles was that it would have made people think of Clinton, which would have made them think of the blow jobs, which potentially would have hurt him. He was constantly having to walk this tightrope of trying to run on the Clinton success without running on Clinton, with trying to be Presidential without having it associated with the (then) POTUS, and so on.

        It must have been exhausting.

  • goonemeritus

    For what it worth Trump is way more likely to be a rapist than Hilary.

  • King Beauregard

    Deep in my heart, I think Bill Clinton did what he was accused of. I also know that society has advanced by leaps and bounds in its interpretation of women’s rights when it comes to dating, and what is clearly “rape” today wouldn’t have been a few decades ago. That is to society’s credit, but it makes Bill Clinton look especially bad. (And Bill Cosby … let’s bear in mind that, if a black guy could rape 60 women, there’s got to be a white actor who raped 200.)

    There was a “Malcomn in the Middle” in 2001 or so, where Malcolm was at a party with a drunk girl who liked him; she fell unconscious, and Malcolm … well, he didn’t take advantage of her, but he felt like an unmanly chump until his brother Francis told him it means he’s not a “creep”. Let that sink in. Fifteen years and what was once “socially tolerable creep” has become “clear and obvious rapist”.

    And it used to be a normal thing — even a point of comedy — that guys would try to force themselves on women on dates. Again, we recognize that as rape today.

    Oh well, for all the painful cognitive dissonance we’re struggling with now, it’s evidence that we’re learning and taking our principles seriously, which is something.

    • I Only Like Cats

      I think the weirdest part of that being acceptable in comedies geared towards men is in romantic comedies, drunk women (who can’t consent, clearly) often try to force themselves on (usually willing and very interested) men, who tell them, “no, you’re drunk, come here I’ll tuck you in” and I think there is a clear cognitive dissonance between what men and women understand about sex. Also, all men should be forced to watch romcoms, so they get it.

      • pstockholm

        The distillation of our age, and only surviving artifact in 10,000 years, will be romcoms. I’m guessing Notting Hill, because “classic”.

        • I Only Like Cats

          To be honest, you got to admit, those movies would make us look better than we actually are (and also too, funnier).

          • pstockholm

            Like Wonkette.

        • rebecca

          gross.

          • pstockholm

            Sorry, history’s not fair.
            AIs are gonna fall for that shit hard.

    • Vegan and Tiara

      I agree with everything you said, except that I don’t believe Bill Clinton is a rapist. I believe he engaged in extra marital affairs with consenting adults, and lied about them (who wouldn’t?), but I also don’t think it’s any of my business.

      • King Beauregard

        It’s certainly guesswork. And full disclosure, part of why I’m saying I think he did it might be because I don’t want to be like the rubes who can’t imagine their boys ever doing anything wrong.

    • Spotts1701

      I think that’s where my struggle is, to be honest. It’s a lot easier to have this discussion today in 2016. But in the 1970’s in a conservative state like Arkansas?

      • King Beauregard

        For me, the big problem is, if I say that I believe Juanita Broaddrick, that just means some pro-Sanders creep is going to say “a-HA! So you support rapists! Why are you in love with rape?”

        What i would say to adults is: Look, what Bill did (may have done) was more acceptable for the time, even if we now recognize how clearly wrong it was. I’m not sure how to penalize a person retroactively for that.

        • SnarkOff

          Oh my god you guys. Listen to yourselves.

    • SnarkOff

      I started college in 1983 and remember attending a required information session about campus rape. Even then, it was understood that having sex with a passed-out woman meant that the sex was nonconsensual, which meant it was rape. These are not new concepts.

      • King Beauregard

        I started college in 1985 and I knew it too. Just because I knew it does not mean that degrees of understanding and acceptability were universal. BTW my college didn’t have any such required information session; in the mid 80s they were still trying to get across the notion that “if she says no it’s rape”. Hard to believe, but there was a time when “date rape” wasn’t considered “real” rape.

      • Aquaria

        Your experience was nowhere near universal.

        I was in college in 1983, and we didn’t have anything like that going on. There wasn’t even an organization on campus that addressed rape at all, and there wasn’t one on any of the college campuses in any of the equivalent colleges in a 250-mile radius around me. The idea of colleges addressing rape was in its infancy at that time, in most of the colleges of the nation.

        I know this because several of us who had already been raped were fighting to get colleges to address the problem at all, and only a handful of colleges had done so.

        Bully for you for being in one of the colleges that did it, but know that you were the exception, not the rule.

    • HanBarbara

      Interesting that the same bunch that has politicians who are willing to say that women will lie about rape in order to get an abortion are so very sympathetic to this woman’s allegations.

  • goonemeritus

    This story has convinced me that I will never be able to vote for Bill Clinton for President.

    • Ms.MLG1979

      At last, a thing we can all agree on!!

  • The Hillary Clinton assassination squads weren’t really up to par back in the 80’s, were they?

    • Wes Grogan

      It wasn’t until she managed to break the union that they really came into their own.

    • anna rampage

      Ben Ghazi was just getting his start, and was not the most effective assassin back then…

  • Vegan and Tiara

    One of Bill Clinton’s alleged victims, Kathleen Willey, claimed the Clinton’s killed her husband, Vince Foster, and possibly her cat.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-boehlert/trump-resurrects-talk-of_b_8916700.html

    I find it bizarre that the man who dedicated his life to crucifying Bill Clinton, Ken Starr, now has nothing but nice things to say about Clinton.

    • Serai 1

      Tells you a lot about the particularly crazy allegations, doesn’t it?

    • tomamitai

      Well, they are both associated with Jeffrey Epstein ;)

  • TeeRaak

    “Her current husband–then her lover–says Broaddrick told him about the rape within a few days of the event. Broaddrick was, at the time, married to another man, whom she didn’t tell about the assault.”
    https://media4.giphy.com/media/x0GfPS6lOy784/200w_d.gif

    • Jenny

      Pretty much the best response to this.

  • Juan de Fuca

    For the record, I don’t “always” believe women. I think some women are messed up, and some women lie.

    Is this a safe place for me to shout, out loud, that some women (like men) are BATSHIT CRAZY? I’m talking about you, old highschool girlfriends who tracked me down on FB, looking for a way out of your marriage, your town and your church, trying to break up my own family and drove me off Facebook?

    • Wes Grogan

      Of course. Gender is no guarantee of sanity. Both genders have a large number of examples of batcrap crazy.

    • Daisy

      What the fuck!? That’s creepy.

      • Juan de Fuca

        It’s Facebook, Daisy. It’s always Facebook. Choose your boyfriends/girlfriends wisely in college and think hard about who you accept as a friend on FB long after college. The road to hell and all of that…

    • natoslug

      I didn’t know you knew Rachel. So glad she’s moved on to you.

      • Juan de Fuca

        I told her you were at the beer/food fest the other day. My bad for that. A guy’s gotta do…

    • Msgr_Moment

      It’s Lori, right? Right? I’m glad I took care of her.

    • limberrat

      You dated my ex?

    • alwayspunkindrublic

      #notalloldhighschoolgirlfriends

      • Serai 1

        #notallexes

    • Vegan and Tiara

      I’ve had women accuse me of “using” them for sex. It was more like two consenting adults had sex, and then I realized that for whatever reason things weren’t going to work out between the two of us. I’ve also been on the receiving end of the “I don’t think this is going to work” conversation, yet I’ve never said “oh, I feel so used!” That being said, I’ve also been stalked by men who asked me out on a date, and I said “no thank you.” I guess there is plenty of crazy to go around on both sides?

    • SnarkOff

      Oh, please tell me that the crazy ex put the moves on you by saying, “Hey, Juan to fuca?”

    • Jenny

      This is why I have a no coworker and no one I’ve ever boned on my Facebook. My life is eventful enough, no reject hanger ons allowed!

      • Vienna Woods

        Yes to the no co-worker rule!

      • Aquaria

        I don’t even have my husband friended on Facebook. My FB exists to make comments on some sites, and to do some college projects here and there. I otherwise have zero use for it.

    • SecludedCompound

      Yeah, there’s a wide gulf between proceeding with an investigation as if the charges are credible to “we must believe a person no matter the circumstances until it becomes glaringly obvious that they made it up.” I think a number of very public false accusations lately have kind of put the kibosh on this particular bit of nonsense.

      I for one don’t care if that bit of dogma is good feminism or not, because it’s nonsense.

    • Aquaria

      And people wonder why I don’t do the Facebook thing, and why I never looked back after high school.

      The last time I talked to someone from my high school in person was 1986, and that was only because I ran into her at the mall.

      That was six years after high school. I lived in the same town then where I grew up, and I had zero to do with anyone from high school, even then.

      The last time I communicated with anyone from high school after that was in 2004, when, entirely by accident, I was looking for a picture of my high school to show my husband, and the picture I chose happened to be on a website that was set up for my grade’s 25th reunion. There was a blurb about them looking for me, and I sent an email to the site admin, who happened to be that same person from 1986. I told her I would never go to a reunion. It wasn’t that I hated them or anything, only that high school was over and I’d moved on.

      My name was discreetly removed, and I haven’t bothered with any of them since.

  • natoslug

    Puppies and kittens, man. Puppies and kittens. Le sigh . . . maybe it’s time to get outside and enjoy my vacation and not relive the 80’s, which, to be honest, were pretty good days for me, even if I did have questionable tastes in clothing . . .

    • Major_Major_Major

      As horribly bad as the 70’s fashions were, we had to outdo ourselves in the 80’s.

      • natoslug

        My memories of the 80’s are filtered through a haze of Calvin Klein. Ah, to be young and drunk and living in the cinderblock beauty that was Ft. Bragg, N.C..

        • Major_Major_Major

          Honestly, I am more of a product of the 90’s than the 80’s, and we had some real questionable fashion choices as well. Those HUGE fuckin’ pants, WTF were we thinking trying to skate in the big-n-tall dept at 145 lbs soaking wet.

          • Spotts1701

            So….much…plaid flannel.

          • Major_Major_Major

            95 fucking degrees and still with the flannel…yep I miss those days

          • Juan de Fuca

            Z Cavaricci’s? Don’t lie

          • Major_Major_Major

            Haha, there was a kid in the neighborhood that rocked the Z Cavariccis. I didn’t know anyone that wore Zubaz though.

          • Jenny

            They hid awkward classroom boners well. So I was told.

          • DinkyBossetti

            JNCOs forever! I would 100% wear JNCOs if I could find a source and if it were acceptable for a lady of my age to go out in public wearing them.

        • Juan de Fuca

          Good times, good times :)

      • Aquaria

        My 70s memories weren’t so bad. But I was a model who got to wear some of the stuff from the store where I worked, as free advertising. It was the high end stuff, which wasn’t quite as “70s” as what the street clothes were about, so maybe that colored my perspective. If you switch out the weird wrap with a blazer, this was one of the dresses I actually got to wear to school, of all places:

        http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-P6EUJSIIpw0/Vj9Ch05licI/AAAAAAABBzY/P2KpHiwO5Uc/s1600/ysl-yves-saint-laurent-rive-gauche-spring-1978-ad-campaign.jpg

        Oh–and y’all don’t even want to know how much that dress cost. Even by today’s standards, it was shockingly expensive.

    • Suttree

      What do you mean? I have that same jacket now! Although it’s a welding jacket, I’m not wearing it for fashion.

  • Msgr_Moment

    Bill Clinton is Schrodinger’s rapist. He is simutaneous innocent and guilty. For God’s sake, please don’t open the damn door.
    (Warning: comment contains trace elements of not snark.)

  • (((JustPixelz)))

    True story: A family member told my wife she and I had had sex years earlier when she was a teenager. THIS NEVER HAPPENED! It’s a very dark and deep chasm to be falsely accused of something unprovable like that. Because said family member had made (provably) false statements about other things, my wife said she believed me. Maybe she does, maybe she doesn’t. I’ll never really know.

    • Vegan and Tiara

      I’ve also been falsely accused of something, and it’s a HORRIBLE feeling. On the other hand, it’s got to suck to be a woman, and have people doubt your story if it is true.

      • Bub the Leftwing Zombie

        I worked the night shift at a 7-11 many years ago. Part of my duties was keeping an accurate accounting of lottery ticket sales. I once received a phone call from my manager at home, claiming that there was a discrepancy in the numbers and that I must have stolen some. He gave me an hour to “come clean” and tell the truth, or the police would be called. I will never forget the feeling I had when I hung up the phone. I was terrified. I knew I hadn’t stolen anything, but how could I prove it? What if I lost my job? What if I was arrested and charged? It was the worst feeling I’ve ever had.
        Of course it turned out to be a mathematical error on someone else’s part. My manager was nice enough to apologize for accusing me of stealing. I was so fucking relieved I didn’t even feel angry about it afterwards.

        • Villago Delenda Est

          I would have started looking for a new job immediately. Your manager was an asshole.

          • Bub the Leftwing Zombie

            Agreed. The manager left shortly afterwards, and the one who took over was a nice guy. I was very glad when I quit that job.

      • Serai 1

        *shrug* It’s what you’re taught will happen. I never even bothered to tell anybody until years later, because I knew nobody would take my side.

    • I Only Like Cats

      Here’s the thing. That’s terrible, but because of instances like that, even if people believe the person (in many cases a child or teenager) their knee jerk reaction is to protect the perpetrator, and feel much more for them than the victim.

      • (((JustPixelz)))

        Accusations involving sex have a presumption of guilt.

        Another true story: A couple high school girls accused their male teacher of some kind of sexual misbehavior. This was front page news. Huge public outcry. The teacher was immediately suspended or fired. A couple weeks later the girls recanted saying they made the story up because they were mad about a grade he’d given them. That was not such a big story. I don’t recall if they were charged with false report.

        • I Only Like Cats

          No, no, they really don’t, and my PTSD therapist would tell you that hardly, if ever (she says maybe one percent) of sexual abusers face ANY consequences. My dad sexually abused my sister for YEARS, and my mom got a protection order against him, but even though he confessed to it, he was never charged, and the church refused to turn him in. Again, my therapist told me this is very common (see the Duggars). For every story you hear, there are a hundred more that never come to light.

      • Serai 1

        That’s rather a blanket statement there. Plenty of people won’t protect the perpetrator.

        • I Only Like Cats

          Sadly it is not, and if you want proof you should talk to trauma therapists because they will tell the kind of blanket behavior they get when they inform the family the brother has attacked the sister (see: the Duggars, and be aware that theirs is a common reaction).

  • bupkus23

    Sorry – I’m not going to express my opinion of whether Juanita Broaddick is to believed or not. I am pissed that, once again, this issue is being brought for political purposes.

    That’s all this is – ratfucking. Whether or not there is a statute of limitations on rape, rehashing this now is nothing but clickbait for Buzzfeed and rightwing political smearing.

    And the only reason I see for people stating that they believe Bill could’ve done it is the thirty or forty years of Clinton hate passing as “fact”.

  • Just because of this, I am not gonna vote for Bill Clinton for president. I refuse to do it.

  • Scooby

    It’s taking a long time for Hillary to get around to assassinating her.

    • tihond

      Time Travelin’ Vincent Foster has a long list to get through.

    • Serai 1

      I figure she’ll do it the day before the inauguration. Just to tidy things up before she starts work.

  • Jeff in the desert

    So, I am kinda not sure what to believe and what could we do with this to achieve justice and despite the horrendous nature of the alleged crime, I conclude nothing to see here, move on.

  • Wild Cat

    “Remember: Everytime there’s another ClintonRape article, another Christopher Hitchens earns his wings in Hell.”
    —Clarence (from that dull, overrated tripe of a film)

    • Serai 1

      I was going to upvote you, but then you pissed on Jimmy Stewart’s leg.

      • Wild Cat

        I thought Tom Hanks pissed on Jimmy Stewart’s leg.

        • Serai 1

          Whatever, dude.

    • Aquaria

      Good thing there is no hell, then, thank goodness.

  • going4baroque

    Dick Morris was campaign manager of Bill Clinton’s successful 1996 bid for re-election to the office of President. His tenure on that campaign was cut short two months before the election, when it was revealed that he had allowed a prostitute to listen in on conversations with the President.
    Dick Morris’s comment on Hillary’s response to “bimbo eruptions” that threatened Bill Clinton’s election to the Presidency:

    “What really turned me off was what I call secret police. When she [Hillary] hired this fleet of detectives to go around examining all of the woman who had been identified with Clinton. Not for the purpose of divorcing Clinton. Not for the purpose of getting him to stop but for the purpose of developing blackmail material on these woman to cower them into silence that had a Nixonian quality that I hold against her and I continue to.”

    http://www.breitbart.com/video/2014/10/31/dick-morris-i-left-when-hillary-hired-secret-police-to-go-after-woman-victimized-by-bill/

    • Tiaras&tweetybirds

      really?really?dick crazy morris & breitbart?really?

      • going4baroque

        really!

        • SecludedCompound

          And you’ll get the exact kind of reaction that that deserves: “You’re an idiot to believe anything Dick Morris says to Breitbart, Larry King, or anyone else.”

          • going4baroque

            it is funny, what people do with what they see, there is nothing written about what I believe or disbelieve in the video that was linked to – I don’t have beliefs, beliefs are poor substitutes for saying truthfully “I don’t know”. I have no problem saying that I don’t know. I don’t have to form a belief as a defense mechanism, or an ego support, or a hedge against fear or death. So, I don’t consider an idiot as one who has beliefs, but a stupified brain has plenty of them, for sure

          • Aquaria

            That’s exceedingly dishonest, to say the least.

          • going4baroque

            To say the least, honestly, sir or madam, you don’t know. There is no psychological authority, altho you can sure play like you are one. That’s your business, your pleasure

          • SecludedCompound

            Then why reiterate what dick Morris, a known moron, believes or postulates?

        • Serai 1

          You’re so cute. *pats your widdle head*

    • Shibusa

      This is the man who told Laura Ingraham that Hillary Clinton was conspiring with the UN to create a global EPA. He calls Obama a dictator. His bitterness about being punted by the Clintons after the hooker fiasco long-ago overwhelmed his rationality.

    • Dr. Rrrrrobotnik

      Dick Morris’ credibility on all topics, up to and including the sky’s current color, is zero. He’s actually kind of a Bill Kristol kind of negative-credibility, as whatever he says, any sane person believes the opposite all the more. You got anyone else?

    • Bemused

      You understand that Breitbart is Not Reputable, right? That they don’t have any journalistic integrity? That they report stories already debunked as false?

      • going4baroque

        the video is an interview with Larry King, that is the extent of breitbart’s involvement, it is Larry King and Dick Morris, breitbart is incidental, not germaine at all
        you understand that, right?

        • Bemused

          Link direct to the interview, then. Most of us will look at a breibart link and laugh. Also Dick Morris is famously anti-Clinton.

          • Shan the Libtart

            This is the same one who came in and posted pictures from Conservative Treehouse showing what was supposedly a gun on the Philando Castile’s lap when he was shot.

          • thenearesthippie

            It was at this point that I blocked it.

        • SecludedCompound

          You understand that Dick Morris is one of the least reputable people in Washington DC, right?

          • going4baroque

            Actually, the reason I posted it was just contributing part of what is “out there” that supports Brodderick’s narrative. In light of Hillary’s referencing problematic “bimbo eruptions” it is not inconceivable, but I am not saying it is true or false

          • SecludedCompound

            Surely, signal boosting everything that is “out there” on a given subject isn’t a valid way of dealing with reality, correct? Care to tell us what David Icke thinks about the election? Maybe what Jill Stein thinks about the validity of fluoridation?

            I mean, come on.

          • going4baroque

            Considering the headline:
            “Let’s Talk About Juanita Broaddrick” why would I want to weigh in with off topic material such as Icke or Stein? I was particularly responding to this part of the article:
            “To Broaddrick, the gesture felt like a threat to stay silent.”
            and to have Dick Morris, regardless of anyone’s image of the man, make a statement that, IF TRUE, could at least in part account for her feeling threatened, might be relevant. It is pretty simple, really.

        • Villago Delenda Est

          Dick Morris is not ONLY a dick, he’s a vile sack of shit. Nothing he “recalls” can be trusted to be anywhere near the truth of the matter…he needs attention, and this is one way to get it.

        • Serai 1

          You understand that nobody is going to take your word for that, right? Breitbart links make us laugh.

        • Donkey Option

          Ah yes, Larry King, that bastion of journalistic integrity. Truly where I go for honest, thought-provoking, well-researched, and hard-hitting news as opposed to random people spouting off with no fact-checking or questioning.

    • Serai 1

      Are you seriously coming here with “information” from Breitbart?

      http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/Serai/Comment%20pics/fm5j7s.gif

      • Shan the Libtart

        It’s been here with “information” from Conservative Treehouse before, too.

    • Bub the Leftwing Zombie

      “What really turned me off was what I call secret police. When she [Hillary] hired this fleet of detectives to go around examining all of the woman who had been identified with Clinton. Not for the purpose of divorcing Clinton. Not for the purpose of getting him to stop but for the purpose of developing blackmail material on these woman to cower them into silence that had a Nixonian quality that I hold against her and I continue to.”

      Dick Morris’ claiming to have moral qualms about anything is ludicrous, aside from the fact that he is a notorious liar and completely unscrupulous.

    • Jennaratrix

      You really have to consider the source; both Morris and Breitbart. I’m not saying none of that happened; I’m just saying you’ll have to bring better proof than that bullshit.

  • Msgr_Moment

    If he was wearing bell bottom jeans or a leisure suit at the time, he should fry.

    • anwisok

      It’s rather likely that he was wearing far less than that, so no fashion crime charges can be brought.

  • It was rape but with the rather stinking caveats that the police would probably not have bothered to investigate and, if it had gone to court at the time, the case would have been dismissed out of hand as “she was asking for it and what’s a man to do?” The mores of the time were that such non-consensual encounters were par for the course.

  • Frank The Rat

    I’m not going to snark or try to make light of this, I’ll just say that having once been a horny young guy who wondered, after the fact, whether I might have been too insistent/forceful with a person who was previously, and up to a certain point that one time, very receptive, “did I commit a crime or at least a personal offense”. I discussed it with the other party a day or so later and she said, “no, no foul, no harm”.

    I will add that this was in 1968 and attitudes about making light of rape didn’t really change for a number of years. I got married a year later, to someone else, and after a time the former person drifted out of my life, as people do.

    I think a lawyer’s opinion on the wrongness of the act would depend on whether one is prosecuting or defending the “offender”.

  • Paperless Tiger

    Broaddrick does not give a date or even a month for the incident. It’s not really even a valid allegation. It’s like, “Oh yeah, Clinton raped me one time, like he does.” As for her injury, Broaddrick testified in a divorce proceeding that her husband around that time used to punch her in the mouth, so that’s no mystery.

    • MrCanoehead

      As someone who is crap at remembering dates, I could buy that part of it. The rest? I just don’t know.

    • I Only Like Cats

      That explains why he didn’t remember an injury…

  • HanBarbara

    Having a hard time with this- and I did go back and read the Buzzfeed interview. Did it happen? First she said that it did happen, then she signed a statement under oath saying that it didn’t happen, and then she went back to saying that it did happen.
    There’s no way to know. I think it’s bullshit for her to claim that she was somehow intimidated by a wife who thanked her and shook her hand. Could it have it been more like she didn’t want to upset Hillary or hurt her feelings? Again we can’t know.
    But to come back and say that she was intimidated by Hillary after the fact sounds like an attempt to politicize the whole thing.
    I am a survivor of childhood sexual abuse, so I understand that things can get very complicated, as can feelings for the abuser.

  • artem1s

    I would have a lot easier time believing this was about victims rights or the definition of rape or whatever if the parties who will gain from bringing it up for the umpteenth time cared one wit about any of those things. They have no interest in changing public policy, laws or public perception to make sure rape victims get heard. In fact, they have pledged quite openly that women should just suck it up and move on (Ivanka would just go get a better job if she was harassed, right?). no one here will ever have a chance to weigh in on this particular case. We may/do have a chance to weigh in on how perception changes on this and related issues. But re-runnning all this is just more of flinging poo up against the wall and seeing what sticks. it in no way advances the discussion of very real problems surrounding sexual assault and how it’s handled by law enforcement and criminal and civil courts. If you have supported Hillary in the past, you are likely to already be aware of these issues and come to some peace with them. This BS is just more of the smear to discourage people who are new to politics from actually looking at policies and historic offerings of the parties and candidates involved. I decided a long time ago Hillary was not responsible for Bill’s sexual behavior and does not need to apologize for her decision to stay married to him. It was her personal decision and I don’t need to know anything else about it.

    • Look Closer

      Conservatives have been trying to take down the Clintons for 30 years. You would think they would learn that they never will!

    • Justno

      This is the most thoughtful comment on this issue I’ve read thus far. Thank you.

    • SadDemInTex

      Very well done, A!

  • It is a complicated thing. The idea of what rape even is has changed just since I was a teenager in the 90s, let alone since the 70s. I had at least one experience back in high school that I thought of as a really bad date at the time, but that would almost certainly be rape by today’s definitions – if it happened to my daughter, that’s what I’d call it. But at the time, it would not have been called that by most people. I am still friendly with that guy, and I’m positive he didn’t believe he was doing anything wrong at that time. Definitely not evil. We both have teenaged sons now, who are being taught all kinds of things that we were not – like that the absence of a “no” isn’t the same as an enthusiastic “yes”, and that “yes” is what you want to get before going on. Or that “no”, doesn’t mean “keep pushing till the other person gives in and lets it happen just to get it over with because they’ve realized they aren’t getting home till they do.” That kind of thing. So yeah, I could imagine, especially at a time when the definition of rape was even more narrow, a guy like Bill Clinton raping someone and not thinking of it as rape. No way to know if that is what happened, but I could picture it.

    What I can’t get behind is blaming Hillary for it. I’m all for believing women when they say they’ve been raped. Including Juanita Broaddrick. But I don’t think that extends to meaning that a woman must believe another woman that she doesn’t know or barely knows over the man she’s married to. I doubt very much that I’d believe a woman who accused my husband of rape either. I mean, I guess he’s physically capable of it, but we’ve been married for a decade and I’ve never known him to be rapey, so I’m pretty sure I would take his word over that of some random woman unless I had a really good reason not to. And it makes no sense to me that Bill would have come home and confessed a rape to his wife. An affair maybe. Not a rape.

    I don’t know what to think about the allegations against Trump either. It wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if a woman accused him of raping her as an adult. As mentioned, at least one wife already did that, and that seems in line with his persona. I would think that he would be capable of that. I would also not be surprised if he were accused of domestic violence, assault – any number of things, really. I am prepared to believe a whole lot of terrible shit about Donald Trump, because he gives every indication of being a terrible person. I have real trouble picturing him raping a 13-year-old child, though. Even with how weird and pervy and handsy he is with his daughter, or the way he trades wives in for younger models, it still just doesn’t seem like his kind of thing. If nothing else, he’s so brazen about everything else that I feel like there would be some smoke around that fire long before now – even just rumors of him having a thing for jailbait, something. (Of course, maybe I just haven’t heard them.) I know that you never really know, of course. It just rings wrong for me – which could just be me not wanting to believe it, of course.

    • I Only Like Cats

      The way he talked about Tiffany as a baby makes me think it is possible, especially since if you see women as objects, you also see girls as objects. He hung out with a pedophile and he could have done it just to try it. I read the accusations and believe that at least part of it’s true (especially since she’s willing to come forward).

      • That’s true, he did objectify an infant, apparently just because she was a female infant and females are things to him. In fact, I’m pretty sure that everyone who isn’t Donald Trump is just a thing to Donald Trump.

        It’s entirely likely that I just can’t wrap my brain around it. The fact that there’s apparently a witness gives me pause. I just think that if kids were his thing, he would be terrible at keeping it quiet all these years. But I didn’t think that the Subway guy was a pedo either, until it became obvious that he was.

        • I Only Like Cats

          Men like that take it where they can get it and force them to keep their mouth shut (I’m actually really worried Ivanka has been abused by him). They don’t need to be pedophiles, because they see all vaginas as sex objects.

          • Serai 1

            Yeah, guys like that usually aren’t focused on young girls, but they’ll take anything that comes along.

        • tomamitai

          I am ashamed to say that many of my gender have some really disgusting ideas about the age of consent. I can’t even begin to count the number of times I’ve heard assholes say shit like “old enough to bleed, old enough to breed” or “as long as there’s grass on the field, it’s OK to play”. Fortunately, I no longer have to associate with guys like that, one of the lesser mentioned benefits of living on Social Security.

    • tomamitai

      Claims of rapey-molesty goings on among rich powerful people have been circulating on the internet just about as long as it’s existed. Various names have been bandied about, but until Jeffrey Epstein was convicted of soliciting an under-aged girl, they’ve mostly been viewed as fodder for the tinfoil hat crowd or the sleaziest of political mudslingers. Now, any celebrity whose name ever showed up on the flight logs of his private jet is being tarred by association, including Trump and Bill Clinton, although so far I haven’t heard of any girls coming forward to claim Bill assaulted them on the flights or at Epstein’s island. But then, the campaign isn’t over yet….

      • Serai 1

        Claims of rapey-molesty goings on among rich powerful people have been circulating on the internet just about as long as it’s they’ve existed.

        Fixed that for you.

        • tomamitai

          I was referring to the internet. Claims like that about rich people pre-date it by millennia.

      • Aquaria

        Hunter S. Thompson said back during the Roxanne Pulitzer insanity that incest was pretty much the norm for the rich, because who else was good enough for their kids, but them?

  • BearGHAZI

    So….. lock him up?

  • Relativicus

    I agree.

  • Serai 1

    It’s a difficult question. I’ve always felt there were two aspects to rape – the experience of the victim and the intention of the perpetrator. I know from experience that it’s possible for a guy to rape a girl and not even know that’s what he did. And I don’t know that I would call doing that, regretting it and changing your entire viewpoint because of it “bad feminism”. Seems to me feminism is a mindset people come to for all sorts of reasons, and “fuck me, I was a colossal fucking assholes, Jesus I can’t ever do anything like that again because REAL PEOPLE RIGHTS REASONS OMFG THIS SHIT CAN NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN” certainly seems like a legitimate train of thought.

    That said, fuck me, the 70’s – like pretty much every other time in history – was a time when men felt really entitled to casual sex, and it could be pretty fucking tiresome and exhausting to hold them off, and sometimes it was just OH DO IT ALREADY AND LEAVE ME ALONE, and in that situation you kinda shut off and close your eyes and try to get through it, and it sure as shit can feel like rape, and on the victim’s side, that’s all that’s necessary for it to be rape. But on the perpetrator’s side… well, like I said, he might not even know what’s going on. Especially back then, before all the swell consent and communication issues were talked about. I can especially see it if it started out okay and then turned into something she didn’t want to continue. Because the 70’s were a time when screwing casually was a thing fairly widespread, and if you didn’t, you were square and a drag, and who wants to be that? Oy.

    So I’m sad to think Mr. Bill did this, but I can see it happening, sure. Sex can be fucked up and complicated, and nasty things happen all the time, from “could you get me a band-aid for this fucking scratch?” to full-on horror show crimes.

    In other words, plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose. *sigh*

    • The Witch of Endor

      Thank you. You’ve said everything I wanted to say and couldn’t find the words for.

      • Serai 1

        It’s a fucked up subject, one that I honestly wish I couldn’t weigh in on with anything relevant. But hey, shit happens and you deal with it. Not very well, in my case, but that’s life. It basically sucks with some nice patches mixed in.

    • HanBarbara

      One thing that troubles me is that it seems like men who commit this kind of assault- full on physically overpowering a totally non consenting victim- not groping or garden variety sexual harassment like Roger Ailes quid pro quo, tend to have multiple victims. I read her words. This isn’t date rape. It’s full on stranger rape. The only difference is he didn’t jump out of an alley.
      Given that more women have not come forward, I’m really having a hard time with this.

      • Brazilian Fart Porn

        I am going to say that those who do it for show of power (Ailes, Cosby) tend to be serial. A possibly assumed one night stand in the 70’s is not a show of power.

        • HanBarbara

          You know, this brought up a memory that I’ve kind of blocked out. It was
          what I thought was a job interview with an older man at an art gallery in NYC. I was a very naive young woman- my first hint should have been when the owner locked the door. I admit I was flirting. The man grabbed me and kissed me the same way. I pushed him away and bolted for the door. I was very lucky because he unlocked it. The last thing I ever wanted to do was talk about it. Because I flirted, I was very ashamed of what I considered to be my own stupidity. If the whole thing had turned into something else I doubt I would have gone to the police.
          I guess my point is that it takes a certain kind of man to physically overpower a woman who pushes him away, says she has a boyfriend, and isn’t interested. As big a sexual asshole as Bill Clinton can be, I’m having a hard time seeing this as a misunderstanding, or something he would have done.

          • SDGeoff

            I get it.

        • Serai 1

          It was also a time of lots of “game-playing” in sex. We were exhorted to Try New Things! and Play Games In Bed! and Dress Up Because It’s Fun! Role-playing can certainly be nice, but with inexperience such things can get out of hand, and the idea of Anything Is Great! sometimes lead guys to think the girl just NATURALLY understood what he was doing, so lay on, McDuff! This shit happened. A lot of my encounters back then (I was one of those naive, enthusiastic girls) were fraught with land mines and situations that a teen just can’t handle well. It could get unpleasant, but one of the things we were learning was to own our sexuality and our bodies. The troublesome side of that was the pressure to “accept responsibility”, often when it wasn’t warranted at all. It was a time both freeing and imprisoning, FUCKING GREAT and totally fucked up.

          As Spock would say, HUMANS. FEH.

        • SDGeoff

          However, in the 70’s in the gay community, a one night stand was a fairly common method of destroying another person’s relationship in order to move in on his or her partner.

  • Look Closer

    Okay. Because of this, I am not going to vote for Bill Clinton. I will vote for Hillary instead!

    • Yr. Gma

      Amen.

  • dirkmcquickly

    Do I think he had sex with her? Yes. Do I think he raped her? No. Why? Because the RW, which has had it out for the Clintons for 25 years, has tried and failed to peddle this kind of bullshit before. They just have a terrible track record which goes to the credibility of Broderick and the RW propaganda machine.

  • Jenny

    According to my mother and the ex’s mother everyone was sexing up everyone in the 70’s. Who is the daddy? Probably everyone.

    • Aquaria

      It’s not true. Some of them were. My mother and stepfather weren’t. Most of the parents of my friends weren’t.

      The only major difference between what had been happening to that point, and the 70s, was that everything was done and talked about more openly than it had been. Maybe more experimentation, but more adultery?

      Sorry, no. Back when JFK was president, my father had his pick of an entire neighborhood of bored housewives who were always up for some hanky-panky, and their husbands were definitely finding action on the side when they weren’t with their wives. Most of them weren’t that way, but many were.

      The difference was that people didn’t talk openly about sexuality when my mother was married to my father, and they were talking about it when she was remarried.

      • Jenny

        I think humans just like to bone. The 70s just had a lot more drugs and alcohol (and people) to bring it out in the open.

  • King Beauregard

    Women shouldn’t always be believed, but they should always be listened to and their accounts given proper critical and analytic attention, rather than dismissed for the sake of convenience.

    False accusations do happen, but there isn’t some army of women out there flinging wild accusations because there isn’t enough drama in their lives.

    That said, I’ve got a counter-anecdote: I got accused of trying to seduce a married woman. This is the story she told my friends behind my back, but would never bring up when I was around, imagine that. I lost quite a few friends that way but they weren’t worth keeping. (Side note, I heard from one of those former friends a few years later that she’d later done the same thing to him too — false accusations of a seduction attempt spread behind his back. I couldn’t feel too sorry for him.)

    In my particular case, there was a pretty good way to figure out who was lying: in the presence of these friends I confronted her about what she was alleging, and she denied ever saying anything of the sort. So I told the friends: “all right, there you have it: if I leave the room and she claims that I tried to seduce her, you know she’s lying”. Sadly, most of those friends were too dim to figure it out.

  • sadboy

    So after I have lived through eight years of a Clinton presidency, a Hillary in 2008 campaign, the Duke University lacrosse rape case, the retractions of Rolling Stone over ‘Jackie’ and her inconsistent accusations, after Broaddrick had several opportunities over the course of many years to have Clinton charged or to cooperate with other ‘victims’ to charge him, yet refused at every turn, now I am supposed to believe and/or care. Pardon me, but no.

    If Broaddrick is wrong, she has borne false witness and she is either a liar or insane. If Broaddrick is right, then her lack of action has enabled a serial sexual offender to rise to the highest office in the land. There are other women who have suffered from rape and have faced their attackers in court in order to see that justice was done, even in the face of retribution. If Broaddrick could not muster enough courage to do so, even when given support and encouragement, her credibility is zero.

    • Aquaria

      One thing that makes me wary of her is that she doesn’t seem interested in speaking out against rape in general. It’s all about her and attacking the Clintons. Not about speaking about the horror of rape itself, and standing up for victims.

  • George

    My dad is 74 yrs old. I’m fairly sure he never raped anybody, by today’s or any time period’s definition. Fairly sure. But I do know he’s held some fairly paleolithic views of gender, sexual identity and even race.

    I’ve also watched him adjust his views, learning from the world as it moved forward, all around him. He’s pivoted, moved the goal posts. He’s become a better, more modern man. He also isn’t exceptional in this way. I worry more, for obvious reasons, about the people who haven’t grown out of old-world prejudices, no matter how much enlightenment and pressure from the outside world. How deep does their pathology run?

    So yes, I fully believe some very bad, indeed, sexual misconduct was possible from a young Bill Clinton. But, like my dad, the evidence is everywhere that he’s a man with a much-changed POV.

    Does that mean we should move on from talking about his misconduct? I dunno. Time has solved any legal considerations. But morally…I don’t know. But if we hold Clinton accountable for the actions of an extremely young man at a time when such actions mostly defined him as “healthy,” don’t we have to hold all our parents accountable for their own transgressions. And everybody has some, if we retro-graft their actions to the codes and mores we live by today.

    Today, nobody, and I mean nobody, can not take “no” for an answer, or put a drug in someone’s drink, or in any other way force another person into a sexual encounter they do not want without facing the consequences of that act. Because WE KNOW BETTER. And the law has caught up.

    And yes, serial rape is a different animal. Bill Clinton and Bill Cosby are lightyears apart in this regard, and no amount of moral equivalency will convince me otherwise.

    The KKK, was risible from the day of it’s creation, but are my parents culpable, today, for the racial slur or homophobic taunt they let fly in 1971? Especially if they are demonstrably different people now?

    Hey man, at least Clinton was on the right side of those things way before my dad. That’s something. Right?

  • Bitter Scribe

    This is sordid and disgusting, and makes me think much worse of Bill Clinton.

    That said, it irritates the hell out of me when people who are consistently disdainful of victims of rape and sexual harassment, and have always opposed women’s rights and feminism in all its forms, are suddenly social justice warriors for Juanita Broaddrick. It’s nothing but a cheap, stupid political game. Get back to me when you advocate for victims whom you can’t use as a rhetorical weapon.

    • Aquaria

      Very good point. There’s no dithering about “legitimate” rape when they can use an occasion to slam a Clinton.

  • Angela Ruzzo

    One issue that is not properly discussed is the effect of drugs and alcohol on the mindset of both the rapist and the rape victim. This is particularly true of teenagers, whose tolerance levels are usually quite low. Men and women can both experience dramatic personality changes when under the influence of drugs and alcohol. I have seen this happen a hundred times, both to teenagers and mature adults. Perfectly nice, ordinary people can turn into very weird strangers when they are drunk or stoned, and they will do things that would never occur to them when they are sober, and which they are deeply ashamed of afterwards. I don’t know if drugs or alcohol were involved in Juanita’s and Bill’s case, but it’s something to consider.

    When I was 24 years old I went to a company Christmas party where at least 90% of the employees professed to be highly moral and religious people, and there was an open bar, and it wasn’t long before I saw people in their 30’s and 40’s and 50’s dancing on tables and removing articles of clothing and using profanities. It was an eye-opener for me.

    • Alan

      I believe that’s the main discussion on virtually every college campus.

      • Angela Ruzzo

        It seems to me that the people who need to be discussing it on college campuses are not listening. I live in a college town, and the amount of binge drinking is astonishing, but it is nothing new. I went to a Frat party once in 1975 and people were so drunk they were passing out or throwing up or both, and doing both can be deadly. My date got so drunk he passed out and I just left him there and walked home.

  • Donkey Option

    At this point, it has been so long that I think they are both telling the truth as they remember it. The more we retell a story, we change it. We change our own memories. I bet if we had a Betazoid here to read their minds and tell if they were telling their true memories, that person would find that they were both completely honest. But at this point, I just feel badly for her. I know she was hurt, but I think she’s also been used by Clinton opponents and forced to relive this day after day as pain and hurt. She can’t heal, because if she gets over it and can actually heal, she will be abandoned by those who are using her. She has been victimized by those people who don’t care about her well-being but instead about what she can do for them, to be used as a tool for bashing Hillary Clinton who never had anything to do with it, no matter what Bill did. I’m not a psychiatrist, but I’m pretty sure that reliving the crime day after day for the benefit of others doesn’t help one heal from a psychological injury. She needs actual help from people who really care about her, no matter what happened 40 years ago.

    • Serai 1

      I’d prefer a Vulcan, thanks. Betazoids don’t read thoughts, only emotions. That’d just put us back at square one.

      • Donkey Option

        Aren’t they telepaths? Half-betazoids like Deanna can only read emotions, but her mom was fully telepathic from what I can recall, and what the internet is telling me.

        • doktorzoom

          I for one feel very ex-Catholic guilty that this particular bit of fanlore is what I really wanted to comment on in relation to this horrible story, and so I won’t.

          • Serai 1

            *raises eyebrow* Logically, you just did.

          • leemoder

            Schroedinger’s Sehlat

        • Serai 1

          Oh sheesh. Yeah, you’re right. *facepalm*

          Always wondered why they bothered with Deanna, her readings were so vague as to be almost useless sometimes. Weren’t there any Vulcans or full Betazoids they could hire?

          • Donkey Option

            I know! Well, Vulcans could only read minds through physical contact, so I don’t know if one would be as helpful for the long-distance thing. And I thought that the Betazoids were part of the Federation (or were they just an ally?) but I think they sort of hand-waved this as full Betazoids find non-telepaths annoying to deal with or can’t control their abilities or something like that? From a story-telling perspective, I understand since a full telepath would solve a lot of problems before they even arise, but it did strike me as weird.

          • Spotts1701

            Well, there’s also the whole privacy aspect – it’s considered extremely rude, if not outright criminal, in the Star Trek universe to read someone’s mind without their permission.

          • Serai 1

            Well, the Vulcans certainly had that attitude. I guess that’s why having them as Ship’s Reader on every vessel isn’t SOP. (“You want me to do what now? Yeah, NO.”) Maybe Betazoids find telepathy so easy and natural, they don’t see a reason to restrict their use of it. It’d be like telling a human they’re not allowed to look at anything on this planet just because the inhabitants have no eyes.

          • sadboy

            Pretty sure that forced mind melds (like what Spock did to Valeris in movie 6) was close to the Vulcan idea of rape.

          • doktorzoom

            Captain, I’m sensing…a halfassed script!

            (technobabble follows)

          • Bub the Leftwing Zombie

            Bingo! I am always amused by the long, involved conversations about arcane lore and plot points that rabid fans of sci-fi movies and TV shows get into. Just remember – IWITS (it was in the script). Galaxy Quest did a wonderful job of affectionately poking fun at these people.

          • Serai 1

            It’s…it’s causing…PAIN!!!!

    • I Only Like Cats

      A strong Ocompan could probably find the real memories or a really good mindmeld from a Vulcan (Vulcans have been known to find the real truth of the memory buried beneath).

    • Cindyinencinitas

      Q would sort it out. We wouldn’t like the outcome, probably, but he would know the whole story.

  • Jgb979

    I don’t ever want to Discredit rape victims or make it sound like allegations should be ignored:

    But it’s EXTREMELY important to remember why our legal system is based around the concept of “innocent until proven guilty”

    There’s no quicker way to incite a violent mob of negative opinion than with rape allegations, and yet in some rare cases they are completely made up. (The Duke Lacrosse case, the UVA rolling stone story). In the age of Internet vigillante justice, damage will be done to those unjustly accused before the truth ever comes out.

    It’s a delicate balance between legal and moral ethical concerns, but one isn’t legally a rapist until they’ve been convicted of such in a court of law.

    • Daisy

      *breathes* This. I feel torn up most of the time, because it’s considered to be awful if you don’t immediately believe the alleged victim. But I can’t do it. The justice system has it’s flaws, but “innocent until proven guilty” isn’t one of them. This is the only thing I will say on this story, as it is a touchy one that I initially did not want to comment on. But I had to acknowledge this.

      • Serai 1

        I take the attitude not of belief, but of listening. Hear everything with respect and then make a decision, if it can be made.

        • Daisy

          That’s a good one to have.

    • I Only Like Cats

      Someone made a really good point downthread about listening. Many people say that, but when it comes to robbery and such, you don’t have to prove you had a thing and it was stolen, you have to say what was stolen and who they looked like. Additionally, most cases are pleaded out (even when the evidence doesn’t exist or is clearly fabicrated) so it makes me more than a little pissy when people shout, “innocent until proven guilty!” over all rape victims, ever, because that’s how this Cosby mess happened. So to recap, always listen to victims before you say “innocent until proven guilty” and actually, please don’t say that to rape victims.

      • Jgb979

        Of course not one should always listen and treat all allegations seriously:

        But if the standard of rape is less than “innocent until proven guilty”, How do you treat those who are falsely accused?

        To address your robbery example: you still have to show the one you’re accusing of robbery actually committed the crime

        • I Only Like Cats

          How you would treat an alleged anything else (when it comes on Dateline or 48 hour or whatever), which is like you’re not quite sure they’re terrible demon in disguise, but you’re mostly sure (and yes, that is how Americans treat most accused criminals and no, I’m not including not violent drug offenders, which have nothing to do with this accusation). I honestly don’t know and I couldn’t tell you. I’m not sure anyone here could, it’s not like there’s a lot of rape trials to go off of (but I’ve heard of a lot less than one person’s testimony putting someone behind bars).

    • HanBarbara

      True. In the old south, most black men were lynched over claims that they had raped (or even disrespected) a white woman.

  • Truthiness2U

    My default is to believe the woman. I know that a huge problem with rape has been the victim (women and children) not being believed, crimes not being investigated. Or hell even to this day we get the bullshit ‘can’t ruin the life of an actually convicted rapist (if he’s a young white male only, natch) by giving him a sentence that might ruin HIS life. I mean, so glad we’re all so worried about the life of the convicted rapist, and not say, the justice owed his rape victim.

    Feh. The whole thing makes me very ragey.

    But this woman’s attempts to put any part of this on Hillary strike as not every woman-friendly either. When her so-called evidence is as paltry as what sounds like a generic statement anyone would have given to another person, and nothing more that I can see.

    And while I get that people can feel comfortable bringing stuff up later, to this,”When Paula Jones’s lawyers came knocking, she told them that nothing had happened, she says, because she wanted it to go away.” IIRC, Broaddrick has a sworn affidavit saying it didn’t happen. Which is fine to later recant. But if we’re going to bring up Ivana’s sworn testimony about her rape, which she later denies, then wouldn’t it be on level with that?

    This story make me all sad for the people raped/sexually assaulted, angry about how it’s still treated to this day. But while my default is to believe the woman, I’ll be honest and say I my default isn’t happening with this particular case. At best I’ll just say, we won’t ever know the truth. Because this reminds me more of the mother suing Hillary for Benghazi, and less like Bill Cosby.

  • Hairstrike Alpha

    Actually Editrix…I think that woman Trump raped when she was 13 years old could be telling the truth. Jeffrey Epstein is a notorious pedophile and she has a witness to corroborate her. As for Broaddrick, who knows if she’s right but I do know this: she’s been exploited by wingnuts. The right ‘loves’ Juanita Broaddrick because she helps push a narrative just like they ‘loved’ Paula Jones for the same reason. If Bill Clinton really did rape Juanita Broaddrick as alleged why hasn’t over the last 40 years any AG agreed to prosecute? Why hasn’t the wingnuts who’ve embraced her tried to push for one? I don’t know if she’s right or not but I do know my bullshit detector has long been going off on this one. Paula Jones took him to court for harassment…..

    • I Only Like Cats

      I think PTSD and the right wing who tout her out have freaked her out into thinking Hillary is going to go after her if she ever pressed any charges, but as long as she was just a little fly, she’d be OK. Or something like that. As someone who’s been through sexual assault (my sister went through quite a bit of sexual abuse as well and was completely broken by it) I can tell you some things. Both are pretty believable stories, although I do believe Broaddrick has warped the details in her mind and may not be as cut and dry as she believes.

      • Hairstrike Alpha

        Yes I know but my point is that if this crime was committed why was it never litigated? Conservatives have been harping on Juanita Broaddrick for decades and we have seen from Benghazi and every other little thing “why was their bisque on the white house menu?!? INVESTIGATE IT!” that they will go after any kernel no matter how small to defame their political opponents. Plus Clinton got impeached for lying about a blowjob when lying about a rape is far worse. See now I’m making myself even less willing to believe it….

        • Aquaria

          Most rapes are never reported even now, because women fear they won’t be believed, and that’s even when they’ve been beaten or stabbed or who knows what else when they were raped.

          Forty years ago? In a he said/she said like this one?

          It’s even less likely that she would have thought anyone would believe her.

          This isn’t saying that she’s telling the truth or not. Only how not reporting it says zilch about what happened.

          Also: Statute of limitation laws may have applied.

          • Hairstrike Alpha

            I understand your point completely- the point I was making was that if there really was something to do this why didn’t the GOP investigate it? Why didn’t it come up during the Paula Jones trial the way Monica Lewinsky where Clinton had to answer questions about it under oath? The Juanita Broaddrick thing has been a wingnut bugaboo going back a long way and they bring it up every opportunity they get. I’m just saying but you’d think at SOME point the facts as to whether or not an actual rape occurred would have been tried in an actual courtroom.

            I totally agree about the reluctance of victims to come forward given the trauma/stigma/pressures associated (which is a horrible shame) but this hasn’t exactly been a secret….know what I mean?

  • Hairstrike Alpha

    Actually, it would well be within the persona of Donald Trump to threaten a woman he raped with murder. The man has well known associations with mob types and as a psychopath the girl would be just a play thing object to be used and abused as he saw fit. Trump has always viewed himself as being so above everyone so why would you NOT believe the allegations, because they are sordid? Why would you buy Broaddrick’s story but not Jane Doe? Just curious is all.

    • I Only Like Cats

      He could have been “joking”. It certainly does sound like something he’d say, after watching him say he’ll carpet bomb the Middle East.

      • Ducksworthy

        That’s only because they told him he couldn’t use nukes.

  • alwayspunkindrublic

    Obviously a matter that touches many of us very deeply, regardless of specific POV. Nice that folks feel safe enough and valued enough here to share such intimate and often painful stories, without fear of attack by those with differing opinions. And thank goodness for the anonymity!

  • Alan

    I don’t know. I really have an issue when someone waits over 20 years, until someone is rich and famous, to make such claims. In denial? Sure. Don’t want your business to become public? Sure. But why then suddenly awaken from your denial and make it all public 20 years after the fact when there’s obviously something to gain? She claims she made an excuse to her husband who claims he has no recollection of the incident. She was having an affair at the same time with the guy she would later marry. He claims he does remember. Seems plausible that she made it up so she wouldn’t get caught doing something she shouldn’t. Almost every day I read about somebody making up claims that they were a victim to cover for their own bad behavior. You can debate this forever but nobody will ever actually know. Seems pointless to me.

  • Jenny

    This lady jumps out in front of the media every so often and that’s what I don’t get. If you are so scarred you don’t want to talk about it or you want this person to be punished by law.

    This stuff about him regulating her job and taxes and stuff. Really lady? You’re that terrified of him but not enough to get on tv to remind him you exist and tell the world he raped you?

    Also too, the governor isn’t out looking at everyone’s tax records.

    And let’s be real he probably would have completely forgotten about you. Maybe that’s it. Maybe he’s the one that “got away” and she can’t stand it.

    • Justno

      Idk. I was raped in the 80s and we absolutely didn’t talk about those things then. However, I remember their names and I’d like to think I’d have the courage to stand up today and talk about it if that person was trying to hold himself out as some paragon of family values virtue.

      I agree her perception of HRC is a bit messed up. Other than that, I don’t see her behavior as odd given the time period involved.

      • Jenny

        Sorry that you’ve had to go through that. And it is one thing to stand up to him, but another to pop up to smear his wife as a enabler/handler. That’s why I characterize her as something else.

        • Justno

          I understand that and agree. I don’t get that part.

  • btwbfdimho

    I can see YOUR NICE GRANDPA doing that, back then.

    Speaking of which, here’s my grandpa on the back seat of the pig, next to my dad.
    Your line may be true, because people in Uruguay repeat these silly cuarteta:

    Mi abuelo tenía una chancha
    pero chancho no tenía
    qué chancho era mi abuelo
    que la chancha tuvo cría.

    • Serai 1

      LOL, that’s fucked up.

    • janecita

      Entonces tú eres un chanchito?

      • btwbfdimho

        A veces.

  • Joe Beese

    I suspect that our Wonkette wouldn’t have as difficult a time making the connection from “rapist” to “evil man” if we were discussing a frat boy instead of a Democratic president.

    • HanBarbara

      Since you are making assumptions, I will too. It looks to me like you didn’t bother reading the article. Maybe you read the title, but I’m not even sure about that.

    • alwayspunkindrublic

      If you read the posts, opinions run the full gamut, given that it is impossible to empirically verify her story at this point. What most people agree on is that whatever Bill did or didn’t do should not be laid on the head of his wife. As for the “frat boy”, if that is a reference to the Stanford swimmer, he was caught in the act, not to mention other testimony that he seems to be something of an incipient serial predator.

    • Serai 1

      Seriously, dude?

      • Cindyinencinitas

        I, myself, see John F. Kennedy in my mind’s eye with a glow about him as the pinnacle of Democratic presidential wonderfulness, and he was an unabashed sex machine. According to the lore, anyway, but I can totally see it. Was it all consensual? I’m willing to bet there may have been some blurred lines there and I don’t know whether it would knock the sheen off my memory of him or not, at this point. Hard to say.

    • SDGeoff

      An interesting thought. But that is something our society is growing up to accept. When Bill was sowing his wild oats, attitudes were horribly different. As A Olde, I can attest to that! (But I will not assume you were around, as you are probably younger than I am, like many here!)

      • John Orendorff

        I’m an old, too, and an issue really existed as to whether or not “no” meant “no.” The idea was that she really wanted it, but was obligated to say “no,” but was grateful later to have her “no” ignored. At least that was what some of my companions told me. Dumbass that I was, I always took “no” to mean “no.”

        • SDGeoff

          Same here. I managed to save a lot of potential friendships that way.

    • Justno

      It was a far different time. Today’s college students have been raised in an entirely different environment.

      STFU.

      • Justno

        With votes, I guess

    • Jen_Baker_VA

      douche canoe fucknozzle asshole who needs to eat a bag of salted rat dicks I can see, but ….evil? IDK, I don’t even consider random Frat boys evil, though I would like to violate the rules for radicals upon them every time they smugly gloat about their conquests.
      But still, not evil.

      • janecita

        I don’t know, but some of those rapey, frat boys seem pretty evil to me.

        • Jen_Baker_VA

          I think it is a fallacy to fall into labeling people as evil. Except Darth Cheney because that man is cracked, yo.
          I kid, I kid.
          I think people do /evil/ but are not, themselves evil. If that makes sense. I’ve seen far too many people far too fall only to turn things around to believe otherwise. But of course, you have to be willing to turn things around. Maybe that is the true litmus for what we would term evil? Being able to recognize you did wrong and then seek to do better?

          • janecita

            Exactly, but unfortunately, a lot of these “frat boys” think that they did nothing wrong to begin with, so there is no reason for them to change.

          • jowgajen

            Attribution bias. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attribution_bias

            This explains why someone can shoot up a movie theater but still be called a good person by their friends and family.

            It also helps put a framework on the idea that someone can do bad things without being inherently bad.

            That said, there are evil people, or at least people with core evil motivations. They just aren’t as common or as fixed in their behavior as we tend to believe.

        • Dawn Abraham

          Incredibly mega-stupid, to me, but consciously trying to harm others is a special category reserved for a very small percentage of men and women.

    • Melissa Blank

      Based on what previously stated opinions that you can cite showing bias?

    • janecita

      A lot of Democrats still adore Bill Clinton, and excuse his reprehensible behavior.

      • Jen_Baker_VA

        No one is excusing his reprehensible behavior. Some are wondering if it is true, others are wondering if it is false, but not one person has given an excuse to reprehensible behavior. Be fair in that.

        • janecita

          A lot of Democrats that I know justify him. “Boys will be boys”, “Kennedy had better taste”, stupid shit like that.

          • miss_grundy

            How about some proof? I want you to produce evidence because, if not, then you are just another right-winger trolling this website.

          • janecita

            Lol, yup that’s just me I’m a total right winger!!!

          • miss_grundy

            LOL, yup, you love to troll….

    • Bub the Leftwing Zombie

      Simplistic. In any case, it is hard, or at least it should be, to conflate what Bill Clinton is accused of in the Broaddrick case with what Brock Turner was convicted of.

      • jowgajen

        The Brock Turner uproar wasn’t about his behavior, it was about the lack of punishment. I hold that everyone, including Brock Turner, would have been better served if the judge had imposed a reasonable sentence.

        • Bub the Leftwing Zombie

          I definitely recall people being outraged by his behaviour, as well as his refusal to take responsibility, his father’s disgusting comments minimizing his offense, and his mother’s letter crying “we will never be happy again” and “Why HIM? WHY? WHY?”.
          The ridiculously light sentence was icing on the cake.

          • H0mer0

            as the mom of two non-rapey sixteen-year-old boys, WTF???
            Did someone leave her cake out in the rain?

    • Jenny

      Oh lordy

    • laineypc

      What needs to happen is that the stories should be initially reported without names and as little prejudicing context as possible. “A famous politician is now being accused of raping a person they met at a fundraiser 40 years ago.” Let people argue the merits until they get good and convinced and then reveal who it was.

    • Mezzaluna

      Did he get her drunk or drug her? Did he post pictures to the Internet (obvs not possibly in this case, would the equivalent be a Polaroid?)? Did he invite his friends to have a go? That, in my mind, is the difference been shitty asshole and evil fuckhead.

    • ibwilliamsi

      I think it would be neat to see inside of other people’s heads and be able to tell when they are lying, or maybe just fudging a little. Can you teach me how to do that too? It would make life so much easier.

  • thenearesthippie

    I’m permanently and deeply skeptical of any accusations against Bill Clinton made by the RWNJ conspiracy machine. The one thing I’m certain of is Ms. Broaddrick’s new “friends” couldn’t care less about what may have happened to her 40 years ago.

    • Serai 1

      Yeah, they’ve pretty much shit the bed when it comes to allegations against the Clintons. Too many years of trumped-up bullshit masquerading as real concerns. Cry “wolf!” enough times and nobody believes you anymore. (Except the addled, of course. They’ll believe anything.)

    • ibwilliamsi

      I think they might buy her some plastic surgery, though, like they did that god-awful bitch Linda Tripp.

  • jowgajen

    I don’t know if he did this. No third party knows if he did this.

    The two parties involved probably don’t exactly know if he did this – memories get rewritten as you get older, often in the direction you want them to go. In the case of Ms. Broaddrick that is likely to be in a worse direction than what actually happened, and in the case of Mr. Clinton that is likely to be in a better direction than what actually happened.

    No one is the person they were 40 years ago. Your personality, values, and your perception of reality change over time. A slippery weirdness that most of us simply ignore. We look at our past selves through the lens of our current selves.

    We know Bill exploited his position of power for sex. We know that is his weakness, his chief flaw both in discipline and decency. As we move further from the Lewinsky affair, which has been confirmed, it becomes more clearly wrong. We would like to think of our leaders, public figures, friends, family and even ourselves as neatly understandable. But we are not.

    The very act of wanting to be a better person pushes you in that direction, and behaving better cements that behavior until it becomes essential to your being. This is the seed of redemption. This process also, sadly, works nicely the other way.

    • Paperless Tiger

      Speaking of third parties, the least you expect from an accuser is an approximate timeline. Broaddrick didn’t give one, not even the month of the alleged incident. She didn’t remember. The timeline must have been stitched together by a third party. This is obviously not just an individual accusation, but rather a group effort. As for Clinton, he evidently had a consensual affair with Monica Lewinsky, but love affairs are hardly exclusive to people in positions of power.

      • jowgajen

        Technically consensual, certainly legal, but still immoral. He was the most powerful man in the world and she was an intern fresh from college.

        • ibwilliamsi

          And I still don’t care. I’m not ever going to care about any adult that Bill Clinton has consenting sexual relations with so long as there is no exchange of anything of real (as in “real”) value.

          • H0mer0

            reminds me of the joke about what a WASP says after sex (“Thank you, I’m sorry, it will never happen again.”)

        • thewendyb

          I read something about “Getting my Presidential knee pads.” What could Monica have meant?

  • janecita

    I can’t hold against Hillary the fact that her husband is a disgusting pig. I believe that she stay with him when they were younger because of love, and later on because she had political ambitions. I wouldn’t try to excuse all the shit that he did, but it shouldn’t be used against Hillary, after all Bill is not the one running for president.

    • Melissa Blank

      That sounds a little sexist to suggest she was somehow incapable of fulfilling her political ambitions without Bill when she, it’s hard not to argue, was actually postponing her own ambitions by staying with him and putting his ahead of hers in priority.

      • janecita

        He was the one that was a governor first and a president later. She was ambitious and smart enough to take advantage of that. It isn’t sexist, I don’t think that Hillary would have had a chance in hell to be elected president in the 90s, not because she wasn’t accomplished, and smart enough, but because of our country’s mentality towards powerful women.

        • Melissa Blank

          Yeah. Kind of like the mentality that frames them as being conniving, untrustworthy opportunists who latch onto powerful men just to advance their own aspirations. I get it.

  • Celtic_Gnome

    Juanita Broaddrick gets to join the hallowed company of Patricia Smith as women the GOP doesn’t give two fucks about except as a weapon against Hillary.

  • SophieCT

    I don’t see Bill as a rapist. Philanderer, yes. Rapist, no. Perhaps Juanita felt that saying No to his advances was not an option? I don’t know. I wasn’t there.

    There is too much history of the Clintons getting blamed and investigated for things they didn’t do.

    • gekkobear

      We could listen to the victim?
      Naah, tell her to put some ice on it and shut up.

      Lets dismiss some more rape victims out of hand… This is fun.
      I never knew being a feminist let me be so mean to women while defending powerful men.

  • GodEatGod

    How dare you bring nuance and complexity to an issue? Where’s the yelling? Where are the accusations? Who am I supposed to hate out of this? It’s like you want me to be…understanding of the foibles of other human beings. What kind of politics is that?!?!

    • Dawn Abraham

      I come here for the jokes as much as the posts, but this thread is one of the best.

    • doktorzoom

      “Where’s the yelling? Where are the accusations?

      Twitter, mostly. And in some now-deleted comments.

  • Bill Slider

    If today you decide it would be convenient to announce that 40 years ago you were raped, my first question is, what was it for the last 39 years, and what if I find it convenient to ignore your sorry ass?

    • zerosumgame0005

      in particular when in the late 90’s Ken Starr was looking to “investigate” ANYTHING Bill and Hillary had ever done AND the RNC would bankroll (at least for a while, neeneener Paula Jones) to get it into court.

    • angelmeat

      She has been telling this story for years, no one would listen because the Clintons are infallible to dipshit liberal evangelists

  • jmk

    This has always been complicated for me… I believe her, in that I believe that Bill “forced himself” on her at the time (that crap about Hillary “threatening” her, I do NOT believe – am I really supposed to buy that Bill scampered home and told her??). My own experiences qualify that belief, though – a few years after this incident, I was raped while on a date with a guy I knew casually as a friend of a friend. I didn’t even know to define it as rape – I mostly blamed myself because he must have thought I was easy or something – because at the time, there were no such terms as acquaintance rape, much less date rape. In all the time since, as society’s awareness of rape grew and I gradually put a name on what happened, I have always been aware that the guy in question would never, ever have dreamed that he had committed rape at the time, and probably has no idea that he did so to this day. It may even be that if I reminded him of what happened, he’d be horrified – I hope so, anyway – because things have changed, and it’s difficult to remember just how entitled to women’s bodies men felt at that time…even men who are now committed and vociferous feminists.

    It’s not a cop-out or being “in the tank for Hillary” to recognize that things really were different back then and that people have grown in understanding and awareness since the 70s.

    • One of my more horrifying restaurant stories:

      I used to work with a very lovely, very sweet, very voluptuous young lady. She was (and still is) smart, sassy and the kind of person who gives you hope for the future. She was also skeevenip for every dirty old man in the county. The rest of us happily ran interference for her, because we cared. Anyway, one day one of her … uh, more vocal admirers came in and I intercepted him on his way to talk to her. Once I had his order all squared away, I asked my standard, “Could I get you anything else?” He nodded over my shoulder and said, “A camera.” I blinked and replied, “Excuse me?” He nodded again and repeated his request. I turned around, and sure enough, he was “admiring” my co-worker, who had bent over to pick something up. Then he began a long monologue about a job he had in the seventies.

      It was at a nightclub, he said. And there was a special room in the place with a balcony overlooking it. The staff, he claimed, would slip a little something into the drinks of the women they found attractive, and they would take them into this room and do what they wanted to while people on the balcony would look on. After all of this, he shook his head, and I expected him to finish his (COMPLETELY INAPPROPRIATE) story with, “The seventies. What were we thinking?” or something similar. Instead, after shaking his head, his comment was, “If you did something like that today, I bet you’d get in trouble!”

      YA’ THINK?

      I imagine the expression on my face was a little priceless as I told my coworker what he said and informed everyone in the place to not let him get within speaking distance of her ever again.

      Some guys apparently really didn’t get it. Others apparently still don’t.

      • jmk

        Good lord.

      • JD Mulvey

        Whatever happened to America’s moral compass?? This is part of what they mean when they say “let’s take our country back.”

    • Ranina

      I completely agree with you. Those were the days when “no” didn’t necessarily mean “no” and we were all having “sexual-liberation” and didn’t really know what to do with it.

    • parkii

      Yes, yes, yes. For all the talk about whether or not men can rape and be sorry and not do it again and be good people, that’s assuming that they even understand what they did. This happened to me more than once, and I’d be shocked if any of them ever recognized it for what it was. (For me it was the 80s, things were really only just starting to change.) I tell my sons all the time that it’s amazing to me how much the world has changed in this regard, and how lucky they are to be living in a wholly different era.

  • Dutchman

    I am from the I just don’t know school of thought on this. Since I wasn’t there, thank you Dog, it’s difficult for me to make that judgement. Would Bill cheat on Hillary? Absofuckingtively. Did he rape Juanita? I just don’t know.

    What I DO know is that there have been 938 million investigations costing 811 brazillion dollars by every type of horrid person from the right for a period spanning decades that have shown us nothing other than the fact that Bill Clinton doesn’t think a blowjob is sex.
    He’s wrong about that just in case you were wondering. My skeptic meter tends to be skewed toward belief in Bill and Hillary.

  • Mezzaluna

    I just finished reading the Buzz Feed article and haven’t started the comments yet. I guess I agree with Rebecca that is likely that Bill Clinton sexually assaulted this woman and Rebecca’s assessment of his take on the assault. I just don’t see why this is Hillary’s fault. I don’t believe she knew anything about it at the time she spoke to Ms. Broaddrick.

    • beavertank

      I believe the usual answer you’ll get to that kind of question is “Because Hillary is evil, so of course she was secretly watching through a crack in the door cackling the entire time and probably even told Bill to go to it then undoubtedly threatened Juanita Broderick with death or other horrors to keep her silent because that’s just how the avatar of Satan acts.”

      • jowgajen

        All of the Hillary “scandals” are only scandals if you start with the assumption that she is nefarious.

    • uniquename72

      She enabled a rapist by helping to attack the victims. Repeatedly. For years.

      Of course, she also voted for the Iraq War. How many rapes do you think occurred as a result of that? Tens of thousands? How many more as a result of her actions in Syria and Libya?

      Of course, those were mostly brown women so they don’t count as much. /s

      • Mezzaluna

        Yes. I see your point as one Senator among many who voted for the Iraq war, Hillary is personally, nay single-handedly responsible for all the rapes and other atrocities committed by Daesh. Trump was right! Holy fucking shit! Also I seem to recall Hilliary Clinton beating Paula Jones with a spoon and punching Monica Lewinski in the gut with a broken beer bottle. Jog on.

  • miss_grundy

    I worked at a university in a deeply red county in Pennsylvania and Pres. Clinton campaigned there. I have never seen so many Republican women who were agog over him. He definitely has charisma and I don’t think he had to do much to get a woman to have sex with him. So, I have problems with this very convenient story.

    • JD Mulvey

      I agree. Folks of a certain age may recall the spate of articles that came out shortly after he was elected about women having sex dreams involving Bubba.

      Even the Paula Jones stuff seemed pretty tame: He once dropped his pants and said “kiss it” –which is undoubtedly pretty crass –but then when she refused, he zipped up and left, with no apparent effect on her career or anything. That makes him a boorish pig, but not a sexual harrasser or a rapist.

      I don’t expect rightwingers to grasp the difference, especially when they can score some points against a political enemy by intentionally misunderstanding.

      • David Smith

        Actually by definition that is sexual assault, and would make him a sexual harasser. Don’t believe me go try it to someone where you work who is subordinate to you.

    • Roni Raven

      Sigh.
      Men do not rape because they can’t find willing partners. See: Cosby, Bill and Ghomeshi, Jian.

  • ViveLaRes

    So this one time, my mom told me that when she was a kid in the 1940s, My Nice Grandpa™ (along with Grandma) was into wife-swapping. That was the last time Mom was allowed to share childhood memories.

    • jowgajen

      It’s my personal conjecture that the Clintons have what used to be called “an arrangement”. Apparently that’s still a scandalous idea.

      • JD Mulvey

        ^This is why the internal workings of a marriage are nobody else’s bizwax.

      • angelmeat

        All of your weirdos treat the Clintons like they’re fanfiction. Jesus christ

      • I’ve always wondered if that was the case too.

  • ibwilliamsi

    Hmmm… “President whose husband didn’t quite get that having sex with a woman not his wife in a hotel room in the 1970’s might not have been consentual” vs “President with staff who does business with Vladimir Putin, asks Putin to hack into the government’s computer system, and suggests someone might want to deal with his political opponent using their 2nd Amendment rights”.

    I’ll take the former. And for what it’s worth, when Hillary is President I couldn’t give less of a shit if Bill gets 20 blow-jobs a day at the residence, so long as the women – or men – are of age and have consented. It just doesn’t matter to me.

    • angelmeat

      Rape abetter/apologist vs “Big Bad Man With A Fictional Tie To Russia I’ve Invented Because The Cold War Is Still Happening Guys” hahaha you fucking idiot

    • minmod
    • gekkobear

      Or, you know. are well paid by his buddy Jeffrey Epstein; or just aren’t allowed to leave. Because owning underage sex slaves is also something the Democrats are totally cool with.

      Hey, don’t be offended. Trump was also a close pal with Epstein; the Republicans are ALSO ok with rich guys owning underage sex slaves.
      So it’s not just your side willing to cover up and ignore sexual slavery of minors for political gain.

      So long as the rich guy owning underage sex slaves supports your party financially; he gets a free pass; and nobody is supposed to care about what he did.
      Thank goodness Feminists are all-in for Democrats and will throw girls as well as women under the bus for the party; or that guy might have gotten REAL jail time; not the slap on the wrist the Democrats set him up with.
      Oh, sorry… that one is on Democrats.

      The DA who gave him the sweet cushy plea deal was a Democrat.

      But hey, I’m sure it was all good; you didn’t hear any complaints form Democrats-First-Feminist-Second Feminists, did you?
      13 months in jail for owning underage sex slaves must be the correct punishment to liberal feminists.

  • Dog Gone

    Makes sense to me.

  • J_JamesM

    Not to diminish the severity of the crime, but the time for this discussion was back when BILL Clinton was running for/being president. I haven’t the slightest bit of doubt that Hillary was clueless at the time, possibly still is—assuming it happened at all. The story does have a ring of truth, and regardless of whether it is or not, it is tragic that someone as obviously intelligent and talented as Hillary had to fall in love with someone as unfaithful as Bill, but she doesn’t deserve to be punished for Bill’s maybe-crime. Unfortunately, it will probably be history (and his own conscience if it exists) that punishes Bill, not a court of law—just as it did for Jefferson and other rapist presidents, if they existed.

  • JD Mulvey

    Shaking hands and thanking someone for her help is TOTALLY a threatening thing when it comes from the evil lady whose every move is a grave threat to the republic.

  • Roni Raven

    Just off the top of my head, I can’t think of one man who has raped, been sorry, and not done it again, without having gone to prison, that is.

    • How would you know?

      • Roni Raven

        It’s not scientific, to be sure, but I do know a heartbreakingly high number of women who have confided in me that they were raped. Not one has ever said her attacker apologized, which I would expect from someone truly sorry for his actions.

        I can’t think of any public examples either.

    • flawedplan

      It happens all the time in families, including fathers and step-fathers who come close to abusing children but manage to control themselves.

      • Roni Raven

        I don’t understand how coming “close to abusing children but manage to control themselves = rape someone, be sorry about it and not do it again.

        • flawedplan

          Right, it’s hard to understand abuse of children. At least some abusive parents will be tormented about it, understand what they’re doing is totally unacceptable, and take steps to overcome their behavior. My parents did not do that. The first time I talked with a parent who did want to stop I didn’t think straight for days.

        • Momofpeanutty

          Here’s an article that touches on situational sex offenders, which is what flawedplan is referring to:

          http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Fall2002_40464_7.pdf

  • Slavakitty

    Hey, Rebecca.

    I dutifully read through this entire thread prior to posting, just to make sure my post wasn’t already covered. Also, since this struck a nerve, I had to wait until my hands quit shaking. Well, quit shaking so much.
    You apparently missed some salient points in the article you linked to about the 13 year-old. Shoutout here to HairstrikeAlpha, because he picked up on some of it, but I have some to add.
    You believe Ivana because she made her accusation under oath, but how does that differ from the former 13 year-old’s statement in the second court filing? (Or even the first, which was dismissed because she filed in pro per and, not being a lawyer, had a technical mishap.) Also, and this is probably the part that makes my blood boil, she was just a 13 year old girl when it happened. Most 13 year-olds sleep with stuffed animals and watch children’s shows. According to her testimony, he threatened her life and that of her family if she came forward, and he mentioned a missing 12 year old to emphasize his point. I’m 53 years old and that would probably be enough to shut my mouth. Also, it is germane that the “party” was at the home of Jeffrey Epstein, a Level 3 Sexual Offender. It has taken a great deal of courage for her to come forward now, knowing that the threats to herself and her family still exist, and that most people will doubt her credibility as you do. She comes forward now, not seeking attention, but because she views her attacker as a very dangerous man.
    I spent 11 long years trapped in Family Court, trying to prevent them from granting sole custody of my young daughter to her father, because when she was 3 she returned from visitation with him with severe genital abrasions. We took her to the Sexual Assault Trauma Center, but she went into hysterics only after they brought out the video recorder to document the injuries; indicating she was frightened by the equipment, *possibly* because he had filmed her while she was being traumatized. She subsequently revealed that he had also threatened to kill her if she ever spoke about the incident, and slapped her face for emphasis. I mention this because it took 11 years to finally convince someone that I was not simply fabricating accusations to alienate the child from her father, and I lost physical custody and was put on supervised visitation for a year and a half during that time. So blaming the victim and accusing them of leveling false accusations cuts pretty close to the bone. The woman would have to be insane to seek out the the soul-killing skepticism that would be the result of any kind of accusation, even one corroborated as this one is.

    • Shan the Libtart

      I’m so sorry.

      • Slavakitty

        Thank you. I only share this narrative because it is instructive. Nobody in their right mind would make a frivolous accusation, because the punishment for any kind of accusation, legitimate or not, is profound.

    • rebecca

      Kitty, you may very well be right.

      • Slavakitty

        *Blush.* Sorry for the rant. Guess something must have triggered me?

        • rebecca

          I didn’t find it ranty at all. I thought it was well-spoken. I’m not sure what it is about her claims that strike me as off, but she does have one witness. Maybe it’s that they’re both unnamed, although you can only imagine the shitshow if they weren’t using aliases.

          • Slavakitty

            Not blaming you for doubting her. It’s difficult to imagine how brutal the defensive response to rape allegations can be, unless you experience it yourself. Pedophiles and their apologists can be especially vicious. That’s why I have no doubt that Woody Allen is guilty; he used the classic gaslight tactics to discredit Mia, going so far as exploiting her adopted daughter, whom he had previously ignored. The weird part is that these guys all seem to follow the same instruction manual. Once you recognize the preferred tactics they are impossible to miss.

  • NCSteve

    Here’s the thing that always pops into my head every time this woman’s name comes up: “Thunderball.” Specifically, Bond’s conduct toward the nurse at the health spa in that movie and the window it shines on the mores of the time and the way they’ve changed.

    I’ve seen that movie dozens of times. Even in the 80’s, and most certainly in the 70’s, his behavior didn’t seem even noteworthy to adolescent virgin hormone bomb me or early 20’s college simulated adult but still only doing 40% of my thinking with the big head me. I mean, he was Bond, right? Of course she really wanted him because every woman, with the possible exception of Rosa Kleb, wanted him. Well, and maybe a few SPECTRE agents who were maybe only shagging him as part of a plot to kill him, who knows?

    But in the 60’s and 70’s and even into the 80’s, every Real Man in that era was supposed to know how to distinguish a “no” that meant no, from one that meant “maybe, if you keep harassing me long enough” and the one that meant “yes!” That was the sicko patriarchy mythology. Because this was still an era of relative female powerlessness and their wants and needs and autonomy were as invisible to us except as mirrors of our own lust. And, of course, aided and abetted by the many women I knew in those days who really had a major thing for Sean Connery that doesn’t really have a close modern parallel for male sex symbols of today.

    But beginning at some point in the late 80’s and continuing through the early 90’s, that part of the movie became increasingly cringe-inducing, first just a bit of a psychic discomfort, then a jarring sense of extreme anachronism, and then, at some point in the 2000’s, it just reaches out and slaps you how unpleasantly, jarringly, uglily rapey the whole sequence is, unmitigated by the “see, she really wanted it all along” resolution.

    There really isn’t any other sex-interest interaction like it in any of the 22 other sex-heavy Bond movies. Over time, you see the relationships growing increasingly more consensual and less misogynistic–at least until you get to the last four, where it’s not so much troubling as part of taking the character back to his literary roots as a cold, ruthless bastard.

    That particularly rapey incident at the start Thunderball forces you to confront the reality of how ugly mores then were and puts you in the familiar dilemma of having to decide to what extent it’s appropriate, and to what extent it’s an immoral cop-out, to give someone a pass for behaving in a way that was acceptable by the mores of the time but reprehensible by today’s standards. Follow that logic very far, and you end up looking at the two decades where Roman Polanski was given a pass for giving a Quaalude to a 13 year old girl and then vaginally and anally raping her because, hey, she looked like she could be a lot older. Follow that logic still further and you end up in the very foul and ugly waters of the whole Thomas Jefferson Sally Hemmings relationship, if that’s even the right word for it.

    And having gone through all of that, I really don’t have any real answers or conclusions or wisdom to offer.

    • Sharoney

      Well done.

  • handyhippie65

    sad to say, every woman i have been with had a story of abuse, even my sister was abused by one of my mother’s boyfriends. no, fucking means no, not put on more pressure. if she is crying when you’re done. you fucked up, and should be (comment deleted) with a fucking pry bar. sorry, but i have no respect for rapists.

    • CT_Katie

      Not every woman I know, but way too fucking many of them. Forced sex has always been rape, whether the govt cared or not.

      Off the top of my head I can count 7 female friends who were raped back in the day, and didn’t report it. They were too scared, for different reasons. And it fucked up years of their lives. They’d have no reason to lie, just to me, separately, when they’d never go public.

      Rape happens far more than reported.

      Sorry, Rebecca, I’m not with you on this one. Raping someone does make you evil.

  • angelmeat

    “Rape is ok when my candidate’s husband does it” – Liberal Feminism in 2016

    • angelmeat

      I had to read this article twice just to make sure it really is as disgusting and laughable as I thought. (It is)

      • chimpevil

        You had to read the article twice??? That would explain the stupid ass comment you made since you obviously sprained your brain.

    • doktorzoom

      Yes, that’s precisely what the article says — nowhere. Bye.

      — Dok Zoom, Yr Friendly Neighborhood Comments Moderator

  • gekkobear

    “It doesn’t even necessarily make him a bad feminist — you know, later, once he stops doing that.”

    Rape a woman;; Claim you’re done, get defended by feminists.
    Because screw women and them being upset about being raped.

    We’ve got to defend powerful men who rape women first and foremost!
    FOR THE PATRIARCHY!

    What, is that not what you’re fighting for?
    What would you do differently if it were?
    Would hypothetical Patriarchy defenders NOT condone rape with a “don’t do it again” nod and wink?
    Oh, it’s because he’s a Democrat? Well sure.

    Hey, if you’re a good liberal Democrat; feminists will defend you for raping women; and ignore/attack the women you rape.
    It’s not a bad thing; you’re just for Democrats first; and women… maybe 2nd, maybe never.

    Were we supposed to pretend Feminism was about anything else?
    Why would we do that,when you’re so clearly NOT for women; but only for Democrats?

    Now defend Jeffrey Epstein; He was a good Dmeocrat.
    So explain why having underage sex slaves ALSO doesn’t make you a bad person; or not a good feminist.
    You’ve already sold out… and he’s rich.
    Why not ask for a donation and cash in?

  • CarlSagan

    I hope you die in a fire.

    • doktorzoom

      Wow, not only a violation of our commenting rules, but also a slur on Carl Sagan’s good name. Impressive.

      — Dok Zoom, Yr Friendly Neighborhood Comments Moderator

  • Let’s talk about Libya. Let’s talk about Honduras.

    Heck, let’s talk about all the neocons (e.g. Max Boot) who are endorsing HRC.

    Maybe you need to rethink what you’ve done with this blog, Rebecca.
    ~

  • VideoClub

    Actually no, I can not see either my paternal “nice grandpa” or my maternal “nice grandpa” (may his memory be a blessing) doing that, recommending that, or even defending any level of what Clinton did or may have done with Broaddrick.

  • What.

    That’s not… what?

    Is that really where we’re at now? “Maybe Bill Clinton did rape that lady, and that’s ok because he’s probably really sorry about it.”? We’re really doing the Mike Tyson defence here?

  • Carter

    Partisanship means defensing rape culture. Way to go guys, I hope every advertiser you’ve ever had abandons this garbage site. You haven’t been funny since Bush.

  • jowgajen

    The Bernitalldownbros have arrived.

  • Calamity Jon

    You know, I’m at least as old as the author of this piece and most likely much older, and I can tell you this with authority – we did not find that behavior acceptable back then. It was rape and we called it rape. Whether it was ever tried as rape, that’s where the culture fell down on its obligation to protect its people. I don’t know what sort of Mad Men fantasy Schoenkoef is indulging where rape was just an innocuous old-timey oopsie-doodle you could make up for with a contrite phone call, but it’s nonsense across the board.

  • sandra350

    This article and the comment thread in support of it is utterly shocking. Atrocious. The level of abject blatant moral hypocrisy is contemptible. What’s worse is that all of you can only imagine that the only people who believe Broaddrick are rightwingers. You are so utterly blinkered, so mindnumingly partisan that you can’t see beyond political partisanship, your worship of Hillary Clinton & your utterly craven need to defend her husband.

    Your forgiveness of Bill Clinton entirely contingent on your support of his wife and – by extension – him. THAT’S IT. If he were Bernie Sanders or anyone else you disapprove of, hell no! You’d be writing a very different article.

    The simple basic unarguable FACT is that this article would NEVER be written if this accusation had been against Bernie Sanders. The only reason you have written this repellent garbage is that you support Hillary Clinton and you must come up with a pathetic disgusting defense & apology of her husband. THAT’S IT. Apparently rape is horrible & unforgivable if it’s committed by Republicans & anyone who opposes Hillary Clinton.

    This garbage article was written by the same cretin who called Jill Stein a “cunty hag.” Jill Stein DARES to oppose Hillary Clinton and you hate her, ridicule her, trash her. Bill Clinton is accused of rape and you just shrug it off and can forgive him.

    And then there’s this garbage: “some women lie” – yes, if she accuses a politician you support, then of course it must be a lie.

    You Clinton robots are so transparent, so morally reprehensible it beggars belief. You are so invested in the Clintons that you throw out all your alleged feminist principles and trash a woman who you would NEVER EVER question if she accused someone else–someone you don’t approve of.

    You’re all hypocrites. You’re beyond hypocrisy. Your feminist principles are as worthless as sand. The only thing you believe in is a political couple who you’ve raised to the pedestal of something they have never deserved.

    I am a woman, 56 yrs old and a feminist. A real one that is – a feminist who doesn’t pick & chose when to apply her principles according to which political candidate I support.

    • jowgajen

      “the same cretin who called Jill Stein a “cunty hag.”

      This belongs on the Wonkette book jacket.

    • rebecca

      No, I said some women lie because some women do. I said I thought Juanita Broaddrick *wasn’t* lying.

      I was trying to engage with her claim honestly because I don’t see a lot of that.

      I don’t think all men who rape are irredeemable. There are probably men you know and love you would be shocked to find out had raped a woman.

      As to Bernie Sanders, what he has to do with anything is anyone’s guess, but about half our staff and half our commenters were Bernie supporters. We could, for the most part, disagree without being terrible about it.

      Until the Stein crew flew in just now, our commenters either disagreed with me or didn’t, but they were all thoughtful about it, and not one of them represented what I had written.

    • natoslug

      Good broad brush there. No, even among us transparent Clinton robots, there is disagreement on this. Some of us have issues with Bill Clinton’s sexual past, and some serious issues with it if Juanita Broddrick’s allegations are true. I don’t know if you are aware of this, but Bill and Hillary Clinton are two separate people, however, so unless she actually knew what he was doing, this is not on her.

  • OrdinaryJoe

    If you are too young or you just haven’t had access to your internet way back machine, people who wanted to bring the Clinton’s to their knees investigated the fukcing shit out of these allegations made by this woman and many others. Those people would have followed the trial into the bowels of hell if that road would have led to the impeachment conviction of Bill Clinton. It’s not that her claims weren’t heard, her claims simply turned out to go nowhere, a trail of false statements, recants, and easily disproved assertions. Just as an example, Broadrick went home and told her husband that she fell but told her boyfriend that she was boinking at the same time that the WBC had attacked her. Ken Starr no less, the most lethal enemy the Clinton’s ever made, a guy who was looking for the thinnest thread that would hang Clinton, decided this one was going nowhere and let it go. Dems need to stop cowering and stick to the facts: every woman who had a problem with Clinton had a sympathetic and willing to indict champion in Ken Starr. He plowed that ground for anything that would give him ammo against Clinton. In the end he looked at what she had to say long and hard and decided to let it go. Bill Clinton ain’t a saint. In fact, he’s a nasty ass hound. I lost all respect for him during the Lewinski hearings. But there is no smoking crime gun here, just a badly used cigar.. That’s my position and I’m sticking to it.

  • doktorzoom

    This has been a thoughtful, productive conversation, but now the Internet Flying Rage Brigade has arrived, so I’m afraid we’re closing comments right now.

  • brmull

    As a man who has been falsely accused–twice–of sexual assault (once by someone who I never even talked to, and both of whom apparently dreamed it), I say please do not always reflexively believe the woman. But when you have the history Bill Clinton has, and corroborating physical evidence. Come on… We are going to have a sexual predator as First Dude.

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