Idiots On Aurora, Part Douche: God Was The Second Gunman And Many Victims Went to Hell

by Doktor Zoom

The Dark Knight has a lot of problems with you peopleA time of national tragedy is a time to come together as Americans, a time to heal, a time to put aside partisan differences and seek common ground. For instance, it is a time to remember that no man is an island, that we are all connected by bonds of community and love, and that one madman’s meticulously planned killing rampage may well have its roots in the Supreme Court’s decisions in Engel v. Vitale (1962) and Abington School District v. Schempp (1963), and for good measure maybe Roe v. Wade (1973). Echoing the “thoughts” of weasel-faced hate spigot Louis Gohmert, another prominent member of the Party of Personal Responsibility, Mike Huckabee, has come forward to explain that while James Holmes (whom Huckabee would not name, on the Voldemort Principle) had his finger on the trigger, he was urged on by millions of aborted fetuses and by the judicially mandated stifling of schoolchildren’s prayers.

Ultimately,” Huckabee concluded, “We don’t have a crime problem or a gun problem – or even a violence problem. What we have is a sin problem. And since we ordered God out of our schools and communities, the military and public conversations, you know, we really shouldn’t act so surprised when all hell breaks loose.”

In a similar vein, Fred Jackson, leader of the American Family Association, explained other aspects of the massive group effort that made the lone gunman’s slaughter possible:

I have to think that all of this, whether it’s the Hollywood movies, whether it’s what we see on the internets, whether it’s liberal bias in the media, whether it’s our politicians changing public policy, I think all of those somehow have fit together—and I have to say also churches who are leaving the authority of Scripture and losing their fear of God—all of those things have seem to have come together to give us these kinds of incidents.

Huckabee and Jackson appear to yearn for the halcyon days prior to the banishment of God from the classroom, when children prayed in school, most Americans went to Judeo-Christian churches and Judeo-Christian Synagogues, and there were almost no mass killings, but tens of thousands of people died from polio (The Almighty seems to like ironic coincidences: the oral polio vaccine was licensed in 1962, the same year as Engel v. Vitale “banned God from the classroom”).

In other news from the evangelical world, The Rev. Jerry Newcombe, of Truth in Action Ministries, made it absolutely clear that, even if many other sinners were responsible for the moral decline that made the Aurora shootings possible, victims of the massacre who ended up in hell have only themselves to blame:

If a Christian dies early, if a Christian dies young, it seems tragic, but really it is not tragic because they are going to a wonderful place.. on the other hand, if a person doesn’t know Jesus Christ.. if they knowingly rejected Jesus Christ, then, basically, they are going to a terrible place.

Newcombe did not specify whether he actually meant Hell, or possibly the GOP National Convention in Tampa, Florida.

Also, just so someone, somewhere, can feel justified in whining “but both sides do it!” here is a really badly written collection of cut-and-pasted theologibabble by an atheist that attempts to argue that “James Holmes’ rampage is the result of the teachings of Christianity.” Where most of the fundamentalists take the cartoonish position that fear of divine wrath is the only thing keeping people from going on murder sprees, this blogger takes the cartoonish position that if Christians believe Jesus takes away their sins, that encourages them to go on murder sprees for which Jesus will forgive them. So there you have it — full equivalence, insofar as some idiot on a blog is equivalent to the idiot head of a huge tax-exempt organization that influences national politics.

But enough about the relationship (none) between Americans’ religious habits and the actions of a guy who bought thousands of rounds of ammunition online — what about the easy availabilty of large amounts of increasingly lethal technology? One might think that is at least materially related to the Aurora shootings. But one would be very, very wrong in thinking that, according to Sen. Ron Johnson (R-WI), who recognizes that freedom’s just another word for nothing left to shoot:

People will talk about unusually lethal weapons, that could be potentially a discussion you could have. But the fact of the matter is there are 30-round magazines that are just common. You simply can’t keep these weapons out of the hands of sick, demented individuals who want to do harm. And when you try to do it, you restrict our freedoms.

Any restrictions on magazine sizes (for instance, the Clinton-era assault weapon ban that expired in 2004) would just make matters worse, because criminals would no longer fear responsible citizens packing a 100-round clip, adding that “If a responsible individual had been carrying a weapon, maybe, maybe they could have prevented some of those deaths, some of those injuries.” As Fox News would put it, there are those who say that additional guns would only add to the chaos and bloodshed in such a scenario, but maybe it’s worth some empirical testing. If anyone can identify any locations where death and suffering is reduced by well-armed citizens putting up resistance to armed aggressors, please forward that information to the Wonkette offices in Kabul, Baghdad, Belfast, Sarajevo, or Mogadishu.

 
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{ 337 comments }

DrunkIrishman July 23, 2012 at 8:34 pm

God just has to remind us that, yeah, he's an asshole sometimes.

miss_grundy July 23, 2012 at 10:52 pm

No, he isn't the asshole; it's the jerk who decided to kill those people who is the asshole. God allows you to be an asshole, because you choose what it is that you want to be.

MittBorg July 23, 2012 at 10:57 pm

Judging from the state of the world pretty much since the first sentient life evolved, if there is a god, it is a total fucking asshole most of the time.

Biel_ze_Bubba July 24, 2012 at 12:37 am

God is the original honey badger, that's all.

MittBorg July 24, 2012 at 12:51 am

That's almost more insulting than not having a god at all.

Biel_ze_Bubba July 24, 2012 at 2:30 am
ChillBill July 23, 2012 at 8:38 pm

Sometimes I wish that God existed, cause if he did, I'm pretty sure that he'd send these assholes straight to hell.

KeepFnThatOwl July 24, 2012 at 9:49 am

Y'know, I'd rather not. If such a creature were to display the same kind of needy psychopathy that he's famous for in the bible, I think we'd be staring at some unintended consequences…

Biff July 24, 2012 at 10:26 am

If he did exist, I'd be obliged to offer him a bag of lightly salted poisoned rat dicks.

glasspusher July 23, 2012 at 8:39 pm

…our weapons are quiet…precise…

Grief_Lessons July 23, 2012 at 9:04 pm

I remember the day I bought that issue like it was yesterday.

Doktor Zoom July 23, 2012 at 9:12 pm

The rain on my chest is a baptism—I'm born again

Grief_Lessons July 23, 2012 at 9:15 pm

All these years later the line I'm most apt to use in day to day conversation is "He's down, Lola, he's street pizza".

glasspusher July 23, 2012 at 9:24 pm

Rilly. A lot of the stuff in that book has entered my lexicon, and my older brother's and several of my friends.

When it all comes down, I want a piece of him. A small piece will do.
You know, it still hurts, when it's cold.
Goddamn fascist sons of bitches.

glasspusher July 23, 2012 at 9:25 pm

The Good Doktor has excellent taste. I guess this was back when we could respect Frank Miller?

Grief_Lessons July 23, 2012 at 9:30 pm

It's a long way from "I'm the goddamn Batman"

KeepFnThatOwl July 24, 2012 at 9:51 am

I think of this line every time it rains.

Damn you, I am tearing up…

glasspusher July 23, 2012 at 9:27 pm

I hit the engine. She responds like it was yesterday. It is yesterday…

It was both fun and torture waiting for the next issue to come out. I gave the 4 books to a friend who had somehow missed them, and he asked, "how did you possibly manage waiting for the next one to come out?"

HistoriCat July 23, 2012 at 11:18 pm

I keep up with these things Clark. One of us has to.

glasspusher July 23, 2012 at 11:46 pm

I think of Sarah. The rest is easy.Snark offFuck, a few years later I have a niece named Sarah, whose mom, my sister, is a fundamentalist Christian.Godamn, I photographed that girl's wedding in March.Gotta ask where my sister stands on gun control.

glasspusher July 23, 2012 at 11:49 pm

I might go down quicker than I plan, historicat, but trouble not the sage amongst his books.

Lazy Media July 23, 2012 at 8:40 pm

An armed society is a polite, and EXTREMELY VIOLENT society. But polite.

Boojum July 23, 2012 at 9:09 pm

Except to the extent poking holes in people is rude.

MacRaith July 23, 2012 at 9:14 pm

Because there's always a good reason to link to the Periodic Table of Science Fiction, here's the entry for lead.

BlueStateLibel July 23, 2012 at 9:21 pm

And jumpy, don't forget jumpy.

Guppy July 23, 2012 at 9:35 pm

"An armed society is a polite society" requires rational actors.

Swampgas_Man July 23, 2012 at 10:01 pm

Also noisy.

Doktor Zoom July 23, 2012 at 10:04 pm

And well-ventilated.

OneDollarJuana July 23, 2012 at 11:18 pm

Last time I checked, in the countries with the most arms floating around openly the populace seemed to be eternally-embroiled in civil wars and insurrections. Afghanistan and Somalia come to mind. Oh, and the Congo.

anniegetyerfun July 24, 2012 at 12:54 am

Hey, hey, we never said "safe". We said "polite".

OneYieldRegular July 23, 2012 at 11:56 pm

You obviously weren't riding the same bus I was riding today.

Biel_ze_Bubba July 24, 2012 at 12:05 am

Now, replay that, but with everybody carrying. See how nicely it all turns out? Most of the time?

CommieLibunatic July 24, 2012 at 12:51 pm

Word. It's not like the space orks ever get into random gunfights or start wars for fun.

sudsmckenzie July 23, 2012 at 8:40 pm

You Never go Full Gohmert.

Callyson July 24, 2012 at 1:44 am

Though judging from his comments, Gohmert appears to go ass to mouth…

johnnyzhivago July 23, 2012 at 8:40 pm

America won't be safe until fetuses are allowed to concealed carry!

extreme_left July 23, 2012 at 9:15 pm

Tyrant sperm will find no rest while I live!

UW8316154 July 23, 2012 at 10:01 pm

America won't be safe until sperm are armed!

starfanglednut July 23, 2012 at 10:19 pm

The little buggers don't even have hands. How could they cary guns?

glasspusher July 23, 2012 at 10:26 pm

wrap their flagella around them?

MittBorg July 23, 2012 at 10:19 pm

Er … with what?

va_real July 23, 2012 at 11:23 pm

Velcro?

MittBorg July 24, 2012 at 1:17 am

Wut they want to do velcro for, girl? Ain't no use to be stickin' to nuthin.

bobbert July 24, 2012 at 1:05 am

Nanotech fully-auto, um, molecule-shooters?

MittBorg July 24, 2012 at 1:16 am

I have my doubts that those will be effective against, for example, a big bad ovum.

Callyson July 24, 2012 at 1:45 am

I read that as "Arizona won't be safe until fetuses are allowed to concealed carry!'

Still makes sense to me…

rocktonsam July 23, 2012 at 8:42 pm

Huckabee has the luxury of worshiping a god that allows ole Huck to be big fat hypocrite that believes what he wants when he wants.

Ole Huck, God does have a sense of humor that only a big fat heart attack will you help you understand..

Keep licking them fingers asshole

alteredimages July 24, 2012 at 1:55 pm

Huckabee is a shitbaby cloned in a vat of santorum. It is the only logical explanation

anniegetyerfun July 23, 2012 at 8:43 pm

Maybe we could pass a law where, after some kind of tragedy like this, no one is allowed to say anything about it, and we all just send money to a fund to help the victims and their families. You could send a card with the money, but the only message allowed on the card would be "I am so sorry for your loss and pain."

starfanglednut July 23, 2012 at 10:19 pm

Upfisted for sanity.

Dashboard Buddha July 23, 2012 at 10:25 pm

You get my "human of the day" award. Utter brilliance.

Doktor Zoom July 23, 2012 at 10:37 pm

WHY U HATE FREE SPEACH!!!?????

KeepFnThatOwl July 24, 2012 at 9:53 am

Because FUCK the NCAA, that's why.

coolhandnuke July 23, 2012 at 10:49 pm

I have made a $50 donation to The Human Fund in your name.

anniegetyerfun July 24, 2012 at 12:54 am

Very generous.

bobbert July 24, 2012 at 1:06 am

This is the most sensible remark to follow this clusterfuck. If there were a Nobel Prize for Common Sense, you'd be a shoo-in.

anniegetyerfun July 24, 2012 at 1:09 am

You guys are too kind.

emmelemm July 24, 2012 at 2:59 am

A Nobel Prize for Common Sense. What a brilliant idea!

GlowneyHouse July 23, 2012 at 8:43 pm

Shorter Senator Johnson– The southeast has hurricanes, the midwest has tornadoes, the west has earthquakes and the whole country will have gun-fueled mass murders. We can't fix it, don't want to even try. It's a fact of life, nothing we can do about it.

BarackMyWorld July 23, 2012 at 8:45 pm

Wait…the internet hurt the newspaper business but helped the magazine business?? What??

glasspusher July 23, 2012 at 8:50 pm

If there were magazines without centerfolds or centerfolds without magazines (30 round or otherwise) I would not hesitate to choose the latter.

Biel_ze_Bubba July 24, 2012 at 12:08 am

Playboy sometimes has centerfolds good for 30 shots, and nobody complains.

MacRaith July 23, 2012 at 8:45 pm

It's people like this who make me want to exercise my twenty-first amendment rights.

Spurning Beer July 23, 2012 at 8:59 pm

Cheers!

Beowoof July 23, 2012 at 8:48 pm

Lock and load Jesus made an appearance. http://www.admit-one.net/index.php/2005/01/26/loc

Mittens Howell, III July 23, 2012 at 8:48 pm

Some people use guns to express their hatred of humanity, Huckabee uses his chat show on Fox news.

Veritas78 July 23, 2012 at 8:49 pm

We all know that the knuckle-draggers are just about to think of blaming it on science, and those smarty-pants graduate students.

The only solution is to have home-skooled PhD programs.

rocktonsam July 23, 2012 at 8:56 pm

how does a grad student pay for all that ammo and whatnot?

credit cards, student loans, pell grants?

its a government conspiracy ?

Spurning Beer July 23, 2012 at 9:02 pm

It wasn't too long ago that clergy were the educated ones in a community.

Imagine.

Boojum July 23, 2012 at 9:11 pm

Was the clergy smarter then or were the rest of us that much more stupid?

Doktor Zoom July 23, 2012 at 9:14 pm

Yes.

SayItWithWookies July 23, 2012 at 9:22 pm

They're still just as educated as they've ever been — it's society that has leapfrogged them.

Spurning Beer July 23, 2012 at 9:31 pm

I don't think so. Mainstream churches have generally required a three-year seminary degree post-college before ordination, sometimes with Greek and/or Hebrew language requirements and history coursework.

Since the evangelical epidemic, the educational standard has drifted lower and lower. Now, a year or two of bible college is okay, but home-schooling is even better.

starfanglednut July 23, 2012 at 10:21 pm

I think you can become a "reverend" online for like ten bucks.

SayItWithWookies July 23, 2012 at 10:33 pm

My problem is that religion is based on two logical fallacies: circular reasoning and argument from authority — in essence, God is morally right because God says God is morally right. It makes for a completely opaque morality that can be used to justify absolutely anything because it's completely insulated from logic.

So it doesn't matter how many years a clergyman has spent studying the defense of an argument based on circular reasoning and argument from authority — they haven't come up with anything better for 2,000 years, and never will. Anyone taught the simple application of reason and facts has an infinitely more useful key to morality as well as everything else.

carolinaswamp July 23, 2012 at 11:10 pm

Nope, I'm an Episcopalian in a backward state, and we require lots of education of our clergy. That doesn't help when the bishop sees himself riding a white horse into the arena of denominational strife and insists on finding a theology that satisfies those who believe that the problem of the metaphor of Christian marriage for the relationship between Christ and the Church has been insufficiently explored in the context of same-sex relationships. In short, even the well-educated can be utter nincompoops.

bobbert July 24, 2012 at 1:10 am

Well, I've never been convinced that Greek or Latin or Hebrew or Aramaic was that useful. I mean, sure, it's impressive to be able to learn another language, but if all you're going to use it for is to translate fantasy, WTF?

poorgradstudent July 23, 2012 at 9:09 pm

Given how little grad students are paid in stipends and research grants while athletic programs set atop university budgets like bloated tics, I can't help but wonder if grad students *are* now the postal workers of the '10s.

BerkeleyBear July 23, 2012 at 11:09 pm

Um, grad students have always been a target rich environment (no pun intended) for mental illness and sociopathic behavior. There's a reason academia is sometimes called a "sheltered workshop for the socially awkward."

I say all this, btw, against the backdrop of going back this fall to start a PhD in politics and public policy, nearly 15 years after getting my JD. So yeah, I'm speaking about myself.

MittBorg July 24, 2012 at 1:23 am

Yes, but you need to add the disclaimer that schizophrenia disproportionately affects men and the symptoms tend to manifest between the ages of 18 and 30 — which covers your graduate student demographic very neatly. Very very few women commit mass murders; this particular type of killing seems to predominate among young males, and usually includes the death by suicide of the killer. In this young man's case, I don't think anyone will argue against mental illness.

Congratulations on your return to school, btw. And I think you fall outside the, uh, target group, so I hope we may look forward to many more years of enjoying your wit.

Mittens Howell, III July 23, 2012 at 8:51 pm

The Christian Right, restricting the freedom of people to not get shot in the head while peacefully going about their lives, since forever.

Biel_ze_Bubba July 24, 2012 at 12:12 am

To tell the truth, if you're not a member of their cult, they're not all that pleased to see you peacefully going about your life, period.

johnnyzhivago July 23, 2012 at 8:52 pm

Money making idea!!! Gun mounts for Hoverrounds!

Seriously the gun problem in the US is basically the same problem we have with everything else – most Americans are morons.

I don't own a gun for a number of reasons, but do live in a very rural area. I personally have no problems with guns and used to go shooting (at ranges) with friends guns quite frequently. But with kids and no particular thing to be concerned about protecting ourselves from – it seemed to make zero sense. In fact several of our kids friend's parents would not even let them come over until they asked us if we had guns in the house. Pretty sensible (although around here, it might be a lonely kid)

We had some coyote problems and a neighbor who is even more liberal than me, a college professor and well known area environmentalist offered to lend me her shotgun. I was stunned, but then realized that the problem is that intelligent Americans on farms, hunters, etc who need or want a gun shouldn't have a problem getting one or be concerned about proving they are not a criminal or lunatic.

The problem is the assault weapons, etc that are easily bought and sold and end up in the hands of nutcases. I know a couple of people who DO own these types of weapons and all are the type who are convinced that Obama will be storming their homes with the UN any time now.

Arrgghh!!

starfanglednut July 23, 2012 at 10:23 pm

Common sense gun regulations = Hitler.

AbandonHope July 23, 2012 at 11:16 pm

Money making idea!!! Gun mounts for Hoverrounds!

Oh god oh god be quiet, you're going to give somebody an idea.

Biel_ze_Bubba July 24, 2012 at 12:20 am
bobbert July 24, 2012 at 1:12 am

What, now I have to buy an RPG on the internetz?

(Actually, of course, a cocktail would probably work fine).

Biel_ze_Bubba July 24, 2012 at 2:34 am

Nah … that looks like 1/4" plywood. Anything above a .38 should do the job. But definitely the RPG, if you're gonna put it on YouTube.

Chet Kincaid July 24, 2012 at 10:10 am

"I was stunned, but then realized that the problem is that intelligent Americans on farms, hunters, etc who need or want a gun shouldn't have a problem getting one or be concerned about proving they are not a criminal or lunatic."

That doesn't make any sense. How are we supposed to know anyone isn't a "criminal or lunatic"? By profiling them? Helped a lot in Colorado. No, EVERYONE should have to go through some kind of screening to make sure they are responsible enough to own a gun, no free passes.

johnnyzhivago July 24, 2012 at 10:28 am

I agree!  Didn't mean to imply that farmers and hunters aren't lunatics! 

Rotundo_ July 23, 2012 at 8:56 pm

Johnson is the biggest hack we have sent to the senate since Tailgunner Joe belched forth his line of crap about commies behind every bush. This one is only wealthy by dint of marrying into money and only in the senate because the idiot vote swept a load of vermin into offices throughout the state. Money can buy you a state these days, and Wisconsin went pretty cheap. I just hope the other senate seat doesn't go idiot this time as well: It's Tommy Thompson (who conjugates the verb "to think" as "I Tink" "You Tank" and "Dey Tunk") Mark Neumann, a republican so awful even the party stalwart hate him (a perennial candidate when he senses an opening in a weak field) and Eric Hovde, a former investment banker of the breed that sunk the economy last time out versus Tammy Baldwin. Thompson has the best chance to beat her, Neumann is so reviled he won't survive the primary and Eric has a pretty good campaign chest and is a vulgarian twit. We already have one vulgarian twit representing us in the senate, I hope it doesn't become a matched set.

rocktonsam July 23, 2012 at 9:03 pm

Neumann's ego won't let him quit. He hasn't won anything since a Super Bowl pool in 95

Tammy will win, easy

rocktonsam July 23, 2012 at 9:46 pm

and also too, there is an election in August up here and then of course in November.

We lost in 2010 because the kids and the blahs didn't vote. Voter burn out could occur, but these progressives up here are azzkickers, smart and honest ,God bless em all.

As a state employee who has had to deal with these fuckers, I think things will turn around, I really do.

bobbert July 24, 2012 at 1:25 am

As a native, but long absent, Badger I have to ask "How the fuck did Johnson get elected?". Was Russ just unwilling to go after him hard for being a fucking golddigger? I've lived in California for forty years and I knew Ron Johnson got all his "business success" from his father-in-law.

I mean, I know the state is always just slightly blue on average. It was when I grew up there, and hasn't changed since. But fuck me, y'all elected this pointless weasel instead of Feingold?

Mittens Howell, III July 23, 2012 at 8:56 pm

When Huckabee gets to heaven god will serve him fried squirrel from his Holy popcorn popper.

Nostrildamus July 23, 2012 at 8:56 pm

James Holmes is a stone on which many axes will be ground.

Self-Uploader July 23, 2012 at 8:57 pm

"I have to think that all of this, whether it’s the Hollywood movies, whether it’s what we see on the internets, whether it’s liberal bias in the media, whether it’s our politicians changing public policy, I think all of those somehow have fit together—and I have to say also churches who are leaving the authority of Scripture and losing their fear of God—all of those things have seem to have come together to give us these kinds of incidents."

Or as Tina Fey channeling Sarah Palin said about global warming, "maybe it's just God's way of hugging us closer."

glasspusher July 23, 2012 at 10:20 pm

Tina Fey can hug me as close as she wants.

Fraudulently_Joe July 23, 2012 at 8:58 pm

As bad as Hell is made to sound, I still have my doubts, theologically. After all, it would take an awful lot of eternal torture to balance out the possibility of sharing an afterlife with Jerry Newcombe.

Biel_ze_Bubba July 24, 2012 at 12:32 am

What makes you think you can't have both?

MittBorg July 24, 2012 at 1:25 am

You have no mercy. None at all. (doffs hat) I like that in a … demon.

Mittens Howell, III July 23, 2012 at 8:58 pm

".. on the other hand, if a person doesn’t know Jesus Christ.. if they knowingly rejected Jesus Christ, then, basically, they are going to a terrible place."

Breitbart TV?

viennawoods13 July 23, 2012 at 11:11 pm

An old guy tried to tell me that in MacDonald's last week. I was very polite but basically told him to fuck off. I just wanted to enjoy my coffee and free wifi in peace.

Schmegeg July 24, 2012 at 12:18 am
finallyhappy July 24, 2012 at 7:44 am

I have personally rejected Jesus Christ and I got to go to Paris last week and eat expensive food, pastries and chocolate.

Mittens Howell, III July 23, 2012 at 8:59 pm

Guns don't kill people, supporting a living wage, equality, and health care for all kills people.

fuflans July 23, 2012 at 9:24 pm

and obama of course

Nostrildamus July 23, 2012 at 9:01 pm

The Aurora incident also lends further support to astrology, the existence of Big Foot, Snookie's new diet and Bose Einstein condensation theory.

Biel_ze_Bubba July 24, 2012 at 12:27 am

Has anybody blamed the Higgs boson yet? I think that's about the only thing left on the menu, for the people who just can't accept the "he's nuts" theory.

bobbert July 24, 2012 at 1:28 am

Wait a fucking minute. Bose-Einstein condensates are a real thing.

johnnyzhivago July 23, 2012 at 9:02 pm

Why does America limit my FREEDOM to purchase tactical nuclear weapons?

gogogodzilla July 23, 2012 at 11:12 pm

Purchase? Just whip up your own in the garage. That's what I do. For the plutonium, I know a guy. He says it fell off the back of a truck on the NJ Turnpike.

bobbert July 24, 2012 at 1:29 am

How much per kg?

thatsitfortheother1 July 24, 2012 at 5:55 am

Tactical? Why think small?

HistoriCat July 24, 2012 at 9:47 am

Because strategic nukes are so big they need their own seat at the movie theater – and have you seen ticket prices these days?!?

Fraudulently_Joe July 23, 2012 at 9:02 pm

I have a confuse. If the problem is that we took God out of society, then why is it those Godless British atheists have something like 30 times fewer gun murders than we do, and despite making up the difference in knifecrime, still end up with less than a quarter of the murder rate we have, weighted for population?

Why does God love the Godless Brits more than He loves His Chosen People, White American Conservatives?

Doktor Zoom July 23, 2012 at 9:07 pm

Mind you, our population is pretty seriously weighted. Maybe some of that flab absorbs bullets better…

BerkeleyBear July 23, 2012 at 11:11 pm

It sure doesn't stop them (Mythbusters actually tested the bullet resistant properties of fat – pretty horrifying).

anniegetyerfun July 23, 2012 at 9:10 pm

Haha, shut the hell up with your logic.

fuflans July 23, 2012 at 9:11 pm

the british are worse shots.

BerkeleyBear July 23, 2012 at 11:14 pm

Except at the Olympics, where somehow people from all sorts of low-homicide countries from all over Europe kick the shit out of the NRA's Dream Team (outside of some of the shotgun sports).

Biel_ze_Bubba July 24, 2012 at 12:30 am

There's no medals for assault rifle? What's with the anti-USA bias??!!?

Boojum July 23, 2012 at 9:15 pm

We worship guns.

BoatOfVelociraptors July 23, 2012 at 9:32 pm

The Church of England wishes to disagree. ish.

MosesInvests July 23, 2012 at 9:45 pm

Cake-or death!

extreme_left July 23, 2012 at 9:33 pm

it's the british teeth

imissopus July 23, 2012 at 9:37 pm

Because shut up, that's why.

va_real July 23, 2012 at 11:32 pm

If he really loved the Brits more, wouldn't he want to get them to heaven quicker???

sbj1964 July 23, 2012 at 9:04 pm

Mike Huskter-a-bee is a Joke/A very sad little failed man.Only on Fox News can he spread his ignorance.He should go home ,and ask himself is this what JC would be saying?What a Fucktard!

SayItWithWookies July 23, 2012 at 9:05 pm

If a Christian dies early, if a Christian dies young, it seems tragic, but really it is not tragic because they are going to a wonderful place.

I may disagree with Newcombe's belief, but after this massacre I wouldn't begrudge anyone expressing what comforts themselves. It's the bullshit after that that gets me fuckin' annoyed — Mr. Newcombe, if you don't have the fuckin' civility to affirm what sustains you in a time of loss without trashing people who disagree with you, then you don't fuckin' deserve to be anyone's spiritual leader — and anyone who follows you is a fuckin' hateful bastard.

rocktonsam July 23, 2012 at 10:36 pm

and if by chance, god forbid, this asshole was in a place were something as awful as this may happen, this asshole will do all he can to save his own sorry ass and nobody else.

poorgradstudent July 23, 2012 at 9:07 pm

In America, tragedies not only bring us together they also bring out the dumb.

Angry_Marmot July 23, 2012 at 9:12 pm

Was the Bath, Michigan massacre before or after Huckabee's Golden Age? Or had the killer been provoked by the Scopes Monkey Trial, federal income tax and votes for women?

Doktor Zoom July 23, 2012 at 9:18 pm

Andrew Kehoe was a time traveler from post-1962 America.

SayItWithWookies July 23, 2012 at 10:03 pm

And a suicide bomber no less. I've never heard of this guy before — then again, I can see why my public school curriculum might not have found room for him.

kingofmeh July 24, 2012 at 12:02 am

while charles whitman shot 48 people, killing 16, in 1966 – a few years after the decisions in question – it seems clear he was educated long before the decisions took effect (he was 25 at the time).

i suppose it would also be unlikely that a student at a bible college in california – where talking about jesus is presumably not restricted by the law – would have shot 10 people on the campus of his bible college, killing 7 of them, three months ago.

extreme_left July 23, 2012 at 9:15 pm

I blame the internets

mavenmaven July 23, 2012 at 9:16 pm

The sad truth is that theologically two of these points are true, one is that to the evangelical, if someone is killed or dies prior to being born again, they are damned to hell for all eternity (even Mother Teresa, according to Jimmy Swaggart), and on the other hand, if any kind of sinner is born again, all their previous sins are erased, in fact, the Rev William Hull attempted to "save" Eichmann prior to his execution, "because Jesus died for his soul as much as for mine…".

BoatOfVelociraptors July 23, 2012 at 9:34 pm

According to the babies in this restaurant, being born the first time is hellish enough.

MittBorg July 23, 2012 at 10:30 pm

You'd be complaining loudly too if someone evicted you from your comfy house that came with perfect lighting, temperature, absorbency, plus built-in terlet and food tube. And then there you are, a helpless puling infant, and the assholes who had you drag you out into a restaurant where OTHER kids are screaming, which upsets you, so you scream, but everyone ignores you. And what have you got to look forward to? Sixty years or more of working your ass off and you never get to back to that nice warm haven, neither.

I think I'm beginning to see why humanity's fantasies of the future involve feeding tubes and warm ambiance.

Doktor Zoom July 23, 2012 at 10:33 pm

+1 for "puling"

MittBorg July 23, 2012 at 10:55 pm

That did sort of slip out real easy, din't it? I must be channeling BoatOfVelociraptor's babies.

SayItWithWookies July 23, 2012 at 10:14 pm

And this is exactly why theology belongs in a nice little museum display with other quaint but revolting formerly commonplace objects such as the iron maiden, the witch ducking chair, the slave branding iron and the caste system, accompanied by a plaque that begins "While primitive peoples relied on these horrific things out of ignorance, we as a people should know better because…" which kids should be obligated to memorize.

NellCote71 July 23, 2012 at 10:27 pm

". . . they are damned to hell for all eternity (even Mother Teresa, according to Jimmy Swaggart)." And Christopher Hitchens.

Beowoof July 23, 2012 at 10:52 pm

I think Jimmy is expecting hookers from New Orleans to be there to make his stay more to his liking.

MittBorg July 23, 2012 at 10:56 pm

"Just the tip!"

bobbert July 24, 2012 at 1:32 am

Mm, no, I think you'd have a pretty hard time finding a Hitch reference to an actual Hell.

NellCote71 July 24, 2012 at 8:19 am

I was referring to Hitch's opinion of Mother Theresa, which on this subject at least held common ground with Jimmy Swagger. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting...

JustPixelz July 23, 2012 at 9:16 pm

If we can imagine the activist justices on the Supreme Court hadn't nullified the "well regulated" portion of the Second Amendment… if we can imagine that, suppose we require gun buyers to have someone co-sign for their character and good intentions. That would stop loners and nuts and possible suicides. But let's take it one more step: The co-signer must be a member of the clergy. Surely every man of the cloth would be happy to help a pious parishioner get a gun. That would let Huckabee and his cohorts put God in the trigger finger.

savethispatient July 23, 2012 at 10:03 pm

Who Would Jesus Shoot?

emmelemm July 24, 2012 at 3:05 am

"All of them, Katie!", she shouted joyously.

Boojum July 23, 2012 at 9:17 pm

"If a Christian dies early, if a Christian dies young, it seems tragic, but really it is not tragic because the people I consider Christian really, it is just not that fucking big a deal."

FTFY

BerkeleyBear July 23, 2012 at 9:18 pm

So the lack of constant indoctrination is to blame for sociopathic behavior, is that the argument? So anyone who had lots of constant Christian value drumbeats wouldn't commit atrocities? Hmm, I'm just guessing here, but you might just hear different from surviving members of the Lakota, Apache and Cherokee. Or from Vietnamese of a certain age. Or from the family of the numerous mentally challenged and/or likely innocent people executed by the great state of Texas in the last decade.

Doktor Zoom July 23, 2012 at 9:19 pm

Clearly, Christ's message of love didn't take with some people because their parents failed to beat it into them.

BoatOfVelociraptors July 23, 2012 at 9:36 pm

And don't even talk about the catholic "message of love".

Doktor Zoom July 23, 2012 at 10:06 pm

message, massage, whatevs

MittBorg July 23, 2012 at 10:31 pm

I'd like to, but they made me sign an agreement.

finallyhappy July 24, 2012 at 7:50 am

Actually, mentally ill(not accused of crimes) people who were institutionalized were subjected to horrific experiments in many parts of the US for a good part of the 1900's -right here in Maryland included. So plenty of fine Christian doctors did experiments not very far from what was done in Nazi Germany. Read Henrietta Lacks- just one source of how mentally ill people and prisoners were used- Henrietta's daughter was in a mental institution. People know about Tuskegee but much of the rest is still kept quiet.

fuflans July 23, 2012 at 9:22 pm

didn't huckabee's kid have a problem with something about killin?

weird coming from that christian famly with all them christian teachin.

course then, dog's don't count.

MittBorg July 23, 2012 at 10:32 pm

Torturing — and killing. Revolting bastards.

Jadetiger79 July 24, 2012 at 12:52 am

And that dog won't hunt a'tall.

StarsUponThars July 23, 2012 at 9:26 pm

We the people have endured endless restrictions on our freedom since 9/11 in the name of protecting us from terrorists. How is gun control any different?

va_real July 23, 2012 at 11:37 pm

Because shut up is why!

b[redact]opple July 24, 2012 at 1:49 pm

James Holmes isn't a Muslin. Duh.

chascates July 23, 2012 at 9:29 pm

Czechoslovakia is supposed to be the country with the highest percentage of atheists (I thought of emigrating but the language seems pretty tricky) and they don't have the level of violence we do. Maybe being previously Communist God forgot about the place and decided not to smite them. And Israel and Switzerland have civilian populations armed to the teeth. They don't seem to have these mass slayings.
I think the first major mass slaying (other than cavalry vs. native Americans) was the 1966 UT Tower shooting by Charles Whitman. Relatively few other countries have had them, exceptions being England, Scotland, Australia, and Norway among others.
It could be that in addition to our love of firearms and easy access to them we're just a fairly young and diverse society where the individual is more important than the group. That and disco music. Disco music makes me want to kill.

savethispatient July 23, 2012 at 9:58 pm

The death of a disco dancer.
Well, it happens a lot round here
and if you think peace is a common goal
that goes to show how little you know…

va_real July 23, 2012 at 11:38 pm

Morrissey?

savethispatient July 24, 2012 at 1:11 am

Yes. Well, the Smiths, but same difference.

va_real July 24, 2012 at 1:29 am

Nah- I'm too old to care much about Morrisey's solo career…

User-of-Scowls July 23, 2012 at 10:31 pm

Righto Chas. I was going to comment on this excerpt from Dok:

Huckabee and Jackson appear to yearn for the halcyon days prior to the banishment of God from the classroom, when children prayed in school, most Americans went to Judeo-Christian churches and Judeo-Christian Synagogues, and there were almost no mass killings

Yes, Native Americans, but also coal miners, unions, child-labor, 100,000 Japs/night, the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment, Vietnam…what else am I forgetting?
Fuck Huck.

chascates July 23, 2012 at 10:46 pm

And everyone in power was white and had easily pronounced names and the coloredz were kept in their place and LGBTs were in the closet, ad nauseam.

tessiee July 24, 2012 at 1:43 am

"There were no immigrants. There were no Negroes." — "Ragtime"

BerkeleyBear July 23, 2012 at 11:24 pm

The question becomes one of definition. What is a "mass slaying" in this sense? Focusing on the firearm aspect is going to be self limiting, since before the 1850s or so there weren't reliable repeating guns, and the first real large magazine high damage weapons came out in the 20s and 30s (Tommy Guns, for example). So the sociopaths (who we know existed) weren't in position to kill as many people with a gun as with explosives, poisons or other weapons until relatively recently, which could lend a false veneer of credibility to the insane claim that this behavior is truly a product of modern society.

HistoriCat July 23, 2012 at 11:50 pm

Angry_Marmot's reference to the Bath School killings (above) shows that even before modern firearm technology an enterprising person in the right position could pull off a mass killing … today's weapons have just democratized the effort.

emmelemm July 24, 2012 at 2:53 am

I read the link on that – apparently he set his house on fire (after killing his wife) so that the fire department would go en masse to his house, and thus be busy when the school blew up.

I believe the word for that is "diabolical".

But also, too, insane yet good at planning.

MittBorg July 24, 2012 at 3:52 am

Insane people don't lose all their abilities, you know. It depends on their particular insanity. For example, I'm convinced my mother was insane for the better part of her life. But her *particular* insanity happened to be a personality disorder, that left her free to exercise an incredible degree of cunning and skill at manipulating those around her into believing that she was a poor helpless woman victimized by others. She managed to surround herself with a little court of sycophants, who never saw the crazy side of her and took it upon themselves to "protect" her from those of us who had to put up with the crazy daily.

bobbert July 24, 2012 at 1:37 am

So, just on the "emigrating" part, if you're serious. Very many Europeans speak serviceable English. Not all of them will immediately admit it, but if you are polite, they will often give up. This will give you time to learn the language.

finallyhappy July 24, 2012 at 7:56 am

Yes, I met a young man at a laundry in Paris- he spoke to me in French – I barely understood but basically communicated enough(including gestures) to help him get soap and start the washer. When he left, he said to me in beautifully british accented English " thank you, Madam and have a very good day". Also immigrants here speak 2 and sometimes 3 languages- and these are not the World Bank types- these are the people who ride the S-2 and S-4 And 70 buses in DC(not for you tourists- everyone else on the bus is hispanic or African- occasionally American black- and me)

fuflans July 23, 2012 at 9:30 pm

on the other OTHER hand, i just heard some 17 year old interpret and play a bach partita live on the radio (from canada, obv).

fairly soul restoring it must be said.

Blueb4sinrise July 23, 2012 at 10:29 pm

Heh , heh, tita……..

viennawoods13 July 23, 2012 at 11:19 pm

You were listening to Jian Ghomeshi!

fuflans July 23, 2012 at 11:36 pm

guilty as charged.

lovely yes?

So Tired July 23, 2012 at 9:33 pm

Ya know how the conservatives are using the power they have now to chip away, hell, do a hatchet job on constitutionally protected right to abortions? Maybe if libs got control of a governorship and house they could chip away at the insanity that are gun laws. Just sayin'.
Chip. Chip. Chip.

Swampgas_Man July 23, 2012 at 10:08 pm

Wouldn't do that; might offend the Right, which the Left never, EVER wants to do.

alteredimages July 24, 2012 at 1:49 pm

Certainly not the cowardly Vichy Left we have in America now.

SayItWithWookies July 23, 2012 at 10:46 pm

Promote the general welfare? Ha — if that was important it'd be in the Constitution.

va_real July 23, 2012 at 11:41 pm

+1, dude. Would be more, but it's all I can give.

glasspusher July 23, 2012 at 9:38 pm

I won't know how to feel about this post until Chet weighs in on the Batman/Miller reference. I think we all feel the same about the Huckster :(

extreme_left July 23, 2012 at 9:39 pm

I agree with the 'atheist', people who have a voice in their head from a invisible man underground and in the sky are mentally ill, thus liable to do fucked up shit.

Dashboard Buddha July 23, 2012 at 9:39 pm

I'm going to say something that may piss off many of you and for that I'm sorry, but here goes.

I responded to the massacre in Aurora in much the same way as I would when a friend of mine would tell me she was coughing a lung out while she was sick with the flu. I would be all, 'natch…that's part of having the flu'.

The massacre is horrible, no doubt…but I'm starting to see this as just a symptom of a larger illness. I grew up during the height of the cold war…duck and cover, B-52s taking off from MacDill AFB…"evil empire"…the whole shootin' match. Not once did I ever feel so hopeless for the human race in general and the American people in particular as I do now. As Bill Hicks said, "we are a virus with shoes". We as a world/nation have become so fearful, so hateful, so bloody-minded, so protective of our class, our caste, our country, sect, our name or our tribe that I think we're just at the middle of the beginning of the sickness.

We're going to see a whole lot more of this. Aurora? Arizona? Virginia? These are just the beginning sniffles. The real coughing hasn't started yet.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled snark.

chascates July 23, 2012 at 9:59 pm

D.B. here's an article for a bit of perspective: http://nymag.com/news/frank-rich/declining-americ
Better yet, re (or re-read) Richard J. Hofstadter's The Paranoid Style in American Politics from 1963 along with his Anti-intellectualism in American Life, also 1963.
The instant feedback of social media and 24/7 cablestrom make the worst of society rise to the top like a national septic tank.

Dashboard Buddha July 23, 2012 at 10:15 pm

I hope you don't think I'm pining for the "good old days". There weren't really any such days. That being said, I think we're entering the What The Fuck days.

Perhaps it seems that the US is sinking because the rest of the world is rising, but I would submit that rising states such as India and China will be, when push comes to shove, just as douchebaggy as the US. In fact, I've read a couple of articles that describes China's growth as unsustainable. I don't know if that's true or not…but if it is, there are gonna be a BILLION pissed off Chinese when the shit hits the fan. As I understand it, war makes for an effective distraction from social/political/economic woes at home.

I only bring up the massacres in the US as an example of a larger problem. People I know/family members are all up in arms (no pun intended) about the tragedy in Aurora and I was wondering why I wasn't getting as worked up about it as other folks. Then it dawned on me…I'm just girding myself for worse things to come.

It's going to be an awesome middle age for me.

chascates July 23, 2012 at 10:27 pm

It may be a shitty OLD age for me! My hope was a quiet life in rural northern (or western) Spain but things there as well as many places in the EU may not be that much fun. So far as America I believe the hard right wants this country to be no or low taxes, no government services except a voracious military, and strict laws based on their idea of biblical instructions. By that point my idea is a small house in a very rural area where I hope I can keep myself intoxicated enough to stand it.

MittBorg July 23, 2012 at 11:02 pm

Does it have to be a very rural area, my friend?

finallyhappy July 24, 2012 at 7:59 am

I saw an Aussie woman who bought a tiny house in Portugal on House Hunters International. Not too expensive to buy and if you live right- even including alcohol, not too hard to afford.

va_real July 23, 2012 at 11:50 pm

From what I know of history, it seems that we go through cycles. Things get bad, people get fed up & do heroic things to fix the mess, then things are okay for a while until folks get complacent & forget about the safeguards designed to protect society & then things start to go to hell in a handbasket again…

I think we're near the beginning of the 'people getting fed up' stage, but not ready for the heroics yet. I hope to contribute once we get there- if I live long enough.

MittBorg July 23, 2012 at 11:01 pm

Thank you, chas. Frank Rich is always worth a read.

On a more personal note: When I lived on a farm, I was so exhausted by the end of the day that I fell into bed and lost consciousness pretty much the minute the sun set. How on earth do you manage to work on a farm AND keep up with your reading? And it's not exactly *light* reading, either.

Of course, back when I was a farming sprout, we didn't HAVE InterNetz. Hell, we didn't even have electricity on our farm.

User-of-Scowls July 23, 2012 at 10:01 pm

Yes Virginia, we are exceptional.

Doktor Zoom July 23, 2012 at 10:10 pm

And yet there's also this.

Dashboard Buddha July 23, 2012 at 10:19 pm

I will read that and perhaps change my pov. Gods knows, it can use a change.

User-of-Scowls July 23, 2012 at 10:38 pm

Thanks Dok.
Clearly we live in the safest, least violent times in the history of mankind. There is a reason our life expectancy is 2-3 fold what it was just a century or so ago.Sure there is punctual violence, but the media hype plays a huge factor in this misperception. Compound that with American exceptionalism — what? 3,000 died here, millions must pay, and the fearful little bunnies are easily duped.

Doktor Zoom July 23, 2012 at 11:12 pm

"American Exceptionalism"– a term coined, I didn't realize until I read the Rich piece above, by Stalin

User-of-Scowls July 23, 2012 at 11:17 pm

Damn Dok, I really do need to get out and read more.

BerkeleyBear July 24, 2012 at 12:49 am

The good news is that we humans are, on average, leading longer and healthier lives. We actually have managed to go over 50 years without a massive world war (by which I mean at least two preeminent powers fighting a total, declared war on at least a continental scale). That, for all the doom and gloom of the Cold War and the nebulous regional unrest of the last 20 years, is damn near a record for at least the last 1000 years. We haven't had a true global pandemic in almost 100 years (I'm dating the last one as the 1919-20 influenza).

The bad news is, that because of all those influences, coupled with the rise of truly instant mass media, we are instantly aware of every bad and aberrant incident, and they truly stand out. You can even see it in our literature. Contemporary novels, even those dubbed appropriate for children, used to take infant mortality and death generally as everyday occurrences. You do that these days with anything but a wizard or vampire and people think it is too dark for kids. And every time something like this happens, there's a wave of people telling parents to keep their offspring even more isolated, which reinforces the isolation and makes the next incident hard to deal with.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that your odds of living a long life are pretty good. Unless you can live as a hermit, though, it means you'll be exposed to a lot of crap. So as it ever was, your far from easy task is to find some form of peace in the shit storm, either through meditation, medication, self-improvement, self-delusion or self-destruction. For my part, I wish you (and all my fellow Wonketeers) luck in finding a path that fits you.

Jadetiger79 July 24, 2012 at 1:01 am

You're awesome. Thank you.

MittBorg July 24, 2012 at 1:31 am

Thank you.

bobbert July 24, 2012 at 2:37 am

Well, this may piss you off, too, but the fact is that gunfire massacrees are a pretty small component of the overall death rate in the US. I looked at the CDC tables for cause of death (for 2008, the latest released). Deaths by firearm are just about the same (30,000) as deaths by motor vehicle accident. One distinctive thing is that more than half the gun deaths were suicide.

There were about 13,000 gun-related homicides per year, or about 36 per day. I am not, honestly, trying to minimize the horror of the Aurora theatre shooting, but statistically it was just a biggish blip. Every day, three times as many people are shot to death in the United States.

We pay more attention to wholesale gun deaths than to retail ones. This is because a mass shooting makes us realize, intensely, that we could actually be victims. Nevertheless, homicide by gun is somewhere around the thirtieth or fiftieth probable cause of death for USAmericans.

/Snark off, if it wasn't already. I support making extended magazines illegal (what is the fucking point?). I support making hollow-point bullets illegal (the point of hollow-points is to kill human beings more efficiently). I support measures that would prevent individuals from purchasing 6,000 rounds of ammo on the internet in less than, say, six years.

I grant you that there will be other mass shootings. Restricting magazines and ammo could reduce their impact, but I don't expect that. My point is that it will be a fucking long time before the occasional wholesale shootings outscore the day-to-day retail shootings. (I think I was supposed to turn the snark back on somewhere).

finallyhappy July 24, 2012 at 8:02 am

good to remember – I expect to die crushed by a semi on the Beltway or live longer and die from heart disease like my parents(mom died at 91- but she didn't drive on th Beltway or I-95)

MittBorg July 24, 2012 at 12:57 pm

On a *sorta* cheery note (OK, I have weird definitions of "cheery"), it's MUCH better than dying in one's bed after losing one's mobility and one's mind.

Chet Kincaid July 24, 2012 at 10:22 am

Anecdotal outlying incidents make us feel awful, but only a real understanding of statistics and overall trends can give us a perspective on where we're heading. If massacres happened every weekend, I would freak out about this type of crime. Meanwhile, 13 people were shot in Chicago since Monday night. And that happens twice a week. So I don't need the actions of a red headed psychopath to suggest that society might be fucked up.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/crime/13965148-418/1

Dashboard Buddha July 24, 2012 at 10:41 am

Good point Chet…and it puts a finer point on things. Folks are all, OMG death in a movie theater…what will we do about Aurora, but kind of meh about the mayhem in Chicago (unless you live there or someone points it out to you). If I think about it, the "meh" part might bother most of all.

MittBorg July 24, 2012 at 1:02 pm

The FBI/DoJ keep telling us the crime stats are dropping, FWIW. All I know is, I have friends who live in nearby cities who hear gunfire near their homes *every* night. We're so blase about that now, nobody even bothers to ask about the death toll.

The only reason we're all panties-in-a-twist about THIS is, it could have been US. I know this. I know this. I know that when shootings and killings happen in the poorer parts of town, my neighbours and I look around and think, Thank goodness nothing like that happens in OUR neighbourhood.

coolhandnuke July 23, 2012 at 9:40 pm

Huckabee is experiencing Aurora Boariassholus; the phenomenon of a douchebag with a microphone under his morally superior stage lights.

glasspusher July 23, 2012 at 10:19 pm

Well said, sadly.

SayItWithWookies July 23, 2012 at 11:26 pm

Wasn't it Herr Huckabee who wrote Mein Kleig?

C_R_Eature July 23, 2012 at 9:43 pm

So, the primary reason we have such a self-centered, fearful and violent society today is that Liberal Secular Humanists ordered God out of the public sphere, libertines in Hollywood are producing ungodly movies, there's smut and violence for free on the Internet, the national Media is a hotbed of Liberal Thought, Churches are straying from the rigid authoritarian interpretation of theology that is currently in favor and Politicians are "changing public policy". That about sum it up?

The Problem, it seems, is never within their own society, their own communities, what is on their favorite radio and TV stations, what's preached in their pulpits and who's looking back at them in their own mirrors.

I'd have a lot more respect for these Christians if they didn't expend so much time and energy looking for other people to blame for their own moral failings.

Doktor Zoom July 23, 2012 at 10:11 pm

You're a Young Goodman, Charlie Brown.

C_R_Eature July 23, 2012 at 10:26 pm

They call all of Salem the Gookin's tribe.

Call me Deacon Blue.

va_real July 24, 2012 at 1:49 am

And if you're buying the next round
Then you're a good man Albert Brown…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBmNiHrvRbk

C_R_Eature July 24, 2012 at 5:41 am
bobbert July 24, 2012 at 2:38 am

MOAR FUCKING TENTACKLES.

C_R_Eature July 24, 2012 at 5:32 am
Guppy July 23, 2012 at 9:43 pm

If a responsible individual had been carrying a weapon, maybe, maybe they could have prevented some of those deaths

And if we made any sort of effort to keep weapons out of the hands of irresponsible individuals, maybe, maybe they could have prevented all of those deaths.

But hey, you gotta break a few eggs for Jesus' Own Amendment, right?

Naked_Bunny July 23, 2012 at 9:45 pm

Newcombe did not specify whether he actually meant Hell, or possibly the GOP National Convention in Tampa, Florida.

Which, by the way, will not be allowing people to carry weapons inside.

Barrelhse July 23, 2012 at 11:12 pm

No weapons? Chickenshits.

Biel_ze_Bubba July 23, 2012 at 11:23 pm

Not to worry … Gov. Voldemort has declared a free-fire zone outside the convention center.

You can't make this shit up: "The city of Tampa has outlawed sticks, poles and water guns during the convention via a temporary ordinance, but does not have the power to regulate real guns."

Consider the rabid nutbags who'll be raving in the streets, and ask yourself what could possibly go wrong.

MissNancyPriss July 24, 2012 at 12:52 am

What? Since when? Shucks.

MittBorg July 24, 2012 at 1:41 am

I thought they didn't have a choice about that with all them "Stand Your Whatever" laws.

Guppy July 23, 2012 at 9:45 pm

And if you want prayer in public schools, put enough money into the education budget to build Matthean closets for every student.

Biel_ze_Bubba July 23, 2012 at 11:29 pm

From the Excellent Bumper Sticker Department:
"Don't pray in my school, and I won't think in your church."

HarryButtle July 23, 2012 at 9:51 pm

"Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to shoot"

Sorry, Dok, I'm stealing that.

savethispatient July 23, 2012 at 9:53 pm

I was discussing this the other day with a guy who said that to get round the Clinton-era ban for over-sized magazines, the gun sellers would just sell the same 100-round magazine but with a pin in them that stopped you filling it up past 20 or whatever the max was. So all someone needed to do to increase the capacity was to bend the pin out of the way. Anyone care to comment / know any better?

chascates July 23, 2012 at 10:20 pm

I don't think that would pass muster. When the original ban became law only 10-round clips were legal. However, pre-ban clips were still on the market since they were manufactured before the ban took effect and there was a very lucrative used market. Gun shows were overrun by people wanting the forbidden fruit. The Chinese military (who own the Chinese arms makers) already had shiploads of AKs and SKSs en route to America so they were grandfathered as well.
The gun magazines are full of ads for large capacity mags and they've been selling like hot cakes ever since Obama was elected. As horrible as this incident was it will mainly serve to increase sales of guns, ammo, and things like clips.
Imagine a horrible fire that killed a lot of people but instead of most people buying fire extinguishers they buy cans of gasoline and oily rags instead.

glasspusher July 23, 2012 at 10:29 pm

wow. Interesting. Any studies done of increased craziness/gun violence since Obama has been in and the crazies have been stocking up because of perceived treats to their fondle objects?

chascates July 23, 2012 at 10:38 pm

I don't know of any studies but the firearm publications always have editorials about the dangers just around the corner as well as letters to the editor by people who are stocking up in case the well runs dry. Even such middle-of-the-road magazines on hunting and fishing are fear mongering. This is a pretty good series that just started on Salon: http://www.salon.com/2012/07/23/nra_a_lobby_for_c

Also too: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/11/conce

glasspusher July 23, 2012 at 11:00 pm

Wow. Thanks for the link. Fuck me gently with a chain saw!¡Que he ganado, señor! ¡Tierra verde será mia, aun en muerte!

anniegetyerfun July 24, 2012 at 1:23 am

Or flame throwers.

Radiotherapy July 23, 2012 at 9:55 pm

Sure Huck Fuck. Bring god back into the schools. But which one? Or all of 'em Katie? Under the Constitution all would be equal. So Allah, Zeus, Clapton, Muscular Jeebus, Hippie Jesus, Satan, Buddha, etc. would keep tragedies like this from happening.

bobbert July 24, 2012 at 4:09 am

Nah, Clapton hasn't been god since what, 76 easy?

BaldarTFlagass July 24, 2012 at 8:30 am

I think he kicked his heroin habit in 1974.

Thurman Munster IV July 23, 2012 at 10:03 pm

I hope Engel won, 'cause that asshole Dick Vitale sucks, babee

fatbob54 July 23, 2012 at 10:06 pm

is it wrong to hope these people will vacation in Texas, where they like to execute the developmentally challenged? (I'd have used the "R" word but I'm not sure where the boss is on that one)

finallyhappy July 24, 2012 at 8:05 am

Don't use the R-word. I really hate that- having a son who is intellectually gifted but developmentally disabled(hard to understand but not for us). Autism spectrum teens and adults are sometimes the targets of mean cops(not usually to the level of execution) but beatings/arrests merely because the person can't comply fast enough with an order for ID or understand why they can't sit and wait for the library to open(a case in VA.)

deanbooth July 23, 2012 at 10:11 pm

Ask not for whom the bell tolls.

tessiee July 24, 2012 at 1:55 am

Ask not for whom the bone bones, it bones for thee. — Bender B. Rodriguez

BaldarTFlagass July 24, 2012 at 8:31 am

Ask not at whom the dog barks; he barks at thee. (This is on my parents' welcome mat).

upthruster July 23, 2012 at 10:12 pm

"Huckabee concluded, “We don’t have a crime problem or a gun problem – or even a violence problem. What we have is a sin problem."

…with that in mind, let's all go down and get a nice big fat gluttonous chicken sandwich from Chick Fil'A on August 1.

anniegetyerfun July 24, 2012 at 1:13 am

Weird, I'm pretty sure that a violence problem is exactly what we have here.

va_real July 24, 2012 at 1:52 am

And a gun problem.

mosjef July 23, 2012 at 10:13 pm

Message to Michael: Shut the Huck Up.

coolhandnuke July 23, 2012 at 10:15 pm

The most glaring First Amendment abstract lost on these architects of absolutes is not freedom of religion but freedom from religion.
The same principle applies to the Second Amendment with the right to weapons versus an individuals' reasonable right to protection or freedom from those weapons/bullets.

Billmatic July 23, 2012 at 10:16 pm

Only women should own guns.

chascates July 23, 2012 at 10:22 pm

Careful! Sarah Palin can shoot from an airplane.

anniegetyerfun July 24, 2012 at 1:15 am

I can testify that I would be the last person you would want handling a weapon. Just driving home from the gym, I was able to identify at least three people who deserved to have their tires shot out, and if I owned a weapon, I'm not certain that I would be able to restrain myself.

The fact that my avatar is a pink gun is more or less unrelated to how I actually feel about guns. Just driving home the pun in my user name (most likely unnecessarily).

bobbert July 24, 2012 at 2:53 am

Wait now, "Only women should own guns" is a pretty reasonable idea to me (a non-woman). However, this has to be conjoined with the absolute "Nobody should have a gun in their fucking vehicle. EVER. FUCKING EVER.".

Cause if I didn't believe that, there would be dozens more people buying tires over the last few years, and I'd be doing 10 to 20.

MittBorg July 24, 2012 at 3:47 am

I always tell my friends as I'm barrelling down the freeway with them screaming, "There's a REASON they don't let people like me carry guns!" For some reason, they're never as appreciative as you think they ought to be.

Billmatic July 24, 2012 at 10:30 am

I'm actually amazed that there aren't more shootings during traffic in Texas.

BaldarTFlagass July 24, 2012 at 8:40 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7F5AdHMhxQ

Esther be the one that shoots a machine gun
Whether you like it or not
Midnight or daylight, stay out of her sight
'Cause I heard she's one heck of a shot

Esther be the one, she's the only one
She'll get you with her gun
When the wolf starts howlin' at the moon

Chet Kincaid July 24, 2012 at 10:53 am

That gave me a nice laugh in the middle of such depressing topics, thanks!

docterry6973 July 23, 2012 at 10:19 pm

They may be on to something here. As I have moved towards atheism I have noticed that my own rate of violent crime has gone way up.

glasspusher July 23, 2012 at 10:31 pm

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Religion is not a guarantee of morality, and a lack of religion is no guarantee of amorality. These days, I see plenty to the contrary on both counts.

Chow Yun Flat July 23, 2012 at 10:40 pm

Ron Johnson has an answer for everything and to save time and energy it is always the same answer.

NellCote71 July 23, 2012 at 10:42 pm

To follow Sen. Johnson's logic, and I am not saying I do, we can't go back to options like the Brady bill because those weapons with 100-round clips already exist. So, explain to me why revoking all options for abortion would eliminate all abortions.

MittBorg July 23, 2012 at 10:58 pm

Excellent question. For which, incidentally, I have no good answer.

bobbert July 24, 2012 at 2:54 am

Mmm, Z, that's because there is no good answer.

MittBorg July 24, 2012 at 3:45 am

True.

Biel_ze_Bubba July 23, 2012 at 11:35 pm

There you go again, bringing Logic to a Stupid fight. You oughtta know by now, it's no contest.

Uniprober July 23, 2012 at 10:47 pm

Their God was there. He didn't seem to mind.

fuflans July 23, 2012 at 10:48 pm

how did james holmes get hold of something to dye his hair orange? he's been in custody since sat (fri?) morning. why did CO corrections allow him to go all joker?

chascates July 23, 2012 at 10:57 pm

He apparently was oranged-haired at the time of his arrest. The video of him today showed him to appear pretty doped up on something or simply bonkers.

anniegetyerfun July 24, 2012 at 1:18 am

His bulging wide-eyed stare just makes me want to smack him all the harder. Are authorities allowed to dope up suspects like that? I just assumed that it was a part of his schtick.

bobbert July 24, 2012 at 2:55 am

Can we just line up and kick him in the nuts? I'd pay for a flight to do that.

anniegetyerfun July 24, 2012 at 9:24 am

I think that's a fairly reasonable suggestion. I don't know why authorities in Colorado aren't returning my calls.

MittBorg July 24, 2012 at 3:44 am

Yes. If you're too crazy to participate in your own defense, they can't kill you. So they dope you up so you can get sentenced to death and shit.

MittBorg July 23, 2012 at 10:58 pm

According to news reports, he did the dyeing before the dying, if you know what I mean.

Biel_ze_Bubba July 23, 2012 at 11:33 pm

Sounds more Bozo than Joker.
Just sayin.

tessiee July 24, 2012 at 1:57 am

It's actually the RIddler if it's anybody. The Joker has had *green* hair in every picture or movie I've ever seen.

MittBorg July 24, 2012 at 3:45 am

You get serious major nerd points for that, baby.

chascates July 23, 2012 at 10:56 pm

I'm not sure that calls for better gun control are canceled out by cries of loss of favor of the Invisible Space Giant but:
Bryan Fischer: 'We've Tried It the Liberals' Way for Sixty Years Now and What Do We Got? We Have Massacres in Aurora' http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/fischer-wev

User-of-Scowls July 23, 2012 at 11:19 pm

So I guess Reagan never happened?

Doktor Zoom July 23, 2012 at 11:54 pm

All of the good that (*sniff!*) Saint Reagan could do was as nothing compared to the overwhelming satanic power of the Liberals who continue to enslave our nation. Only a return to Godly child-whipping will save us. If your six-month old gets out of line, spanking is the only answer.

tessiee July 24, 2012 at 2:00 am

Oh, crap, now you've gone and reminded me of that atrocious "book", to Train up a Child or whatever it's called. I'd rather read Mein Kampf.

bobbert July 24, 2012 at 2:57 am

Without clicking the linkie, I'd be happy to shoot Bryan Fischer to improve his statistics.

gogogodzilla July 23, 2012 at 11:14 pm

Abington School District v. Curly was much funnier than Abington School District v. Schempp .

Doktor Zoom July 23, 2012 at 11:26 pm

That's the case where Moe was overturned on a peel.

Biel_ze_Bubba July 23, 2012 at 11:20 pm

Gahh. This fucker made me look it up: Oikos Univerisity.

Nice Bibble School. Shot up by a student. There's your Jeebus-teaching at work, preventing gun violence. Now shut the Huck up.

AbandonHope July 23, 2012 at 11:22 pm

I thought Oikos was a brand of Greek yogurt, not a Christian madrassa masquerading as a "university".

ttommyunger July 23, 2012 at 11:36 pm

Why thank you. Thank you very much. It isn't everybody that can shock the Wonkette.

Designer_Rants July 24, 2012 at 1:02 am

I was going to read all of this, but, rage. It's almost bedtime.

Mojopo July 24, 2012 at 1:21 am

I know. I'm going to lay there and think about how much I hate this.

I've read every kind of ignorant comment you can imagine. The post-massacre quarterbacks are their coulda-shoulda-wouldas. The faith-based salesmen pushing complete submission to God and the NRA. The Blamers, who think the victims became victims because they chose to see a movie unarmed. And now them. I wonder how many people they turn away from God, because they're all so ignorant and hateful.

Mojopo July 24, 2012 at 1:03 am

It is amazing to me that a teenager from Colorado had the presence of mind to save her friend's life by applying pressure to a gaping neck wound, but that mature, educated, elected officials have as much sense about saving human lives as a pile of fresh dog shit. They act as if an ounce of prevention is beyond our reach!

tessiee July 24, 2012 at 1:23 am

Mike Huckabee AGAIN?? What is this, his day off or something?

bobbert July 24, 2012 at 4:14 am

I think he's warming up to be irrelevant at the RNC.

pinkocommi July 24, 2012 at 1:53 am

Funny that Huckster ignores the fact that much of the violence in the world is done in the name of god. Some even say god told them to do it. Like W. for example and the Iraq War. Religiosity is almost a prerequisite for mass murderers.

bobbert July 24, 2012 at 4:15 am

Oh, please. God didn't tell W to fuck up Iraq. That was a simple daddy issue.

anniegetyerfun July 24, 2012 at 9:33 am

I'm not sure that W. can tell the difference. He definitely needs approval from both to feel manly.

Biel_ze_Bubba July 24, 2012 at 1:55 am

Borowitz, as usual, has a wry take on the Nutbag Riflemen Association.

M. Bouffant July 24, 2012 at 4:03 am

And since we ordered God out of our schools and communities, the military and public conversations, you know, we really shouldn’t act so surprised when all hell breaks loose.

Gawd must be one fucking wimp if he lets the U.S. Gummint shove Him around like that. Isn't America Gawd's own country? Stand up for your property rights, you big Cosmic Fairy!!

bflrtsplk July 24, 2012 at 4:04 am

There can`t possibly be any place worse than the GOP convention.

Terry July 24, 2012 at 7:48 am

I have this little daydream that when people like Pat Robertson, Huckabee, and the ministers mentioned above reach the Pearly Gates that St Peter reads a list of their own quotes back to them, while staring them in the eye. As Peter reaches the end of the list, a comically large handle appears next to him. He pulls it, a celestial trap door opens, and Robertson, Huckabee, and the others plummet downward into hellfire and brimstone.

A girl can dream, can't she?

finallyhappy July 24, 2012 at 8:08 am

wish I believed in Hell.

Terry July 24, 2012 at 8:13 am

You don't have to believe in everything that pops up in your daydreams. Imagine how different the fantasy life of teenage boys would be if they were restricted to daydreaming about practical or likely things.

BaldarTFlagass July 24, 2012 at 8:01 am

"since we ordered God out of our schools and communities, the military and public conversations,"

Oh, now God takes orders from us? What a pussy.

Estproph July 24, 2012 at 9:16 am

I can't muster any snark for these jagovs. They're despicable people that foul the country by existing.

BaldarTFlagass July 24, 2012 at 9:44 am

OT but I see this morning that Sally Ride died, and came out of the closet in her obituary. Gay astronauts? Them homophobes are going to go into orbit on this.

thatsitfortheother1 July 24, 2012 at 10:03 am

Thus ending speculation on if she did it in space.

thatsitfortheother1 July 24, 2012 at 10:24 am

And BTW, way too young to die. Probably the healthiest chick on the planet for lotsa years. RIP.

DahBoner July 24, 2012 at 10:56 am

Just goes to show you what you did 20 years ago doesn't matter today.

Cancer is caused by poor diet or exposure to chemicals.

MittBorg July 24, 2012 at 1:19 pm

Here's the tragedy of Sally Ride's coming out: her partner of 27 YEARS, Tam O'Shaughnessy, is not entitled to any of the Federal benefits accorded to spouses of deceased astronauts.

weejee July 24, 2012 at 10:00 am

OT²

Sayonara Ichiro

MLite July 24, 2012 at 10:14 am

It's so cute that they really think this is called "the internets"

DahBoner July 24, 2012 at 10:51 am

What I get from all of this is that you're doing Christians a favor by killing them, because they are SAVED and you're just helping them get to HEAVEN faster.

SO WHY DO THEY ACT ALL AFRAID AND MOAN AND CRY BEFORE YOU "DICK CHENEY" THEM???

ttommyunger July 24, 2012 at 11:30 am

Snark aside, we need to lay off the gun control talk until after the elections. Clinton made this mistake and it cost him dearly. Yammering on about this now only energizes the Right, drives up demand and profits for the arms and ammo industries and provides the impetus for fund raising for Rightard Politicians and the NRA. Chill, Stephanie Miller, Rachel Maddow, Sen. Feinstein, et. al. until Mid-November.

MittBorg July 24, 2012 at 1:04 pm

^^ THIS ^^ deserves MANY more upfists. All those people yowling about gun control now need to shut the fuck up and concentrate on the elections. And then, because Americans have the attention span of gnats, it needs to be a NATIONAL campaign like Dr. Dean organized.

alteredimages July 24, 2012 at 1:47 pm

Oh Huckabee you bloated pigfucking knuckledragging neonazi filth.

Seriously the guy is the moral equivalent of an Inquisition torturer with a side hobby of raping dead dogs.

Sigh.

glasspusher July 23, 2012 at 9:33 pm

I only saw the first two movies, long ago. Any of them worth watching? My pick for best superhero movie of the last 20 years (or possibly ever) is the first Iron Man. Second one, not so much.

Grief_Lessons July 23, 2012 at 9:42 pm

I've decided at the end of the day that comic book movies are just not as good as comic books. I can get enthusiastic for just about any comic book movie in the theatres, but when I see it a few years later on TV it's almost always an embarrassment. Comic books themselves remain equally good (or embarrassing) over decades…

glasspusher July 23, 2012 at 10:14 pm

Yeah. I wonder if it's because there was never an Iron Man to rival The Dark Knight (that I know of), but overall it seems Marvel has done a better job on the movies than DC. It's hard for a good book or graphic novel to do as well in the theatre. See also Jurassic Park.

Doktor Zoom July 23, 2012 at 10:18 pm

Ghost World.

(Hahaha, twelve people read it and another forty or so saw the movie!)

Grief_Lessons July 23, 2012 at 10:36 pm

Nine of the twelve read it after hearing about the movie.

If we're going outside superheroes then tell me this: has any film ever fallen further short of its source material than From Hell?

Doktor Zoom July 23, 2012 at 10:39 pm

Haven't seen the movie; I'm willing to take your word that it's awful.

My favorite bizarro adaptation is "Barb Wire," which is actually a ripoff of the plot of "Casablanca."

Doktor Zoom July 23, 2012 at 11:06 pm

OK, and then there was that ill-considered Saturday-Morning Watchmen series.

…and don't even get me STARTED on "Neil Gaiman's SANDMAN Babies"

tessiee July 24, 2012 at 1:19 am

"has any film ever fallen further short of its source material than From Hell?"

Horribly miscast. Johnny Depp is a decently good actor, but totally wrong for the part of the detective, which needed a Hugh Jackman or Robert Carlyle or Brendon Gleeson [sp?]. And Heather Graham as pitiful streetwalker Mary Kelly? Hell no.

BerkeleyBear July 24, 2012 at 2:11 am

Well, my personal highest level of disgust was with "There Will be Blood", which took Oil!, Upton Sinclair's personal and gripping look at the destructive influence of money and capital in Southern California (and how an honest man is all but doomed to be crushed by these forces) and turned it into a triumphant ode to the badass nature of hard core capitalists. And fucking won a bunch of Oscars for hollowing out that book and making a mockery of its fundamental truth.

MittBorg July 24, 2012 at 1:30 am

No kidding, fella. C'mon out, the weather's fine (for a change, and who knows how long that will last?).

What are you reading these days? Didn't you have a pile under the bed you said you wanted to get rid of?

va_real July 24, 2012 at 1:56 am

It would have to be really small velcro… er, what were we talking about again?

MittBorg July 24, 2012 at 2:19 am

Sperm, dear. Or as my classmate of 50 years ago used to say, "Sperms." She wouldn't sit next to me because "the sperms will crawl down your leg and then I'll get pregnant."

va_real July 24, 2012 at 2:36 am

I like to say spermatozoa. No real reason, i just like to say it…

Did you go to a Catholic school? I've heard that you can get preggers that way if you're a Catholic girl.

emmelemm July 24, 2012 at 2:49 am

And while I think Heather Graham is actually quite pretty, she really looked terrible as a brassy redhead.

MittBorg July 24, 2012 at 3:04 am

Yes. Judging from the number of her schoolmates who got pregnant, a lot of them must've been sitting next to boys.

thatsitfortheother1 July 24, 2012 at 5:45 am

Stealing this.

Guppy July 24, 2012 at 1:48 pm

Anyone taught the simple application of reason and facts has an infinitely more useful key to morality as well as everything else.

Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.
For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.
She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her.
Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour.
Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace.
She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.

It sounds like you haven't been able to come up with anything better for 2,000 years either.

Radiotherapy July 24, 2012 at 9:38 am

I've been busy since I got out of the mental hoosegow, and couldn't read too much in there, but I'm getting back into the groove. Aside from reading fun stuff like Dok recommends, I just started the Van Gogh biography from last year by Naifeh and Smith — my tastes are preety random and that is why I am intrigued by your list. BTW, you are more than welcome to rummage under my bed.

Radiotherapy July 24, 2012 at 9:44 am

I just started a Van Gogh biography by Niefah and Smith. I'm preety random about what I choose. That's why I like your list.
BTW you can rummage under my bed anytime — you know, for books.

Radiotherapy July 24, 2012 at 12:37 pm

Fucking InsaneDebate is eating my comments! Argh.
I was saying I am reading a Van Gogh biography from last year by Niefah and Smith. I also had a joke about rummaging under my bed. But they keep getting deleted.

MittBorg July 24, 2012 at 12:55 pm

I saw the comment in my inbox but yeah, it's not showing up here. How weird. That biography sounds fascinating. I'm having a reader's block, weirdly enough. I keep picking up one book, reading a few pages, and then putting it down for another.

On a *happier* note, if you've ever read Midnight's Children by Salman Rushdie, he just Tweeted this morning that the film from his book will be screened for the first time at the Toronto Film Festival. Makes me wish I was mobile enough to consider going to Toronto. Right now I'm sorta reading a book about Wilfred Burchett, written by his son and filled with photos of a happier time when Burchett lived in VietNam and socialized with the entire top echelon of the Lao Dong Party. In between, I'm reading about the various prisons of Angkar in Kampuchea (and it makes me want to kill myself daily); Mike Figgis on digital film-making; and P. Sitney Adams' definitive work on experimental film of the US.

I'm so glad you're back with us, Radio, all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed again. (Hugs Radio)

Guppy July 24, 2012 at 1:38 pm

As opposed to the people who learn ancient languages just to translate factual, non-fiction accounts by the likes of Homer and Virgil?

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