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Not much of a deterrent to crime, but kawaii as anything

Writing for a politics blog is weird. Yr Dok Zoom had just finished saving an earlier version of this piece Wednesday night when he opened a beer and decided to look at Twitter before heading to bed. That wasn’t such a great idea, in terms of sleeping well. And so we shall reframe what had just been an interesting bit of research into a direct reply to the geniuses who know, deep in their hearts, that when two or more are gathered in God’s name, at least one must be carrying a gun, and then mass shootings would be even rarer than they actually are.

But no, the numbers don’t seem to point to that, not at all: A study released Wednesday by gun safety advocates the Violence Policy Center (VPC) suggests that the value of guns for self-defense is greatly exaggerated, leading many on the right to reply with careful statistical analyses of their own, mostly saying “Oh yeah? You’re lying! You want to take our guns!” The study, Firearm Justifiable Homicides and Non-Fatal Self-Defense Gun Use, found that according to FBI crime statistics, in 2012 (the most recent year for complete stats), “there were only 259 justifiable homicides involving a private citizen using a firearm. That same year, there were 8,342 criminal firearm homicides.”

Nobody Called Gun Owners Murderers (Just Some Of ‘Em!)

When the survey was released, a lot of criticism was aimed (hurr hurr) at one of the press release’s math bits:

In 2012, for every justifiable homicide in the United States involving a firearm, guns were used in 32 criminal homicides. This ratio does not include the tens of thousands of lives taken in suicides or unintentional shootings.

But that’s not fair, say pro-gun people — it’s just not true that gun owners are 32 times more likely to murder someone than to defend themselves. Which would be a legitimate complaint if the study were claiming that about individual gun owners, but it’s not, it really isn’t. It’s comparing the ratio of offensive to defensive homicides, and that’s all. Feel free to correct anyone who says the study is claiming that average gun owners are likely to become murderers. It’s merely saying they’re just not very likely to become heroes, either.

Gun-humpers also attacked the study as irrelevant nonsense, since it compared justifiable homicides by responsible gun owners with criminal homicides by criminals, who by definition are bad guys with guns. This is indeed a weakness of the study, since it failed to calibrate the moral content of each type of homicide. But it is true that the study made no attempt to discern the origin of the guns used, so, sure, let’s concede that a fairly high percentage of the criminal homicides may have been committed with illegally obtained guns — and then add, so what? Even if there are a lot of gangbangers banging away in gangs, the stats still don’t support the notion that guns are likely to keep you especially safe from crime. Plus, today we had another reminder that in very rare cases, a “responsible gun owner” is just one act of murder away from jumping into that other category.

In fact, in terms of who’s getting killed in justifiable homicides, the study also found that “35.5 percent of persons killed in a firearm justifiable homicide were known to the shooter,” while 51.4 percent were strangers — so in only about half of the justified shootings were people blowing away unknown assailants. And of course, since the VPC study is focused on homicides only, it sets aside the over 20,000 suicides and 546 fatal unintentional shootings in 2012, though it does mention them in a footnote.

Not That Many Rambos, Sorry

Given gun-humpers’ obsession with self-defense — whether lethal or nonlethal — the study’s findings on non-lethal defensive uses of guns, based on the Bureau of Justice Statistics National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), were actually more surprising, finding that between 2007 and 2011, “[intended] victims of violent crimes engaged in self-protective behavior with a firearm in only 0.8 percent of attempted and completed incidents.” That’s based on a total of only 235,700 defensive uses of firearms in the five-year period, a far cry from the NRA’s highly dubious claim of up to 2.5 million defensive uses of firearms every year. And yes, the study’s number is probably low, since it covers only crimes that were actually reported to police, and it’s likely that a lot of people don’t report minor crimes that were prevented by waving a gun. But it’s also highly unlikely that the under-reporting is off by a million or more incidents a year. So from a purely statistical standpoint, the likelihood that someone in the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church could have blown away alleged shooter Dylann Roof before he finished his attack is fairly low. In theory, those chances would go way up if every single church meeting in every single church had at least one member carrying a gun. Of course, the number of accidental shootings would go up too, but that’s a small price to pay for safety.

What About Defending Your Castle?

The statistics on use of guns to prevent property crimes are also worth mentioning the next time your batshit crazy uncle starts going on about all the guns he has stashed to protect against a home invasion. For one thing, the vast majority of property crimes — 85.6 percent — occur when the victim isn’t present. (If this fact encourages your crazy uncle to barricade himself inside his house at all times, tell him you’ll miss him at Thanksgiving and pour yourself an extra glass of wine.) And only .1 percent of victims of property crimes threatened the criminal with a firearm — that’s 103,000 defensive uses in five years. As the study notes, that’s hardly a drop in the bucket compared to Justice Department estimates that an “average of 232,400 guns were stolen each year from U.S. households from 2005 to 2010.” So yes, if you have a gun in your house, it really is more likely to be stolen while you’re away than used by you to go Charles Bronson on a home invader. Your friendly neighborhood gang thanks you for the contribution.

But What Does The NRA Think?

Needless to say, the National Rifle Association is not at all impressed by the VPC study. NRA spokeswoman Jennifer Baker called the study “rubbish” and then made “ptooey, ptooey” sounds to express her utter contempt for it. Baker said the study “fails to note that only a fraction of defensive firearm homicides are reported to the FBI and the study doesn’t account for the many crimes deterred by a firearm that do not result in a homicide.” Also, too, the study didn’t account for polling that shows that “most Americans believe exercising their constitutional right to self-protection makes them safer,” a perception that is surely every bit as important as the much lower statistics on actual uses of guns for self-protection. Heck, the commenters on the Daily Caller and Breitbart alone are pretty sure they’ve prevented hundreds of crimes each just by owning their bangsticks.

All in all, the study is a pretty interesting read, although we actually have to agree with the NRA that the FBI’s crime statistics aren’t necessarily the most reliable, largely since they rely on local police departments’ often-flawed reporting (see for instance, the 2013 New York Times story on how deadly firearm accidents involving children are badly under-counted). It would be great to have much more accurate, uniform statistics on firearms use, but the NRA has done everything it can to block federal funding for such research, since of course such research would only be used as an excuse to seize everybody’s guns.

[The Hill / Violence Policy Center press release / Firearm Justifiable Homicides and Non-Fatal Self-Defense Gun Use / Armed With Reason]

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  • Nounverb911
    • Latverian Diplomat

      It’s a chapter 11 bankruptcy, which means they intend to stay in business after restructuring their debt.

      • david green

        “Restructuring”. Doesn’t that usually mean that someone they own money to is going to get screwed?

        • ButIKnowWhatILike

          Their employees, would be my guess.

          • SullivanSt

            Past and present.

        • Latverian Diplomat

          Yes, I suspect the company will be sold to someone like Bain capital for something like the book value of the assets, and the creditors reimbursed from the proceeds of the sale for cents on the dollar. A large part of what the bankruptcy court does is decide which creditors get what fraction of what they are owed.

          This is not, in princple, a bad thing. In general, it’s better to have a going concern keep operating, and keep employing people, and leave a few moneybags crying in their cornflakes, especially since the moneybags would lose out even if the company were completely liquidated. There’s just too much debt.

          In this particular case, one might have hoped they would just “shut that whole thing down” as conservatives say, but that’s not usually what Chapter 11 does. And anyway, Colt was heavily dependent on military contracts. As I understand it, they are a relatively small player in the gun nut market. However, the turnaround strategy might be to change that, which would not be a good thing.

    • Bill Slider

      I saw that, and wondered if they ever went beyond the Colt 45 with its revolving cylinder. The TV must have stopped making cowboy and Indian movies.

      • Angry_Cop

        Colt 1911 – pistol that won WWII.
        Colt M-16 – rifle that lost Vietnam
        Colt M-4 – rifle that lost Iraq

        Lots of others. So yeah, they’ve been a legit player in the arms industry for a long time. See my comment below as to what this bankruptcy is all about.

    • Angry_Cop

      Yeah, this is not the good news you think it is. They’re not bankrupt. They could pay all their debts right now. But then they wouldn’t have any money left for bonuses.

      This is actually a great example of how the bankruptcy laws boost big business and fuck over consumers.

    • georgiaburning

      The founder, Samuel Colt, was a louse in his day- selling guns to the Confederates.

  • Bob@Bob.com

    Every gun (except homemade) starts off in the hands of law abiding citizens yet somehow they keep making their way to killers.

  • onedollarjuana

    “there were only 259 justifiable homicides
    involving a private citizen using a firearm. That same year, there were
    8,342 criminal firearm homicides.”

    That is almost exactly the same ratio of scientists who don’t believe there is sufficient evidence to blame global climate change (3%) to those who do (97%).

    • arglebargle

      Also, 546 fatal unintentional shootings. So you are twice as likely to kill yourself or a loved one (til death do we part) as you are to kill an intruder.

      • willi0000000

        and you have to wonder . . . just how many ‘unintentional’ killings were deemed that for lack of solid evidence?

  • Thaumaturgist

    Precious moment on Fox News at about 3:40 p.m., EDT, Thursday: Right after Fox News discussion of how Obama immediately went political in his remarks on the church shooting, Fox cut to a commercial which featured a cheerful white lady explaining that she got shot by a high powered rifle and now needs colostomy bags and catheters, day in and out, and some mail order medical supply company makes her day, or words to that effect.

    • Msgr_Moment

      Jerb creatin’ patriot that shot her!

    • nightmoth

      You watched FOX after the hate crime?! Thanks for taking one for the team.

  • Spurning Beer

    If we can trust the federal data, it should just be a matter of time before responsible gun-owning conservative-Americans kill each other off in accidental shootings, suicides, and gun assaults using their own weapons against them.

    • Nounverb911

      With how much collateral damage?

      • Spurning Beer

        Hey, you know, Tree of Liberty, patriots, blah blah blah….

      • chicken thief

        Nine just the other day. Well, whatever 3/5ths of nine is…

        • willi0000000

          twenty-seven fifths . . . or just enough to blot out this pain.

      • SK

        As much as they can scare up in the circle-jerk.

  • MrBlobfish

    This will all be brushed off as lies from the librul media. Same as it ever was.

  • JohnnyZhivago2

    Facts are always slanted for liberals!

  • Zippy

    i gotta agree, Dok. There are far too many times I regret that one last check of the news before I go to bed- last night was one of them…

  • VandeGraf

    Lordy, Dok Zoom, using actual statistical numbers and reason comes dangerously close to heresy! Sounds like an attack on the freedom of the Wingnut Church of Latter Day Matt Dillons.

  • JustPixelz

    On its best day, ISIS/ISIL wishes they could kill as many Americans (or anyone!) as we do to ourselves with guns. It’s like a 9/11 every month. #ThanksNRA

    • chicken thief

      *Sigh* But if we dint have guns, they would! It’s common sense – like how they took over Australia because NO FUCKING GUNZ THERE!

      • Dimitrios M.

        Er … who took over Australia, marsupials, the British, bunny rabbits, or do you mean brush fires?

        • chicken thief

          You trying to roon my snark buzz?

      • Msgr_Moment

        Damn straight. We have to fight em over here so that we don’t have to fight them over there.

  • Zippy

    “I never heard him say anything, but just he had that kind of
    Southern pride, I guess some would say. Strong conservative beliefs,” he
    said. “He made a lot of racist jokes, but you don’t really take them
    seriously like that. You don’t really think of it like that.”

    maybe instead of banning guns we could just compromise and ban conservatives…

    • Villago Delenda Est

      “He made a lot of racist jokes, but you don’t really take them seriously like that”.

      This tells us everything we know about the person quoted. He needs to be carefully watched, lest he go shooting up a bunch of ni*CLANGS* in some “unchristian” Methodist church.

    • SullivanSt

      This is what happens when in a desperate attempt to avoid the label “racist” one redefines the word to exclude everything short of actual racially motivated murder.

      Fuck the GOP’s war on language. Fuck it hard.

      • david green

        Problem is that the GOP is better at it than the left. They have been “amending” the language since Saint Ronnie.

        • Blank Ron

          And well before. I recall that the Trickster liked to Humpty-Dumpty the language too.

        • SullivanSt

          It’s far more a question of desire than ability. They don’t give a shit that they’re destroying the capacity to describe the world as we find it because to them ideology will always come before reality.

    • nightmoth

      Maybe Southerners should start taking racist jokes seriously instead of laughing at them. I have a reputation for not having a sense of humor because I started calling people out.

  • AngryBlakGuy

    …using the NRA’s reasoning Northern Iraq and Southern Syria should be safest, most politest places on the planet!!! I mean with all those unaccounted for guns flooding into the region, that place should be paradise by now!!!

    • chicken thief

      Plenty of US military armaments floating around the region also too, that we’ve given or sold to various nations.

      • Steverino247

        And then dropped by pants-shitting Iraqi soldiers as the signal to start the 10K dash.

        • Nounverb911

          Ted Nugent is an Iraqi soldier?

          • Steverino247

            Camel Spit Fever. Da da daaaaaa.

          • Msgr_Moment

            I make the camel spit with a stroke of my hand….

          • Steverino247

            Ewwww. Just ewwww.

          • Bill Slider

            In his dreams, and then only the wet ones.

    • Villago Delenda Est

      Well, the society is very polite once the shooting stops, because so many of the unpolite are dead.

      • SullivanSt

        Well, I guess we can all look forward to when the shooting ends, about half past never.

  • cousin itt

    owning their bangsticks.

    I keep mine polished as often as I can. I also let others do it if they ask nicely.

    • Msgr_Moment

      I hear that the polish is also good for the skin.

  • Me not sure

    I’m always baffled by the number of allegedly religious people who are more than wiling to admit that they feel entitled to plug anyone who makes them feel remotely uneasy. I’m totally convinced that cognitive dissonance goes a long way toward explaining religious fervor.

    • eddi

      Religion is no longer what I was taught it was. Instead of creating a firm moral foundation that affects all decisions, it is an after the fact justification for anything a person wants to do.

      • Me not sure

        Can I get an amen!

        • nightmoth

          AMEN, brothers and sisters!

    • HarryButtle

      You’d think that folks who believed in the afterlife wouldn’t be so freaking terrified of dying.

      • Me not sure

        Everybody wants to go. Nobody wants to go now.

        • nightmoth

          “Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die.”
          I was going to attribute that to Flip Wilson,
          but it was Joe Louis, WAY back in the day.

      • nightmoth

        Oddly, that’s what christianists say sneeringly about people on death row, who have been rehabilitated and claim they’ve found God. “Yah–so kill ’em and let ’em go be with Him.”

  • Dok,

    using empirical data to make a point in the 2A debate is like bringing a math to a gunfight.

  • chicken thief

    The VPC are just wasting their time and energy. I’ve already decided that my Desert Eagle makes me safer, so facts aren’t necessary.

    • Steverino247

      Exactly. It’s the same as any other talisman humans have carried around. Except I can’t think of anyone killed by a lucky penny or rabbit part.

      • bikerlaureate

        The National Lucky Penny Association approves of your comment.

      • Mehmeisterjr

        You could probably drop a penny off the Empire State Building and kill somebody. For this reason, we should all open carry pennies in our shirt pockets while leaning from the roof of sky scrapers, just in case we spot a threatening thug on the sidewalk.

        • Dimitrios M.

          This is why Canada has stopped making the penny.

          • Left Coast Tom

            Sounds very Loony.

          • Dimitrios M.

            If your nickel was only worth 4.1 cents, just see if you could be bothered trying to make a penny.

      • Wonkaholic

        Not to be pedantic, but I beg to differ. I suspect a few rabbits were killed during the collection of said rabbit parts.

        • Steverino247

          Nope. They were already dead. Probably harvested for food or expired from medical use, etc. I see your pedantic and raise you one. LOL

          • doktorzoom

            Pets or meat?

          • Amy!

            “When you got a rabbit thet talented,” *spit* “you don’t wanna eat ‘im all at oncet!”

  • RoyalUglyDude

    Guns don’t kill people. Conservatives do.

    • calliecallie

      Bumper sticker!!!

      • nightmoth

        How about “I’m ARMED. I’m LIBERAL. And you’re pissing me off.”
        I’ve actually thought about doing that one, but I live in the South, so I’m afraid that would cause suicide by bumper sticker.

    • Amy!

      “Guns don’t kill people; bullets do.”

      “Guns don’t kill people; blood loss and organ failure do.”

      “Guns don’t kill people; that takes careful aim, a steady hand, and a good scope.”

  • Tallmutha

    Interesting piece! You have marshaled your evidence effectively and made a powerful argument. Now. MOAR GUNS.

  • OrdinaryJoe

    I’m sick, physically and spiritually, filled with rage and feelings of great sorrow. I am turning off the snark machine for today. TTYL.

    • laineypc

      It is my great hope that rather than inciting a race war, as many of these lunatics say they want, it incites a love war, and I mean that from the bottom of my aching, bleeding heart. That this and any future (hopefully but probably definitely not going to be zero) racially motivated violence brings people of all races together in visible solidarity. Like people are standing up to block Westboro protesters at funerals, we will all come out and show the country that every time someone tries to sever us with hate, twenty more tentacles of love will grow in its place.

      • Blank Ron

        It’s a wonderful sentiment. I hope to see it begin before I die. But on days like today it’s a faint, faint hope.

  • Steverino247

    Sorry, toots. All crimes are reported to the FBI as are all homicides. The CDC likely is the source for suicides and negligent discharges (ALWAYS USE THIS TERM!) resulting in death.

    While THIS study doesn’t discuss chasing away phantom boogie men by discharging a firearm in the general direction of Procyon, it does discuss how firearms result in DEATH, which is far more important for any study. Perhaps the NRA would like to fund a study to support their hypothesis? They won’t ever do that because it’s not about facts.

    I want to thank the NRA for adding this “most Americans believe exercising their constitutional right to self-protection makes them safer” to the disccusion. BELIEF doesn’t equal FACT. The NRA is in the faith business, you see. Anything which present facts, such as the instant study or my suggestion that the NRA fund a study to determine if their public statements are factual, is a serious threat to the belief system. I would suggest that people concerned about gun-related primate display behavior develop techniques similar to those used to deprogram cult members. Because they are cult members.

    • Angry_Cop

      Thank you, because “negligent” is not “accidental”, and I have never in my years on this planet run across an “accidental” gun discharge. Dropped a loaded gun and it went off? Not an accident. You were fucking negligent for leaving it loaded.

      • david green

        Well, what the time the squirrel (I think it was a squirrel – it could have been a Cape Buffalo) shot the hunter.

      • Jen_Baker_VA

        that doesn’t count for vice presidents on hunting trips does it? Asking for a friend

  • chicken thief

    Jesus and the Founding Fathers said I can have a gun. So fuck the stats.

    ~ Ammosexuals

    • Dimitrios M.

      Okay, get yourself one of the Founding Father’s muskets. Just don’t come crying to me if you “negligently” fire the ramrod through your foot, or if the breech blows up in your face.

      One less ammosexual.

    • ButIKnowWhatILike

      The founding fathers also knew they didn’t get it right 100% of the time, and that’s why there’s a process for amendments. Time to do to the 2nd what the 21st did to the 18th.

  • Michael Christian

    I thought the Italians disproved the whole “armed society is a safe society” thing a several hundred years ago when they banned sword wearing in public because everyone was stabbing each other to death all the goddamn time. It’s amazing what history can teach us!

    • Villago Delenda Est

      History was written by pointy headed liebrals.

    • Dimitrios M.

      If you make knives illegal, they will just start killing people with their forks.

      (Lots of people are already committing suicide with their fork.)

      • Amy!

        “Lot of people don’t have much food on the table. But they got a lot of forks, ‘n’ knives. Gotta cut somethin’.” — B. Dylan (one ‘n’)

  • Villago Delenda Est

    “It’s just not fair to point out that ‘responsible gun owners’ have this really bad tendency to unload a clip on an ex-wife and her boyfriend”.

    Oh, dear. I used the dreaded ‘clip’ term. The ammosexuals will go bananas. As in “banana clip”. Heh, indeedy.

    • Steverino247

      Another sign of cult membership. These guys know more about guns that botanists know about leaves.

      • Angry_Cop

        Legit shooters, as opposed to ammosexuals, really don’t care about the nomenclature. They know that when you’re out with your AR and ask for a “clip”, what it is you are asking for.

        • Villago Delenda Est

          Just don’t call your M16 variant a “gun”. It’s a weapon. The Drill Instructor will see you doing pushups forever if you make that mistake.

          • Angry_Cop

            I’m really shitty at pushups so I never joined up. I’m a smartass to boot so it really would not have gone well for me.

            I prefer my shooting at a nice quiet range run by non-lunatics who actually know something about gun safety and running a good tight range with rules. This is becoming a more difficult thing to find these days.

          • Seek

            No money in it. Armed Lunatics and fanatics pay better so the operator stands behind a barricade and hopes for the best.

          • Good_Gawd_Yall

            Sugar Creek Range in Lancaster, Ky is right up your alley, then. It’s where I shoot every weekend.

          • nightmoth

            No 8 year-olds with machine guns?

          • Anarchy Pony

            So pew pew machine is right out?

        • Steverino247

          Exactly. The use of “clip” persists because it’s easier to say than “magazine” when under fire and you need another one quickly.

  • Jack_Carter_USA

    The gun humpers like to pretend that waving their oversized metal penises around will chase evil demons away, despite cold hard numbers showing they’re exponentially more likely to kill themselves or each other. But nothing can be done about guns because FREEDOM!

    • arglebargle

      FREEDUMB! (fify)

  • Spotts1701

    We have to have guns in case Obama wants to drone us.

    • Villago Delenda Est

      Like Patton shot down that attacking German plane in North Africa?

    • Anarchy Pony

      I know my trusty .308 is gonna bring down that drone cruising at a thousand feet.

      • SullivanSt

        More like 40,000′

        • willi0000000

          all you gotta do is press the ‘up’ button on your elevator shoes until you get to 39,950′

          [ the rest is easy ]

        • Anarchy Pony

          The odds of hitting it at either altitude with that kind of rifle are about the same

      • bluicebank

        You’ll have to nick that slug down to a Victrola needle for the ballistics to work. And even then, check your windage.

    • Querolous

      Drones should be banned. We are talking about bagpipes, right?

  • sillyclucker

    I’m just here for the trolls. Where are they?

    • Angry_Cop

      Not in the comments section, since comments are not allowed.

    • Dimitrios M.

      Look under the bridge.

  • actor212

    But what will I do with all these guns? Especially the guns I bought to protect the guns I bought???

    • Skwerl King

      But what about the guns you bought to protect the guns you bought to protect the guns you bought?

      • actor212

        Oh my god, I wasn’t even thinking about those! Or the guns I bought to protect the guns I bought to protect the guns I bought to protect the guns I bought!

        • chicken thief

          THAT’S why I have a mine field around my house.

          • Dimitrios M.

            Then they will put a mine field around you and so on …

            You’ll come to it eventually, why not now? Set up a Doomsday Device,” then wait for an appropriate day to tell people about it.

          • Blank Ron

            ♬ We’ll meet again… ♪

          • Amy!

            Tsk.

            Nuke ’em from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.

          • actor212

            But what protects those mines?

            AHA! Caught in my web of logic!

      • Msgr_Moment

        All big guns have little guns
        And littler guns inside ’em
        All littler guns have littler guns
        And so on, ad infinitum.

        • doktorzoom

          It’s guns all the way down.

          • bobbert

            The guns move.

      • nightmoth

        Sell them via the Great American Private Sale of Guns loophole in the laws.
        They’re all bringing great prices due to Obama’s sure to take our guns any day now (waiting, waiting–). It’s the capitalist thing to do.

  • actor212

    But What Does The NRA Think?

    Think?

    • Msgr_Moment

      Facts ;not in evidence.

  • shastakoala

    The Altoona guy that shot up a pew on Easter Sunday is a prime example of all the good it does carrying a gun to church. Or for that matter carrying a gun at all.

    • arglebargle

      Good god, now we need to arm the pews as well.

      • Villago Delenda Est

        I suggest sniper rifles in the belfry.

        • SullivanSt

          Charles Whitman agrees.

      • Zippy

        Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition

    • Mehmeisterjr

      You are overlooking the possibility that his mother might have attacked him without provocation. From that perspective, it is a good thing that he proactively dropped his weapon and plugged the old lady before she could pull a fast one.

  • Charles Cates

    There are an estimated 300 million guns in private hands in the U.S. Almost as many as the population so in the interest of safety we should redistribute the guns, spread the firepower around as it were. Everyone gets a gun and a box of ammo. Rifles for people in rural areas, handguns for the city-dwellers, and shotguns for the blind and other differently able.

    • Angry_Cop

      Naw, you’re not sticking me with some inaccurate POS penis substitute handgun. I’ll take a rifle, which can be useful and effective under some circumstances, thank yew very much.

      • Jen_Baker_VA

        aw come on, you know you want a lil pearl handled man purse special

    • Villago Delenda Est

      The logistics of such a scheme is mind boggling. Almost as mind boggling as for a confiscation scenario, and this essentially is one, because the number of households with a gun has been falling. Ammosexuals are hoarding weapons and ammo in their NRA-induced fear.

    • SuspectedDemocrat

      Does that rifle come with a plaid fedora?

      • mailman27

        You have to graduate from Cool Skool first.

    • Lascauxcaveman

      Ya got it all backwards, Chas. Think about it: if all three hundred million guns were in the hands of just one guy then we’d all be safer, statistically. Because we’d know who he is and be able to stay out of his way.

      • natoslug

        There’s a George Z on line two asking if the position of “just one guy” is still available.

        • willi0000000

          i’d rather like to see 300,000,000 guns dropped on zimmer.

          [ all at once . . . yeah, yeah with fucking votes ]

          • natoslug

            This is one instance where “with votes” might not be needed. Having guns dropped on him would be his equivalent of a golden shower.

  • Bill Slider

    I keep my bangstick in my pants, as my parents taught me. That way, I not only keep the homicide rate down, but the abortion rate down as well.

  • Joshua Norton

    Heck, the commenters on the Daily Caller and Breitbart alone are pretty
    sure they’ve prevented hundreds of crimes each just by owning their
    bangsticks.

    To wit:

    • ButIKnowWhatILike

      Is that the source of the claim you’ll see gun-fellators make of “20 million crimes a year prevented by guns” or some other ridiculous figure? I always thought it must be something along the lines of “No one’s criming me again today; it must be ’cause of my sweet, sweet dick of death.”

  • Dimitrios M.

    of course, nobody counted those times when a gun-humper, in the midst of losing an argument with his wife, suddenly turns the tables on her and makes her admit she doesn’t know what she’s talking about, merely by holding his semi-automatic in one hand and stroking it with the other.

    That probably saves her life, right there.

  • SpaceCaptainWarlock

    Being a responsible gun owner and being able to protect your family against home invasion using a gun are mutually exclusive unless you invest in a really expensive biometric safe. That fact doesn’t often make it into the “protect my family” fantasy. The gun is either loaded and easily accessible — thus putting your family at great risk — or the gun is unloaded and stored in a locked safe — thus making it useless in a home invasion situation.

    Now, economic policies that effectively shrink the number of rich and poor people would do more to prevent crime than anything. A strong middle class means people don’t need to resort to crime. We have the opposite of that right now: lots of rich people, lots of poor people and a shit load of guns. It shouldn’t be too hard to see how that makes for a volatile environment.

    • Angry_Cop

      Look up “Rubber-hose cryptanalysis” to see what that fancy biometric safe is worth when you are staring down the barrel of some asshole’s gun. Or even worse, if your wife or kid is staring down the barrel of some psycho’s gun. You’ll open it. And your home invasion will go from “bad” to “national newsworthy” for reasons you won’t be real happy about.

      I safe my guns because I live in a neighborhood with teens, and that’s the law and just smart. Good enough for casual burglaries. But just like the study says, if someone is determined to enter the house and confront me and rob/beat/rape my ass, having those guns in the house makes me WAY less safe than someone who has none, even in a safe, even with them unloaded, even with my ammo in a totally separate, secret, and well-hidden place. Because all that goes out the window when they start killing your family. You’ll give them up. And they’ll probably kill you with them.

      • SullivanSt

        I think the assumption was that you’d be able to open the biometric safe quickly enough to be able to go all Pulp Fiction when the other barrel was pointed at you/family. I have strong doubts as to the accuracy of that assumption.

  • calliecallie

    With votes. There’s nothing more I can say.

    • dshwa

      My +2 rusty garden weasel of votes is getting a workout today.

    • House0fTheBlueLights

      They’ve taken our votes by gerrymandering us into single districts, restricting access to the polls and coopting the media, including the “liberal” parts of it. There is no hope, we are well and truly fucked.

      • willi0000000

        the 2016 election will be important because it will likely affect the makeup of the Supreme Court . . . 2020 will be more important because it will be redistricting time.

        VOTE ALL THE WAY DOWN THE BALLOT!

        • Left Coast Tom

          In many states 2018 is when the governor who will be around for 2020 redistricting gets elected. So, VOTE EVERY ELECTION NO EXCEPTIONS OR EXCUSES, also, too.

          • SullivanSt

            More interested in the legislators than the governors in most states. But many of them will also be elected in 2018.

        • BeliTsari

          BUT, this… the wars, individual privacy rights and NATIONAL HEALTHCARE, were why the less starry-eyed voted for Barack Obama? The circuit courts especially.

  • SullivanSt

    And yes, the study’s number is probably
    low, since it covers only crimes that were actually reported to police,
    and it’s likely that a lot of people don’t report minor crimes that were
    prevented by waving a gun.

    Not true! The NCVS is a victimization survey, not a reported crime survey. Are you sure you’re not confusing with the FBI’s UCR, which is about crimes reported to police?

  • Jan Ness

    Sorry not sorry I can’t even finish reading this…I am soooo sick of the ppl who think a gun would have stopped this deranged guy! Too hard to think anyone thinks anyone should be totin a gun in our CIVIL society!

  • Just wondering when the NRA will be included as a co-conspirator or at least an accessory before the fact?

    • Blank Ron

      Shoulda started doing that a LONG time ago.

  • Fly

    Sincerely held beliefs will always trump liberal facts.

  • TheBidenator

    Stupidity always trumps facts and reason…where do you think stand yer ground and every other pro-gun, anti-human law comes from? Also, I love that the NRA included polling data like that means anything. I’m sure a majority of Americans also think having a gun might keep the sky from falling on them I mean talk about a rubbish point….

  • SprayedMilkOutMyNose

    More guns equals more gun violence. Few controls on guns equals more gun violence. The evidence is world wide, everywhere, under every fucking rock, in the sky, under the christing water. Its in the air we breathe. Guns mean death. You can’t fucking tell me that a city like Toronto, that has a fraction of the crime of a similar sized US city, isn’t some sort of goddam evidence.

    Where does this shit end? How horrible does it have to get. Or is it already too late? Are we so desensitized to it now that no matter how ugly it gets, we will just turn the page and stare at Kim K’s ass and listen to Taylor Swift on the way into work.

    The NRA is spending billions ensuring that children will grow up K through 12 seeing guns on the hips of every single teacher’s hip, thus ensuring that guns become nothing more than an fashion accessory. What are gun control advocates doing? What am I doing…?

    • Jen_Baker_VA

      You keep fighting. Day in day out you try to make your part of the world a little better and though the darkness might swallow the light, so long as there is a single candle burning, you keep on fighting.

      Damn I loved Dragonlance.

    • Jen_Baker_VA

      You keep fighting. Day in day out you try to make your part of the world a little better and though the darkness might swallow the light, so long as there is a single candle burning, you keep on fighting.

      Damn I loved Dragonlance.

  • alwayspunkindrublic

    Birthday time…geez, whaddya buy for the angry, racist, mentally unstable young man with a creepy name who has everything? I I gotta start looking at housing prices in another galaxy.

  • Last Hussar

    What I really don’t understand is those who object to registration etc. Lets take that other machine that kills Americans – the car.

    If you buy a car, you have to tell the government. If you sell a car, you have to tell the government, if you want to use a car you have to prove you are capable of doing it safely, if you actually use one you have to be insured so if you do cock up you can recompense the victim.

    Suggest this to a number of gun owners and suddenly you are trying to steal their guns.

    Why do they object to a clear chain of ownership. “We don’t want to stop you owning the gun, we just want to know who has what one in case they are involved in a death or injury”. Who the hell forgets to tell the police they’ve had a gun stolen?

    • Jen_Baker_VA

      Most responsible (they do exist!) gun owners have no problem with registration or even background checks. Zero, nada zip
      The NRA has a yooooge problem with this because FREEDUMB and oh yeah, they would stand to lose money if everyone could not buy all the big bangsticks they wanted because there are a lot of crazy asses among us.
      It’s mostly the money

  • Dee Andee

    Two of my fave stories…

    #1) Waaay back when, when I was politically ignorant and so was my now deceased ex, we lived together. He had 4 guns (for home defense). He had one actually hidden in the closet, and 3 sitting around our bedroom, loaded (for home defense). One day, burglars broke into the duplex we shared with his brother and SIL. They stole hamburger out of the fridge, then the police think they went out on the front porch, only to see my ex’s Guns & Ammo magazine peeking out of the mailbox. When I got home from work, the door was ripped off its hinges and 3 of the 4 guns were gone (along with his dime bag, lol).

    Wow, that really defended our home and stuff. My ex died last year, still a gunhumping dumbass who picked his candidates based on GUNZ and was too damn lazy to look any further. Which got him a nice cup of STFU when he came to pick up our son about 10 years back, and started bitching about GWB (whom he voted for, for home defense, yeah).

    #2) My son’s gunhumping BFF, who collects guns, assesses the virtue of every state by their gun laws, etc. Collects guns avidly (for home defense) and (penis compensation, I’m assuming). Was going to the doctor last year. Bent down to adjust the leg holster and his loaded gun and fucking shot himself. Limped into the clinic, bleeding all over, “Um, I shot myself. Help.”

    Gun guyz, really? You’re stupid. Stupid. And your reasoning and over-justification makes you look like what you are–stupid. YOU are the problem.

    • bluicebank

      You had me at STUPID.

      A while back I inherited dear old Dad’s collection of firearms and ammo. After Barack Obama got elected, I realized two things: 1) I needed money because GW Bush made business bad, 2) the idiots were running up of price for guns and ammo. I established a seller account, and made thousands. The idiots bought high, and I sold high.

      • Dee Andee

        That’s where my son is sitting now. He has this collection of guns from his father, who passed away last year. He wants to sell most of them, because his reasoning is, he doesn’t need more than one, and the one he’d keep is because it belonged to his Dad.

        • bluicebank

          Tell your son he might have some good business sense to him. Not that I’m saying he should sell to potential idiots, but that if he has some guns of collector value, he should sell high. Considering the market, I had no problem with selling Dad’s guns for ten times what they were bought for. Shear the sheep … one more gun ain’t gonna make them any more dangerous.

          • Portia Elm

            you know, I was right with you until you got on the money bandwagon. melt them down, instead

    • r m reddicks

      When the “home invaders”- is that some sort of Jade thing? – stop by I’m just going to show them your post. And I’m not gunhumping on that! It’s great! I wanted to read Moar Words!

  • bluicebank

    I’m tired of weighing in on this shit … as a gun owner and former hunter (one grows long in the tooth).

    The current state of affairs of gun ownership in America is a travesty of what was once a relatively sublime heritage. Even back in the day, responsible shooters would ridicule and shun the idiots in the field, range or whatever. Hunt to eat, don’t kill anything endangered, and clean the fucking gun.

    I hate these goddamn gun-fetish assholes. They know nothing. Worse, they ruined the whole culture of responsible gun ownership (which I suppose was once a thing, at least in my family subset of me and Dad). Fuckers.

    Shit, man, you can take my remaining guns, as long you take the weapons from those idiots and then slap them silly. Fuckers.

    • Jen_Baker_VA

      Can we slap them silly with their cold hands? Cause that would be funny

      • bluicebank

        Why, yes, but that would seem like a Game of Thrones episode. Still, I’m thinking of FEMA re-education camps, with piped in music 24/7, though I can’t think of what tunes will break through the propaganda-brain barrier. Start off slow with Neil Young and then for the hard cases, Tom Waits.

        • Jen_Baker_VA

          Tom Waits will fix em all!!!!
          Besides which, if we make it seeeeem like Game of Thrones they might actually sign up for it and such. Cause reality TV right?

        • BeliTsari

          Nah, Céline Dion FOREVER, over & over… Wiz Khalifa, Shyne, Lil Wayne & Niki all taking turns screaming over top of her? Leave their piece with a chambered round?

          • r m reddicks

            You fuckin’ sadist. Or is that usa military deployed intelligence team? I’ll check with daddy’ bush’s old friend, Manuel.

          • BeliTsari

            Had me a jarhaid sniper buddy hoo dun took’d part in “Operation Nifty Package.”

          • nightmoth

            Me likey! Especially the chambered round.

    • nightmoth

      Enthusiastic applause!

  • Charley Frank Gibbs

    Gun control measures fail cause criminals can get all the bangsticks they want. Fear of being a victim of a robbery, mugging, car-jacking, rape or assault attempt by an armed criminal totally unnerves many people. Though safety statistics say otherwise, many well-meaning folks bought a few guns for ‘protection’. Some are still thinking about buying one or more. An unstable gun owner is a tragedy whether he bought it or it was a gift. Add to that way too many gun owners without the minimum training for safely owning a firearm. Registration scares the beans out of recreational shooters. Mainly due to the hysterical hype by paranoid dependents on sales of guns, ammunition and accessories. Disarming sounds simple. I doubt it would be simple. Background checks are a great start though. Stealing a firearm should be harshly punished. I like to target shoot. I like cleaning and storing my firearms safely. And just for the record, my penis size with or without firearms has always been adequate.

    • Dylan Black

      Guns ARE pretty fun, thats why I enjoy virtual shootbang so much. It gives me much of the satisfaction of shooting things without even a .01% chance that anyone will actually end up with bullet fragments shredding their internal organs.

      So its not that I don’t understand that some people just want guns for fun/sport/utility of hunting things. I just ask that you all submit to the same registration, safety and insurance process that we all have to endure for our houses and cars. Its not an unreasonable demand, and it might even make it easier to retrieve some of these thousands of stolen guns in the future.

      • Charley Frank Gibbs

        Gun owners need to be registered. Every gun they own, maybe not. Mandatory safety and insurance discounts for safe (more secure) storage could be a nice feature. Retrieving stolen guns is hard. Stopping illegal sales would be the more productive measure. Stop slappin’ gun-crime perps on the wrist also.

    • SullivanSt

      Except that the statistics show that gun control measures do work. I remember reading Tim Lambert of all people expressing surprise at how much more than he expected Australia’s homicide rate fell after their legislative response to Port Arthur.

      • Charley Frank Gibbs

        Australia did buy back millions of bangsticks and destroyed them. Some states even enacted stiffer gun-related criminal penalties. The U.S. may not be in the mood for a per person tax to buy guns for destruction though. What we are in the mood for is less slaps on the wrist for gun related crime. And yes I have too many firearms for one guy. I admit it freely. Two milsurp ‘fun guns’ are going to be de-miled and become wall hangers soon. One old single action needs to be in the shop. The M4, trenchgun, and muzzle loader remain in the lineup because they are a hoot to shoot. After I took the safety course for concealed carry, I decided not to tote the 9mm everywhere for safety.

        • SullivanSt

          Given the gun buyback was most of the cost of the law, it seems likely that’s what Lambert was referring to when he initially called them “mostly a stupid waste of money”, before later being forced to admit “I was wrong about Australia’s gun laws“.

          A major part of how such a large number of criminals are able to get all the guns they want is the lack of gun control (private sale loophole; near-complete unenforceability of straw-man laws in light of binding precedent that prosecutors must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the gun was purchased with the pre-existing intent to transfer it to another party). A major part of why they want to is also the lack of gun control. A rational criminal who is confident that they won’t by confronted by an armed victim probably isn’t going to carry because of the increased risk to them – police are more likely to be vigorous in their investigation, and if caught the additional charges would significantly increase their sentence.

          Fun pop quiz: Name the three states with the highest homicide rates in the US, and compare their degree of gun regulation to states with lower homicide rates. Also discuss whether it’s remarkable that those states top the list in light of their degree of urbanicity compared to states with lower homicide rates.

  • Ryan Denniston

    But but but… Facts be damned because Sincerely Held Religious Belief (TM). Just like Obamacare, we don’t need nostinking facts, we have perceptions!

  • nightmoth

    You can see photos of the nine victims in Charleston here:
    http://www.wtoc.com/story/29352185/coroner-identified-nine-victims-in-emanuel-ame-church-shooting

    I always make myself look at the photos of the victims whenever one of these insane mass shootings happen. It reminds me they are more than statistics.

  • BeliTsari

    All of our lives we’ve had to listen & deal with these fucking sick-ass racist monsters. I just turned down working for one who’s response to a motel fire alarm was to keep his family inside the room, till he got his automatic shotgun. & .40 S&W autoloader, since he figured some (interject racist epithet here) had pulled the alarm to get white folks to peek their heads out so he could pick ’em off… FOX, Fred Koch, the GOP and the various Dominionist Churches did not start this, but they’ve sure all made out like bandits? Amen.

    • Incoming Ham

      Interesting how all of the flags at the South Carolina capitol are at half mast – except one.

      • BeliTsari

        Mrs. Haley, tear DOWN this RAG!

        • Lord-Nash

          Gov. Haley has released a statement that the Confederate flag will be flying at 3/5 mast to honor the victims. When asked if she thought this was racist, she said, “What? I have black friends on Facebook so I’m obviously not racist!”

          • BeliTsari

            And I heard, Vanna White’s at the tanning parlor to take over the local NAACP!

            Boo-RAH! Go JESUS!

  • Doug White

    I was on an ABC site yesterday where the whole gun discussion was happening, and I pointed out how the UK and Australia (among others) have now offered plenty of proof that serious gun control DOES reduce death rates (both violent and accident/suicide), and John Fucking Lott responded with a page or so of his nonsense! John “I lost my research data” Lott! I couldn’t believe it. I responded back, and included two links I found within 20 seconds detailing what a lying shill for the gun lobby he is!

    With paid ‘researchers’ like him around, willing to spread lies for money… we have to be extra diligent in repeating the truth. More Guns = MORE Death.

  • Bielzebubba

    “let’s concede that a fairly high percentage of the criminal homicides may have been committed with illegally obtained guns”

    Legally obtained in other states, usually. The NRA gun-fuckers like to forget all about the “legal” category the moment the guns are carted off to be sold on the streets.

  • r m reddicks

    I have a nice old ww2 rifle and a nice old cold war pistol. I’ve always liked the spooky action at a distance factor but this hound who’s decided to live here doesn’t like loud noises so the barrels seem to have cobwebs in them. I’d ditch the things if there were kids living here. (I do like the historic aspects of these machines. Thinking Stalingrad of the one and Warsaw Pact for the other.) I think that comes under the heading of full disclosure, for future reference.

  • Glaisne

    I believe in gun control. Conservatives, Republicans, and NRA members should not be allowed to own guns.

  • LoveSW_Prequels

    Compare the unintentional shootings to the self defense shootings, about twice as many unintended

  • Lord-Nash

    The first step to getting more accurate data to the FBI would be to have all states and all precincts use the same crime reporting system. Currently the US has two, SRS and NIBRS with the latter being more accurate and more current. The biggest difference is that the states under SRS don’t have to report all the crimes that occur, if several happen at the same time. So if you break into a house, shoot three people and kill two of them, but you stab and maim one of the dead, only the most violent crime will be reported. NIBRS would record all of the crimes. Some states have higher rates, but if you wanted to investigate which one had a lower crime rate, look at the reporting system. My old home of South Carolina (where NIBRS was first launched, and is one the few states where ALL precincts use NIBRS) seems to have a higher crime rate than say, Georgia. But Georgia uses SRS, and therefore we have no real idea. Sorry for the absence of snark, please don’t banhammer me but I thought maybe this was important to share.

    One last thing, I am so sick of hearing that the stats don’t take into account these imaginary, made up, ‘it didn’t happen because I had a gun’ factors that gun fondlers bring up when stats prove them wrong. It’s like Jon Stewart said: “Their paranoid fear of a possible dystopic future prevents us from
    addressing our actual dystopic present. We can’t even begin to address
    30,000 gun deaths that are actually in reality happening in this country
    every year because a few of us must remain vigilant against the rise of
    imaginary Hitler.” Amen sir, amen.

  • SPIDERMAN

    HEY FUCKBOYS, GUESS WHO’S BACK? WE WERE GOING TO TAKE A REST, BUT BLANK_RON DECIDED TO PROMPT US BY SAYING “BRONYISM DOESNT HURT NOBODY”! FUCK YOU AND THAT SHIT. BRONYS ARE INTO MOLESTING HORSES AND KIDS ALL DAY EVERY DAY. TRUTH.

    https://youtu.be/YZxsulBE3xc

  • Logan Waltz

    What an absurd article. Where is the accounting of how different states/cities report crimes? Did you know that in Chicago, the city doesn’t have enough money to pay enough cops, so if a murder isn’t solved, it isn’t even reported as a murder.

    Conservative estimates are that firearms are used 500,000 to 3,000,000 times every year in self defense. Firing a gun is in no way a requirement for self-defense and medical professionals (ER surgeons) generally agree that the amount of people surviving gunshots is about 80%. Based just on that 1 statistic, if 250 people are justifiably killed every year, 1000 people are justifiably shot in self-defense, but don’t die.

    To make any argument about property crimes having to do with firearms, you have to consider America as a vastly armed society compared to vastly defenseless countries like the UK or Australia where incredibly significant amounts of property crimes occur when residents are home. Criminals will attest that they will break in if you are home if they know you can’t stop them, but are less likely if they believe you may have a firearm.

    If you intend to argue about what a criminal will use to rob you inside or out of your home, you can consider the amount of murders that occur via hands/feet or common blunt objects. It’s also important to consider how many attackers/robbers there are. It is most common for these people to function in groups. Three 200 lb men breaking into your house with common baseball bats/ crowbars/ hammers are going to have no problem subduing a couple and raping/pillaging. Any gun, especially one with lots of bullets is going to even the tide, even for grandma.

    This article is either written from state of severe ignorance or blatant disingenuity.

  • WithoutRights

    Haha. What a joke of a biased article you wrote here. You must of known that most assailants who are stopped by gun owners are not killed. You must of known that criminals run at the sight or sound of a gun. Either you are a complete moron or you are a dishonest, agenda driven POS. I’m leaning toward the latter. I guess in your narrow worthless opinion self defense only counts when the assailant is killed. Grow a brain dolt.

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