cheech and wrong

David Frum Asks Important Question: ‘Did Pot Trigger Giffords Shooting?’

There's another way! You idealogues have no good ideas. NO LABELS!There is a fierce competition at foot to figure out who can blame the shooting in Arizona on the dumbest thing. Is it Sarah Palin’s fault because she put up a map with gun sights on it this one time, because she is a terrible person who hates for people to understand/get along with each other? That’s a pretty good one. But David Frum does one better: “After horrific shootings, we hear calls for stricter regulation of guns. The Tucson shooting should remind us why we regulate marijuana.” Yes, why do we “regulate” marijuana? Because we are as insane as this shooter we call insane? Nope. Because lazy potheads do nothing but lounge around giggling and GOING ON SHOOTING SPREES.

Jared Lee Loughner, the man held as the Tucson shooter, has been described by those who know as a “pot smoking loner.”

He had two encounters with the law, one for possession of drug paraphanalia.

We are also learning that Loughner exhibited signs of severe mental illness, very likely schizophrenia.

The connection between marijuana and schizophrenia is both controversial and complicated. The raw association is strong:

Schizophrenics are twice as likely to smoke marijuana as non-schizophrenics.

People who smoke marijuana are twice as likely to develop schizophrenia as those who do not smoke.

Hooray! The good Doctor Frum has given us a diagnosis. Because schizophrenics like pot, it was the pot that murdered all those people! It is high time we keep people found with pot and such in prison for much longer. If we keep them in prison, they might not become violent! If there’s one thing this country needs, it’s stricter pot laws.

You know what, after we pass those laws, we should let that kid go free. He won’t have that pot to make him crazy and murderous any more. Not smoking pot relaxes you and takes the edge off.

But otherwise, yes, let’s go around to America’s basements and break up these evil plots to shoot a bunch of people. (If by “shoot” you mean “hug,” and by “people,” you mean “funny animals on teevee.”) We should probably go in with guns blazing, because who knows what kind of weapons caches these potheads keep. [Frum Forum]

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  1. BaldarTFlagass

    Well, that quarter-oh-zee of Blueberry Bubblegum Armageddon I scored last week absolutely killed.

    1. Negropolis

      I love the names of the strains of weed. They are so creative; It's almost as if they were thought up by potheads, or something…

    1. Lascauxcaveman

      Actually, like he usually is when he's not stoned, Frum is half-right here.

      People who are already subject to paranoid schizophrenia can make it much, much worse by smoking too much of the mind-blowingly strong weed that's the standard these days. Something about the balance of THC vs CBD in the weed, the CBD being the stuff that takes the edge off and makes one mellow. Pretty interesting reading on the subject if you want to google it. Of course there's no conclusive proof either way, but "recent studies show…"

    2. Negropolis

      I don't know, but whatever it is, he needs to get an eye wrangler when he's smoking it, because one of them keeps trying to get away, bless it's heart.

  2. SudsMcKenzie

    Whatever dude, you made your bed, and you shat in it.

    now excuse me while I Take this bong hit…

  3. EdFlintstone

    Here I was starting to think of Frum as semi-sane, then he goes and reminds us that he's a republican.

  4. ManchuCandidate

    Just when you think David Frum might be able to put together more than 100 working neurons, he turns around and writes this piece of shit.

    As someone who has had endured the Frumlet when he was living in Canada City, pot is one of his bugaboos like sex (promiscuity) and disco muzik. BTW, did you know Frumlet was a teenager in the 70s? I'm not shocked either.

    Note to Frumlet…. I was uncool and unlayable in high school, too, but it didn't make me an asshole.

    1. Sue4466

      "Note to Frumlet…. I was uncool and unlayable in high school, too, but it didn't make me an asshole."

      But maybe you grew out of it?

    1. LionelHutzEsq

      Or you remember the gun, but find that you have stuffed it full of jelly beans instead of bullets.

      The Pothead revolution would be here if it were not for these mistakes.

    2. Dashboard_Jesus

      "now where DID I put that semi-automatic weapon with 33-round clip? damn I was gonna do some crazy killin' and shit and now all I can think about is findin' me some White Castles!"

      yeah, the pot made him do it…if ONLY we could get these right wing nuts to smoke some more weed the cuntry would be MUCH safer…

  5. PublicLuxury

    Maybe he was going into the supermarket to get a Pringles fix and found the door blocked. Realizing that the Pringles were just inside the door he became frustrated and began shooting at people indiscriminately to clear his way to the snack aisle.

  6. mrblifil

    Where the world sees sensless existential nihilism and hangs it's head in irredeemable shame and self-loathing, David Frum sees "opportunity…"

  7. MittsHairHelmet

    The only time I feel violent when I'm roasted is when there's no Jimmy Dean Chocolate-Chip-Pancake-Wrapped-Sausage-on-a-Stick left in my mini-fridge freezer.

  8. edgydrifter

    I'm sure the correlation has nothing to do with undiagnosed schizophrenics self-medicating any way they can, doing whatever it takes to take the edge off and still the voices. And I'm sure that self-medication has nothing to do with the lack of mental-health access for those who need it most in our (best of all possible) medical delivery systems. Noooo, couldnt be that.

    Anybody want to bet this fuckhead shooter enjoyed a beer now and then? Somebody get Carrie Nation on the phone–we need to outlaw that shit pronto.

    1. LionelHutzEsq

      So, what you are suggesting is that if we had some sort of nationalized health care system, where everyone could seek out treatment, this problem would go away whether or not we all got stoned?

      I just don't see how such reasoning hold up in the the shadow of Mr. Frum's awesome argument.

    2. Sparky_McGruff

      Couldn't be self medication at all. A huge percentage smoke tabacky, to try to "calm the jitters". Lots of them drink themselves stupid, or move on to the harder stuff (e.g. heroin) to try to shut the voices up and drown out the constant fear that their miswired prefrontal cortex and amygdala feeds into their heads.

      On the other hand, I drink myself stupid trying to forget that David Frum earns more in a week being an idiot than I ever will.

  9. slithytoves

    Hmm, his former doper friend Tierney had this to say in the Mother Jones interview:

    After Loughner apparently gave up drugs and booze, "his theories got worse," Tierney says. "After he quit, he was just off the wall."

    Yeah, that really does sound more probable…

    1. LionelHutzEsq

      Well, if you lived in Arizona and had no booze or drugs, what is to keep you from going on a shooting spree?

  10. sati_demise

    What Frumm leaves out is this guy drank a bottle of tequilla and passed out in class and had to be hospitalized. He was a heavy drinker. His fellow college students considered that tequilla episode damaged his brain even more.

  11. DemmeFatale

    And just when I was considering giving Frum back his "human being" status…

    It is my understanding that many with mental illnesses "self-medicate" with pot, trying to calm down their (usually unattended) symptoms. Seems logical that he would try.

  12. Sophist FCD

    Of course, people with schizophrenia are no more likely to be violent than the average person, so Frum has at least two degrees of separation from an actual point. Which is better than average for him, actually.

    1. lulzmonger

      Yeah, I had a friend die from weed – & it was some nasty shit too … killed him instantly. His ship came in & a 150 kilo bale fell on him from twenty feet up during unloading.

      (shamelessly stolen from Tommy Chong)

  13. freakishlywrong

    It's Mary Jane's fault? Bullshit. I blame right wing hate speech, but keep em' coming, assholes.

  14. Terry

    Whenever I see a photo of Frum, I can't help but think that he was the kid in school who got jammed in lockers, had his lunch money stolen, never got a date, and stood around the side of the gym trying to steal glances at girls during dances.

    Perhaps all this malfunctions now are subconscious attempts to get even with all the people who used to call him a greasy little whim.

  15. Neoyorquino

    To repeat one of my previous posts, the only thing threatened by a pot smoker is a well-stocked refrigerator.

  16. harry_palmer

    By all means leave the schizos with unlimited access to guns, but without access to affordable and comprehensive mental health care. Cuz that's how an avenging God rolls.

    1. CrunchyKnee

      But, you know if he could reach it, he sure would spend less time typing stupid shit…oh wait, you meant a marijuana joint…ummm, never mind.

  17. PeaceWithHonor

    The relationship between marijuana and schizophrenia is complicated and controversial. Except when I explain it to support my own narrow political goals. In that case, it's simple as 9/11.

  18. SorosBot

    Guess what, Frum; according to the interview with his friend, Loughner quit smoking pot (along with alcohol) in 2008, and "After Loughner apparently gave up drugs and booze, "his theories got worse," Tierney says. "After he quit, he was just off the wall." And Loughner started to drift away from his group of friends about a year ago."

    So not only did pot not made this guy crazy, it appears quitting pot did so; your theory's not just wrong, but possibly the opposite of the truth.

    1. assistantatlas

      I'm sorry, but I believe Bill Kristol has the phrase "the opposite of the truth" trademarked. Frum's just an egomaniacal fuckface, and those are a dime a dozen among the right-wing commentariat.

  19. PublicLuxury

    Do you think that Frum's head looks like a penis making him a dick head? Maybe it's the pot talking?

  20. marinmaven

    Based on accounts from people I know the scariest thing that happens when you are stoned is that you binge eat whatever is put in front of you and then pass out only to find a pile of empty pizza boxes and bags of candy on the living room floor. Also you have what you think are profound thoughts intermingled with sporadic giggles. I also had a coworker when I worked at a deli back in the 1980s who didn't show up until closing because he was across the bay and too busy getting stoned and doing art. Living in the Haight and going to Dead concerts, you get to see what pot does to people. It doesn't motivate people to do more than veg out on a soft couch and take naps.

    Now it is very real that the mentally will self medicate with alcohol and drugs, but that is more of a call to improve mental health services of Americans.

  21. weejee

    A far, far bigger danger is the regular who has his own bar stool. Speaking of saloons, one of the barflies over at Slate had a bit this morning that provides interesting insight on all this crazy talk about crazies. Did you know you are 3 times more likely to be killed by a lightning strike than by some loon who is schitzo? No? Well give the Slate a peak.

    1. weejee

      No shit! He is an aFrunt to clear thinking. If weed displaced ethanol as America's drug of choice, it likely that there would be unimaginable and horrible Twinkie abuse (see JoshNorton below) and we would become an even fatter herd, but violence would likely plummet.

  22. Barbara_i

    The only thing pot triggers is the urge to open two little frosting packs to drizzle on your Toaster Strudel.

  23. undeterredbyreality

    You can have my pot when you pry it from my cold, dead fin… ahh, nevermind, here ya go–just don't bogart it.

  24. MistaEko

    If weed is outlawed, only outlaws will be smoking weed on their couch when paranoid and legally armed gun nuts fire into public places.

    1. Barbara_i

      Oh yeah, and then you can use lean turkey bacon and make a zero-carb, low fat Twinkie club. Twinkie, bacon, Twinkie…..

  25. LionelHutzEsq

    It is a proven fact that almost all revolutions and civil wars have started after someone got really baked and listen to The Dark Side of the Moon. Just try to refrain yourself from going out and shooting at people after doing that. It can't be done.

  26. imissopus

    It is high time we keep people found with pot and such in prison

    I see what you did there.

    Today we are all pot-smoking loners. But then, most every day we are all pot-smoking loners.

  27. Sue4466

    Apparently he doesn't understand the difference between "association" and "cause-and-effect."

    Schizophrenics might like pot, but that's likely because they're self-medicating, which a lot of mentally ill people do. Maybe if we had some better mental health care, they wouldn't need to do that. But health care reform is socialist. And looking at things beyond bumper sticker sloganeering makes our heads hurt.

  28. undeterredbyreality

    The douche currently hosting MSNBC just said, to his gun-law supporting guest: "But the fact that the two people who stopped the shooter were also carrying guns proves that it isn't the gun, it's the people that cause these types of things, doesn't it?" [paraphrase]


  29. LionelHutzEsq

    Or, perhaps, we are just being too harsh on Mr. Frum. Perhaps he means that Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin must be stoned out of their minds in order to spew their hatred without any conscious. Of course, as we know, Beck and Limbaugh get off on coke and opiates, while Palin gets riled up during blood orgies…, but, sure, marijuana might be to blamed also.

  30. baconzgood

    Let's do an actual scenario if this kid was stoned
    (gurgling of bong)
    Jared: Dude I'm pissed and going to kill that congress woman"
    Jared's pot head friend: Dude that's stupid. First you'd have to get your gun, load it, call a cab, turn off the tv, wait for the cab, ride all the way there, go up to her, pull out the gun, then shoot her. THEN you'd have to run away and try not to get caught.
    Jared: Dude I got cotton mouth.
    Jared's friend: Me too dude and I'm hungry.
    Jared:….Ahhhh, what…what were we talking about
    Jared's friend: Ahhhh. we…..Ahhh…I forgot. OH, we were going to pack another bong.

  31. Ducksworthy

    I just read that he is nihilistic, with almost indecipherable beliefs steeped in mistrust and paranoia and that somehow that makes him "not a right-wing, Tea Party acolyte of Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck". I though all of Beck's followers were nihilistic, with almost indecipherable beliefs and steeped in mistrust and paranoia. Actually, that sounds like Beck's job description.

    1. GOPCrusher

      It flies in the face of logic, the lengths that the Right-Wingers are going too to deflect responsibility for this act of domestic terrorism. The best thing about this situation is the shooter was taken alive. And if there is a God, somewhere during his confession or testimony, he will reveal that the reason he chose to commit this act was because of what he heard coming out of the mouths of Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, etc.
      The fact that this person was affiliated with American Rennaisance, a right wing, anti-government, anti Semitic, anti-immigrant group makes this a highly likely possibility.

  32. MinAgain

    I think it's more likely that the reason he went on a rampage was because he ran out of weed. Otherwise, the only real damage he inflicted would have been on a bag of Cheetos and a banana cream pie.

  33. mavenmaven

    Notice h0w they can't invoke 9/11 anymore, since this gunman killed the poor girl born on 9/11, so they have to find any liberal-sounding straw they can hang on to. Abortion? Yeah, that's what led to the shooting.

  34. PsycWench

    I await the call to greatly increase tobacco regulation, because schizophrenics are also much heavier smokers than non-schizophrenices.

    I'm a'waiting.

  35. Tundra Grifter

    Mr. Frumm wrote:

    "The connection between marijuana and schizophrenia is both controversial and complicated. The raw association is strong:

    "■Schizophrenics are twice as likely to smoke marijuana as non-schizophrenics.
    "■People who smoke marijuana are twice as likely to develop schizophrenia as those who do not smoke.
    "But is correlation causation?

    "Increasingly experts seem to be saying: 'Yes.'”

    In point of fact, No – correlation isn't causation. Mr. Frumm's "evidence" points to the fact that sick people self-medicate – especially when they can't access or don't want professional care.

    Substitute "alcohol" for "marijuana" and I suspect it would be just as true.

    This is an excellent example of facts – isolated and without context – proving nothing.

  36. BerkeleyBear

    Columns like Frum's remind us of why we should regulate the use of science by opinion columnists. The connection between science and columnists is complicated, but consider this – scientific correlations are almost always more complicated than a simple one to one linear progression; non science based opinion columnists overwhelmingly cannot comprehend such complicated reasoning; and their misrepresentation of the scientific correlation will almost always be taken at face value by their idiot readers.

    1. problemwithcaring

      Haha – yes. Rap music is the only place in American society where violence is represented.

  37. chickensmack

    David Frum must be wrong, because I heard someone on AFR today say that the shooter may have been a Satanist because he had some kind of altar with a skull on it.

    I shit you not.

  38. DeLand_DeLakes

    Guns don't kill people, pot kills people. Which is why on Saturday, Loughner beat six people to death with a fucking BONG. Idiots.

  39. ttommyunger

    I guess David Frumm and David Brooks are now dedicated to running neck and neck for the "Who's the Most Out of Touch Douchebag in America?" Award.

    1. chickensmack

      I'd like to nominate "every Monday Morning Sarah Palin defender in my goddamn Facebook roster today."

  40. ShaveTheWhales

    So, there's a Time article that cites several studies that, when controlled for age and gender, showed NO correlation between pot use and schizophrenia; and other studies that show a possible correlation. The same article also points out that the diagnosis rate of schizophrenia in the US has remained basically flat (at about 1%) since the 1940's, while pot use has, let's say, grown like a weed.

    Out of this article, Frum selects a single, admittedly interesting, French study from June 2010 as representative of the "expert view", and cites a bit of the Time article:

    "Within Krebs’s study population of 190 patients (121 of whom had used cannabis), researchers found a subgroup of 44 whose disease was powerfully affected by the drug. These patients either developed schizophrenia within a month of beginning to smoke pot or saw their existing psychosis severely exacerbated with each successive exposure to the drug. Schizophrenia appeared in these patients nearly three years earlier than in other marijuana-users with the disease."

    Interestingly, Frum doesn't quote the VERY NEXT SENTENCE in the article:

    "The key difference between the cannabis-sensitive patients and the nonaffected group was a family history of disease: those in the former group had three times the number of close relatives with psychotic disorders, says Krebs."

    So, David Frum cherry-picks a bit of interesting (but as yet un-reproduced) science from a Time summary (oh, and the part about "Schizophrenics are twice as likely to smoke marijuana as non-schizophrenics. People who smoke marijuana are twice as likely to develop schizophrenia as those who do not smoke." is a direct lift from the Time), and omits the most interesting part; and offers this as an argument for tighter regulation of weed.

    Nicely done, Mr. Science.

  41. OneDollarJuana

    Mr. Frumm meant to say:

    "The connection between conservative pundits and lying is both controversial and complicated. The raw association is strong:

    "Conservative pundits are twice as likely to lie as non-conservative pundits.
    "People who are pathological liars are twice as likely to develop conservative points-of-view as those who do not lie.
    "But is correlation causation?

    "Increasingly experts seem to be saying: 'Yes.'”

  42. pdiddycornchips

    In my own un-scientific research, the demographic with the highest percentage of pot smokers happens to be white women between the ages of 21 and 30. No wonder LiLo is constantly being locked up.

  43. WriteyWriterton

    I wasted 20+ of my most creative years smoking pot, but not because I was too busy shooting people to finish my first novel.


  44. lochnessmonster

    We need to find a better word for crap like this than "spree". Spree sounds like a fun thing –shopping spree — this was anything but.

  45. DahBoner

    No, the lack of pot caused this shooting.

    The asshole paid $25 a gram for "Spice", smoked it, didn't get high beyond bullshit 7th grade basement crap and then went on a Teabagger murder rampage.

    Teabagger murder sprees are CAUSED by bad fake pot.

    You don't see anyone going on a spree in Cali with pockets full of Sour Lemon Haze, do you?


  46. Sparky_McGruff

    We just need to put the cough syrup with Morphine in the over-the-counter section again. Grandma's got a scratchy throat again.

  47. arcadesproject

    well look i don't know about 'shooting rampage' but marijuana could be implicated in the sudden diminution of the total quantiity of potato chips available in the universe. or cheetohs.

  48. Demplican

    Frum just made the perfect argument for why today's healthcare system sucks and why Obamacare is the cure.

    And around and around we go.

  49. transfatz

    "I've got it, I've finally got it! It's all so meaningful. You see, two schizophrenics smoke pot twice and twice pot smokes two schizophrenics so…so…drat! Lost it again."

  50. lulzmonger

    Weed makes a lot more sick folks well than well folks sick … but where's the sweet sweet wingnut welfare in THAT story? David "Twitchy-Eye" Frum's just doing some logic-free water-carrying for his overseers, as usual.

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