Ha ha, here is some great newspaper from Nazi Germany that comically names the White House “Uncle Tom’s Cabin,” because a slave may soon call it home. This is very offensive, according to the Internet, and of course we all know why: what a nasty way to detract from Obama’s writing skill, by comparing it to Harriet Beecher Stowe’s! Have you actually *read* Uncle Tom’s Cabin? Yikes! [Spiegel]

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  1. Have you actually *read* Uncle Tom’s Cabin?

    No. But I did see the charming re-enactment by the children of the King of Siam. Is it faithful to the original?

  2. If only McCain were the likely President-Elect…then allegories could’ve been made to some of William Faulkner’s most cruel and crotchety characters. Then Germany and Kos could holds hands and skip into the sunrise because it’s Morning in America again, with a sunrise as yellow as McCain’s teeth.

  3. Jeebus you move the slaves to a new holding-house and all of a sudden the libtards are like “THATS NOT RACIAL TRANSCENDENCE!” ? What is happening to this country?

  4. We can forgive them, they’re Germans.
    It’s not like they done anything… horribly racist… oh yeah never mind.


  5. Absolutely true story: There is a stop on the Berlin subway called “Onkel Toms Hutte”. Apparently when the original book came out the Europeans loved it (because it gave them a chance to feel superior to Americans) and some Berlin bar named itself after the book to drum up business, and the neighborhood around the bar took the name, and the subway stop was named after the neighborhood.

    But wait, it gets better! A few years ago, the Berlin transit agency came out with a series of subway-themed underwear, each printed with the name of a train station that sounded vaguely dirty. There were panties that said “French Street” and boxer shorts that said “Pipe Avenue” (in German, obviously). Anyway, there were also boxer shorts that said “Onkel Toms Hutte”. A German guy I know swore that it had nothing to do with black men and their penises, since most Germans have never heard of the book — he claims that the shorts are supposed to be the “cabin” and “Uncle Tom” is what dwells within. But now that I’ve seen this, I’m sort of suspicous.

    Germans are racist, is what I’m saying.

  6. [re=8584]tunamelt[/re]: It’s pretty impressive that Uncle Barry gets bigger billing than “Germany’s Next Topmodel”. Can you make German phrases just by running words together? Thatsawesome.

  7. Can’t be sure if, as the Spiegel asks, it’s offensive or satirical (or tongue-in-cheek or wherever). It would help to be able to see the original article text.

    Eh, what the hell. I vote satirical. I get the sense that Barry would laugh at it, anyway.

  8. [re=8597]The Real JR Revisted[/re]: So not true. At least, I’m brown and I totally taste like candy if you lick me.

    [re=8598]Godless Liberal *[/re]: Did you ever listen to Loveline back in the day, when they had “Germany or Florida,” and they tried to stump people by saying some terrible atrocity that had occurred, and you had to guess whether it happened in Germany or in Florida?

  9. Sometimes Germany can’t help itself, they just gotta cut loose and behave like Kentucky with a 3 digit IQ. Either that or they are simply anticipating year 2 of the Hopey regime when he starts behaving like a vile sellout because Exxon taught him how to play golf an backslap people who care about sports convincingly.

  10. [re=8603]tunamelt[/re]: That seems appropriate. Weren’t the German tourists the ones getting shot while on vacation in Florida?

  11. [re=8577]The Real JR Revisted[/re]: Word. That is my experience with the novel too.

    Also, not to be racist, but I really like the phrase “Onkel Baracks Hutte.”

  12. [re=8584]tunamelt[/re]: Usually, it would be safe to assume that O-Face is naked on Page 6, but this isn’t a conservative paper, so I’m not sure.

  13. [re=8588]Josh Fruhlinger[/re]: Weird.

    So does everyone think the implication here is what it would be in America (that Barack is an “Uncle Tom”) or is it just, “Ha ha, a black in the White House, what will these crazy Yanks think of next?”

  14. From another article in Spiegel:

    “McCain is not an unknown quantity in Germany, either. As a dyed in the wool trans-Atlanticist, he regularly participates in the annual Munich Security Conference. The senator has a reputation there for his sharp attacks against German politicians — his fits of rage are feared and his political positions are known because of the numerous debates he has taken part in.”

    Apparently Germans want Barry to use his new maple pimp cane to defend them from Panamanian Strongman “Juan” WALNUTS! McCain.

    “his fits of rage are feared” – Yikes!

  15. [re=8603]tunamelt[/re]: Coincidentally, Obama plans to play “Ace’s Mexican Ranchero Accordian Countdown” before his stump speech to drum up Latino support.

  16. Racist German Newspaper —> Germans —> Beer —> Budweiser—> Cindy McCain —> John McCain —> Racist
    Hey! Creating conspiracies is easy!

  17. [re=8609]ronaldpagan[/re]: I’d tend to give the paper credit and say they’re using it in an object-of-stereotype-appropriates-slang-name sort of way, as in the saying “A woman’s place is in the House and in the Senate.”
    Since Uncle Tom was the long-suffering subservient character in the novel, and he occupied a run-down shack on his master’s plantation, using the phrase Uncle Barack’s Cabin throws Obama and the power and status of the White House in sharp contrast to the stock figure of the black man of 150 years ago.
    Far too serious. I will start drinking now.

  18. [re=8609]ronaldpagan[/re]: In my experience, Uncle Tom’s Cabin is the only piece of African-American-related literature that Germans might read in school, so this headline is totally not unexpected. They’re largely unaware of the modern connotations of “Uncle Tom”, though, and are more likely to think of his character as a hero (as Americans did, early on). So this headline was probably intended as a compliment, in a bizarre Teutonic sort of way.

    In order to understand the German mindset, picture the whitest place in America, and then make it about 50% whiter. Black people are like space aliens to them.

  19. [re=8620]tunamelt[/re]: Quite a niche market that blog is tailoring to.

    As far as Uncle Tom’s Cabin? I was only made available to a brief synopsis in “The King and I.”

  20. In Germany, this really does pass for funny. I’m sorry, it is a shame. But it’s also funny. In Germany. They’ll get better.

  21. Believe me boys and girls, Germany is not trying to piss off the future president of the US. At least not yet. Not as far as I know…

  22. Speaking of racist…have you noticed that occasionally, the t-shirt ad on your front page has obama holding a banana in a curios george pose?

  23. [re=8624]shortsshortsshorts[/re]: I’m imagining an updated production, in which the children perform Small House of Uncle Barack for King Georgie.

  24. [re=8639]StrangelyBrown[/re]: [re=8634]b bab[/re]: HOLY SHIT!!! I hadn’t noticed that. That’s not racial transcendence!!!

    Unless of course, it is a watermelon instead.

  25. Yep, I’ve read Uncle Thomas – no, wait, that’s the recent Extreme Court insider expose by a reputed member. I read the other one, though, and it was quite inspiring. It’s about an evangelical slave who is mistreated all his life and finally beat to death by other slaves. I’m not sure what the message is here.

  26. This is another reason to hope McCain makes Lieberman his VP selection. So this German paper can recycle the same cover photo, but with the headline, “Onkel Joes Koncentration Kamp.”

  27. [re=8634]b bab[/re]: Oh Christ I just saw that. Wonkette, I love you guys, but you need to be a little more selective about your sponsors.

    And thanks, everyone who weighed in on the Uncle Tom thing. Germans are crazy.

  28. [re=8647]ronaldpagan[/re]: Yes, we want Wonkette to more selective about its sponsors, but we also understand that there are bills to pay, and while they’re in transition, we understand…. We no likey, but we understand. What Wonkette’s doing is really hard, they’ll work it out…

  29. The Curious George ad is so WTFFITFS(What The Fuckin’ Fuck Is This Fucking Shit?) You are aggravating my Pseudo-Tourette’s with this!!

  30. I’m curious (no pun intended) what the “Camp Obama” t-shirt design looks like, but I REAAALY don’t want to go to that site. It’s probably got him swinging from a tree. Stay classy.

  31. [re=8658]Cicada[/re]: The ad people must have seen when the editors called us racist, misogynist jackasses and thought “That’s our target market!”

    And my mom seems to have chicken wings instead of arms.

  32. [re=8657]Black Cat[/re]: Oh come on. I love hopey as much as anyone, but we’d have to be rank hypocrites to object to this kind of thing after all the incredibly offensive stuff we say about Hillary and McCain on here everyday. The t-shirt is mild compared to the sexist and racist language that flies here (and I am as guilty of this as anyone).

  33. [re=8666]jagorev[/re]: No doubt, but it would still totally squick me out if there was an ad for a Hillary nutcracker flashing up there.
    I’ll ask again: When will Wonkette land the all-important TRUCK NUTZ ads? Now there’s a product I can get behind!

  34. My cousin in Kassel, C. Diederich, is funny as hell.
    She married a Georgian (the US state) black serviceman.
    We all were so happy for her, Obama style.
    We laughed at her ma who did not think it at all funny.
    German comedy gold.

  35. [re=8669]Son of Mark Penn[/re]: But who can stop with just one pair? They’re like potato chips. I’m thinking of getting a set of the brass-colored ones on my bicycle.

  36. [re=8666]jagorev[/re]: I guess I’m in denial because I rememver when this site made fun of sexists and racists. Perhaps its time for me to admit that it’s become something I really don’t care to be a part of.

  37. [re=8577]The Real JR Revisted[/re]: Of course it is – just look at the lyrics:

    Run Obama run!
    Run from Clinton!

    Who can save him?
    Only Buddha Muhummad
    Save him, Buddha Muhummad, save him
    What will Buddha Muhummad do?

  38. [re=8676]Black Cat[/re]: All I’m saying is, if it’s fair to talk about McCain’s shrivelled ballsack or decomposing cheeks on this site, then let’s not act like we’re shocked when people we disagree with say offensive things about Obama.

  39. [re=8676]Black Cat[/re]: Erm…sorry to get all serious, but I think some folks using that language are making fun of sexists and racists. I mean, those Hillary nutcrackers are such an out-to-lunch ridiculous sexist item, who can resist poking fun at them? And people often pretend to embrace the item they find offensive as a device to mock it. I believe some folks call this “irony”, but that term is so misused I hesitate to use it here.

    Case in point: I’m not really getting brass-colored TRUCK NUTZ for my bike.
    I’m getting Camo-colored ones.

  40. [re=8681]jagorev[/re]: I’m just sick of people telling me that Barry’s black, when he’s clearly a middle-aged white woman.

  41. [re=8683]Cicada[/re]: I agree. I think its one thing to display the hilary clinton nutcrackers, and another thing to profit off of their sale. I’ve always assumed there’s layers of sarcasm and commentary to Wonkette’s editorial voice. It’s different, because the humor on this site is based on a sense of knowing… the above article isn’t funny, unless you know how ridiculous/offensive it is to call the white house Uncle Barak’s cabin.

    I want my truk nutz racially transcendent: half black, half white.

  42. [re=8683]Cicada[/re]: As you said, “some folks.” Unfortunately, there’s been some pretty nasty stuff during this primary season that wasn’t trying to be ironic at all. I changed my handle when the site changed, oh fuck, can’t finish sentence, McCain is on tv doing a commerical for Lifetime! Lifetime! The channel that bought Project Runway!

    And now you all know that I’m watching Lifetime right now…shit. I might need to change my handle…

  43. I went to Stirling University in Scotland for a year. I had a German, Norwegian, Dutch and a bunch of Scottish roommates. Everyone (except me) hated the German from day one. He wore all black, ate only vegetables and never smiled.

    He ended up dating an American girl from Ohio with an impossibly gigantic ass. She only wore jeans and worn out hoodies. It made no sense and because of that experience I try to pretend Germany doesn’t exist.

    This isn’t relevant, I just wanted to share. Also, here is my list of the craziest Hillary sites,in ascending order of craziness:

    1. MyDD
    2. TalkLeft
    3. Taylor Marsh
    4. NoQuarter
    5. Hillaryis44

  44. [re=8693]Black Cat[/re]: Lifetime? I’m heating up the tar and emptying the down pillows as I type.
    I hear what you’re saying about this primary, it has gotten nasty at times. There were quite a few debates on the topic, as I recall.
    But I’m ready to let the healing begin, y’all. Let’s crack some tallboys and drink a toast to unity in the face of WALNUTS! withered visage and t-rex arms!

  45. I think the only thing I’ve learned today is that Susie Gharib (co-anchor of PBS’ Nightly Business Report) is an inveterate racist.

  46. From the “Der Spiegel” article:

    “This is not the first time that [Die Tageszeitung] has made an “Uncle Tom” reference. Back in 2004, the paper ran a story about Condoleezza Rice’s appointment as US secretary of state under the headline “Uncle Tom’s Rice.”

    Was that some kind of multi-pronged black/Asian dig? Or are they dragging Uncle Ben into this too?

  47. [re=8693]Black Cat[/re]: Obama has one too, but it is quite awesome, well as awesome as a commercial on Lifetime can be.

    Fuck. I just admitted I was watching Lifetime earlier. Don’t kill me. I am watching the NBA Finals now. One sporting event cancels out one hour of Lifetime.

  48. [re=8706]HerExcellency[/re]: It’s the Lakers. Can’t get any lamer than that. The Lakers are the Lifetime of professional sports. Sorry to rip the band-aid off the fast way like that, mang.

    As an apology to southern California, this Portlander offers the following proposal:

    Vice President Barbara Boxer. She’s smart, competent, dresses well, and was balls-on-fire today on C-Span. Way more real than you-know-who. Obama/Boxer sounds badass.

  49. Hey everyone, I just came back after a few hours and believe me, that monkey ad is quite a SHOCK to see and is definitely not meant to be a joke or there at all. I’m trying to figure out what’s going on…

  50. germans are interesting; i went to germany a few years ago and found them much more progressive and enlightened than i typically see in america — because they had to own up to wwii, whereas america has never had to own up to its racist history — but at the same time they don’t get where in america we pretend to face up to race by policing the language we use to talk about it rather than actually talking about it, and they freely just… go there. “you americans,” i got told, by a person who i know was basically an innocent soul and didn’t harbor racist hatred of any conspicuous sort, “have such a problem with blacks!” substitute “race” with blacks and you’ve pretty much arrived at the truth, but he used the wrong word and it came out all hamhocked.

    and yeah, what’s with that obama eating the banana shirt anyway? interesting how having an african american and a woman running for president has really made all this stuff bubble to the surface. probably healthy, ultimately.

    anyway, hi, everybody.

  51. [re=8706]HerExcellency[/re]: Yeah, I noticed that later, but I was on the phone for Obama’s so I didn’t hear what he siad.

  52. My dad told me a story once. He said that after the war, the Germans he met would always bring up how the U.S. treated “it’s negros”, as some sort of excuse for the persecution of the Jews. It is nice to see how far they have come in their thinking in the last 60 years or so. I think if dad were still alive, he might say, “Didn’t we just kick there asses a while back. Twice?”…Dad couldn’t let it go.

  53. See, I totally have no problem with this. I read it like, It’s Uncle Barack’s Cabin, BITCH. Suck it whitey, etc. But people are constantly telling me I’m racist and love Hitler, so I probably am not the best judge.

  54. [re=8709]Jim Newell[/re]: Well, like above comments have mentioned, it doesn’t seem like the site that is advertising the shirts has much in the way of fcuntioning brain cells behind it. And I had to do some ad policing for the site that I write for – it’s a bitch of a job.

  55. [re=8744]ronaldpagan[/re]:

    I’m predicting a photo on the front page of the Post tomorrow. Barry and Hillz exiting Scores at 5 in the morning.

  56. [re=8742]jagorev[/re]: Boilermakers for all!

    Now here’s a controversial theory: Clinton is funner than a barrel of monkeys when she’s drunk. I bet Obama just handles it with class and gets tired. Of course, add cocaine to the mix and it’s an entirely different story. Hillary would get homicidal and Barry would break out the dance moves we never saw on Ellen.

  57. Clinton asked Obama to have this meeting. What a go-getter. I hope she gets drunk enough for a stream of apologies, followed by “Don’t you know I always loved you? I just didn’t know how to show it.” All that sexual tension from the Hollywood debates, revisited.

  58. [re=8649]greatgooglymoogly[/re]: Lighten up. Most Germans are not Hitler. Hitler was crazy, and also nuts. Which isn’t to suggest we cannot mock. Of course we must mock. We also have to refrain from randomly comparing those who don’t know how to tell a good joke to Hitler. Hitler was way worse than any bad comic. Unless of course these bad joke tellers also happened to have lots of people murdered etc., and then, mock at your own risk.

  59. [re=8745]El Bombastico[/re]: Totally understandable. Horses are just big, dumb dogs. Dumb dogs that can throw you off of their backs and then trample you. But riding around? Fun! I rode competitively in high school, and I hated my horse.

    [re=8747]ronaldpagan[/re]: But what about Michelle? Oh, god. Don’t leave Michelle alone with Bill? I shudder to think of the shape that his face would be in should she open up a can of whoopass on him.

  60. There was a meeting. It was not at Hillary Clinton’s house. (I’m betting it was at Jim Johnson’s Georgetown condo.) Staff worked out the schedules. Obama wanted to talk about bringing the party together.

    1. Who asked for the meeting? Barack Obama.
    2. Which side leaked the existence of the meeting? Barack Obama’s. After originally refusing to answer reporters questions, the campaign then confirmed that there was a meeting but said they would never divulge the details; then they divulged the details.
    3. Which side speaks first about the content of the meeting? Not clear.
    4. When was the invitation proffered? Sunday and Monday
    5. Did the Obama campaign insist on meeting Clinton before she speaks publicly? Not clear.
    6. How angry is the Obama press corps? A little bit.
    7. How much (or little) does the Obama press team care about the feelings about the Obama press corps? They say they did not intend to mislead the press corps.
    8. Was there internal disagreement about the decision to ditch the press corps? Kind of an irrelevant question.


  61. [re=8695]Rodney Badger[/re]: thank you. seriously. if i have to hear / read one more thread about the Lamentable Tragedy of Hillary and the Bitters….


  62. [re=8751]ronaldpagan[/re]:

    Think about the week Barry’s had:

    Tuesday: clinches the nomination & charms the pantsuits off of a bunch of Hillary supporters by treating them with respect and showing them what winning graciously looks like.

    Wednesday: pimptimidates Joe Lieberman on the senate floor.

    Thursday: threatens to bludgeon congress with his new pimp-stick, takes a meeting with Hillz.

    I don’t even want to tell you what I did this week.

  63. [re=8763]jagorev[/re]: Every link about this says different shit (mine said the meeting was Clinton’s idea.) Weirdness…I’m not worried about it as long as he’s not planning on offering the VP slot to McCain (who, incidentally, would take it.)

  64. [re=8767]obfuscator[/re]: I know right? And don’t worry, you had the same week we all did; you haven’t turned MSNBC off for days, and you’ve been liveblogging every minute of it while toasting Barry with Andre champagne.

  65. [re=8770]jagorev[/re]:

    I drank cheap domestic beer, smoked cigarettes, and posted comments on a political blog.

    Jesus, Pat BooCannon is on Colbert. Stephen’s letting him talk waaaay too much.

  66. [re=8777]Smoke Filled Roommate[/re]: It’s a t-shirt with a cartoon Obama holding a banana, although I haven’t seen it recently so maybe Jim fixed it.

    [re=8778]obfuscator[/re]: I am so jealous I don’t have cable! At least I have cigarettes.

  67. [re=8775]ronaldpagan[/re]:

    I don’t know if it reflects well on me as a person, but when I read about the Barry-Lieberman episode, I got fucking giddy. Yes, giddy. It just felt like something had clicked in Barry’s head and he snapped into full-on general election mode. It played in my mind like a scene from The West Wing or something.

    In a previous comment, I said that they met tonight in NYC. After reviewing the AP story, I’m not sure where I got that from.

  68. [re=8792]obfuscator[/re]: I wasn’t quite giddy, but I felt SO happy. Joe is a smug fucking schmuck, and I LOVE the idea of someone standing up to him rather than letting him run his mouth like he does.

  69. [re=8791]ronaldpagan[/re]: Oh, that tee made its way on here? That is weird…
    Cable? Screw cable.. You need satellite HD!

  70. [re=8802]AnnieGetYourFun[/re]:

    The idea of a ‘Democrat’ ripping his own party’s presidential nominee on something as important as foreign policy while simultaneously jerking the GOP candidate off is pretty crazy. Makes you wonder why Harry Reid couldn’t put a stop to that kind of shit before it started.

  71. [re=8599]El Bombastico[/re]: Das ist awesomelichte or something like that. Farvegnugen. Sicherandienst. Panzerkampfwagen. God, I am glad I took one year of German. Jawol!

  72. Considering the German culture gaffe that started this chain it is actually ironic that the “Obama monkey” t-shirts are yet another example of a culture of foreigns unintentionally stumbling into the American neurosis poop pie. These shirts actually started showing up in Japan last year, I remember seeing a picture of one on a blog somewhere and thinking, oh dear, they really have no idea do they? And apparently the Japanese are just crazy about Obama, they really love him. I imagine they’d be crushed to learn they managed to pick one of our country’s most despised racial iconographies to represent the man they like so much.

    I don’t know what it means that they’ve made it to the United States. Is it some kind of super slick ultra meta profound ironical commentary on global culture? Or is it just a bad idea? If Abecrombie & Fitch pick it up, we’ll know it was a really horrific idea.

  73. [re=8792]obfuscator[/re]: I was totes giddy too. Kill Joe Lieberman!

    [re=8806]Smoke Filled Roommate[/re]: It wasn’t the infamous monkey one. It was the same thing except the monkey was replaced with Obama’s face. Although when you think of the banana as symbolic of my imaginary cock (which as you know is named Hillary), things get a lot hotter.

  74. [re=8819]ronaldpagan[/re]:

    The whole episode just had that “I’m in charge now… don’t fuck with me” vibe to it.

    Incidentally, not having cable is probably a plus… have you seen the shit that’s on tv these days?

  75. [re=8792]obfuscator[/re]: I had an instant visualization in my head like I was there.. I imagined Barry getting in lethally close, offending all personal space etiquette and just about taking the air out of Lieberman.. Nice!

  76. [re=8831]Smoke Filled Roommate[/re]:

    I’m thinking about senate pages and other staffers who witnessed the episode feverishly working their Blackberrys: “DOOOD! BARRY PWNS LEEB! ZOMG!”

  77. [re=8816]populucious[/re]: I had to take an entire class to explain to my Chinese graduate students that “nigger” was not, in fact, a nice way to great someone with dark skin. I can’t tell you the kind of panic I felt when my students assured me that “We love niggers! Michael Jordan! Best nigger!”. I was seriously sweating, begging them to never repeat that word outloud again.

    I think it happens quite a bit, anyway. And lord knows that the Japanese can’t resist a t-shirt with a cartoon monkey on it. But I do think this German magazine meant it as satire of a sort.

    [re=8834]obfuscator[/re]: If that were on a t-shirt, I would buy it.

  78. [re=8840]AnnieGetYourFun[/re]:

    I had a similar thought on the shirt. I’m willing to chalk it up to a lack of awareness of popular memes or whatever the correct term is. The thing is, when the shirt is sold here, I’m not willing to give the benefit of the doubt. Anyone who is old enough to buy the shirt is old enough to have a basic awareness of the idea that the “black guy caricatured as a primate” thing is a wee bit racist.

  79. [re=8830]obfuscator[/re]: It so did, I love it!

    I have indeed seen the shit on TV, but have you seen the shit they’ll put on the internet (my #1 TV substitute)?

  80. [re=8840]AnnieGetYourFun[/re]: DAMN that is a fucked up story. I see where the confusion comes from…they probably hear rap lyrics and stuff…

    [re=8842]obfuscator[/re]: And yes, Americans definitely don’t get the benefit of the doubt. But tons of other countries are severely racist and know very well what they’re doing. You can still see people in blackface on, like, South American TV shows.

  81. So I was scrolling up and I had to say something:

    [re=8635]Advocatus_Diaboli[/re]: Did you just insult “99 Luftballoons”? OH HELL NO I WILL CUT YOU

  82. [re=8850]ronaldpagan[/re]:

    Point taken, but at least the internet shit doesn’t force you to watch a 30 second spot for Enzyte.

  83. [re=8860]ronaldpagan[/re]:

    Best use of “99 Luftballoons”: a short sequence in the John Cusack vehicle “Grosse Pointe Blank”.

  84. ok, nothing better than ranting without facts getting in your way, but …

    what you should know is that the TAZ (as we Natzis lovingly call her) is the german Wonkette – if Wonkette was a newspaper.
    And, of course, hitler-endorsing hatemongers because of being germans and stuff.

    so, yes, think of “uncle barrack” in the vein of “hopemonger”

    Cheers from not so sunny Darmstadt, which was completely razed on 9/11. In 1944. Courtesy of America.

  85. [re=8870]gurukalehuru[/re]: Now that should be a t-shirt.

    [re=8873]bitbull[/re]: Please stay here and explain more! So is this headline, as some people were saying, a comment on “Black people have gone from slavery to the White House in a century and a half”?

  86. [re=8842]obfuscator[/re]: Agreed. I don’t doubt for a second that the t-shirt being advertised here was intended as racist. I appreciate Wonkette getting right on that, too.

    [re=8873]bitbull[/re]: Oh, c’mon, we can’t tease you guys about Hitler? How about meticulous attention to detail or great engineering skills? See? Not as funny as Hitler!

  87. no, its just semi-comically wordplay, shot from the hip.
    Taz is famous for it, sometimes it works, sometimes not.

    I think its quite funny, political incorrect of course, but what do i know.

  88. [re=8877]AnnieGetYourFun[/re]: [re=8877]AnnieGetYourFun[/re]: tease away!
    But you should know that we´re madly in love with hopey here in Deutschland, too. Continue your snarkfest, and we´ll joining the ranks of the bitters.

  89. Funny, I was just amount to point out the ironies of the Nazi reference in the article when there’s a post from a German. That’s German efficiency for you!

    [re=8877]AnnieGetYourFun[/re]: There’s always Lederhosen and Oktoberfest!

  90. [re=8892]iwillsavethispatient[/re]: OMG, but I LOVE lederhosen. Also, the habit of capitalizing all nouns.

    [re=8888]bitbull[/re]: Nah, I won’t really tease. And I always had the feeling that Hopey would be received well overseas.

    The thing about this that’s kind of funny is… do y’all remember that German dude who mistook an Onion article about looking forward to an abortion as an ACTUAL article endorsing abortion? ( He used his German upbringing as an excuse for not ‘getting’ that The Onion was satirical.

    Methinks me might have lied.

  91. [re=8898]AnnieGetYourFun[/re]: I also like the double-s character, as we all know how much time we waste each year writing “ss”…

  92. *he might have lied. And THAT’S the gin and valium kicking in.

    [re=8902]iwillsavethispatient[/re]: and umlauts! Sure, we don’t really have a need for them, but I like to think of them as earrings for my vowels.

  93. [re=8875]ronaldpagan[/re]: You asked: So is this headline, as some people were saying, a comment on “Black people have gone from slavery to the White House in a century and a half”?

    As editor from taz newspaper in Berlin, I can assure you that this is exactly what we intended to express. While the old “Uncle Tom” was eager to please whites and rather get killed than stand up, the “Uncle Barack” is heading towards the most powerful job a politician can have in this world. We thought that our way of saying: “Look what a great story!” by combining the “uncle”-thing with a majestic foto of the White House would be self explanatory, but obviously it didn’t work this way for many people who rather understand any sort of “Uncle Tom” allegory as racist and offensive.

    By the way, this is not a German-American conflict. In our US election blog we invited our readers to comment on this issue, and most answers (from germans!) went in the same direction, feeling offended by our headline. ( – for those who read german.)

  94. [re=8914]taz[/re]: Hey editor of the German Wonkette! That is amazing that you made it here…hope you’ll stick around…

    I totally understand what you were trying to get across, and realize that your business is satire and therefore you can get away with a lot of offensive shit. But even so, there’s certain things that just come off as racist here, regardless of their intention. I don’t know how to explain it better than that. It’s a cultural thing, is what it boils down to. Hire this kid and it can clear up any future problems:

    Seriously, please stay here! That would be awesome if we could get a United States/Germany irreverent satire alliance.

  95. fu§) ya’ll for generalizing germans and fu(/ ya’ll for thinking black/white! who’s racist? someone who puts a man thats half asian half african in the black corner? or someone who is writing a sarcastic article about what problems obama will face in the white house? you translate a german headline and talk all sophisticated about it but without any clue what is written in that paper! what the fu”(?? i realize my account here won’t exist very long but whatever, i couldn’t resist telling ypu poeple how stupid you are. if hillary was elected, would you guys blame germans for still selling the playboy maganzine? how fuc)§ing stupid can one be? fuc§)in’ fu”(s. damn give me a break!

  96. In Germany, class is key, in America, Race is Key. The Tageszeitung is a left wing newspaper which highlights the fact for me that this is intended to be a cut on American racism. The Germans have loads of semi-racist sayings, songs, etc because they are not that sensitive to it. But if you tried to show a swastika in German or said sieg-heil to a police officer, you would be arrested.

    For more fun German plays on race, see Günther

  97. [re=8752]graceless*[/re]: Agreed re: Germans.

    [re=8666]jagorev[/re]: I can see where you coming from, but just like veffekt said, Race is key. Yes, there’s been alot of snarky borderlining on nasty comments tinged with sexism and ageism (and although I’m still considered “young”, I don’t find it funny either). If anything, the reaction to the Obama T-shirt, regardless of where it came from should bear the question, are the commentors as much of the EOO (Equal Oppotunity Offenders) as we like to think we are?

    [re=8940]pinnback[/re]: Let me explain why your comment annoys me, it’s because you’re trying to point out our hypocrisy of it all (which has already been done BTW, if you to read even half the comments), and you could’ve done it in a way in which people can have a discussion with you, but instead, because I guess you figured your account would be deleted, decided to be a troll about it, thus people will just think you’re a troll (a concern troll at that) and not pay attention to you.

  98. [re=8914]taz[/re]: I agree, I hope you can stick around too. I do have a question for you though. Since Europe seems to be responding positively to an Obama presidency, I’m wondering its feelings about having black prime ministers/presidents, etc in their own country?

  99. [re=8956]veffekt[/re]:
    Actually, this is an advertisement from the Netherlands! ;)
    (Btw, the german flag at the end, is upside down!^^)
    It´s kind of a love-hate relationship between the Dutch and German people!

  100. [re=9161]Diamond…[/re]: if you don´t mind me answering – black politicians are a non-issue. At least in germany , because we really don´t have them around. They would be seen as a curiosity, but recieved with sympathy, i suppose. A more fitting analogy is pairing US black politicians with german turkish ones – they are a sizable minority around here and are repeatedly accused of building their own “parallelgesellschaft”, shut-off communities with their own culture, language and rules. So, there´s quite some anxiety to go around and i think a politician with turkish roots would face quite an uphill struggle. Right now Cem Özdemir is running for Leader of the german Green Party; we´ll see how this shakes out.

    On another note, we endorse queers and women in top political positions. Does this count for anything?

  101. [re=9295]bitbull[/re]: It does in my book, but I have some redneck relatives who might feel otherwise.

    I’m fascinated by the issues facing Germany with immigrant communities, particularly Turks. I just received one of those retarded “if you don’t like our policies, we’ll just get rid of all our military bases and not send you any aid when you are in trouble, mm-kay” emails that is always attributed to Robin Williams despite not having any of the hallmarks of his humor… and there’s inevitably a line about how much Spanish-speaking immigrants suck. I wonder if Germany has the same version of rednecky-ness?

  102. [re=9321]AnnieGetYourFun[/re]: Ha, don´t we ever!
    Eastern germany is famous for their “no-go areas” (if you are … errrm … of a colored persuation) and neo-nazi movements. At least thats what i´m hearing; i won´t go there, being a proud west german.
    Ironically they´re accusing immigrants stealing their jobs, but those accused are all here in the west. Together with them jobs. Maybe eastern germany needs more immigrants.

  103. I´ve never read so much racist crap in one post.

    So, Americans calling today’s Germans Nazis, but they are insulted when they are still thought of as slave-owners and Native-American-baby-killers? How ironic. Well, if you haven’t made it into the present, don’t complain about being stuck in the past.

    Also, let me explain why there are not that many black people in Germany, or Europe, for that matter: Because Germany did not drag millions of black people from Africa for hundreds of years to use them as slaves and treat them like cattle. You did. Stop pretending the black presence in the U.S. is the result of a liberal immigration policy. it is not. Its you legacy of slavery.

    Oh, an Uncle Tom is known as an anti-slavery-book in Germany. Everything else is just internal American squabble nobody cares about.

  104. “A more fitting analogy is pairing US black politicians with german turkish ones – they are a sizable minority around here and are repeatedly accused of building their own “parallelgesellschaft”, shut-off communities with their own culture, language and rules”

    Nonsense. Black Americans are not recent immigrants, they are here much longer than white Americans. Stop that white-entitlement-crap. Whiteys own this country no more than blacks do, actually, even less.

  105. The TAZ/die tageszeitung is a daily news paper established in 1978 in the American Sector of Berlin (West). It was and still is a propaganda media of the alternativ/leftist/anti-capitalistic/anti-globalization party of the greens here in Berlin and now the Federal Republic of Germany, it never speaks with one voice for “the Germans”.

    Uncle Toms Cabin is not a book what my generation (I’m born in ’62) read in school, US-American authors are not a theme in history as some-one said, maybe in English at high school.
    The only American literature I read in school was Tom Sawyer, but just because I was at the Mark-Twain-Grundschule (primary school).
    But I read more than 30 years ago Uncle Toms Cabin at home, like To Kill A Mockingbird, Cannery Row or Catcher In The Rye. Every of this books has it’s own weak point; it’s the challenge to find it and not only to read them for amusement.

    @ AnnieGetYourFun: We have huge problems with Turkish peoples here in Germany and I can tell you stories they will fill more than a book but: We have no problems with Turkish immigrants!
    Immigrants are integrated into the social community, they speak our language and respect our laws and rules, they are respected neighbours. BUT more than 90% of the Turkish community stand beside our community. It’s what we call literally a parallel society, imagine “Chinatown”, bullseye!

    But back to the topic, there are the reaction of the TAZ in English:

    @ Susanne. I don’t know where you live, but we have more than 600,000 black (is it politically correct?) people in Germany. Circa 2/3 of them are civil war refugees from Africa and their children and grandchildren, born in Germany.
    The other 1/3 are ex-US-soldiers who stayed after their service in Berlin (West) or West-Germany, and there is a very small minority from Angola who were hired as workers in East-Germany and stayed after reunification (like a lot of people from Vietnam).

    And Germany played his own role in the dirty game of slavery. The Great Elector of Brandenburg had a small fleet and make his money with slaves. He buyed them from slve-trades from Africa and sold them to British settlers at the American colonies. So he build the cadre of the Prussian treasury. His fleet transported more slaves than the British and Netherlands fleets together!

    So Susanne, read your books or take some lessons at the Volkshochschule.

  106. just keep smiling about it. i was born in germany but left it forever. germans don’t know and don’t wont to know their own history, how could they understand american history. i live still in europa and every day i discover in spanish or swedish newspapers that most germans don’t know what happens really in Europe … but Africa, Asia or America are mysteries, really!
    they listen to blues but don’t want to know what it means, they admire obama but don’t understand him. Have pity with them and wait 100 years befare they wake up.

  107. hello susanne,
    i have still relatives in germany and i think i know what you want to say, but i don’t think that you really mean what you say. germany has internet and all possibilities to open its mind and to go on, but they don’t use it. history goes on and if you lived only one year in another country you’d discover that germany belongs to the countries which are NOT Open and NOT OPEN MINDED. but most germans THINK they are open. wake up, please!

  108. An other thing I wonder is in which way the most people here comment the fact that we have a U-Bahn-/subway station in Berlin who is named Onkel-Toms-Hütte.

    Some lessons in our local history:

    The U-Bahn station Onkel-Toms-Hütte was named because of a near by residential area (build in 1929) of this name. This area was named by an old pub/Biergarten with the name Onkel Toms Hütte.
    This pub was build in 1885! Because it’s owner Thomas (Tom) build small cabins for his guests in the beer garden as an protection against the rain AND the book Uncle Tom’s Cabin was popular then, the pub get this name.

  109. [re=8588]Josh Fruhlinger[/re]: The pub had officially an other name but the guests give it a nick name what became famous and well known.

    You are a dumb nut, that’s what I know for sure.

  110. “I don’t know where you live, but we have more than 600,000 black (is it politically correct?) people in Germany. Circa 2/3 of them are civil war refugees from Africa and their children and grandchildren, born in Germany.
    The other 1/3 are ex-US-soldiers who stayed after their service in Berlin (West)”

    Yes, and non of them a former slaves because Germany, as opposed to the U.S., did not have black slaves. In the US, however, there are 40 million black people, 99 percent of them are the descendants of slaves from the US or the Carribean. They never got paid for their suffering and their labor.

    The United States had slavery and/or Jim Crow Laws for 500 years. Black people were killed like dogs in the South as recently as in the 1960s with the endorsement of local law enforcement (look up Emmett Till).

    I’m really sick of that smug attitude of Whiteys in the U.S. pretending they own the country, and African Americans are some sort of immigrants who need to get in line. Black people were brought here to replace the murdered Native Americans who did not bow to slavery. Black Americans have more entitlement to the land than every white person. Same goes for the Hispanics who are descendants of Native South Americans.

    Yeah, and the Prussian involvement in slave trade … that’s like blaming Prescott Bush for the Nazis.

  111. Well, in any case, its interesting that Harriet Beecher Stowe is now considered a racist in the U.S.

    That leaves the number of non-racist in the U.S. before 1960 at .. what … Zero?

  112. Yeah, and old man, the most annoying Germans are the ones who left the country and now think they are better than everybody else they left behind.

  113. [re=9688]Susanne[/re]: i don’t think i’m better but i couldn’t stand germany any longer. they juge about others but don’t accept their own problems. and think a bit how germans are to immigrates. but not only to immigrates, you have north germany agains south germany and east against west. they juge others but never stayed abroad. i understund that you defind germany, never mind, but read just sometimes newspapers in spanish, french, italian or swedish and you’ll discover the lies german papers produce. ther pity is, that most of them even don’t accept other ways of living other mentalities just like under the time germans like to forget. sorry, you should really open your eyes what most germans refuse.

  114. [re=9684]Susanne[/re]: “…Yes, and non of them a former slaves because Germany, as opposed to the U.S., did not have black slaves. …”

    Susanne, the circa 200,000 colored ex-US-Soldiers here in Germany were also no slaves but their ancestors were.
    But what I want to say, what do you think why many of them stayed here?

    And I really didn’t understand your sentence about the Brandenburgian-Prussian slave-trade and Prescott Bush. Some kind of Nazi-Keule after losing any respectable argument?
    Maybe an other example is better. Think you have heard about the handful of colored Germans who live here since we had colonies? Their ancestors from the colonies were not slaves in the meaning of the word but what our ancestors had done to them was not much better than slavery.

  115. [re=9702]old_man[/re]: “… i don’t think i’m better but i couldn’t stand germany any longer. they juge about others but don’t accept their own problems. …”

    What is your problem old_man? Believing that every German in Germany is reading only German news papers. Don’t know when and from which part of Germany you immigrated elsewhere, but where I live you can buy foreign news papers not only at airports. did you think they displayed them just as a decoration?
    And not to mention these new technologies, I mean Radio and TV and the Internet for sure.
    I really wish that more of this stereotyped people like you left the country for ever.

  116. Old man, If I need some bigoted old know-it-all to order me around, and lecture me about what I should read, think and buy, I’ll let you know.

  117. AnnieGetYourFun: Yeah, its odd how these All-Germans-are-Nazis-threats always end up mentioning Prescott Bush, and ruining the fun for every American. Especially if you consider how bravely millions of Americans have risked their life, their career and the safety of their families to fight George W. Bush and his illegal war.

  118. [re=9805]Susanne[/re]: Hey, you write the funny stuff there! Only one suggestion:
    Could you shrill it up a bit? No offense but it’s kinda mild and milquetoast, ya know?

  119. [re=9806]Susanne[/re]: Did you… did you GET this thread at all? I mean, did you understand that the original post didn’t ACTUALLY mean that all Germans are Nazis? Do you realize that this site is FILLED TO THE FUCKING BRIM with people who can’t stand the current president, his family, or the war?

    Jesuschristonacracker, I’m one of the few people I know whose grandparents actually survived Nazi occupation, and even I don’t make generalizations like that, as easy as it would be.

    I’m going to assume that you’re just like The Onion abortion guy, and have no clue was satire is; otherise, you wouldn’t be so goddamn smug.

    And I’M usually the one who brings up Prescott Bush and Walt Disney, so you can just suck it.


    Really, i don´t know what to say. I´m back to being ashamed for germany, i guess. Way to make an entrance, folks!

  121. Susanne: Not everybody here likes Bush or Obama or Clinton the same way that not every German is a Nazi. Not whole America had slavery and not Native Americans eliminated the Indians. The killers came from Spain, France and Britain to make money in another country. And if you tell me that Germany had no slavery, ok, but what have been all the Italians, the communists, the Jews and others in World War II? Many didn’t survive and what did the survivors get? Most of them nothing because Germans told them “it is history”. Why can Germans don’t think the same way if it concerns other pays? The other are bad but Germans are good? You don’t want lectures like most of Germans. Are you the race superior just like 80 years ago? Do you know that Ohia is not Florida and Florida not Montana, Montana not California and California not NY?
    And do you think that black people in Germany could get a chance? Do you really think so? Or do you think a German with Turkish background could become Kanzler? NEVER!

  122. yeah kind of a heavy headline.
    but at least good that the didnt write “Uncle Obama’s barrack”
    some humor should be kept for a smaller audience.

    i’d actually appreciate if hillary and obama could do the job together, as the dual entity.
    man and woman, black and white. sounds kinda mystical. (like putin and medvedev, har har)

  123. Hello, sorry for the stupid title. I think B.Obama has more friends in germany than any other politician from USA. Come to vistit Germany, we love foreign cultures, the worldwar is over..- this is a new germany, here is the real Land of the Free,yes you can because: yes we could!!!!! Do the change!

  124. I’m also from Germany.
    This all-germans-are-nazi-bullshit have to stop! Our Nation has a history we are not proud of and we are aware of it. But I think every even so big nation has ab dark episode in its history. Just because this hind is comming from germany it did not lose its truth:
    It’s the first time ever a descendant of slaves or even a member of a ethnic minority has the opportunity to become the President of the US.

    I’m expacting that this point will also be part of discsion and hustings in the next weeks at the media.

    @old_man: Until Mrs. Merkel has become Kanzler it was also a unspoken law that only men could do this job. I don’t know how good you are informed in german politic and society. Right this time we have “a problem” with immigrants:
    In the 60th till the late 80th there was a program that was called “Gastarbeiter” (like the US-Greencard). It invites for exemple turkish people to come to germany and work here because the german economy was so strong that it needed more workers. The immigrants came here to germany but ever belived that once there will come the day they dicide to go back into their own Contrys. Because of this they never learned more german then they need to know for working and basic conversation. They never get involved into the rest of the society. Today their children of course have german passports but still live here as “strangers”.
    I think if there would be a turkish candidate for Kanzler he also could win we don’t vote for Persons but for a poltical party.

    Greeting from Germany

  125. @fromoversea: I know the German “problems” because I have relatives there (I visit them once a year) even if I don’t live there. Another part of my family lives in Canada and the rest in France and in Sweden.
    I didn’t speak of Turkish background meaning those who are NOT integrated and sure, they exist. But there are others who studied in Germany, who feel like Germans and who never speak Turkish but German. And there are still Germans who won’t accept this and so many leave the country they wonted to live in, but not only to go to Turkey but also to Norway, to America and other countries who ask for knowledge and not for the colour of their skin. You shouldn’t take the bad examples because you’ll find them always and everywhere. I lived in five different countries and I met everywhere two sides. I was born in Germany and I’m married to woman who doesn’t even speak German (some words, that’s all) but I felt welcome in her country. She never felt the same in Germany. Never mind, we won’t go there because there are a lot of countries who accept us just like we are and a language isn’t a problem, I speak seven currently and if I should change the country another time I’ll learn the language, read history and will integrate me.

  126. I agree with old man, Susanne’s point to ignore the american discourse on the heritage of slavery and racism and her implicit point to put Germany into the light of a society which opposed slavery and colonialism during more or less the last 500 years is highly incoherent, the genocide among the Herero in South-West-Africa at the beginning of the 20th century, lying in the responsibility of german colonialists, is still not reflected in the course plans of ANY german school, nor that there was ever a discussion about reperations towards the Herero (which had been demanded), it is in a sense a ‘cultural stereotype’ in Germany that germans were not involved in global comlonialism and slavery, which directly leads to the myth of having to reflect merely a ‘singular’ dark spot in german history. As well as the genocide towards the Jews developed in a tradition of a discourse of irrationalism, mysticsm and rascism which developed in Germany long before WW2 and was enforced strongly by the anti-enlightment-movement of the end of the 19th century, its involvement into colonialism, slavery and genocide in Africa etc., especially during that period, is without any doubt well-documented.

    The point for our discussion here is that, in spite of the discourse about Nazi-germany and WW2, there was in Germany, in its educational institutions etc. never a real discourse about the way Nazi-germany embedded into the german culture, about the exact way, for instance right-wing ecology, esoteric racism and mysticism embedded into the Nazi-movement and in the way similar views in the leftist, ecologist spheres survived until today. This is the actual reason why we have to discuss a racist headline in a leftist german newspaper today. There are, until today, profound philosophical and metaphysical justifications among german leftists and ecologists for ‘mild forms’ of racism, superiority claims regarding the ‘arian race’ and stereotyped views towards the ‘anglo-american world’ which is largely regarded, among these groups which dominate the editorial board of the ‘taz’, as a world which is governed by principles of materialism, extreme positivism, ‘blind rationalism’ and so on, this is why the American discourse on the racist content of their headlines will not lead to any apologies or changes here in Germany and this is why german descendants as Susanne to a great part ignore that there is and was a fundamental discourse on racism, slavery and offensive acts and communication in the US for centuries, which up to now NEVER existed in Germany on any ‘macroscopic scale’.

  127. [re=10346]AndreasK.[/re]: [i]”… I agree with old man, Susanne’s point to ignore the american discourse on the heritage of slavery and racism and her implicit point to put Germany into the light of a society which opposed slavery and colonialism during more or less the last 500 years is highly incoherent, the genocide among the Herero in South-West-Africa at the beginning of the 20th century, lying in the responsibility of german colonialists, is still not reflected in the course plans of ANY german school, …”[/i]

    Sorry Andreas, that is nonsense. ANY German school? You know that every state in Germany has it’s own curse plans and that they may change during time? To be precise, I learned my lessons in Berlin (West) high school in the late seventies.

  128. well, then show me the german textbook/standard course plan which reflects the genocid among the Herero in a more than insignificant manner, furthermore: is it possibly what you learned at West-berlin high-schools which translates to your clearly well-balanced ‘*we* have HUGE problems with turkish people’-view, did you eventually learn to reflect the situation of people which NEVER were meant to be immigrants due to the lack of any political immigration strategies in Germany and -even more severe- due to the absence of any large-scale agreement about cultural acceptance of ‘difference’ and self-determination of ethnic minorities? Ever lived in Canada?

  129. Andreas, I think I mentioned above the differences between real immigrants from Turkey and the majority of Turkish people living in Germany, especially in Berlin (and the most bigger cities like Hamburg, Frankfurt am Main or in the Ruhr area) and that is what I meant with “we” and “here”. Didn’t my nickname speak for it self?

    And yes, I lived in Canada but only for some weeks when I visited my relatives there. My aunt immigrates in 1961 and she never want to come back when she enter the ship on it’s way to Canada. That is totally different to the situation we have here now. The so called Gastarbeiter (literally guest workers) came with a green card-like, time limited contract but stayed here. OK, they are living here in the 3th generation now and they bring their brides still from Turkey. 90% of the Turks are not immigrants as we understand it, they didn’t speak German very well or the understand not a word.

    But now for the lack of political immigration strategies. At first, Germany is not a classical immigration country. At second, before we asked for workers from Turkey we had lot of guest workers from Italy and Spain. It may sound disrespectful, but they made no problems. If they stayed here they integrated into our community perfectly.
    Maybe our politicians expected the same when they call the Turks?

    Reflecting someones situation, oh well, sure I’m able to do it. I lived the last 13 years in a district of Berlin with circa 80% people from Turkey and we had some friendly neighbors, one hand is enough to count them. All others were not able or willing to understand or to answer when I greet them. Now we had moved to an other district of Berlin and our little community here is OK. Not only Germans, there are also people from Russia, Poland, France, Italy and Turkey. It simply works when the people are willing. They didn’t need any public help to integrate into our society.

  130. I am afraid I have to inform you you apparently did not understood a word I was saying. I could ignore this fact now and could thank you for to have illustrated the basic difference between Germany and the US, especially in the realms of this discussion, but let me add two remarks. First of all, I live in Berlin for myself, I lived for three years in Neukoelln, the ‘80% turks area’ and left it precisely due to people like you (so maybe I was your unfriendly neighbour, well seems I had reasons to be). Secondly: if you say ‘we’ and probably think you mean what you think is supposed to be ‘Germany’, you actually mean precisely the majority of german ascendants still being absorbed in only quite mildly modified forms of perpetuating societies by what they think should be ‘we’ and ‘them’ and ‘our community’. Ever got the idea any society is under constant transformation and you could be the intellectual and cultural drop-out? Ever tried to integrate into the 21st century?

  131. Andreas, I think our discussion became more and more off topic. If you want to argue continuously please send me an email. maulaufmacher at

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