Look at the fun video we made! We have to admit, this war in Libya, at the moment, doesn’t seem so bad. The rebels are being protected, Gaddafi may eventually fall, and Libya could one day wind up a liberal democracy, a free country that emits shining Hope Rays to the rest of the dank, unfreedomed region. But if he isn’t deposed in the coming days, will Obama invade? Even if Gaddafi does fall, there are signs American ground troops could be headed into Libya. Is that why it was so easy to make this video? We’re not even that good at making these little videos. Why does Obama sound so much like Bush announcing the start of the Iraq War?
Make no mistake: last’s night’s address was a war speech. And, like in Iraq, the U.S. is going to be involved in Libya for a long time to come.
President Obama boasted about the rapidity with which the U.S. and its allies got involved in Libya. Some defense wonks, like Andrew Exum of the Center for a New American Security, criticized Obama’s team for not exhibiting diligent planning before Operation Odyssey Dawn began. Obama didn’t signal an endgame in his Monday speech
Oh God. Here we go again? At least this guy didn’t lie about why we’re going to war, we guess. [Wired]
{ 154 comments }
Didn't lie yet. Yet.
But one IS more intelligent than the other WAS.
He may be honest, but honestly saying "I have no idea what I'm doing" isn't much more comforting.
You know who else was intelligent?
Albert Einstein?
I really don't think you guys are being fair here. Like, at all.
*waits to be berated*
I had a friend in high school whom we called Party Marty, because his parents were old and senile and had no idea that we were smoking weed in their house.
Unfair to compare it to Iraq? I'll grant you that, but there are fair comparisons to be made to Afghanistan, which is still a mess. "We just have to help the Northern Alliance and everything will fall into place!"
Honestly, at least half of why Afghanistan is still a mess is that the President who led us into that war started suffering a bad case of IWDD (Iraq War Deficit Disorder) nearly as soon as boots hit ground. If we had actually committed, rather than ignoring the war for five years to start another, dumber war, we might have actually made some progress.
Still, even the best intentions, *and* half-decent execution, can net us a Somalia, which is a somewhat more likely picture of failure on this one.
I'm cutting Barry some slack on this one. No way in hell Libya=Iraq, and it's not Afghanistan either. You want to tell me Libya is similar to US going into Bosnia or the Croatia-Serbia thing, I'll say, yeah, it looks a lot like that, only we didn't let the bad guys get so far ahead this time.
Afghanistan was a case of the Taliban saying neener-neener-neener, we're helping the Al Quaeda mess you guys up and we plan to continue doing so. So whaddaya gonna do?
Iraq was all about Bush measuring dicks with Saddam.
Damn, I hate to say it, but it always happens, not just to the U.S., but the "liberators" are always eventually seen as the oppressors. You just need one meathead ground soldier pulling some shit (as in the lovely photos we saw the other day), and there the whole thing goes. It can be done, but the risks are huge, and the U.S. is as wobbly as it can be nowadays. I know we don't have ground soldiers in there…yet, but the whole thing makes me queasy.
Squirmish, maybe?
no, i generally agree.
i mean what IS the point of having the world's most advanced military if – from time to time – you can't take out a pock-marked crazy ass dictator with a history of terrorism and terrorizing bulgarian nurses with trumped up aids charges?
Different President. Different country. Same bullshit.
"bullshit" was the new word I taught my daughter during the president's address.
But if our hope is misplaced, are we gonna vote him out of office, considering the alternative? Damn this conundrum.
It's time for a political realignment. Sanity vs. insanity is no way to set up a two-party system. We need to just convince the truly liberal democrats to defect en masse, voters as well as the actually awesome politicians. Feingold 2012?
Meh. That's the same way lots of people used to talk about Nader, or before him, Jesse Jackson. I'm old, I voted enthusiastically for John Anderson in 1980. If I've learned anything from presidential politics since then it's this: Your only practical choice is the least bad of the two guys who can actually win. And sometimes, you don't even have that choice.
(*cough*Mondale'84*cough*)
If we really wanted to destroy Libya, we'd airdrop Scott Walker and Rick Snyder over there and put them in charge of their gummint.
New boss, meet old boss. Only now with more gay soldiers!
Following an earlier thread, maybe Barry should look at Barney Frank to be Gates' replacement at Defense? *Just say so*
So we should rename it Operation Careless Whisper immediately.
Goddammit! I should know better than to read wonkette right before bed. Now I have that fucking song stuck in my head and I just know I'm going to have some horrible nightmare about george michael. Thanks.
FABULOUS!
And, without boots on the ground.
Can we find Gahdaffy or Mubarak birth certificates signed by Dr. B.H.O. Ganja from the Jamaica Hospital in Queens?
I'm sure the civilians will feel real liberated as they bleed to death.
Their veins feel liberated.
Because Gaddhafi's forces' have shot them to swiss cheese, right?
No, see, Saddam actually hid the WMDs in Tripoli, so we have to invade. It's so obvious! Bolton and Powell will totally back me up on this one.
I blame Wisconsin and West Africa.
Don't blame me, I voted for Cthulu.
Lizard People?
No, the famous fish people that live off the coast of New England and occasionally breed with the locals, which explains their funny accent.
Yes Cthulhu Fhtagn! Yes Cthulhu Fhtagn!
You'll wish they were lizard people.
Why vote for the LESSER evil?
Well, at least he didn't do a Reagan and say "we begin bombing in 5 minutes."
Well, he said we began bombing a week ago.
As Iraq demonstrates, all you need to win a war in the Middle East is lots of planning!
Umm, even decades of planning wouldn't stop us from screwing this up, or the rest of the world from hating us (either for getting involved, or for not getting involved). At least with Barry's "strategy" we might stop a few tens of thousands of people from getting massacred first . . . or not.
"A country without a memory is a country of madmen." –George Santayana
Welcome to the asylum, bitches.
Learning from history is for sochialists!
And yet:
"We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom that is in it – and stop there; lest we be like the cat that sits down on a hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid again – and that is well; but also she will never sit down on a cold one anymore." (Marky Mark Twain)
The problem with our current political system is that I have to vote for the same people as you do, when it's clear that we only agree some of the time.
You know, when I got sold the Hope and Change thing I wasn't Hoping to keep warring and I wasn't seeking a Change of country to blow the shit out of….oh well, I guess I'll just go home and make myself squirmish with some nice Santorum.
It's ok to have hope and want Change, but you live in the the world you have, not the world you wish you had.
Wait, you mean that two presidents addressing the nation about military action might use superficially similar words and phrases? Color me fucking shocked.
Actually, its the fact the second one is a fucking Nobel Peace Prize winner who sung us all a pretty song that he wasn't going to do the same shit as the first one. Shocking, indeed.
There is a slight difference between adverting the slaughter of civilians, and bombing the shit out of all of a country because they once talked shit about your Dad.
For realz. Let's not forget it was Bush's fucking Dad who allowed Saddam (WHAT A BAD BAD MAN) to strafe Kurdish refugees from helicopters, like Sarah on a wolf hunt. It's the President's job to pretend that even though the shitstorm is being unleashed, things are cool and operating normally. Difference between Bush and Obama is that Obama is probably bothered by the truth, at least a little bit.
Yeah. You could say "Grrrr! Barry is just like Bush!" and if you were talking about Bush I, you wouldn't be too far off the mark. If you were talking about Bush II, you'd be retarded.
You could more accurately say "Barry is just like Clinton! (Minus the illicit blowjobs.)"
See my post from yesterday. In accepting his Nobel Peace Prize, he acknowledged the necessity of the use of force in exactly this kind of situation. Rachel Maddow played that part of both speeches side-by-side and they were virtually identical. Probly can find it on Rachel's website.
Noted. Fisted.
Just like Obama did to Bush did to Clinton did to Bush did to Reagan, did to et al., I inadvertently echoed your statement down thread.
The humanitarian fisting of your comment will commence in five minutes.
My haste made my comment too narrow…what I meant was simple:
Conservatives follow their President regardless
Liberals question their President regardless
President Obama could of treated us as adults, not unlike he did as a candidate regarding race, and just admit the stability of the price of oil is the Elephant in the room in Libya and having a US Navy base in Bahrain keeps us in check from standing up to Saudi
RoyaltyDictators (oil-igarchy?) showing muscle…and left us with platitudes of an America from Truman's time…movie or President, take your pick.Alberta gives us most of our imported oil and with the recent fall of Harper, the right wing will be screaming for us to start invading Ottawa next
Fukc yeah! I want to occupy a great North American pâtisserie. Ottawa, Q-beck, someplace like that.
Bullshit. The best thing for oil prices would have been to let Q-Daff brutally crush the rebellion and make everything go back to normal. No, this was about a Libyan crackdown sending Libyan's running for the border and swamping the nascent and emerging democracies of Tuniisia and Egypt on either side of it.
Let's assume that's true. Is the best way to deal with Libyan refugees to bomb the crap out of the country they're running from? Is that even a good way to deal with that problem?
I mean, maybe it is, but it seems like dealing with a refguee crisis is something we could do without killing a bunch of people ourselves.
Let's have a warm round of applause for George III.
So, since we are at war again, I assume Libya must have tried to kill Obama's father or something? Or did Obama's Father launch a fairly successful war against Gaddafi, but didn't depose him, and Obama is just trying to prove that he is better than his dad?
I think Gaddafi tried to steal his secret stash of smokes.
Or simply tried to steal his stash?
God all mighty! How many of those Muslim Countries do we have to bomb before they get it through their thick fucking skulls that we are there to help them!?
The bombings will continue until morale increases and the thankless natives become thankful and convert their government to one with three branches: Legislative, Executive, and Judicial, and adopt Ayn Rand as their patron saint. There! That ought to do it!
Exactly, that always worked so well over the past 70 years, North Korea, Viet Nam, Cambodia, Panama, Lebanon, Somalia, Bosnia, Afghanistan, Iraq and whatever the hell else that I'm forgetting, are all now staunch Amerikan allies right?
War does not work. The last 70 years of history proves that and will prove it again in Libya. If this country were under attack that would be another matter, but there is not even a pretense of that in this, is there?
What if the money pissed away on arms, planes, ships, communications, personnel and unexploded lands minds we left laying around had been spent on hospitals, highways, schools, bridges and employment? Might this country be a better and more secure place to live?
We have to learn, war sucks, costs money, does NO good and kills people. That's not good P.R. Could that be related to the anti-Americanism around the world?
Nope sorry, this war is stupid, Libyans must make there own way and determine their own fate as they will anyway. No long term good will come of this.
I thought this was an "Humanitarian Squirmish."
I'm pretty sure that the campaign pledge where Barry said "I will never, under any circumstances, use the US military against another nation" was something that only occurred in some people's imagination. Libya is not Iraq, and Obama is not Bush.
I can't imagine any Presidential candidate saying that, seeing as we've had military action in a foreign nation at some time during every administration since Hoover.
Oh, you de-pixifyed cutie, surely you're being ever so reticent as to our profligate dallying (with quite well-armed chappies in the finest US of A brand khaki) in various bits of our global international world planet; to wit, Haiti (occupied for a scant 1915-1934 interregnum); Nicaragua (occupied by our lovelies for just a smidge more from 1909-1933), et. cetera, & cetara, & mea maxima culpa).
Quite cricket of you, darling.
That was the section of the AP US History book I always skipped because I knew for a fact that 90% of our questions would be about Thomas Jefferson.
And isn't it interesting how many times we've occupied that tiny nation of Nicaragua? Why, were I a less optimistic reader, I would think we were an Empire or something. How perfectly silly.
Step back that timeline back a few administrations, say Manifest Destiny or the OHW (Original Humanitarian War) on the ♪ ♫ "shore's of Tripoli." ♪ ♫
Jerry Brown's Whitman-Schwartzenegger ad it ain't.
You know who else made speeches similar to Dubya's?
Meg Whitman?
The Speak & Spell?
Full of winning.
Siegfried Engelmann and Elaine C. Bruner?
That was 9/11
Doh!
Trig?
(Sorry, Trig. I know that was kind of harsh).
"Why does Obama sound so much like Bush announcing the start of the Iraq War?"
Because every president from Truman on has played this particular game of Mad Libs.
Look Bush said what you're supposed to say, whereas Obama is saying the only thing that can be said. Subtle difference, but a difference nevertheless. Just because Bush was a pod person who knew how to make maniacal lying and evil sound sensible and pragmatic, this doesn't mean that Barry's stealing a page from his book. And we can't send troops until we send in the A-10 Warthogs and other anti-tank technology. Hey how's that robot war technology coming along anyway?
This is good news for ED-209
You know who else gave a vague, bromide-filled address to a simplistic, easily-excitable citizenry announcing military action against a foreign government?
FDR?
Nearly every single fucking president that the United States of Awesome has ever fucking had, that's who.
Snooki?
Rufus T Firefly?
The Osmonds?
Cleopatra?
WIll you quit stepping on my dick? How'm I supposed to pick up my large Wonkette Commenter's checks with a straight face if you keep this shit up?
I can't help myself.
I don't meme to steal your thunder.
The funnier thing is that last time we went around you had more upfists for your admonishment than I did for the comment.
You two are literally a pitcher of gin and a fistful of bluebirds away from becoming the Taylor-Burton of our Wonkette, aren't you?
Tony "Poodles" Blair?
This Preznit?
“We took the liberty to make some inquiries concerning the Grounds of their pretensions to make war upon a Nation who had done them no Injury, and observed that we considered all mankind as our Friends who had done us no wrong, nor had given us any provocation. The Ambassador answered us that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman who should be slain in Battle was sure to go to Paradise."
Declan McManus?
In his case, it was a brilliant mistake.
I think some Wonketteers are confusing Bush's deliberate mischaracterizations of Iraq and Ghaddafi's serious desire to kill a boatload of people. If France and the UK, let alone the Arab League, are willing to actually join in on this after all the bullshit over the past decade, you know that real shit was going down.
Sadly, Libya may be good news for Ralph Nader…
Clearly, this proves Obama is morally weak.
"We don't want the smoking gun to be a pack of Kool 100s."
FLV: Miss your old icon…
As do I, but my dear lover, Rachel McAdams, needed a break. She'd been peed on enough.
I think Harley is a more than suitable substitute.
When you're a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. War is the only thing this country makes anymore, so we'll inevitably find places where they need some product. When we do, these speeches inevitably sound the same, explaining why it's all inevitable.
"The business of America is [war]." — Calvin Coolidge
"And assfucking." — Wonkette
"And punching-in-the-throat." – Caveman
We're also generating a metric fuckton of poor people, but they'll fit into the grand scheme of war, no problem.
If he shows up on a carrier with a Mission Accomplished banner we're all fucked.
Strategery.
Didn't lie… that we know of. A [redacted] version of Bush. I just didn't think it would happen to Hopey.
Goddammit!
We are fucked.
It is good to be fucked, yes?
In the new wormhole we live in our choices are allowing another Rwanda happen where Libya's dictator promised a massacre or risking being mired in civil war with our NATO allies ala Bosnia.
It's tough.
Dude. Obama cannot ever be compared to W. W is in a class of his own, occupied by his own willful incompetence and brazen hubris that flaunted blind magical thinking and disdain for truth or knowledge. Obama may do things that we disagree with but it can't be compared to the W – ever.
He's at the Red Rooster up on 125th about now, shall I run up the street and tell him that the Wonketteers are terribly disappointed in him?
Yes, please. Tell him there's a bitchincamaro in Astoria prepared to stop sticking up for him at family gatherings. Seriously, I voted for him and I reserve the right to lay rubber on his lawn every time he pisses me off.
Tony Orlando and Dawn!
What kind of emotional state are you in to give an entire speech with raised eyebrows a la Bushwhack. It's like he is confused, stupid and can't understand what he's reading/saying, lying, speaking under duress or all of the above.
Um … were you in a coma from 2001 to 2009?
Oh, downfister doesn't like YOU, Fukui. I'd been wondering if it was just my misreading the thread, but when 1 goes to 0 I figure someone is being naughty.
Downfister detests me, so I must be doing something right.
Kare wa baka desu ne.
2007 was the last time I was forced to watch a video of this shit-stain — 'Scuse me for being shocked anew.
I wonder the same thing about those calling Obama "Bush III."
If the Tea Party bogeyman is the only thing the Democratic Party has going for it, I'd say we're doomed either way.
Obama sells casual war better than Bush sells compassionate, worried war.
Ladies and Gentlemen please welcome President Palin. (Shoots self in head.) Still, I'm a bit disappointed in Hopey though.
Downfisting troll-scum is afoot.
Yeah it nailed me and I just deleted my previous comment. They're stupid fuckin' asswipes boot lickin' cocksuckers anyway.
Okay, we GET it, Obama is exactly like Bush in every possible way, there is no difference between them, and also he's Morally Weak, and we should all vote Green/for whoever ends up primary-challenging Obama in 2012, because it's not like it would end up being a much, much, much shittier world when whoever the Republican nominee is wins that election.
You can stop posting under Jack's login now, Ken.
Next time, I'm voting for Crystal Pepsi.
The one thing we liberals are really united on is that a lot of other liberals are wrong.
Still, I hope this is only a squirmish.
O/T slightly, but make sure you tune in to PBS' "Frontline" tonight. Bradley Manning will go under the microscope, as will all viewers once the NSA has collated all of the data.
On second thought, Bradley Manning and WikiLeaks are almost always "ON TOPIC" whenever world matters are discussed. Funny about that.
Crap–looks like PBS has 3 different Frontline programs in rotation, and the one that my local station's showing is about Big Money and the NCAA. At least I can watch the Manning story at http://www.pbs.org/frontline
For me this tears in multiple directions:
Toxic Bush hangover
As soon as Barry did something like this it was going to be shit-hitting-the-fan time with supporters. An absolute lose-lose largely because of the Bush hangover (I would argue).
Crisis is real
Someone had to do something. The US getting involved all over again sucks, but it was inevitable because of how the rest of the world sees the US. Note that internal US politics and movements are largely unknown outside the US. See the address Gillard gave to congress recently.
The truth is never neat
The truth of a complex situation is messy. Any simple reading – Barry is great let's love him | Barry is a cunt he's out of here – is the equivalent of sticking one's head in the sand. It's going to hurt whichever way you cut it.
You're right on all counts, but you forgot to push the TruckNutz and/or buttsecks button.
I was too busy masturbating.
Obama's selling the Libya intervention better than he sold the health care reform bill…
Or is it just harder for the Rethugs to confuse the public on this issue, because Americans are too stupid to understand more than two sides of anything?
i for one am pleased to welcome our lebanese fighting partners.
Oooh, lesbian fisting partners?
Almost a century after the War to End All Wars, we're still starting new wars on the theory that war is necessary to achieve peace.
I, for one, cannot wait for the Roy Moore Administration.
Come on, folks. Bush =/= Obama.
Thank-you, from the bottom of my heart.
Obama may be making a big mistake–I think he is but I hope that he isn't. But once you get past homo sapiens, male and U.S. President the comparison with Bush collapses.
As President Bush showed he was profoundly stupid, lacking in character and with sense of morality. He put his faith in men who had never told the truth. Everything he did as president pushed the U.S. closer to the abyss.
Obama is smart, has a finely tuned (perhaps too finely) ethical outlook and (generally) takes advice from people who are qualified to give it.
Hmmm…..I think I noticed one big difference……bush sounded like a retard who was fed his lines like he was a poorly programmed robot who really really needed a drink, dad's approval, and to not be on mom's shelf in a mason jar. also…..one billion dollars? fucking chump change.
And this will all, undoubtedly, reduce the federal deficit to absolute zero as soon as Tripoli is liberated and gives us all their oil. Also.
"Some defense wonks, like Andrew Exum of the Center for a New American Security, criticized Obama’s team for not exhibiting diligent planning before Operation Odyssey Dawn began. "
Implying they don't have a file cabinets full of attack plans for every country on earth. Sure.
The big difference is Bush looks tormented, scared, like he sees trouble ahead. Obama looks calm, cool, and collected like it is no big deal. SCARY to ME!!!!
That retarded guy said,"…bare the dooty…"
I didn't hear Obama say,"Heh, heh, heh." once.
I just got around to watching this thing and knowing the context in which both these speeches were delivered makes this comparison a giant fucking stretch for me.
Did anybody click on the next video? It was about Bush and Barack fulfilling Bible prophesy. Using stick people animation the next video shows that the "evil one" is sitting on the throne (the toilet?).
We can vote in a new president but we still get the same old foreign policy/defense establishment. Maybe that's the "evil one" prophesized in Tim LeHaye books.
This is totally like Bush trumping up a case against a latent Saddam – who had been contained and sitting quietly for years – because Saddam tried to do bad things to his daddy way back when, and because Saddam's Iraq didn't offer the correct condolences after 9/11 and putting over 100,000 boots and a big-ass military base on the ground. It's so totally like that.
Not in anyone's fuckin' dreams is Obama like Bush as far as his view of war is concerned. Obama is shitty for a lot of reasons. This ain't one of them.
Well, I guess we gotta keep whuppin' misbehavin' dictators 'cause of our moral imperative and all.
"a free country that emits shining
Hope Rayssweet light crude"FTFY.
Since you asped, I was thinking more along the lines of The Days of Wine and Roses with jack lemmon and Lee Remick.
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