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A new rule being proposed by the Trump administration will shield health care workers — including doctors and EMTs — from being fired for refusing to do their job when doing so would violate their religious beliefs. This could include a variety of appalling things, including refusing to treat gay or transgender patients, refusing to perform medically necessary abortions, refusing to treat patients with HIV or AIDS, refusing to provide artificial insemination to lesbian couples, and any number of other things people might object to on “moral” grounds.

The rule would establish a new division of the HHS civil rights office that would be focused entirely on making sure that health care providers are able to “opt out” of services and procedures that they object to on religious grounds.

Politico reports that this would likely mean we’d revert back to some Bush-era rules that often put patients at risk:

The Obama administration in 2011 rewrote a series of Bush-era protections designed to protect the moral and religious beliefs of health care workers. Opponents of the Bush rules argue that they were too broad and could have allowed workers to opt out of end-of-life care, providing birth control and treatment for HIV and AIDS. For instance, some workers cited their moral objections when denying fertility treatment to lesbian couples or not providing ambulance transportation to a pregnant woman seeking an abortion.

(Why would you take an ambulance to an abortion? If you are having an emergency abortion.)

Republicans are trying to present this as all very reasonable and fair — using an example of someone being forced to perform an abortion against their will, even a lifesaving one — or risk losing their job.

“To be forced under pain of losing one’s job is just outrageous,” Rep. Chris Smith (R-N.J.), co-chairman of the Bipartisan Congressional Pro-Life Caucus, said last week. President Trump is “now looking to remedy that through the HHS mechanism — hasn’t happened yet, but it will.”

Of course, in certain situations, it should absolutely be up to the hospital to provide reasonable accommodations for their worker’s beliefs. If there’s a nurse who does not want to assist with an abortion? Fine, don’t put them in obstetrics. Assign them to neonatal or some other area. That is a reasonable accommodation. At the same time, if what is needed is someone who can provide these services, then there isn’t much reason to keep someone on who won’t. A hospital should not have to be in the position of turning down patients because of your beliefs. If you are hired for a job, you have to do that job. Especially when you refusing to do your job puts someone’s life or well-being at risk.

It is also reasonable, however, to expect that people with certain religious beliefs not get jobs that they can’t do without violating their religious beliefs. A Jehovah’s Witness should probably avoid hematology. An Orthodox Jew should not apply to work at a business that requires working Saturdays. A Scientologist should not go into pharmacology. A Christian Scientist should probably avoid the medical profession altogether. If you religiously object to the existence of transgender people, perhaps a career in the field of gender affirmation surgery is not for you. As an atheist, I should not look to join a convent, regardless of how appealing that may seem on some days.

If you insist upon having a job you cannot do, then the place you work for ought to have the right to employ someone who will. What if it is their religious belief that all patients seeking treatment should get it? Should they be required to violate that?

Patients also ought to be able to have reasonable expectations of their own when it comes to health care providers. Someone calling 911 should not have to “reasonably” expect that they will not be transported to the hospital because the EMT or ambulance driver religiously objects to their existence or the type of help they require. They should not have to sit around and wait for another ambulance to come. That is dangerous.

There are also issues, certainly, in areas with few doctor’s offices or hospitals. If you’re a transgender person and every doctor or hospital near you refuses to provide you with medical care because you happen to be transgender… what are you supposed to do?

There is also the issue of money. Once upon a time, when I first moved to Chicago, I lived right down the street from a hospital. Figuring it was convenient, I made an appointment with a doctor there because I needed a GP and a birth control prescription. WHOOPS! I was told by the doctor that they were not allowed to prescribe birth control there because it was a Catholic hospital — despite the fact that I had actually had a prescription since well before I was sexually active, because I got really bad cramps and it was the only thing that helped. I still had to pay for my appointment. Now, sure — that was on me not knowing that Catholic hospitals don’t give birth control prescriptions. But if there’s no way to know ahead of time that you are not going to be given care, a patient runs the risk of spending money (and possibly time) they don’t have trying to seek that care.

Also money-related? Despite the fact that we don’t have universal health care in this country, a lot of hospitals still receive a lot of tax money. By enacting a law like this, you are asking people to help fund hospitals where they might not get the best care possible because of a health care worker’s religious objection to providing that. There is also, quite frankly, the issue of an employer only paying someone to do only part of their job — which does not seem fair to people who are being paid the same to do the whole entire job.

We don’t allow people who own restaurants to refuse to serve black people — even if their racism is somehow related to their religion. (Yet.) We don’t have these laws to prevent people from being “bad” or “immoral,” we have them because the people going to that restaurant have a right to public accommodation. The idea that this should not also be true for something as necessary as health care is appalling.

[Politico]

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  • Spurning Beer

    I would like to believe that at least in many states, a physician exercising these bullshit rights would be baldly unethical, and in violation of state licensing rules.

    • mardam422

      I shouldn’t be forced to save anyone’s life on “moral” grounds. What the hell kind of “morality” is that? What about my “moral” needs?

    • Spotts1701, Porg Wrangler

      Failure to exercise appropriate care, or failure to provide care to the reasonable standard of an ordinary physician in similar circumstances are grounds for disciplinary action.

  • ManchuCandidate

    A Pandora’s ambulance of stupid waiting to be opened.

  • mardam422

    Maybe they should just save us all the trouble and “opt out” of being a health care professional. Just sayin’.

  • Anna Rompage

    Yes, I refused to drive the man with the “MAGA” hat to the hospital, because it is against my firmly held religious beliefs to show compassion and to help out an obvious, self absorbed, and narcissistic hoofwanking bunglecuck…

    • ariel_gee_398

      As long as avarice is still a sin, I think you’ve got a case.

      • HooverVilles

        Actually I think you are right. Avarice is one of the seven deadly sins in Christianity. Ummm, at least it was prior to Trump. The evangelicals seem to give everything Trump does a pass, soooo.

    • Riley Whodat Venable

      He should pray to be healed. If he was a Good Christian ™ God wouldn’t let him get injured in the first place.
      I mean, what’s the worst that could happen? He dies and goes to Heaven?

  • rosenbomb

    Do no harm*

    *terms and conditions may apply

    • Riley Whodat Venable

      Hey. Hippocrates wasn’t a Christian, so it doesn’t count.

      /s

      • willi0000000

        what’s all this about hippo crates?

        [ nevermind ]

  • Spotts1701, Porg Wrangler

    Yes, let’s allow emergency personnel the right to refuse on moral grounds. That’s not grounds for a reckless endangerment lawsuit against the city or county or anything…

    • Mormos

      taking state money is apparently a growth industry.

      • HooverVilles

        SAD!

    • Skwerl the Taco Hunter

      And also a violation of the 14th Amendment if not by a private company.

    • Miss Dill

      Good point.

  • FukuiSanYesOta

    I have a vision. A vision of a network of hospitals across all the red states. That refuse to supply care to Republicans.

    Wait, that vision sucks because I’m not a sociopathic asshole*

    * some exceptions apply

    • HooverVilles

      It’s against my religion to help CONservatives who commit the Christian sin of avarice.

  • Stable Genius Jack

    You know, it’s against my religious beliefs to give medical attention to anyone who ever wore a MAGA hat.

  • ariel_gee_398

    Imagine if every doctor in NY had a religious objection to providing statins to rich assholes who refuse to eat a fucking salad once in a while…

    • Ryan Denniston
      • h4rr4r

        Where is the lettuce?
        Taco salad has lettuce.

        • ariel_gee_398

          I don’t even see guac or fresh tomatoes. It’s just a pound of cheap ass beef in a fried shell topped with cheese and sour cream.

          • OrdinaryJoe

            Mass produced she’ll, American cheese “product.”

        • wide_stance_hubby

          He has staff to cleanse all vegetables from his food.

        • ScottGoode

          He was afraid of the “Mexican germs”

      • Fartknocker

        I’m going to speculate that the particular bowl of shit illustrated by this photo has fucking Freetos in it. Freetos go in the shitty chili at Sonic, not in a taco salad you fucking moron.

        • ScottGoode

          Wasn’t that his way to celebrate Cinco de Mayo?

          I wish I was joking

        • Jamoche

          I was always suspicious of the Frito Pie in school cafeterias: It’s Thursday. Just how much of that is leftovers?

  • memzilla Ω

    I have strong religious objections to President* Pussgrab McBeefpoots being in the White House. Why can’t my Pastafarian beliefs be accommodated, dammit?

    • maxneanderthal

      I have no billygoats about my person

  • Michael R

    They just keep forgetting to be basic decent human beings . Oopsy .

  • mardam422

    More freedom, right? What could go wrong?

  • Skwerl the Taco Hunter

    Why would you take an ambulance to an abortion? [When you could take your limo?]

    Donald J. Trump

  • Mormos

    you are looking at this the wrong way. The Trump administration is creating an emergent market of suing the state due to refusal of service from emergency workers. It is a growth industry!

  • Cock Blockula

    Wait, because I’m an atheist I would not be able to be hired in a convent? They need to make special accommodation for me then… no mass, no sacrament, no praying, no confessions, and no child abuse. Those are my sincerely held beliefs.

  • jodyleek

    I once had to go into my clinic for morning after contraception. The doctor they assigned to me, once she learned what I wanted, indicated she’d have to bring in a different doctor because she couldn’t provide that service to me because of “reasons”. Whatever the reason, I found it galling that this doctor could make a judgement on my behavior when I had no ability to see her practice records so that I could make a judgement on whether or not I would want her to treat me in the first place.

    • NastyBossetti

      Once many years ago I called my gynecologists office for the morning after pill, and the person who answered the phone told me they wouldn’t prescribe it. So I went to Planned Parenthood. When I was in the gyn’s office a few days later for follow-up, he asked, “Why did you go to Planned Parenthood? Why didn’t you come here?” I was very confused, and I told him what happened. He was *livid*. I like to think he knew exactly who answered the phone (because I did not know), and she was summarily dismissed from that job.

      • jodyleek

        Good grief. I’m glad she got canned but I wonder which clinic she was hired at after that. Because that kind of person is probably going to keep doing the same sort of horrible thing because they think they are some sort of crusader or something. Ugh.

    • kaydenpat

      When I went through a short period without health insurance, I had to visit a clinic where I was lectured to about the dangers of birth control by a Rightwing Doctor. I was disgusted and couldn’t believe it. It’s not hard to keep your personal, religious beliefs out of your work arena. I’m not interested in your dogma. Keep them to yourself.

      • jodyleek

        Oh, my god! I hope you read him the riot act.

    • Miss Dill

      Exactly. If they can judge me, then I’m not going to any doctor who, say, voted for Trump because that probably means racist and anti-women’s choice.
      I guess we’ll have to have questionnaires for all health care personnel so we can make an informed choice.

  • susan_g

    Snowbilly Sarah Palin was right about the death panels.

    • kaydenpat

      As usual, she was projecting what Republicans planned to do on Democrats who never intended to implement them.

  • Rick Hill

    From The trump people there are the known expected awfulnesseses, the unknown knowns expected awfulness, the unknown unknown usefulness….and the long hard slog of wading through them while waiting for Mueller to bring the banhammer down on the lot of them

  • Nephilim

    Tinkle, tinkle little Czar, Putin put you where you are. Continue to divide Americans, you’re doing an excellent job. Putin would be proud. /s

  • “I’m sorry, I can’t treat him.”
    “Why not?”
    “Well, he’s a bit overweight and gluttony is a sin, so religious objection.”
    “He’s having a heart attack. He needs help. What the fuck is wrong with you?”
    “Oooo… yeah, I can’t help you either with your potty mouth. Let me see if Sam will help. Sam?”
    “I can’t come back there to help unless you leave.”
    “Why?”
    “Because of your whore outfit.”
    “Sam, I’m wearing scrubs.”
    “I can see your sexy whore ankles, woman!”
    “Okay, let me see if Dr. Thomas can help. Dr. Thomas?”
    “Are they married or committing fornication before the eyes of the Lord?”
    “Are you married?”
    “No, he’s my boyfriend, what difference does this make?”
    “Tell the sinners to burn in hell, Dolores.”
    “Dr. Thomas says to burn in H. E. Double hockey sticks, sweetie.”

    • willi0000000

      don’t kep us in suspense . . . did the undertaker accept him for burial or cremation?

  • Michael R

    Trey Gowdy doing his job ?

    Rep. Trey Gowdy (R-SC) was particularly aggressive with Bannon and grilled him about his description of Donald Trump Jr.’s meeting with Russian officials in Trump Tower as “treasonous.”

    “Gowdy asked Bannon whether he would consider it treason for somebody close to him to approach Wikileaks’ Julian Assange to get opposition research on Hillary Clinton,” writes Axios reporter Jonathan Swan. “Bannon replied that such a scenario would be bad judgment. Then Gowdy produced emails from a Cambridge Analytica employee — the Trump campaign data firm closely affiliated with Bannon — boasting of just such contacts with Assange.”

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/09798b32b845b1fe974d4f1d825a596b7f52b9ad7f4ccc207c29dccd8962375a.jpg

    • Crank Tango

      Discrediting Bannon? Sounds like his job to me.

    • cmd resistor

      Yeah, I kept re-reading that when I saw it, like, huh? Sure you got the right guy in this article. I am sure there is an evil reason for it, though, although perhaps Bannon was too arrogant even for Gowdy.

  • Manders

    I have objections to the mere idea of a Catholic hospital.

    • Cock Blockula

      Yes, I do also. Also Methodist or any church-affiliated health org. They do not seem to serve women well.

      • Shawn Renee Ernoehazy

        I worked for an OB/GYN affiliated with Catholic Healthcare West/Mercy Health/now Dignity Health; he could not perform a tubal ligation for patients in the hospital, even if they had a scheduled C-Section and had already signed the consent forms, the patient had to wait 6 weeks and have a separate surgery at the free-standing surgical center; we had to schedule procedures like a D&C after a patient had a spontaneous (but incomplete) abortion (aka- miscarriage) at the same surgical facility. He was Catholic, but we did insert IUD’s in the office, provide BCP’s, as well as teach the “rhythm method” if the patient so desired. He no longer is affiliated with that group. We also had lesbian couples who were pregnant by AI! This was back in the 1990’s, before they could even get married…he was a great human and never ever denied care to anyone and would work around the rules of the hospital to provide the best care possible. He also never denied to perform an actual “termination abortion” to a patient requesting one.

    • wide_stance_hubby

      Hubby was once ambulanced to a Catholic hospital (because it was the closest) and that was the only time and place we felt the shade for being a same sex couple. Never again.

      • SDGeoff3

        I was taken to one when I had a heart attack and the first thing they asked was, how much money do you have on you? Seriously.

        • wide_stance_hubby

          Holy fuck. That’s criminal. Glad you could afford to live!

          • SDGeoff3

            And they repeated it once I was admitted. I was enjoying some lovely morphine and the same damn woman came in and asked me again. I told her to kiss my gay white ass and go to hell, just as the cardiologist walked in. You should have seen the monitor!

    • Cogswell – Overlord of Barsoom

      Several years of attempted brainwashing in a Catholic grade school is why I am now a proud atheist.

      • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

        Congratulations on your escape from the cult of guilt.
        Disclaimer: I do love Pope Francis though. He seems like an actual christian.

    • Cornelius Fussbudget

      Religious hospitals are an outdated institution, hanging around from the time when Christians believed in helping the poor. Those were the days.

  • Indiepalin

    Yes, why should neo nazi brain surgeons be required to operate on the Jews?

    • SDGeoff3

      Neo Nazi what? Brain surgeons? Ya gotta be kidding me!

  • Like having a Mormon doctor who keeps baptizing yer dead relatives into the LDS Church before he would give ya yer meds for hallucinations…

  • Scooby

    My personal religious belief requires you to give me a paycheck but I am prohibited from doing any work.

  • kmv1

    I (actually) believe that God wants all people to have the health care they need. If I worked in the hospital accounting office, could I just write off every patient’s delinquent bill?

    • willi0000000

      if you lived in a country that could afford it you wouldn’t have to.

  • Martini A, very stable genius

    Hmm. I might just move to some red state backwood and become an EMT. Then refuse medical treatment to anybody that admits to being a Trump voter, with votes. With the adjusted mortality rates, imagine the shift in voting demographics.

    To be clear to the enforcer of “da rulez,” I’m not that evil. Purely a hypothetical exercise.

    • OutOfOrbit

      if only… heavy sigh

    • FukuiSanYesOta

      Yeah, I had a similar idea downthread and then decided against it because I’m not evil. Unlike a certain administration.

      • OutOfOrbit

        it not evil to allow harmful pests to die unaided

  • Cogswell – Overlord of Barsoom

    I like the way the most immoral asshole to ever walk the face of the earth wants to make ‘moral decisions’ for people.

    Fucking cocksucker!!!

  • Gosala

    Trump administration… reasonable…

    Robyn, I think I’ve found the problem.

  • (((fka_donnie_d))), SOB

    In other news, justice department to open office of Protecting Civil Rights of Cops to Beat and Shoot Black People They Just Know Are Crimers

  • Magma Cardhole jesterpunk

    So if a doctor is like Mo Brooks who believes that good people don’t get sick they can refuse to treat anyone and still get paid for it?

  • Fartknocker

    In my career I was never authorized the option for not providing patient care based on one’s religion or political beliefs. Now I have encountered a few unique parents and guardians who told me I couldn’t care for a child because of religious reasons even though the child had not been issued a Do Not Resuscitate order by a licensed physician. In that case we would explain the reasons why care was required while my other fireifghters (one always being a Paramedic) would continue to assess and evaluate the child or adult under guardian care to see if conditions worsened.

    I had at least 5 instances where a child or adult either ODd on prescription meds or were in the midst of a heart attack, severe asthma or stroke where we were ordered not to provide care because God, Budda, Wiki or whomever said it was against a religion. In every case, we transported and in every case, the person would not have survived without clinical care in a hospital.

    • willi0000000

      obviously there’s only one thing to say

      thank you, keep up the good work!

  • elviouslyqueer

    Robyn, let me introduce you to HB 1523. It’s already legal in Mississippi for folks to do just what Trump is proposing.

    http://www.sunherald.com/news/local/article193504774.html

    • Martini A, very stable genius

      Gross

    • puredog

      That law may be on the books, but is it being challenged?

      • elviouslyqueer

        SCOTUS wouldn’t touch it because they claimed the plaintiffs (dear friends of mine from downstate) didn’t have standing (e.g., nobody had discriminated against them… yet). So we’re waiting.

        • willi0000000

          isn’t that special!

          somebody has to die first.

    • Lord Jim

      I’m no constitutional lawyer, but this just law seems to be a flagrant violation of the 14th amendment. So expect Gorsuch to support it. Fuck.

  • Villago Delenda Est

    I don’t think these people have thought any of this through. It’s going to create a situation where people are asked upon applying for these jobs if they would have “moral objections” to treating some people or performing some procedures, and then be told to take a hike, don’t reapply, if they do.

    • MynameisBlarney

      We can only hope that is what happens.

    • Magma Cardhole jesterpunk

      I doubt that would happen though, the Trump administration would defend the employees because their religious beliefs are being infringed. It would be more likely that you wind up with quite a few people being paid to do nothing.

    • SDGeoff3

      Exactly. Thank you.

  • Paperless Tiger

    The whole of libertarians and fundies is equal to more than the sum of their derp.

  • WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot

    If you are open to the public, you serve the public. Allowing exceptions to this rule is the very definition of that slippery slope the religious right is always talking about. They never see the obvious. Just imagine the howls of outrage the first time a Satanist refuses medical care to a xtian.

    • Villago Delenda Est

      Interestingly enough, this doesn’t come up with Muslims, because they’re supposed to care, as a matter of their faith, to care for all without prejudice.

      • WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot

        Good point. That never even occurred to me!

  • kaydenpat

    It feels like there is something awful going on with this regime every single day. We can’t keep up. If we were to protest every action, we’d be in the streets 24/7. We cannot continue like this for the next three years.

    Resist and do all you can to flip Congress in November. Also go Mueller!!

    • MamaBrown

      Its like a competition. Every day someone comes up with something even more hateful and discriminatory than the day before. I know how you feel.

  • Michael R
    • FukuiSanYesOta
      • SDGeoff3

        If I wore that hat, people would leave me alone.

        • Villago Delenda Est

          If I were the guy to the left, people would avoid me like the plague.

          • SDGeoff3

            Oh I’m having a good belly chuckle on that.

      • MamaBrown

        Where’s Elly May? Down at the cee-ment pond with her critters?

    • jodyleek

      Oh, look, it’s Huckleberry’s pet moron!

  • Lyly Sirivong

    If you refusing to treat someone because of their skin colour, their sexual orientation or identity, you are not a good Christian. Jesus would be fucking ashamed of you.
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/1c4f607928a4a05338bf4640b18ced75e42771bcb24b760d0f4b5f2581fd1911.jpg

    • wide_stance_hubby

      I hope He is taking names.

    • Lord Jim

      “I was a stranger and you took me in.”

      “Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.”

  • Dr. Rrrrrobotnik

    Dear every medical person who ever decided to not treat a type of patient due to religious/personal/moral objections when they came to see you, not beforehand when this situation might have been avoided: Fuck. YOOOOOOUUUUUU.

    People go to doctors and nurses, 99% of the time, because they’re either in pain or are about to be. And your bullshit not only wasted everyone’s time and money, but also lengthened their suffering unnecessarily. You are a shitty healer.

    If doing something or being something is legal, then they can do it when and wherever the fuck they please, and YOU can crawl up an elephant’s ass with your objections.

    • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

      Rahmen!

  • Opalescent Riddles

    Goddamn this whole fucking planet. There’s got to be something better than this.

    • WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot

      I hear many shithole countries are very nice. We are looking at Belize for our retirement.

    • Villago Delenda Est

      It was supposed to be this country, but then “white nationalism” happened and fucked it all up.

    • GlazedHaim

      Fear not, friend. We’re in the process of evolving and weeding out the stupid cavemanimal reflexes that still define even our most sophisticated interactions. Having a bunch of dummies in power is a great way to assess what needs tweaking, like comparing a kid’s drawing of the Sistine Chapel with the original. Needs work! It’s our job to make sure every generation gets to learn from the prior’s mistakes and in order to improve beyond the limits of instinct and basic survival drives that color seemingly banal interactions. These improvements, the achievements of generations of adaptation and cognitive development, will then be stored in a digital archive that will entertain the computers as our genitals are savagely shocked while we’re in storage as fleshy batteries.

      • Opalescent Riddles

        Yeah, you’re right. We can take heart that two steps forward, one step back, we make progress. It sucks nonetheless when we’re in a stepping back phase. I used to find both foreboding and solace in the idea that we’re ultimately food for worms, but now, I welcome our artificially sentient overlords — they’ve got to be better than the semi-sentient ones we have now.

  • Magma Cardhole jesterpunk

    OT but in other shocking news.

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/01/immigrant-friendly-policies-make-most-whites-feel-welcomed-too/

    Immigration policy in the US has grown increasingly contentious, seemingly pitting different communities and ideologies against each other. But a new study suggests that a large majority of Americans appreciate a welcoming policy toward immigrants. Only a specific minority—white conservatives—generally feels otherwise. And the effect isn’t limited to policy, as it influenced whether citizens felt welcome in the place that they lived.

    The research, performed by a collaboration of US-based researchers, focused on New Mexico and Arizona. These states have similar demographics but radically different policies toward immigrants. Arizona has state policies that encourage police to check the immigration status of people they encounter; controversial Arizona sheriff Joe Arpaio ended up in trouble with the court system in part due to how aggressively he pursued this program. New Mexico, by contrast, will provide state IDs and tuition benefits to immigrants regardless of their documentation status.

    • Gosala

      Yep. It’s all about racism.

      First they came for the immigrants…

      (I hope I never write the second line, but in pretty sure how it will go)

    • Lord Jim

      “White conservatives, however, were unique in this study in that they
      were the only group who felt that an immigrant-friendly community was
      hostile to them.”

      There ya have it.

      • Magma Cardhole jesterpunk

        Something something reach out to them because “economic anxiety”.

    • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

      Solution: Deport white conservatives to Russia.

      • Magma Cardhole jesterpunk

        Works for me.

  • Oblios_Cap

    I don’t remember a clause in the oath that allows a doctor to refuse treating anybody.

  • Magma Cardhole jesterpunk

    Republicans will just go back to their old “well you should research the doctor/ hospital before you go” just like they try and do with healthcare costs. You cant shop around when its an emergency and need an ambulance. There are a lot of people who don’t go for preventative care because it isnt “manly” so its just going to be worse.

    • Villago Delenda Est

      Hell, you can’t “shop around” for surgical procedures when no one can tell you, up front, what it will cost. This isn’t like getting your car painted at Earl Schribe.

    • Spotts1701, Porg Wrangler

      And you can’t shop around if these providers are covered by your insurance but those providers aren’t.

      • Magma Cardhole jesterpunk

        That is why you just need to be born rich.

    • wide_stance_hubby

      It’s quite difficult to focus on one’s medical cost analysis spreadsheet in an ambulance. Paramedics always sticking something in your face and such a bumpy ride.

      • Magma Cardhole jesterpunk

        It is even harder when you are not even conscious.

        • wide_stance_hubby

          Well, that’s just a total lack of personal responsibility to shiftlessly nap in a crisis.

    • Ninja0980

      More to the point, why should I have to look around for care or go miles and miles out of my way to appease a bigot?

  • OrG

    So,um… let’s start a nazi punching religion.

  • Oblios_Cap

    These “Christians” seem to believe everything that is 180 degrees opposite of anything Jesus taught.

    • Villago Delenda Est

      Jesus of Nazareth was some damned commie-Muslim hippie, you know.

      • WomanInThePersistence

        He was a good guy. And he didn’t deserve this shit.

        • ScottGoode

          He was a Jew. And everyone knows the Jews killed Christ. So that means he committed suicide so he is damned to spend his eternal life in Hell with God, his father and the Holy Spirit.

          You tell me where I am misrepresenting Christianity ? :)

          • WomanInThePersistence

            Please tell me you were snarking. Because otherwise, this is revolting.

          • ScottGoode

            Of course it was snarking

          • WomanInThePersistence

            My maternal grandmother grew up in Germany. During the 20s and 30s. I’m a mite bit twitchy.

      • Lord Jim

        Nonwhite immigrant born in a shithole country with a history of run-ins with the local authorities.

    • Jeff Ackerman

      I haven’t met many of them that actually read the bible. They believe on faith alone, they don’t let facts interfere in what they want to believe.

  • Poorly Behaved Pérsistanista

    Dear Susan S,
    Ya happy yet?

    • Villago Delenda Est

      “No difference. No difference. No difference.”

      Dammit, Janet. You’re a moran.

  • SDGeoff3

    Not for nothing, but, might the Supreme Court want to weigh in? Oh, wait…

  • JaveyDay

    This is the moral degradation of Christian Evangelicalism and its desire to punish our minds and bodies with their hate of anyone who refuses to follow their broken doctrine and violent dogma of fear and godly retribution. They are a scourge upon this earth and a pestilence upon our collective soul.

    • WomanInThePersistence

      I am no longer a believer. But I do believe that there are decent Christian folks. I hope to meet some of them one day.

      • ScottGoode

        So they are Christian unicorns?

      • OrdinaryJoe

        I sort of like Jesus. I don’t much like Christians.

        • Riley Whodat Venable

          I think that was Ghandi.

          “Jesus just left Chicago,
          And he’s bound for New Orleans…”

          ZZ Top.

          • OrdinaryJoe

            Yes. It was. Only he said with the grace and polish of an Edwardian era barrister who had become the messenger of the end of Imperialism.

      • My wife.

      • Roadstergal

        I know one of them.

      • MynameisBlarney

        Rev. Barber.

        • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

          I loved his speech about taking the country back from the haters.

      • NotReallyHere

        As individuals they can be decent, but en masse they are terrifying.

      • LeighBowery’sLuxuryComedy

        I remind myself of my Appalachian grandmother and her sisters. I truly believe they were pretty decent folk, and I don’t even have much quibble with the Christianity they practiced as best I recall it (aside from not believing there was literally some dude name Jesus H Christ). I assume if they existed, others also must (Catholic Workers?). But they sure do seem scarce as hen’s teeth these days.

        • WomanInThePersistence

          We may be kinfolk. My paternal grandparents came from the Appalachians.

          • LeighBowery’sLuxuryComedy

            Ain’t we all kin back up in the hills? :-D We were pretty well on the edge, northwest Pennsyltucky, to southron Oh-hahyuh.

      • Vel Venturi

        We had Fred Rogers but I hate to think of how he’d consider the state of this country now. Sorry, Fred, we done fucked it all up.

    • BearGHAZI

      In my business I have clients that sometimes open with “I’m a good Christian….” usually seeking special treatment. Raises a thousand red flags with me.

      • dshwa

        My usual rule of thumb is if a person has to tell other people they are something (religious, generous, smart, nice, kind, etc.) they definitely aren’t. Same if they have to tell you they aren’t something (racist, bigoted, stupid) that almost always means they are.

        • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

          Bingo! The con in on.

      • HooverVilles

        Yeah! Had some dealings with a contractor that went to (get this) Messiah College. It was a disaster.

        Also many, many years ago when I was flipping burgers in a restaurant there were servers who were students at the local Baptist College nearby. They were earning money in tips because they needed that money. Funny thing though about these particular servers. When they came in to eat they left religious pamphlets instead of money tips. They stated that the other servers needed these religious pamphlets more than the money.
        UGGGGH!

    • MynameisBlarney

      Or, Talibangelicals.

    • Cat Cafe

      Yes. They are Radicalized Sharia Christians, if not Nazis, and we have to start classifying them as a Hate Cult. THEY ARE A HATE CULT.

      • Riley Whodat Venable

        Christianists. Like Islamists or Zionists.

      • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

        And a death cult.

      • joetheragman

        Yes, except that they do not cut off anyones clitoris, force you to wear a hood, marry you off to your ugly cousin or stone you to death for an accusation of adultery! Besides that, they are just like Islamists!

    • joetheragman

      Anyone who looks at ISIS thinks the same —except that they do not cut off anyones clitoris, force you to wear a hood, marry you off to your ugly cousin or stone you to death for an accusation of adultery! Besides that, they are just like Islamists!

  • wide_stance_hubby

    Thoughts ‘n Prayers for Republicans if I was a doctor.

  • OrdinaryJoe

    Why should a Christian provide treatment for anyone who is not? They are going to hell anyway so why waste the effort. You might as well help them get on their way to their eternal damnation.

    • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

      I don’t care who runs the euthanasia clinics at this point as long as they do a proper and humane job. Stop the world; I want to get off. (Not like that, lol.)

    • LeighBowery’sLuxuryComedy

      Once again, book of Matthew, chapter 25, verses 35-40 (a book missing from modern fundie Bibles. Allegedly). ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

      BTW, this Bible lesson comes to you by way of an atheistic pagan Buddhist.

  • TJ Barke

    How long til the Mike Pence Homosexual Unperson Act?

  • House0fTheBlueLights

    Religious hospitals, which is most of them, already do this, and further do not inform patients of all their options so that patients can make an informed choice to try to seek full care someplace else. In fact, they have been known to mislead patients about what treatment they are getting (for instance not telling them that they will not be tying your tubes during that ceasarian), forcing patients to get additional risky and unnecessary procedures. (splainer by my friend Angela Valavanis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWGkfj6HiL8)

    • Ellie

      Which is why we should work overtime watching out for mergers involving religious and secular hospitals, because the religious hospitals mores will take precedence. I’m very lucky in that there are both hospitals in my area, and both include good care, but not everyone in the country has a choice.

      • House0fTheBlueLights

        The only secular hospitals in my area don’t take any insurance that I can afford, so my choice is Catholic or Lutheran. And the Lutheran one is trying to take over one of the seculars.

        • Ellie

          That sucks. I mean, the care may be fine, as long as you aren’t pregnant, or dying, but it sucks not to have a choice. Are the Lutherans as bad as the USCCB?

          • House0fTheBlueLights

            I don’t actually know what the restrictions are at Lutheran hospitals. But I don’t think I should not have any choice but to support an organized religion.

  • Ninja0980

    Pardon the strong language I’m about to use here but if my husband is denied care, emergency or otherwise because of some asshole’s religious beliefs about same sex couples and he ends up dying, the person that did it will get the living snot beat out of him or her.

  • Doug Langley

    “To be forced under pain of losing one’s job is just outrageous”

    So tell me, Rep Smith, are you this zealous is defending victims of age discrimination, racial discrimination, or gender discrimination?

    • ((( Augustus )))

      No

  • MynameisBlarney

    So…thought this might be of interest to a few folks here.

    Let’s help humiliate these fuckers into oblivion.

    https://twitter.com/BBW_BFF/status/953106797878960128/photo/1

    • Lord Jim

      Favorite response:
      “Because they think the only way they can have rights is if they take
      them from other people. Like they’re Pokémon.

      Someone said that they’re just pissed that they have all the privilege
      of being white males, and they still managed to make nothing of their
      lives.”

  • MamaBrown

    Remember kids, whenever an LGBTQ person is denied healthcare, an angel gets his wings…wait a minute, that’s not right.

  • MynameisBlarney

    Also, too;
    I’d jump-slide over the hood like one of the Duke boys.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BdbPTW2hW1e/?taken-by=greatunclemeatball

  • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

    What do we do about the reverse, though? There’s a lot of patients who demand the right to refuse medical treatment if the attending nurse or physician doesn’t pass muster with their “sincerely-held beliefs.” In Michigan, there was a neo-Nazi who wanted a written guarantee that his child wouldn’t be handled by a black nurse or Jewish doctor (or vice versa). If a patient needing emergency services specifically requests no Jewish/gay/black/whatever paramedics, is the ambulance provider obliged to honor the request of the patient by not sending out that particular paramedic if he/she is Jewish/gay/black/whatever, or would that be grounds for an employee discrimination lawsuit against the ambulance provider? You can’t just not send out the paramedic and let the patient die, otherwise there’ll be a malpractice lawsuit. So… what happens in a case like this? Who takes precedent? And why is everyone a moron?

    • everstar

      Man, if I were a doctor, I would have spontaneously converted to Judaism just to watch that asshole’s head explode.

    • dshwa

      The issue here is that the patient is refusing necessary care, which a patient has the right to do for any reason, even stupid bigoted ones. The only person’s health that patient is endangering is their own.

      When a healthcare provider is refusing care to a patient for bigoted or religious reasons, they’re endangering the patient’s life and health. That’s a violation of their oath as practitioners, as well as contrary to their job description is, and should not be allowed.

      • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

        But in this case, it was the father refusing care for his child. Does he have the right to endanger another human being — especially someone of a vulnerable population like a baby — by making that decision on the baby’s behalf? The infant obviously doesn’t have the capacity to make a decision one way or the other about the demographics of the caregiver. So does the hospital have an obligation to override the father’s beliefs in order to provide the child with proper care, or are they outright prohibited from doing so? Even if the baby would die?

        • Ellie

          If he’s in Idaho, apparently yes.

        • dshwa

          The hospital has to treat the patient, which in this case is the infant. We are also required to report suspected abuse to the state government. In this case, if the father flat out says I’m going to abandon this child if my conditions aren’t met, that would be reportable to the authorities.

  • Bitter Scribe

    Who better to make medical decisions than a bunch of people who think mankind was fashioned out of mud by an omniscient being who lives in the sky and loves us but sends us to hell if we don’t love him back?

  • Riley Whodat Venable

    Can I refuse to treat Fundegelicals?

    • ((( Augustus )))

      I don’t see why not

  • theblackdog

    Personally I think if you’re the type of person who religiously objects to the idea of transgender people, stay the fuck out of the medical field, period. The last thing I ever want to witness is someone refusing to give proper medical care to a patient because “Diety gave them boy/girl parts when they were born and they should stick with that gender only.”

    • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

      Is the rule only going by “religious” beliefs per se, or other wacko beliefs that may or may not be based in a religion? Like anti-vaxers, which unfortunately populate the wingnut far-left (a lot of granola types and Hollywood idiots but also, shockingly, even purportedly educated people like RFK Jr.), not just Christian Science and the like. Is an anti-vaxer nurse going to be permitted to not vaccinate a child or dispense a flu shot even to an adult patient if they request a “beliefs exemption”?

      Also too, how are you even going to know that the doctor or nurse is a wingnut of any variety? Is there going to be a disclosure requirement or is that going to be protected somehow, such that you won’t know you’re getting a Scientologist at the mental health clinic until you get hooked up to the auditing machine?

      • theblackdog

        We’ll have to wait for the wording but I strongly suspect it will be a “religious” exemption, much like how Hobby Lobby claims that because they are a “Christian” organization that they don’t have to provide birth control as a part of their health insurance.

        They won’t write in a disclosure requirement. Basically a patient will have no clue that their doc or nurse has such an objection until they’re being told “Ew, gay/trans/slut pill seeker, GTFO” Heck, it did happen to Robyn because she didn’t realize the hospital was visiting was a Catholic hospital and they didn’t tell her until they denied the service.

  • dshwa

    As a health care worker myself, anyone who goes into the field should damn well know beforehand it is going to mean providing needed care to anyone regardless of your opinion about them or their care. If you’re not willing to provide that care, get the fuck out of the field.

    • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

      I really think there should be some kind of questionnaire or something. If your religious beliefs prohibit you from providing medical care, then as far as I’m concerned you don’t deserve a medical license unless you keep God in the waiting room and out of the exam or operating room.

    • Ellie

      Even caring for obnoxious, obese, balding, orange faced loons?

      • dshwa

        Yup. My job is to treat the patient. Not myself, not the other people providing care, not the family. The patient.
        That means my personal feelings get put aside. My job is to help them, regardless of how I feel about their decisions, both about their treatment decisions and in the rest of their lives. They can be a raging asshole, they can make medical decisions I disagree with, it doesn’t matter, my job is to respect their choices and provide treatment. The end.

        • Ellie

          Would that all health care professionals were like you! Thanks.

        • HooverVilles

          Bravo to you and,
          Second Ellie.

      • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

        Yes.

    • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

      I always thought that as well. if you don’t have compassion for ill humans who need your help, (and that is what they are paying you to do) Why the fuck are you here? BTW the answer was always money.

  • Lefty Wright

    Let’s flip this argument around. As Robyn mentioned, Catholic hospitals do not perform abortions and their clinics do not give contraceptive prescriptions. What if the doctor, PA, or FNP there has religious beliefs that say writing those prescriptions is essential in protecting the woman’s health and fully follows their religious beliefs. Should the Catholic hospital be required to make accommodations for those religious beliefs?

    • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

      I think Hobby Lobby settled that. Corporations are churches now. Don’t like it, find another job. Can’t find another job? Well, that’s because Jesus hates you, so tough shit.

      • Lefty Wright

        But the Bush doctrine says the opposite. If a pharmacist does not want to fill a birth control prescription for any medical condition because of their religious beliefs, REGARDLESS of company policy, they cannot be required to fill them, and cannot be punished for failing to. Even if they refuse to refer the patient to someone who will fill the prescription.

        • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

          So conceivably, at least going by what I understand about this summary of the Bush doctrine, company policy is rendered subordinate to religious belief of the practitioner. Which in theory would mean that if the company policy is to not prescribe birth control but the religious belief of the practitioner says to do so, the religious belief takes precedent over the company policy, and in this case the woman could get her birth control. In practice, however, I’m going to guess that IOKIYAR is the only rule that applies. The goal is to shit on libtards no matter what, because libtards’ interpretation of Jesus is wrong.

          • Lefty Wright

            That was my point. Only the evangelicals can use the religious beliefs doctrine in their opinion. Obviously, thousands of doctors who are Christians prescribe birth control. In their opinion, that is keeping within their religious beliefs of caring for the health of their patients. Prescribing contraceptives is PART of their overall religious beliefs. Doctors who perform abortions have the same religious beliefs. Remember, Dr. Tiller was killed in his church. So it’s just another example of the hypocrisy of the right, and evangelicals in particular.

          • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

            And this is where Canada looks more and more like the real promised land every fucking day. The province of Ontario went so far as to ban protests outside women’s health clinics. Using your religion to discriminate against patients’ healthcare is a violation of the Charter, and that shit isn’t tolerated no matter how many chapter and verse scriptures you quote. If you can’t or won’t do it you give the job over to someone who will. Women’s reproductive choice is settled law and wingnuts are told to summarily STFU. The Jordan Peterson types who don’t think trans people even exist but who base their conclusions on “psychology” rather than religion are likely to get as far as Holocaust deniers and other scum in their goals of denying people’s human equality. They are considered fringe lunatics who have a cult following but nothing that is taken seriously by the courts or Parliament.

            Only something like 40% of Canadians consider religion to be an important part of their lives; most actually consider it to do more harm than good. The rest are primarily concentrated out in the wingnut prairies, and even despite immigration from countries where it is often central to daily life, that number continues to dwindle. Especially because the immigrants are trying to get away from theocratic cultures so they can have freer and better lives in a country that values secular plurality.

          • Mentally Stable Ron

            London’s Victoria Hospital occupies a HUGE tract of land in what is still called South London by old-timers. It’s surrounded by major thoroughfares on three sides and a CN branch line on the fourth. Big lawns all round, for the green space and to allow for future expansion. Fence around that so you know it’s theirs.
            On weekends there’s a bedraggled little group of forced-birthers on one corner who wave their awful amateur signs at passing cars. They look like they’re homeless and were paid to protest. Maybe they are. Point is, they’re easy to see from the road because they get arrested if they even step onto hospital grounds. Now and then they’ll stroll down towards the entrance drive, but I always see security guards around if they do, and they retreat to the corner.
            We don’t take no shit from no forced-birthers.

  • Mavenmaven

    And i guess that means hospital staff can not treat/mistreat Moslems. How about Democrats, can they require a Trump Loyalty signature before they decide to treat?

    • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

      To play devil’s advocate, though: can a male Muslim medical practitioner refuse to treat a woman? Or require her to cover her head or face? Can a Jewish or Muslim veterinarian refuse to treat someone’s pet pig? Or dog? Can a Hindu veterinarian refuse to euthanize Farmer Bob’s sick cow?

      • Yellerduck

        No, silly. You’re missing the part about how it’s only the christians who are being victimized.

        • JesusWasAHippie

          Oh well played, sir or madam.

      • Mavenmaven

        Until now, no. If this passes, who knows?

        • alpacapunchbowl

          I look forward to the inevitable test case wending its way to the Supreme Court.

        • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

          I believe it’s law that hospitals and clinics have to allow the patient to bring along an “advocate” or additional person in the room to provide support or answer questions if the patient gives them authorization to do so. What I want is the right to say that I don’t authorize the doctor or nurse’s imaginary friend to be in the room advising the practitioner about anything pertinent to my care. Physician, heal thyself, and see a psychiatrist if you’re hearing voices in your head.

  • LeighBowery’sLuxuryComedy

    I know its one-a them thar heathenist Buddhis idears, but there’s this notion of Right Livelihood. If your spiritual beliefs run contrary to the job you hold, AND you feel strongly enough about those beliefs, look for another job, end of story. IE vegetarian Buddhists should not apply to work in a slaughterhouse, nor should they expect their employeer to exempt them from killin’ moo-cows should they get the job. (hypothetical example; I think most Buddhists are smart enough not to apply for a job like that in the first place).

    • alpacapunchbowl

      Also a core tenet of common fucking sense.

  • Ellie

    We continue to have people in this “Christian Country” who believe women should strive for three things (and yes, I may have said this before – over the last 25 years):
    1. Virgin Mother
    2. Virgin Martyr
    3. Mother Dying Nobly In Childbirth

    These protections will make the “pro life” Let The Woman Die people very happy.

    • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

      “Virgin mother” directly conflicts with their opposition to IVF, so I don’t know how they’re going to square that circle.

      • Ellie

        A point I suspect they will ignore.

  • marxalot

    Well, I’m too angry about this to be coherent, so I’m going to go do my job for a while.

  • Resistance Ftr PuckStopsHere

    You think this sucks? Wait until all of those home-skooled doctors begin to flood the profession.

    • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

      What’s the billing code for leeches and praying away the gay?

      • WIDTAP

        Apparently this is the true objection to Obamacare, as birth control is covered, but pray the gay away and leeches still need some minimal pseudo-science to be covered. What’s the use of faith healing if you have to put a fig leaf of science on it?

  • Swampay

    Those christians sure care an awful lot about fucking. Why is that?

    • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

      I forget who said it, but there’s a saying that goes something like “Puritans are kept awake at night by the possibility that somewhere, someone is having fun.”

      • Trump’s Potemkin Village

        H.L. Mencken : )

    • Mentally Stable Ron

      Not gettin’ any themselves?

  • Lordpnut

    Yet in most states, an employer can fire you for no reason whatsoever. “Right to work” is a cruel joke – unless you’re a religious zealot.

    • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

      Canada tried to make getting rid of those fascist laws part of the NAFTA negotiations. Obviously the sacrosanct “business community” in the American delegation wasn’t having that commie cuck shit and walked away from the table immediately. NAFTA is going to die because Justin Castreau is a no-good Soviet plant from Havanastan who keeps insisting on barbaric cultural practices like treating workers as human beings. Especially workers who belong to historically marginalized groups like women, PoC and LGBT. The next step will be to invade Canada because they’re taking all are jerbs and Trudeau is a satanic Illuminati bigot who doesn’t believe corporations are people.

      • Lordpnut

        It stands to reason, sheeple.

  • Tony Prost

    why don’t you do your damn job, and then ask Jesus for forgiveness. He is good at that.

    • Trump’s Potemkin Village

      Yeah, many of these SAVED! types actually believe they have a license to act anyway they want to because, after all, they’ve already been SAVED! and nothing they do will allow the bowels of hell to reach them.

    • Sophia

      I like that

  • WIDTAP

    Pilots allowed religious objections to certain (wink, wink) travelers in 3…2…1….

  • Mike Minden

    It amazes me so many “christians” hate moslems when so many of their beliefs/behaviors are indistinguishable.

    • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

      It’s only OK if you’re a white fundagelical.

  • John Lo

    So, I’m an Atheist.
    What if I choose to tattoo on my chest, or anywhere for that matter, “I fucking hate Jesus and the Jews must have had a good reason to nail him to a cross. (That’s if this guy ever existed, which is arguable.)
    Just because these people never outgrew their imaginary friend, like the rest of us at about age 9 or 10, does that mean they don’t have to treat me when I’m ill and tell them their God and Jesus can take a big lick off my shitty asshole?
    BTW, if I don’t believe in their hell, do I still have to go there?

    • WomanInThePersistence

      Ummm….it was the Romans who nailed him to the cross. Because they did that kind of shit.

      • Sophia

        The Jewish authorities and Sanhedrin Elders accused him of Blasphemy and then because they had no authority to execute people they sent him on to Pilate

        • WomanInThePersistence

          Are you really calling Jews “Christ killers”?

          • Sophia

            When authority is threatened, as some of the head honchos thought Jesus was doing, people do horrendous things. The Sanhedrin may not have pounded in the nails but they set the act in process. This doesn’t mean I believe that Jews are Christ killers. That would be like saying Mexicans are rapists.

          • WomanInThePersistence

            I’m walking away.

        • Vacuous Virgina

          I hear pilates exercises can be a killer 🤣🤣🤣

      • sarafina

        Jesus was one of the many ‘messiahs’ of that time*. He just got more attention, so the Romans killed him. Jews didn’t have the authority to do that, since it was a Roman-occupied territory. Kind of like Indian reservations currently.

        *Check out Reza Aslan’s book Zealot.

        • WomanInThePersistence

          Ummmm…bachelor degree in religious studies and philosophy. Thanks for educating me.

          • sarafina

            Pretty sure Reza Aslan has a better handle on this than that.

    • Angela Ruzzo

      I suppose you will be OK as long as the reason you are going to the doctor or the hospital does not involve uncovering your tattoo, but regardless, you ask a valid question. I’m an atheist too, and I was just wondering whether some doctor might refuse to treat me if I revealed that. This is unlikely to happen because one of my core beliefs is that it’s nobody’s business what I believe or don’t believe about religion unless I choose to tell them, which I rarely do, and also I don’t want to know what other people believe about religion, so they really ought to keep their religion to themselves. I have started telling people this, politely, and they are always surprised …

      • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

        They don’t ask what you believe because they want to hear your thoughts on the matter. They just want to bulldoze you with their propaganda.

        • Angela Ruzzo

          Of course. Most people don’t really want to hear your opinion, they just want you to validate their opinion. This is true on major issues such as what direction they want our society to go, and very minor issues such as whether you like their new haircut.

          • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

            Yes. I dislike the whole do you believe Jesus died for your sins, because I have to answer no, I don’t. But I have learned to say quickly but I believe that you believe that.

          • Angela Ruzzo

            I had a friend in college who was very religious, and every time we spoke on the phone she would ask me “How’s your walk with Jesus?” I finally said to her “I think a person’s relationship with god is the most intimate relationship in their life, even more intimate than their relationship with their spouse. How would you feel if every time we talked, I asked you for details about your sex life with your husband? I think you would be offended, wouldn’t you?” She said yes, she would be. Then I said “I feel the same way when people ask me about my most intimate spiritual relationship.” She stopped asking me that question.

          • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

            Yes, that is close to the way I feel embarrassed when they talk that way. It’s like they are whipping their proverbial dick out in a public place. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/df90caaadb72070673cde524138e2db016a60e0c374bae0600a12f72d5cd89eb.png

          • Angela Ruzzo

            When I lived in Louisiana I could barely go a day without someone ending a conversation with “Have a blessed day!” They often added this phrase to the end of their recorded telephone message as well. I found it very annoying to have a relative stranger in a gas station or a bank or a hair salon, someone I do not have a personal relationship with, share their religious point of view in this way. It is a form of proselytising, and I disliked it intensely, but there was no point in saying anything because it would provoke exactly the kind of conversation I do not like to have with strangers. Louisiana is the only place I have ever lived where, if you told someone you were an atheist, they were literally shocked speechless. Some of them did not actually know what an atheist was. Most of them had never met one before and refused to believe it.

          • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

            I think the worst one was I was on the road eating lunch in a Cracker Barrel restaurant in the the foothill part of North Carolina. This very loud very obnoxious white guy was browbeating some poor latino guy talking about god and jesus at the top of his lungs. The kicker for me was when he was done and got the check he told the waitress, “I’ll see you in Heaven.”
            How weird was that ? First I thought it presumptuous to claim to know your gods mind and second to pronounce someone else to be desirous of that peculiar statement.
            I said to Mr Hedo “No thanks”, as he left the room.”

          • Angela Ruzzo

            What a stupid thing to say. I hate assumptions. The absolute worst thing that happened to me when I lived in Louisiana was the constant assumption by white people that I must share their racist viewpoint simply because I was white. I found this to be very offensive – it is, in itself, a form of racism to assume that I have certain opinions simply because of the color of my skin.

            We all make assumptions now and then, and most of the time they are relatively harmless, but to assume that strangers share your core beliefs can be very dangerous and offensive. When it is done deliberately, it is a form of bullying.

            All the devout Christians I know firmly believe they will go straight to heaven after they die, but the Bible does not say this. In fact, it says quite the opposite in the Book of Revelations, where it states that all the dead are lying senseless in their graves and will be “raised up” and judged at the Second Coming of Jesus. There are apparently only a few people in heaven at present, including Jesus and Mary, several prophets, a couple of Apostles, and the Thief On The Cross. But my religious bigot fundamentalist minister uncle, who studied theology in a seminary for 4 years and who ought surely to have read Revelations several times since the Bible is the only book he ever reads, is always talking about his loved ones who are waiting for him in heaven. It is a kind of mass hysteria, if you ask me.

            My father used to say “I don’t want to go to heaven. According to the ministers, all the really interesting people who know how to enjoy life are going to hell, and I’m pretty sure all my friends will be down there.”

          • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

            When I first came to Florida (we wintered her from 1969 on), I also attended school in the less affluent district. The white children assumed we felt the same about the same issues and I simply could not understand why they felt anyone was different based solely on extra amounts of melanin. (Yes, I was a nerd-child)
            I have met good Christians but they seem to be becoming rare as unicorns. It seems to me it is being used as a con and/ or a weapon to control others behavior. (I know it has always had that element. Personally, I automatically distrust anyone who tries to assume authority over me.
            Here is an article that I enjoyed on the bible. It sums up pretty concisely how I feel.
            http://www.newsweek.com/2015/01/02/thats-not-what-bible-says-294018.html

          • Angela Ruzzo

            I do know quite a few people who I would judge to be moderately good practicing Christians. The thing about them is … they don’t talk about it. They just live each day as best they can and don’t inflict their beliefs on anyone. Because they don’t talk about it, you don’t hear about them in news reports.

            That’s a good article in Newsweek. The complete ignorance of most Christians about their own religion frequently astonishes me. And, as Mark Twain said (this is my favorite quote, I post it here often) “It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.”

          • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

            Yes, that is the issue. The let’s call them genuine Christians are as you describe low key, deeds, not words etc.
            Then you have the con men, hustlers, frauds and what I call the look at Me! faction. The Evangelists all seem to fall into this category. As the article reveals they are the Anti-Christ christians. For nothing they teach is accurate.

          • Angela Ruzzo

            All of the Anti-Christians I know very obviously are using religion to demonstrate superiority. They use religion to justify their hatred of everyone who is different from them – blacks, Jews, Catholics, Moslems, Latinos, etc. THEY are the only ones who are saved, everyone else is a miserable sinner. They are bullies. Worse, they are ignorant, bigoted bullies.

            Many humans seem to have an unquenchable need to feel superior to other people. If they don’t have anything real to feel superior about, they will either make up lies about other groups, or else they will invent something they have that nobody else has, like a “true religion.”

            I have an uncle like this. He is a retired fundamentalist minister. The list of people he hates (but he never uses that word) is incredibly long. Jews, Muslims, Catholics, Episcopalians, Buddhists, homosexuals, transgenders, Democrats, Mormons, people with tattoos, black people … I could go on and on. I have never known him to give a penny to anyone other than his immediate family. When I was a little girl, my family was not welcome in his house because we were Catholic, they didn’t even offer us a glass of water or let us use the toilet on the one occasion when we stopped by. But all he talks about is how Jesus saved him … talking about it reduces him to tears.

          • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

            Truthfully I feel that religion has its place in society and without it, those who need structure would fail to thrive. If someone takes comfort in thinking a benign deity favors them and it makes them a better person, that is a desirable outcome. I have noticed many simplistic people in this category.
            But as an analytical person, when I see it used as a weapon to discriminate, as in your case the “Right kind of christian” it is ridiculous and they should be defrocked or expelled in some fashion. Supposedly they are all on the same team.
            And no offense but your uncle sounds mentally ill.

          • Angela Ruzzo

            Religious fanaticism is very possibly a kind of mental illness, but if so it is very widespread. He was a “wild and crazy guy” when he was young, he was in the Navy with a girl in every port, and he liked his drink and to gamble. Then he met Aunt Ella, the proverbial Pentecostal “good woman.” She converted him, and he enrolled in theology college and became a minister. That was 65 years ago, and he didn’t mellow until Aunt Ella died 4 years ago. He’s 91 now … if he lives another 10 years he might morph back into a normal human being.

  • Shrieking Harpy

    What if there were a world where the well-being of everyone was a common goal? (I know, I know. Don’t call Security. I’ll see myself out.)

  • Angela Ruzzo

    I am trying to decide which is worse … doctors and hospitals refusing to treat me because they have a religious objection to my lifestyle, or doctors and hospitals refusing to treat me because I don’t have any money. This is a hard decision, as I think both of these are wrong.

  • Trump’s Potemkin Village

    “any number of other things people might object to on “moral” grounds.”

    Why do other people’s “morals” get to Trump my own healthcare? Oh wait. I think I kinda answered my own question here.

  • Khavrinen

    Remind me again: When exactly did we decide that the definition of “being moral” was going to be “taking great pleasure in fucking people over”? Because I seem to have missed the memo.

    • Lefty Wright

      Well, obviously only right wing evangelicals have the right to determine morality. God talks to them. No memo needed. It’s as obvious as the nose on your face.

      • HooverVilles

        As an added bonus they have that get out of hell free belief in jeebus card.
        Nothing like acting like an awful person with no consequences.
        That’s compassionate CONservatism at work.

    • sarafina

      Republicans pull that out whenever they can.

  • Shan

    Also related to money: when you have health insurance that’s contracted through a Catholic hospital network, your insurance covers certain things that Catholic hospitals won’t provide (abortion, sterilization, Plan B if you’ve been raped). But you don’t get any sort of discount on your premiums or any other sort of compensation for having to pay to get them out of your insurance network. So, basically, you’re paying the same price for substandard medical care another network would have provided for the same price or you’re paying thousands out of pocket to get what you could have received in your network at a non-Catholic hospital.

    • Lefty Wright

      As I mentioned earlier, I would like to see a doctor at a catholic hospital clinic demand the right to prescribe contraceptives on the claim her religious beliefs demand she treat patients to the best of her ability. And demand accommodations for her sincerely held religious beliefs.

      • Shan

        I’d like to see that, too. But the UCCB sets the standards of what goes on in Catholic hospitals. The employment contracts for physicians probably contain language that allows them to be fired for not complying.

      • HooverVilles

        Yes!

    • HooverVilles

      Compassionate CONservative rights take precedence over all others, end of story. They make that perfectly clear.
      Sigh!

  • Pazuzu75

    The “morality” of conservatives: they want to make it so you can be fired for being an LGBT person but not for letting one die.

    • Sashineb

      Those religious fuckwits are DISGUSTING. They are nothing other than hateful liars who tell people what they “need” to be “saved”, just so they can get $$$$ and power. And now they have the power thanks to scaring people into believing that the Rump was the only solution.

    • HarpyLibtart

      Yep, I had to pretty much cut my mother off for her hypocritcal religious bullshit…for example;

      My mother: “My job as a chaplain is to be so full of God’s love that I can just bump into people and spill it all over them!”
      (Gross mom, you work with kids, please stop saying that)

      Also my mother: “Oh, well if the Palestinian people didn’t want their schools and houses bombed with their children inside, they shouldn’t be supporting terrorists”
      (You can’t lecture me about how I should be embracing God’s love and also endorse child murder, WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK MOTHER)

      I just…I can’t anymore.
      So now I try to avoid her as much as possible, because I know she was a good mother and she loves me and I don’t want her to realise I have zero respect for her as a person now – it seriously feels kind of like she died and got replaced by this pious caricature of the person she was when she found religion.

  • Jonny On Maui

    It’s far past the time. No more coddling of the superstitious. Just because you believe something doesn’t make it true.

    Just be honest about your hate. Don’t blame it on non-existent sky fairies.

    • WomanInThePersistence

      *raises glass to you and Ms. MLG.* And m not a believer. But my Mom is. And i respect her. So much.

  • sarafina

    So, if the Sutherland Springs shooter had not died that day, only been badly wounded, would TX medical practitioners be absolved it the shooter died because no one’s religion would allow them to help him? If a child molester on trial/in prison has a heart attack, will people not have to attempt to recussitate, because that’s what their version of Jesus says?

  • Last Hussar

    Find a religion that considered your job a sin
    Convert.
    Sit at home while they have to pay you.

  • Poly_Ester

    Its just a small spelling change. The Hippocratic oath becomes the hypocritic oath, nothing to worry about.

  • data_ninja

    I am assuming they will treat everyone, but there will be an out-of-religious-network premium to pay. Which will be non-taxed and collected by the hospitals, probably via a wicker basket.

  • Robyn Ryan

    Misogyny is a different sort of Jim Crow.
    Still unequal.
    Ratify the Equal Rights Amendment.
    End gender discrimination.

    • CriticalDragon1177

      Thankfully it could be argued that we’re slowly getting closer and closer to ending legal gender discrimination, even without the Equal Rights Amendment. Just think about Obergefell V Hodges.

    • HooverVilles

      THIS!!!

    • joetheragman

      I cannot wait to see women drafted into the Infantry with the war in Korea

  • Slinger

    $trump, so busy sucking Evangelical ass, is hoping they will save his 239+ pounds ass and re-elect him.

  • Delu

    Yeah more of this religious rights bullshit.

    This was one of the slippery slope scenarios that was put out when the Hobby Lobby case rolled around. What if this leads to people like medical staff not wanting to treat someone because of their religious beliefs?

    And this was considered a far out and ridiculous “it can’t and or won’t possibly happen” scenario though technically the possibility was there.

    Well that slope is looking mighty slippery these days and to no real surprise either. As far as the religious rights bullshit goes Hobby Lobby was just the beginning.

    I wish I was wrong about this back then, but alas.

    • Mike Minden

      Money = speech, corporations are people, the 2nd amendment only applies to white people, and the 1st amendment only applies to christians. Any questions?

      • Delu

        Yes.

        How long is this shit going to last?

        • HooverVilles

          Too long!

          • A Monkfish in Anemone

            God damn want to move to Candidia but too cold.

      • HooverVilles

        IOKiffYAR

  • Mike Minden

    I’m just waiting for the first time a moslem Dr refuses to treat a Jewish patient (or a woman, or whoever). I really want to see these arseholes tap-dance their way out of that!

    • HooverVilles

      This!

  • I would absolutely opt out of all the blood stuff.

    • CriticalDragon1177

      Than you wouldn’t be a very good doctor would you?

      • Oh, I’d be the greatest, you’ve never seen a doctor as good as I would be. Just none of the icky bodily fluids, because religion,.

  • Squeegee

    I dated a woman who was an EMT who was a complete germaphobe and always freaking out about risks associated with the job
    You would think if that was your phobia you wouldn’t be doing it

    • Hesavebread!

      The job may have caused it.

      • Squeegee

        I guess what always struck me is she didn’t seem to have much empathy for the victims she was treating

  • Jezzam

    Should I wear a medical alert bracelet that says “gay atheist” or do you think a pink armband with humanist caricature will suffice? I wouldn’t want to trip, fall, lose consciousness and accidently offend anyone’s religious freedom

  • Dept. of Space Tacos

    we paralegals have the same duty to our clients that lawyers do…That means if I worked as public defender, I would have to square myself with being ethically required to help, say, an admitted child molestor try to beat a charge and gain his freedom.

    It’s something I haven’t been able to square myself with, so I don’t work for a public defender. Other PDs do the job and it’s a noble thing that demonstrates a lot of courage and principle.

    This, this is just nuts. Clients can always find another attorney. But if the closest medical provider doesn’t wanna stop the bleeding cause you’re wearing a rainbow flag shirt, that’s some fucked up shit and they don’t belong in medicine.

    • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

      Yes, an amazing number of nurses are hyper-religious. I never cared one way or another, but one day was told that I had had told an adult humor joke to one of the most uptight religious nurses in the OR. Disclaimer: She had asked me why I was laughing while in the break room. I did wonder why no one else wanted to repeat the joke to her.

      • Dept. of Space Tacos

        long bad-memory story – but my late dad was in admin at a hospital – when he was in really bad shape following some radical surgery, some nutbag he worked with came into the ICU and started flapping our comes about the (very difficult) medical decisions that needed to be made.

        I’m surprised the ole TX momma didn’t clock that bitch. (And i genuinely genuinely despise the b word, NEVER say it to a woman’s face, and don’t even really like to call any woman that – so you can see how pissed off we were).

        • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

          How horrible, this is why I despise the zealots.

          • Dept. of Space Tacos

            aye, we were deciding on an whether to do a certain intervention. My old man was unconscious and hadn’t left any directives on the subject, so we struggled.

            It’s why I’m a HUGE proponent of telling people to suck it up, sit down with their families, and have some serious conversations about “What I want if [x] should happen to me.” It can be tough, but trying to figure what your father/brother/spouse/mother/adult child would want – wishing you knew what they want – is a lot damn harder.

          • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

            It adds to the survivor’s guilt that is for sure. For me it boils down to quality of life. But YMMV.

          • Dept. of Space Tacos

            as long as the decision is theirs i’m fine – it was not knowing if he would have wanted x or y; I would have supported him either way!

          • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

            It should, of course, always be theirs.

          • HazooToo

            That was the hardest conversation to ever have, including the “I want a divorce” conversation. But it was at least a relief to find that I knew my Mom as well as I thought I did, and that if the decision had to be made, it would be made with her consent.

          • Dept. of Space Tacos

            good on ya.

            my wills and trusts prof said its a hard thing to talk about (death and paperwork) and so he tried to make it fun…but pointed out how important it was.

            Also, my family is just weird. Dad had ALWAYS been clear he wanted DNR – but this was whether to give him a pacemaker. Since then, mom and I have talked about it, with humor and mutual respect and love, and, at least for us, it seems to have taken the power out of it the taboo over talking about it.

            Anyway, encourage people to do it! It’s hard now, but harder in the moment with no clear direction.

  • Peripatetic Poltroon

    I’d have to disagree Robin. You should not have to keep track of which providers will refuse which services. That’s their damn problem. You should not have been charged for the appointment unless other services were provided.

    • javadavis

      Yes – if you got a reservation at a restaurant but then discovered they had an unstated rule that you have to wear 3″ heels and have a straw purse in order to order a meal, are you still required to pay for your meal? No! Even if the weird dress requirement is listed in the fine print of their menu, or if those familiar with the restaurant owners are aware of their rules you would still not be required to pay for something you never receive.

  • Zyxomma

    I’m glad I live in NYC when I read what a shithole this maladministration is trying to create of the country in which I was born.

    • LiberalANDProud

      1000 Upfists. Which you can also get in NYC for the right price.

  • Begin Anew Day

    You don’t get this kind of shit when dealing with the cult of Crom. We don’t give a shit about anything except getting the job done.

    • JCfromNC

      Same with Sithrak (h/t Oglaf). Sithrak doesn’t give a shit about you or your beliefs. You’re going to be tortured throughout eternity either way.

      ETA: It only took me two edits to get all the typos out of this. /shakes head

  • Vel Venturi

    Great news for all the not-sufficiently-Christianist-approved people living in rural areas or other areas with limited healthcare options.

  • ralphteb

    Belief or faith should stop at your own or the churches front door, you don’t work for god .

  • pixeloid

    “To be forced under pain of losing one’s job is just outrageous,”

    Not nearly as outrageous as dying because some fanatical religious bigot refuses to do their job. Not only should they be fired, but they should be held legally liable for any adverse effects due to their refusal to treat a patient.

    • MC Planck

      “To be forced to do their jobs or lose their jobs is just outrageous – ” a sentiment every Republican congressperson can empathize with.

      • HooverVilles

        No, it’s not empathy. They don’t have that. It’s greed and avarice and power, pure and simple. Anything that gets in the way of those is simply not allowed.

    • HooverVilles

      THIS

    • “To be forced under pain of losing one’s job is just outrageous,”

      Right – legislators shouldn’t be forced to follow the law. Police shouldn’t be forced to enforce the law. Teachers shouldn’t have to teach. And I was a network admin for over 20 years. Do you know how many computers I had to look at?

      Making companies hire people who won’t do the work is totally OK, of course. It’s not like we’re making them hire gays or blacks or Muslims.

  • FZsdaughter

    The U.S. is going downhill faster than anyone could’ve imagined. #ShitholeCountry

  • RandomNameAllocated

    Certainly something when Hippocrates (a pagan! a heathen! quite possibly a heathen pagan!) had more Christian compassion than these so-called Christians.

    Its time like these I really would like there to be the pearly gates scenario with St Peter going : what part of “all God’s children” did you not understand? Down the fiery escalator with you.

  • HooverVilles

    There does not seem to be any limit to how repugnant the Greedy Obstructionist Tea Patriarchs can get.

  • norcalOG

    This is all biblical. Jesus, remember, refused to have anything to do with lepers, or the unclean, or the dead.
    His motto still resonates: Be clean. Be white. Be pure.

    • HooverVilles

      That’s tricky for the wimmens as they are “unclean” once a month.

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