SHARE

Yesterday, the moment we have all been eagerly anticipating finally arrived! Andrew Sullivan’s hot take on The Reckoning and the #MeToo movement.

Surprise! He is on team “OH MY GOD THIS IS A MORAL PANIC AND FEMINISTS ARE VICTORIAN MCARTHYISTS WHO HATE CLUMSY FLIRTING!”

A month or so ago, a friend and I mulled over when exactly the backlash to the then-peaking #MeToo moral panic would set in. Mid-January, we guessed, and sure enough here we are.

Well, here you are, anyway, Andrew Sullivan.

While initially praising the “beginnings” of the Reckoning, with “actual abusers” like Bill O’Reilly, Weinstein and Roger Ailes facing consequences for their behavior, the majority of Sullivan’s screed is dedicating to fretting that the movement itself has gone “too far” and fearing what will happen if it goes further. Will we burn men at the stake for simply asking a woman what her sign is? Probably!

Sullivan looks to compare The Reckoning to the Red Scare and McCarthyism, as well as other moral panics, a comparison many have attempted to make before. This only makes sense if you literally do not know anything about any of these things other than that they involve people being accused of stuff.

Allow me to make some things very clear here. The women in the Salem Witch trials were not actually witches. The McMartins were not actually Satanists who were molesting children in underground tunnels beneath their daycare. In the case of the Red Scare? Sure, some of those people may have actually been Communists or Communist “sympathizers” — but there are some pretty significant issues with that comparison as well. The absurd thing about the Red Scare is that it was ridiculous in the first place to be blacklisting people for being Communists. We cannot say the same, really, about men who sexually harass women.

There is a world of difference between Elia Kazan and others “naming names” of their co-workers before the House Un-American Activities Committee and women sharing their personal experiences being sexually harassed or assaulted at work with other women in their same industry.

But here’s his take, bolding mine.

I’ve read the list — as almost everyone in media has. I felt like taking a shower afterward. It includes charges that have absolutely nothing to do with workplace harassment. Someone is accused of “creepy DMs or texts especially when drunk,” “weird lunch dates,” or “being handsy — at the very least — with women at parties.” One man is accused of “secretly removing condom during sex,” with no claim of workplace misconduct at all. Another is damned for “flirting,” another for taking “credit for ideas of women of color,” another for “multiple employee affairs, inappropriate conversation, in general a huge disgusting sleaze ball.” And this chorus of minor offenses is on the same list as brutal rapes, physical assaults, brazen threats, unspeakable cruelty, violence, and misogyny. But hey, take it all with a grain of salt!

First of all — removing a condom during sex is a form of sexual assault. If consent to sex was given provided a condom be used, then removing the condom nullifies that consent. Our courts are just now getting caught up to this, but it’s been illegal in many other countries for quite some time now. In fact, it was the sex crime that Sweden was investigating Julian Assange for.

To look at this list and go “Look at these women! Saying sending creepy DMs is the same thing as rape!” is absolutely the wrong take here. What Sullivan is ignoring is that all of these things are things that it is absolutely reasonable for women to want to warn other women about. Not every woman is going to go “OH, that guy known for being handsy and sending creepy DMs? I don’t want to work with him then!” — but some will. Knowing that in advance can help those women make informed decisions about who they would like to work with. These aren’t bad things to know and be aware of — just like any other thing that might make a place an unpleasant work environment.

The men who do these things do them because they have long believed they could rely on the silence of the women they did them to. Most of them would not have done these things if they thought there was any chance those actions would come to light. It is not a bad thing that men may now have to think “Gee, I’d love to put my hand on my co-worker’s boob, but it would probably be bad for my reputation if I did.”

This list was meant to be circulated privately among women in the industry. It was not meant to be a list of men that anyone was demanding be fired — as you may know, the list has not lead to any mass firings of clumsily flirty men anyway. It was not intended to be a list of things that had been proven to occur in a court of law. It was simply a whisper network writ large and made more available to women who might not have otherwise had the connections to get that information from those already “in the know.”

Unlike those going fishing for commies, women have not had the backing of any kind of government entity. All we have is each other.

What I’d like to know is what it is, exactly, that Andrew Sullivan and others like him think would be a better solution. Would he find it preferable if women would simply accept and shut up about any untoward behavior that cannot be prosecuted in a court of law? Should women check with him first to see if something is bad enough to warn other women about?

As of right now, there simply isn’t a viable alternative to the way things are being handled — basically all we can do is take in the information (or avoid taking it in!) and decide for ourselves whether or not we find it problematic or believable. If there is, I’m sure we’d all be open to hearing it.

[NYMag]

Wonkette is 100% funded by beautiful and talented readers like you!

$
Donate with CCDonate with CC
  • SDGeoff3

    Is he trying to be relevant, or is it a money thing?

    • Victoria Ricola

      All of it, Katie.

    • Bigly smart jesterpunk

      Yes

  • BadExampleMan

    Fucking Sully. How can we miss you when you won’t hop on your horse and ride away bareback?

    • Bill Diaz

      Think that ‘riding bareback’ was one of the issues that the ignorant Mr Sullivan was distraught about..

      Have a great day!

  • WiscoJoe

    Hate to be the one to point this out, but Andrew Sullivan might just have a personal blind spot when it comes to the subject of unprotected sex… [edit: I’m already ashamed of this comment. Consensual unprotected sex is between the consenting. Consent. CONSENT, motherfuckers.)

  • vukojebina_MΩment

    Pro tip: NEVER remove a condom during sex on the job.
    /lesson learned

  • Good_Gawd_Yall

    Who?

    • OutOfOrbit

      familiar but cannut place it

    • Bub the very stable zombie

      Who cares?

  • Victoria Ricola

    Like anyone on Earth was asking what Andrew Sullivan thinks about #metoo.

    But keep educating your dumbfuck readers that slipping off the condom won’t lead them down a path of lawsuits and ruined lives in a post-Weinstein world, assholeface.

  • Daniel

    He looks like I imagine Toby Young’s ego tells him he looks.

  • TJ Barke

    Right libertardian douche has thoughts, they are pointless, like his political philosophy.

  • Bill D. Burger

    Sullivan’s relevance ended long ago, and yet I clearly remember after the GOP took over Congress, his remark on the modern Republican ‘party’:

    ” There is effectively no Republican party any more. There is a radical movement to destroy the modern American state and eviscerate its institutions in favor of restoring a mythical, elysian, majority-white, nineteenth-century past. ”

    There, he was spot on. Here….NOPE!

  • kareemachan

    Well, I think the guyz should NOT be punished for having such a tiny penis that their condoms fall off……

  • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

    Sullivan is still a Republican, right? He knows that Pence wants to “hang ’em all,” doesn’t he? I mean it was conservatives who put gay people or even those suspected of being gay on the blacklist as “communists,” so why the hell does he bring up McCarthy? I really don’t understand the mindset of kapos who belong to the Leopards Eating Faces coalition. Unfortunately, they are legion; they vote, and they are influential and useful to The Party. Maybe he should be concerned about conservatives blacklisting LGBT people for consensual activity or even suspected LGBT identity (which certainly looks to be on the horizon if it isn’t a thing already), instead of mansplaining women’s whisper networks about garbage men of various degrees of garbage-ness.

    • Iam Reading

      Log Cabin Republicans should commit mass suicide.

      • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

        Well, technically they are, with actual votes.

        For the “hang ’em all” party.

  • you are irrelevant, Sullivan. oh, and fuck you.

  • Ryan Denniston

    “Would he find it preferable if women would simply accept and shut up
    about any untoward behavior that cannot be prosecuted in a court of
    law? Should women check with him first to see if something is bad enough
    to warn other women about?”

    Why yes. Yes, that is exactly what he thinks, why do you ask?

    • Covfefe

      Well. If Dick Durbin had just honored the rules of private conversation and kept his mouth shut, we wouldn’t be talking about international relations with African countries. So it’s not just women who should accept and shut up.

  • Ryan Denniston

    Didn’t Andrew Sullivan decide to no longer blog at some point? That was the correct call there.

  • Ellie

    I wonder if Mr. Obama would lend me his Handy Acme Time machine, so I could go back to the days of my yoot, and burn men at the stake for asking, “What’s your sign?” It was “No Parking,” but that’s beside the point.

  • Bub the very stable zombie
    • natoslug

      She was far too kind to Burns, letting him talk over her for so long. I would have cut his mic and either moved on, or let him know he would be allowed to speak only if he were capable of basic courtesy.

  • msanthropesmr

    The women in the Salem Witch trials were not actually witches

    Bullshit. They turned me into a newt.

  • memzilla Ω

    … the then-peaking #MeToo moral panic…

    Denigrating #MeToo as a “moral panic” tells me errrrrrrrything I need to know about Andrew Sullivan’s article. This is thee kind of person who would read Actual Hate Speech and call it a “moral panic” because of its tortured grammar and bad punctuation.

    • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

      No Grammar Nazi… no Grammar Nazi… you’re the Grammar Nazi…

  • Iam Reading

    I don’t really know much about Andrew Sullivan. I can usually see him on Bill Maher show and wonder why Mar has him on because he says quite a number of dumb things. To my mind he seems like one of those men who happen to be gay but are also highly misogynistic and not at all in sympathy with the plate of women despite the fact that both women and gay men have been marginalized. Therefore I tend to think of him as a giant piece of shit. Maybe I’m wrong

    • Bigly smart jesterpunk

      Bill Mahar also has Ann Coulter on all the time, he is a pretty shitty guy who has shitty people on.

      • Bill Diaz

        He used to bang Ann Coulter, which might have something to do with it…

        I guess even hideous beasts from your darkest nightmares need love too.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgSBhlw-o9E

        Have a great day!

        • Bigly smart jesterpunk

          They have a FWB relationship.

          • Iam Reading

            Eeeeew, just eeeew.

          • Bill Diaz

            The only benefit I can think of from having sex with Anne Coulter is the knowledge it would be over at some point, so that isnt a persuasive argument to me.

            Have a great day!

          • Daniel

            I imagine she provides a socially acceptable outlet for necrophiliac fantasies.

          • FlownΩver

            Or for anyone with an afghan hound fetish.

          • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

            Bwahahaha.

          • FlownΩver

            Fucking White Bitch?

            I know it’s bad, bad language. I’d be hard pressed to think of anyone but Coulter I’d say it about.

            [I can think of half a dozen I’d think it about, though. Naughty, naughty FlownΩver!]

          • Bigly smart jesterpunk

            Friends with benefits, they are fucking but dont want to call it a booty call or a relationship.

          • FlownΩver

            FΩ, even though A Old, knows the term. My Compulsive Snark Disorder (or CSD) took over for a minute.

        • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

          I think they’re still FWB, which means Maher is probably the only friend that Coultergeist actually has. Used to fool around with DINO Dahling Arianna Huffington also too.

    • Petunia Cat

      He’s a conservative. And one of these magazine writers who tries to make it seem like what he does is more than punditry, but it isn’t. During George W he looked good, because he criticized that government. Just this summer he published something that was a big apologetics for racism. To do with like success and comparing African Americans to Asian Americans. Guess who got a “must do better” grade. I didn’t read it I just read that’s about it. 🤢

  • Bill Diaz

    I despise this idiot Sullivan. First of all, conditional consent is every woman’s (or men for that matter) right and to be unaware of that fact is willful ignorance. A woman can withdraw consent at any time and for any reason and the absence of a prophylactic barrier is CLEARLY an issue that might result in such a retraction.

    Also, the simple rule is, dont shit where you eat. If you are going to flirt or ask someone out, it should be outside of what you (or they) do for a living. I am the worst flirter in the world, but a great guy, so it is most likely that a woman would ask me out, rather than vice versa. I had a great time in college being a tutor for biology and chemistry. I am a great guy, funny, interesting, a good conversationalist and dont feel that being alone with a woman is permission to be a creep.

    I realize it is a different world now and I have no experience with dating sites, Tinder or any of that crap, but back in the olden days, the secret used to be being a decent person and treating women as people rather than a life support system for ‘bikini bits’.

    I know that still works, my son had young ladies asking him out because he cooks, is an athlete and has a twin sister who would kick his stupid butt if he was a jerk. It seems simple, if you want someone to be with you, then the first step is to be someone that your target audience might want to be around.

    Have a great day!

  • Hemp Dogbane

    Since I had a lifetime membership at The Dish (yeah, I know, that meant the lifetime of the publication, not my lifetime – goddamn you Rolling Stone, No Depression, several others) I get an email link from Andrew of his musings. I read one or two when he started up again and that was enough. The one yesterday said “it’s time to resist the excesses of #MeToo” and I thought “No, Sully, if I don’t care what you think about everything else I sure as hell don’t want your opinion on MeToo.”
    He thinks all of life is a big night at the debating club. But I miss the aggregation at The Dish.

  • Angela Ruzzo

    The whole problem here is that a lot of men don’t seem to understand the difference between a compliment, a flirtatious remark, and sexual harassment. They also don’t seem to be able to differentiate between an appropriate setting for compliments and flirtatious remarks, and inappropriate settings for same. Telling a woman “You look very nice today” is OK in most situations, but telling a woman “That’s a hot outfit, you look sexy” might be OK in a bar, but it is not appropriate at work, or in a job interview, or when talking to a teenage babysitter or your next-door-neighbor’s 8-yr-old daughter. Men also don’t seem to understand that you do NOT touch any part of another person’s body other than their hands without their expressly-stated permission.

    This is not rocket science, it’s common courtesy. I had pretty much mastered these skills by the time I was 7. I am sick and tired of hearing that men are confused about it. I am sick and tired of hearing that men are totally incapable of controlling what comes out of their mouth or where their hands are or what their dicks want. They cannot claim any type of superiority in any sphere of life if they can’t learn basic interpersonal etiquette.

    • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

      Do they teach anything in kindergarten anymore? Does kindergarten even exist in this country?

      • Angela Ruzzo

        When I was little, kindergarten was a half-day affair, but I understand that it is now a day-long program almost everywhere. I don’t know what they teach them, but they have twice as much time to teach them stuff and this doesn’t seem to be working.

        • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

          I think they’re teaching them how to use iPads and memorize tests now. Social-emotional learning got thrown out as sissy Eurotrash stuff that gets in the way of “instructional time.” (AKA generating profits for test-manufacturers and Apple)

          • Angela Ruzzo

            A retired 1st grade teacher friend of mine says that kindergarten’s purpose was to teach the kids how to sit still in class and pay attention to the teacher, and that little boys seemed to have a harder time learning how to do this than little girls. She said it took her 4 months to get some of the boys to sit still in her 1st grade class and focus on one task at a time, even after they had gone through a year of full-time kindergarten, so either they aren’t doing a very good job in kindergarten, or else a lot of little boys have inherent learning difficulties. This is her opinion, not mine, as I have no experience with children.

          • darnyoudarnyoutoheck

            Or maybe we are expecting kids, often boys, to do things they are not developmentally ready for.

          • Angela Ruzzo

            That’s very possible. And we also need to factor in the home environment, which teachers might know nothing about.

            I am an atheist, but I often thought that if I had had children, I would have seriously considered joining a church somewhere that I could tolerate (perhaps the Quakers?) just so I could take my children to weekly services on a regular basis, because going to church every Sunday when I was little definitely taught me how to sit still and behave for an hour. We had to sit like little statues and there was zero tolerance for misbehavior. At the time, I really HATED going to church because of this, but I did learn how to sit still and go inside my head and entertain myself, which is a valuable skill that came in handy during business meetings.

        • SisterArtemis

          Gotta say, kindergarten for my kid and my grandkid was a great thing – orientation to working in groups, following directions, getting used to the order of the school day, etc., as well as early reading and comprehension skills (both assessing them, and learning to use them in context). Made the transition to first grade pretty smooth.

          That said, I’m living in liberal-land Eugene, Oregon, where schools are funded, if not well, then at least adequately, and good teachers are readily available.

          • Angela Ruzzo

            My retired teacher friend lives in Florida. Enough said.

    • Petunia Cat

      Hear, hear! For a bazillion examples of the not for workplace remarks look no further than this endless thread of shitty and creepy Chris Matthews comments.
      https://mobile.twitter.com/MattGertz/status/951936341989888001

      • (((fka_donnie_d))), SOB

        For all their strengths, MSNBC seems to share the prevailing addiciton to mediocre white assholes. They put the appropriately-monikered Chuck Todd on MTP’s old show and couldn’t even be bothered to rename it.

        • Petunia Cat

          Chuck Todd. 😂😂🤢

    • (((fka_donnie_d))), SOB

      Clearly we are dealing with this shit because common courtesly, like common sense, ain’t so common.

      • Angela Ruzzo

        Honestly, sometimes I think that 80% of men have ADHD or some degree of Autism, or both. I have read articles in which men say women aren’t any good at multi-tasking, which is bullshit. All the married women I know or ever knew were working full time, bearing and raising children, cooking meals, doing laundry and managing the family budget, while their husbands couldn’t seem to remember that Monday was trash day, even though Monday had been trash day for 20 years. Please notice that I said 80%, not 100%.

        • (((fka_donnie_d))), SOB

          No, it’s just entitlement. Most of the shit I _used_ to get up to, I started doing because I saw another man do it and nobody called him on it.

          • Angela Ruzzo

            Does that mean you were not taught when you were young to have a strong internal moral compass, but at some point you developed one on your own? This is not a criticism, I’m just curious about how people learn things.

          • (((fka_donnie_d))), SOB

            As I mentioned before, my father was… not OK. Few things he taught me had dick-all to do with morality, for reasons that became obvious with age. One of the reasons I like it here so much, fills in any blanks I still have. But, we do agree on one thing – psychobabble explanations for character defects are to be taken with a grain of salt.

          • Angela Ruzzo

            Role modeling is SO important. I was very lucky to have parents who were exceptional role models. I also had wonderful teachers who were the same. I didn’t realize that many of my friends were not so lucky until I was an adult and they began to tell me about their unhappy childhoods with parents who were alcoholic or religious fanatics or who were OCD hoarders or pathological misers, or who simply paid no attention to them at all. They never talked about any of this when we were growing up. I did notice that when we hung out together or had sleep overs, it was always at MY house.

            I am getting slightly annoyed with one friend whom I have known for 50 years, because everything that is wrong with her life, everything about her life that makes her unhappy, every character flaw that she sees in herself, she blames on her parents, who were oppressively religious and frugal, but definitely not what you would call abusive. But she left home at 18 and is now 61 … she has had plenty of time to overcome negative childhood influences, but as far as I can see she has never made the slightest effort to do so. She doesn’t know how to be happy…and I think perhaps she was just born that way.

          • (((fka_donnie_d))), SOB

            Yea, my father’s idea of “role modeling” was to father a child with another woman and not tell me for 3 years, so….

          • Angela Ruzzo

            Not good. One of my neighbors is the eldest of 5 children, all born 1 year apart, and when he was 6 and his youngest brother was only 6 months old, his father ran off with and married another woman (younger), who had 3 young children of her own, whom he adopted. Five or six years later he abandoned that woman for a third wife (younger again) who had 2 young children of her own, and he adopted them too, but once again he ran off after 5 or 6 years. He never paid any of his wives a penny of support. My neighbor said his father’s funeral was very interesting … three ex-wives and 10 adult children who all hated that man’s guts like poison, and who only showed up to make sure he was really dead.

            My neighbor’s mother re-married within a year, as she had 5 children to support and only a 10th grade education and no job skills and 5 very young children, but the stepfather was an alcoholic abuser who beat them all constantly.

            And yet my neighbor grew up to be a very kind and gentle person, was happily married for 35 years, and is highly respected in the neighborhood as being a model of generosity and courtesy. He credits his 3 years in the Air Force for teaching him a strong moral code.

          • (((fka_donnie_d))), SOB

            I try. I’m still not terribly patient with people I consider foolish, and too quick to judge.

          • Angela Ruzzo

            I used to be very patient with foolish people, but as I got older I became less and less patient. I am 61 now, and I have to stay away from foolish people or else I will say things I regret later. As a result, I don’t go out much, LOL.

          • Bananas Foster

            My father told me 21 years after my half sister was born…

          • (((fka_donnie_d))), SOB

            Wow, that definitely beats mine. By a factor of exactly 7.

          • Bananas Foster

            Or, she has trauma that hasn’t been addressed, because people think, her parents aren’t outwardly abusive so…

            When she blames her parents, I think perhaps she’s being total honest.

            That doesn’t mean she shouldn’t get her shit together, but parents don’t have to beat their kids for there to be lasting marks.

          • Angela Ruzzo

            What you say is true for many people, but I’ve had long talks with her sisters and brothers for the past 40 years, and the real problem seems to be that the father was a patriarchal Mormon minister, and the mother was emotionally starved and unhappy, but passive-aggressive about it. This is a negative combination, but not so bad that a person couldn’t leave home at age 18 and start to recover from it if they really wanted to. My friend carries things to bizarre extremes – if her car has a flat tire, she finds a way to blame her parents. If she doesn’t get a promotion at work, she blames her parents. If she is late for an appointment, she blames her parents, when the real reason why she is always late for appointments is that she refuses to wear a watch or carry a cell phone. Why does she refuse to wear a watch? Because ONCE, when she was 12, she forgot to take her watch off before getting into the shower and ruined it, and her frugal father was annoyed and refused to buy her a new watch. That was almost 50 years ago, and she hasn’t recovered from it yet.

          • Bananas Foster

            Perhaps the more pertinent issue to address here is the fact that you aren’t really interested in being friends with her.

            WHICH IS FINE! We often stay in relationships out of habit.

          • Angela Ruzzo

            Not true. I have been friends with her for 50 years, and we remain very good friends … but I have to limit my personal interactions with her to events such as concerts or festivals or movies in which we are both interested, because there are a lot of conversational distractions at such events, which minimize the time spent listening to the same complaints about her parents that I’ve been hearing for 40 years. At least she is consistent.

          • Bananas Foster

            I hesitate to comment again, but, I will…

            It doesn’t sound like you’re friends.

            I spend one on one time with my friends.

            You are acquaintances who used to know each other.

          • Angela Ruzzo

            I don’t think it’s for you to decide how other people can define friendship, you can only decide how you define it for yourself. I read an article long ago that said a true friend is someone who 1) will let you cry on their shoulder at 2 am on a work night when your heart is broken; and 2) will help you move house and 3) will bail you out of jail. That’s not a bad list, although perhaps not complete. I haven’t needed to test #3, but my friends have all passed the #1 and #2 test, both on the receiving end and the giving end, and I’m sure they would pass test #3 if it were required. The category of “old friend” is an entirely different matter – they might be true friends, or they might just be old friends, or they might be both. An old friend is someone who has known you since you were very young, who has probably seen you naked before it mattered to anyone, someone who knew you when you had acne and didn’t care what you looked like, and who probably knows the town you grew up in, the parents you grew up with, the music you grew up listening to, the schools you attended, and was quite possibly the first person you called after your first date or your first kiss. You might not be able to tell an old friend everything in later years, but you are so comfortable being around them that it doesn’t matter. You can share companionable silences. One of my old friends has already died of cancer, and even though we hadn’t spoken very often in the past 20 years, her passing has left a hole that can’t be filled by anyone else because of shared childhood memories that only she knew. I don’t have enough years left to make another old friend like her, so I tolerate the idiosyncracies in the ones I have left. It just annoys and saddens me to see the particular old friend I was writing about being so unhappy all the time over things she could and should have dealt with 40 years ago, and using her parents as an excuse to lock herself into negative life patterns.

            I think when we are young we expect our old friends to continue growing emotionally and spiritually at more-or-less the same rate we do, but of course this is hopeful thinking and it doesn’t always happen.

  • Daniel

    OT:

    That thing about the White Pendragons (gurgh, stupid, stupid bastards) trying to arrest Sadiq Khan- they claim the Fabian Society is a violation of the British Constitution because Magan Carta.

    1) Magna Carta precedes the formation of the UK by nearly 500 years. Interestingly they didn’t bring up the Declaration of Arbroath, because of course “British” means “English” for far right knob heads. See Farage.
    2) Magna Carta is a declaration of privileges for landed gentry, which I am going to guess none of these people are.
    3) From what I’ve read they were claiming Magna Carta doesn’t allow for a Muslim Mayor of London. There is so much wrong with this view, not least of which is that it ignores close to 800 years of laws regarding freedom of religion in this country following Magna Carta. If they’re citing this in seriousness, they have to allow that no Protestant should be in office. Which kind of fucks that whole Royal Family thing we have.

    Why are the people so determined to weild “our history” as a weapon so consistently so fucking ignorant of it?

    • msanthropesmr

      Because history is written to suit the purposes of the victors. And also, too, history is complicated an full of nuance. That doesn’t play well with anyone.

      • Daniel

        “The Charter of the Forest wasn’t signed so we could have a Muslim Mayor!”

      • efoveks

        And researching actual facts is harrrd.

    • Ellie

      I don’t know; I thought it mostly happened here. guess not.

    • GreenGoldSharpie

      Because they’re such losers they don’t have anything but what their ancestors may have done centuries before them.

    • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

      I thought they said the MAGA Carta. Which is basically the same as the laws of a certain German government from 1933-1945, but written in crayon and with the best, misspelled, nonexistent werds.

    • Bigly smart jesterpunk

      They have no idea what they are talking about but they want some kind of justification for why they are shitty people instead of just admitting that yes they are shitty people.

    • Iam Reading

      Wait wait wait wait. There is an English gang of doofuses called The White Pendragon’s? Seriously? Well you must be serious because honestly I don’t think you could make something so ridiculous up out of thin air. Holy shitsnacks

      • Daniel

        As I said on the last thread- the actual British dragon which was on the flag of the Pendragons was the red one. The white dragon was for the invading Germanic tribes who literally took the natives’ land.

        • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁
        • Latverian Diplomat

          So, it’s sort of a Daughters of the Confederacy kind of thing? Yay, we’re descended from the bad guys!

          :-)

          • Daniel

            I think it’s more that they know “Pendragon” was Arthur’s surname, and “white” is what they think Britain should be, and none of them have ever actually read any Arthurian myths and think “the matter of Britain” is that it’s full of foreigners.

          • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

            Arthur didn’t really exist, though, right? So these guys are basically Renfaire LARPers with a significant dose of Crusader ideology? The fuck?

          • LucindathePook

            There was some minor chieftain in the 4th century or sometime about there called Arthur.

        • Iam Reading

          And promptly murdered irony like their modern-day counterparts?

  • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

    OT: speaking of shoving agendas down someone’s throat… literally

    Mother in Oklahoma is found guilty of first-degree murder for fatally shoving a crucifix down her own daughter’s throat

    Irony: The daughter’s name was Geneva, which also happens to be the name of the city in Switzerland known for a famous U.N. convention against… torture.

    I almost want to bless myself reading the facts of this case but then, what’s the point, that’s just perpetuating the cycle…

  • BMW

    Andrew Sullivan seems to have alternating moments of brilliant clarity and acute numb-skullery with little middle ground.

  • Bigly smart jesterpunk

    If you intentionally remove a condom during sex you are a shitty person. If the condom come off during sex because sex education in this country sucks and you dont know how to use a condom and you dont tell your partner right when it comes off you are still a shitty person. If you force or guilt someone into doing something they they dont want to do your a shitty person. Basically if you dont want to be a shitty person make sure you have consent and dont take advantage of people. Its not hard to do.

    • Iam Reading

      Or, if you were like me in the 90s and were poor and used those shity free condoms you got on campus and they don’t last for more than 15 or 20 minutes you basically ended up with a cock ring around the base by the end of your session. Those were never good moments and usually ended up with a Q-tip insertion in the pee hole from a doctor the next week. Not good

    • Beelzebubba

      “Its not hard to do.”
      For some people, apparently, it is. One of them is the currenlty President.

  • Iam Reading

    Okay Andrew let me help it break it down for you. I could call you any horrible slurs for a gay man and that would be one thing. I could discriminate you because you are gay and that would be another thing I could punch you in the face because you are gay and that would be another thing. I could tie you up and drag you behind a truck because you are gay and that would be another thing. Do you see how allowing the first thing can potentially lead to the escalation and the ultimate endpoint of the last thing? This is what we’re fucking talking about here you asshole

  • Beelzebubba

    “If we start punishing men for sexual abuse and harassment, where will it all end?”

    Sullivan thinks it’s a dangerous, slippery slope – because in his world, no more abuse and harassment is a bad outcome.

  • msanthropesmr
    • Marion in Savannah

      Total squee.

  • Beelzebubba
    • Ryan Denniston

      Needs more feces stains.

      • GreenGoldSharpie

        And fast food wrappers around the hole.

    • Querolous

      That’s a hole full of ass.

  • (((fka_donnie_d))), SOB

    Andrew,

    Honey,

    You know how this shit got started?

    Not with Weinstein,

    Not with Billo,

    With Bob in IT and Fred in HR.

    Weinstein and Billo is where it _ended_.

    As long as Bob and IT and Bill in HR keep their shit straight, we won’t have to do it again, mmkay?

    • Nigel R. Toppinglift, III

      Fuckin’ Bob, man…

      • Stable Genius Jack

        Never trust a man who spells his name backwards.

  • Belasaurius

    Swing by Harper’s FaceSpace page and help shame them

  • GreenGoldSharpie

    I’m really past the point of listening to people justify shitty behavior.

    In a lot of way we liberals have gone from the rebel banging on the outside to being the defenders of common decency and morality against a sea of immoral, crude assholes representing a degenerate form of conservatism and Christianity.

    Maybe there was some truth that freed from the shackles of social expectations a bunch of shitty people think they can now get away with things. I mean, it seems to me #MeToo (along with other social movements) is a renewed attempt to establish those boundaries, but this time in a much fairer and equitable way.

    I’m totally on board with this.

  • Husband Of Mrs God

    You think you know somebody, then you turn your back on him for a second…

    • GreenGoldSharpie

      And, apparently, they’re grabbing your ass.

      • Husband Of Mrs God

        Very startling.

  • Martini A, very stable genius

    All the other obvious flaws of his thesis aside, it seems like a chunk of his argument is “a lot of the sexual abuse and creepy behavior didn’t happen while in a work environment, and therefore it’s not so bad.” So, the victimized women should just let it go, then? Because if it’s not 9-5 within the confines of an office, that makes it ok?

    • Ryan Denniston

      That does gel with Morning Mika’s conclusion that coworkers should not get drinks after work together.

      • Martini A, very stable genius

        To that I say, if a person can’t manage to be in a social setting without being a creep, maybe they should never leave the basement and just avoid public appearances entirely.

        • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

          The problem is, then they get on the Internet and can do things like doxing and swatting. There’s no escape from creeps until they dry up and cease to exist.

      • Latverian Diplomat

        I prefer to drink about my co-workers, not with them. :-)

  • JMP

    Aw, Sullivan’s taking time out from his normal career of justifying racism to go back to justifying misogyny.

    • Latverian Diplomat

      Bigotry magnetism is a thing, often aligned with crank magnetism.

      • JMP

        And Sullivan is one of the worst.

  • Belasaurius
    • natoslug

      He has a highly specialized skillset. It apparently includes mansplaining, but not the ability to buy a clue.

      • gallbladder

        That and starring in shitty movies.

    • Latverian Diplomat

      Somebody never recovered from method acting for the voice of Aslan?

  • FZsdaughter

    It’s like this woman said in the Guardian the other day, about how men who have managed to get decent jobs simply because they are not women, will now face the fact that they may not be preferred anymore, that they’ll lose their jobs or be passed over at hiring. Yeah, boo-hoo, but they are crying that their “right” to be breadwinners is being usurped, and this connects to their image of “manhood” (to which they also feel entitled). That women have borne injustice for thousands of years, and that this state of affairs is finally seeing an end, to them is like the end of the world. Sorry guys, but it’s just the beginning.

    • GreenGoldSharpie

      The problem is they’re going to whine, bitch, and sue the entire way.

      It amazes me how many men feel entitled to a good job and a good woman.

  • Jgb979

    Biggest difference between #metoo and the red scare.

    One was a “real thing” with actual victims, 90% of whom have still never faced justice.

    It’s always helpful to be reminded that conservative talking heads who are occasionally reasonable can still be terrible human beings

  • Latverian Diplomat

    I guess it’s been a while, though not long enough, since Andrew Sullivan was atrociously wrong about something.

  • House0fTheBlueLights

    Well, inasmuch as I got called out as a racist today for pointing out that suburban white people voted for Donald Trump, I say just fucking string them all up, because they will never fucking get it.

    • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

      Trump voters you mean, #notallsuburbanwhiteppl (I was with her)

      …and, with Democratic votes.

    • Beelzebubba

      Why are we letting people from those shitholes vote, anyway?

      • Bill Diaz

        It is amazing that the vote of an idiot from Wyoming is worth 5 geniuses in California, but it is a simple fact given our electoral college system (which incidentally failed the one time it was confronted with a situation that it was designed to prevent).

        The best part of all of this will be when Trump defects.

        Have a great day!

        • lastroth

          I would prefer banishment to defection, the first is us taking control and the second is a widdle boyo running home to Daddyo.

          • Bill Diaz

            Trump doesnt believe he has done anything wrong and has no loyalty to anything beyond himself. He will never allow himself to be impeached and imprisoned for his crimes, he will defect and he and Vlad have already practiced his escape route.

            Have a great day!

        • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

          From your lips…

      • commatoes

        Demographically, they are politely referred to as “low information voter”.

    • Bill Diaz

      When that happens to me (and it has), I just remind them that some of my best friends are white, so I cant be racist (I live in Vermont, it is like a chocolate chip cookie with 3 chocolate chips). But usually an accusation of racism is projection and it is an accusation that has never been leveled at me by anyone who has known me for 15 mins or more, lol.

      Have a great day!

      • commatoes

        Great to hear from you Bill.

        I haven’t been around as much lately. So I might not have noticed your posts.

        • Bill Diaz

          Been in and out of the hospital, lol.

          Thanks for noticing!

          Have a great day!

          • commatoes

            Intimately familiar with hospitals myself.

            There are only a few times I have looked foreward to going to the hospital. Foremost, the birth of my cousins and nieces and nephew and secondly my kidney transplants. Otherwise they uniformly suck.

    • Stable Genius Jack

      Like how they’re trying to say Nancy Pelosi was racist for her “five white guys” joke.

      The Donnie opened his shithole and killed that talking point.

  • Stable Genius Jack

    Gee, how terrible that men now have to keep their goddamn hands to themselves in the workplace. I mean, no more dick pics? No more creepy, stalkery DM’s? No more grabass in the copy room? Whatever will men do with all that free time? Their fucking job? Ha!

    This is how the “it’s gone too far!” men sound. It’s the fucking WORKPLACE. If you can’t pretend to be human, at least pretend to be professional.

    • GreenGoldSharpie

      That’s what strikes me as hilarious.

      I also want to know who the fuck has time to do this crap. I’m a teacher, and I don’t.

      • Stable Genius Jack

        I’m disabled and even I don’t have time for this shit.

      • Earl Of Sammich

        Ironically, it’s the same people who like to brag about how hard they work and how they deserve everything they have and everyone else should STFU and just work harder. I’ve worked in offices and factories in the past. The people like this also goof-off for the first hour or so of the workday, then spend the last hour of the workday complaining about having to stay late.

        • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

          And spend much of their time gossiping with the other nurses in a different department who never think “how do they get any work done when they are always in here?” Leaving you to do their job as well. Every job has them.

    • SeekingIndictmentBarbie

      Apparently they can just save up all their disrespectful, odious behaviors and express them after office hours when women engage in double-think and don’t realize the men behaving badly are the same ones they saw at the office.

      • Stable Genius Jack

        Or they could just, I dunno, not engage in disrespectful, odious behaviors at all.

        I know, I know, it can’t possibly be that easy.

    • commatoes

      The simplest solution is to ask, “would you do this to a co-worker of the opposite gender?” (I am possibly making an incorrect assumption about sexual orientation). If not, then you are treating your co-workers differently along gender lines.

      You are a sexist asshat.

      • Stable Genius Jack

        When this whole thing started, someone wrote this great blog post called “The Rock Rule” which is basically what you just said, only ask yourself “would I treat Dwayne ‘The Rock’ Johnson this way?”

  • Bub the very stable zombie

    This is such an utterly specious comparison. People in the fifties were being hounded for their constitutionally protected political beliefs, right to free speech, to freedom of association. What that has to do to people who are being harassed, discriminated against and criminally assaulted trying to change a system that allows them to be treated this way is, to put it politely, unclear.

    • Stable Genius Jack

      See? It’s totally the same thing.

      The Rosenbergs were executed and Bill O was let go with a nice severance package. Completely the same thing.

      • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

        Billo deserved the word “of” between “severance” and “package.”

        (Yeah, yeah. With votes bad book reviews.)

        • Stable Genius Jack

          I like you edit. I added it.

  • Jonny On Maui
    • Shankojebina

      Holy crap! How does that even happen?!

      • shivaskeeper

        Either someone hits the wrong button on the alarm system, or they forgot to announce the test.

        • BigBoppa ~ Résistent

          Or someone said “hold my beer”.

        • Phried Ω

          Whose idea was to have the canned message appended with, “This is not a drill?”

          • Jonny On Maui

            The one who’s going to be disciplined…

      • Victoria Ricola

        There are whispers of a hack, but it’s not coming from anyone really credible yet. Hopefully it was all a terrible accident.

    • Bub the very stable zombie

      No kidding! Glad it was a false alarm. Were you and Ms.MLG headed for the hills?

      • Jonny On Maui

        No hills to head for. Nearest fallout shelter is 15 minutes away.

    • wait! what?

      Looks like someone is really keen on devaluing property values.

    • natoslug

      I guess that’s one way to make sure everyone is wide awake and ready to face their day.

    • Everrett Fanuelli

      Curses! Trump’s false flag has been foiled! Remember the Maine!

    • Cousin Itt, hoi polloi

      The missile may have been false but the alarm was real.

      • Jonny On Maui

        Damn straight! Folk here are freaking out. We’ll know how many got hurt a little later I think.

    • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

      Donald came prematurely?

    • Phried Ω

      Back in the 60s I recall there having been monthly civil defense siren tests at noon on the second Wednesday. Even at my age it seemed like the obvious time for the Rooshuns to attack.

    • Victoria Ricola

      I can’t even imagine how freaked out I would be seeing this message. I’m glad you all are okay.

      • Jonny On Maui

        Thank you Victoria.

    • Ninja0980

      Someone screwed up, didn’t they?

  • shivaskeeper

    Oh good. I learned I can be any shade or prick I want with my coworkers provided I don’t do it on work hours.

    Good take away there Andrew.

    • GreenGoldSharpie

      Googling PUA forums right now?

      ;-)

      • shivaskeeper

        Right there is the blockquote:

        “Someone is accused of “creepy DMs or
        texts especially when drunk,” “weird lunch dates,” or “being handsy — at
        the very least — with women at parties.” One man is accused of “secretly removing condom during sex,” with no claim of workplace misconduct at all.”

        Andrew’s take seems to be that since they are not on work hours, it’s all good. Fucking fuck.

        As for the PUA forums, nuking the site from orbit would be the olny real option.

        • Nenatopia

          His take also seems to be that as long as it’s not “brutal rapes, physical assaults, brazen threats, unspeakable cruelty…”, it’s just silly for women to be talking about it at all.

          • shivaskeeper

            I think he’s not OK with hose, even outside of work, but all the lesser offenses can;t be workplace related if they are done after work. It’s stupid on it’s face.

            There also seems to be a fairly large dose of X is worse than Y so you can;t complain since you are only the victim on Y, as if this is some sort of competition.

        • Stulexington

          But how can a coworker’s behaviour outside of work possibly be relevant to weather a woman should feel safe alone with them at work? I mean it only makes sense if you think about it for two tenths of a nanosecond, who has time for that?

  • Me not sure
    • natoslug

      Considering the old commie push to poop lots of babbies into the world, I’m guessing that condom has more than a few holes in it.

      • Me not sure

        Probably Red Army issue.
        “Stay safe, comrade. You never know what those capitalists are carrying.”

        • natoslug

          My wife just reminded me I’m not allowed to call it pooping babies, as apparently that is both a misnomer and a disgusting visual.

          • Maggielle

            Tell your wife I said thanks.

      • Bill D. Burger

        Putin condoms: As thin and full of holes as a Trump promise.

      • darnyoudarnyoutoheck

        The USSR was not Romania. Birth control was scarce and unreliable, but medical abortions were accessible and safe. Hardly ideal, and backassward, but not horrendous

    • Daniel

      They were actually very effective. The waiting time between joining the condom queue and receiving the condom could often last weeks, killing the mood and preventing pregnancy with far more reliability than decadent western brands.

      • Me not sure

        Production qoutas were not met AGAIN? The condom commisssariate will be constirnated.

        • Phried Ω

          The Central State Condom Factory director will announce a new 5-year plan next Tuesday.

          • Me not sure

            “Mister President, we must not let there be a condom gap!”

    • Daniel

      “Safer than Stalingrad”

      • Me not sure

        So is hell. At least it’s warm.

    • commatoes

      Is it having to imagine Lenin and Stalin cuddling while mid coitus?

      Brezhnev and Yeltsin?

      or as reliable as a Trabant?

  • Bub the very stable zombie
  • Bell the Blind Tiger MCD

    I always thought the #MeToo movement was supposed to represent a spectrum of behavior. I mean, I do have a lady brain, so I understand that Sullivan’s black and white take on these issues must be far superior. because: penis. but it should be noted that prosecutable offenses are even recognized on a spectrum within the law itself going from just sexual harassment at a work place to premeditated sexual assault. what is powerful about the #MeToo movement is that it allows victims to discuss all forms of behavior that has made that is sexual in nature whether it just made them uncomfortable, shattered their lives or anything in between–and it has armed them with information about what actions they can take in response. while some men don’t like that continual clumsy flirting and DMs which receive no response toward a co-worker is defined as workplace harassment–they are and it is actionable. but they should feel secure in the knowledge that they will not receive the same reprisal for these offenses as whipping out their dick at the water fountain. but, again, I have a lady brain so what do I know about grey areas–I don’t even have advanced, masculine grey matter.

    • shivaskeeper

      You saved me the effort of mansplaning your lady brain, since you already mentioned the lady brain.

      • Bell the Blind Tiger MCD

        but can you mansplain to my lady brain why this is a black and white–or red and green–issue?

        • shivaskeeper

          Sure.

          Lady brains have no capacity for nuance so everything has to be black and white. Everything has to down to it’s base binary choice.

          Unless you are plotting a man’s downfall, where you can inexplicably suddenly understand nuance and 11th dimensional chess that might be played out over years.

          Simple really.

          • Bell the Blind Tiger MCD

            so even if my lady brain perceives a spectrum, it can only handle a black and white answer?

          • shivaskeeper

            Yes. The science is still out on whether you can actually perceive the spectrum, unless you are actively entrapping a man.

          • Bell the Blind Tiger MCD

            I never considered that I might have ulterior motives–if I’m even allowed to use those words–but I’ll have to find a man who didn’t have his mansplainer card revoked.

          • shivaskeeper

            Very good.

  • Debbie the Unpaid Protester

    IMO, the fact that “this chorus of minor offenses” is ordinarily ignored and/or not stopped, can lead directly to a man who believes he can get away with “brutal rapes, physical assaults, brazen threats.”

    I am trying to imagine any of the men in my life (from father to brothers to late husband to friends to coworkers) doing anything from even “this chorus of minor offenses” & I realize how lucky I am that I can’t imagine it.

    the only instance I can think of: Many, many years ago when I was a very naive lass of 23 or 24, I had a boss who wanted me to hug him when we were on a road trip, (in my hotel room at the end of the day*) because he said felt his employees were “family,”
    (I wouldn’t do it, I told him the idea made me very uncomfortable, & he backed right the fuck off, even though I was physically very small back then, & I also was not the most assertive person in the world–he gave me the silent treatment for a day, beyond that, didn’t retaliate), but boy that could have ended badly.

    that is the only instance of “minor offenses” that I have encountered in my life; my daughters’ friends (in their 20s) have encountered so much shit recently– have things gone backwards?

    *well, I said that I was naive

    • Begin Anew Day

      Things have gone backwards since an alleged sex ogre became the new president.

  • John Lo

    Since we’re talking about, mostly, the workplace, this conversation began in my place of business.
    Of course, the guys were whining that women co-workers may report them to HR if they harmlessly flirt.
    In the midst of this, I dragged out our Employee Handbook, and it’s comprehensive, and was unable to find any section, or reference to “flirting” or other sexually charged behavior.
    I found instead, what we are supposed to do when we get to work, and what we’re to do while at work, to complete the mission.
    Basically, a workplace is where we pursue our occupation, not where we test the waters and see if we can lay our dick on some co-workers shoulder, and get away with it.

    • Stable Genius Jack

      There used to be an expression that went “don’t dip your pen in the company ink”. Maybe it should maybe a comeback.

    • goCatgo

      In my experience, a couple will try to keep their coital experiences a secret, but it usually isn’t. It for shore isn’t when they break up. Sometimes it would affect the workplace. If they didn’t settle it quick, I would give them the Talk. Usually the Talk was punishment enough.

  • Tony Prost

    As a gay man, myself, who does not have that kind of relationship with women, I suspect Andrew does not understand what the hell he is talking about.
    Probably just echoing the bitching and moaning from the power guys he hangs around with.

    • Begin Anew Day

      “…the power guys he hangs around with.”

      What? Is he like a mascot or a court jester?

      • Bemused

        Almost as bad. He’s a token.

      • Tony Prost

        he’s the reasonable republican gay guy.

        • Begin Anew Day

          short form for that: “that fag”

  • Stable Genius Jack

    In my job havin’ days some twenty years ago, I remember running into my boss outside of work. She was the manager at the movie theater I ran projection for. She was at this club on Southside called “The Nick”. It was weird as fuck seeing her outside of work, as I’m sure it was for her to see me outside of work. For one thing, I wore (still do) a LOT of black, as in ALL black. My hair was shorter but I kept it high and spiked when I was not at work.

    Anyway, there’s no real point to this story except that we just nodded at each other and went about our respective evenings because neither of us were FUCKING CREEPS.

    That is all.

  • MaineRandy

    You may wish to hear it – I ‘m too weary of this gaydar-breaking, self-loathing, Republican-loving conservative POS. It shames me to see him as a member of our LGBTQ community.

    • Stable Genius Jack

      There’s assholes in every community.

    • commatoes

      Check out the Log Cabin Republicans. A prime example of voting against your self interest hoping that the GOP will come around eventually.

      • proudgrampa

        I have never understood these people. It’s like Black Republicans. I just don’t understand them.

        • commatoes

          Maybe it’s a value judgment.

          We will be treated as second class citizens but at least we will be rich second class citizens.

  • Bill D. Burger

    ot…but….Keeping the Hawaiians on their toezeees’!

    [Ballistic Missile Emergency Alert Mistakenly Sent To People In Hawaii

    Sara Boboltz
    ,HuffPost•January 13, 2018

    “BALLISTIC MISSILE THREAT INBOUND TO HAWAII,” the message read. “SEEK IMMEDIATE SHELTER. THIS IS NOT A DRILL.

    Honolulu mayor Kirk Caldwell and Rep. Tulsi Gabbard (D-Hawaii) said the message was a “false alarm.”

    Authorities are reportedly investigating how the alert was sent. A request for comment from Hawaii EMA was not immediately returned.]

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/ballistic-missile-emergency-alert-mistakenly-183709354.html?soc_trk=gcm&soc_src=ecd5e8af-dc90-3332-9efb-d522bf6b8dfa&.tsrc=notification-brknews

    • Ms.M.Like,Genius on Maui

      This is what Jonny and I woke up to. My heart is still racing.

      • Bill D. Burger

        With The Fucking Moron and Lil’ Kim in a pissing contest, I absolutely understand. What a shock to the system that must have been.

        • Ms.M.Like,Genius on Maui

          2 years ago, my first thought would have been “mistake” or “hoax”. Today, it was not. We couldn’t get through to Civil defense. 911 was busy. It was really scary.

          • proudgrampa

            I’m sure that was very frightening.

      • commatoes

        Vodka with a bong water chaser might help take the edge off.

        • Parakeetist

          And a chocolate brownie.

      • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

        Glad you are both OK. I can not even imagine.

    • Moldy Weißwurst

      I got that text message. Just got home after driving to Blaisdell Park (which is
      right next to Pearl Harbor – a likely primary target) to wait for the flash when the false alarm text arrived. Waiting for the end at Pearl would be very quick. There is absolutely nowhere to run and nowhere to hide on this island (only a very, very few houses have any sort of basement).

  • Villago Delenda Est

    Andrew Sullivan. Misogynist shithole. A shame to male homosexuals everywhere. A shame to males everywhere. A shame to all of humanity.

    • Parakeetist

      PREACH

  • commatoes

    Andrew Sullivan has his moments but then he has these moments.

    #smh

    • Bill D. Burger

      Indeed. I applauded when, after President Obama’s team took out bin Laden, Sullivan said, “If the president were a white Republican, there would already be a movement in Congress to have his visage put on Mt. Rushmore.”

  • bbayliss

    INCOMING MISSILES!!!!!!!
    never mind.

    • Jonny On Maui

      That’s almost funny…

      • proudgrampa

        They better not attack until after my next vacation there…

      • bbayliss

        I nearly shat myself.

    • Daniel

      When I lived in Korea there was an alarm during work. Everyone in my office got up to leave, but told me to stay at my desk.
      Then they left.
      A message appeared on my computer screen, informing me Korea was a divided country and under constant threat of bombing.
      The alarm continued to sound.
      I walked to the door.
      It was locked.
      The alarm stopped.
      I sat in total silence, in a school that had just been filled with more than a thousand students and staff, all now gone, alone, reading a message about immanent nuclear annihilation.

      • Ms.M.Like,Genius on Maui

        Jesus.

      • Villago Delenda Est

        The 15th of every month, at least when I was stationed there, was attack siren practice day. Everything came to a standstill for 10 minutes when the siren went off.

        • Daniel

          Every Wednesday morning in Prague there was a siren test. I didn’t know this because I was always away from the centre on Wednesdays. It shit me right up the first time I heard it, especially as the woman I was having coffee with just carried on as normal throughout.

      • commatoes

        I got used to it while I was there during the early 90’s. Granpappy Kim wasn’t doing too well so times were tense.

      • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

        Holy Hell, that must have been a trouser-wetting experience. That is a nightmare scenario.

    • commatoes

      Col. Flagg is that you?

    • puredog

      I have friends in HI. I sincerely hope they did not get the original warning.

  • Nenatopia

    Another reaction to this that is similarly anger-inducing is the “Things were different back then.” thing. Bullshit on so many levels.

  • Lyly Sirivong
    • commatoes

      A cinematic genius.

  • Blowtorch a condom to Andy’s dick: Save the bareback neckbeards!

    • Stable Genius Jack

      I read that as “Blowtorch a condom to Andy Dick”.

      • Pax Americana Per Ars Smith

        Six of one…

      • Not an entirely unjustified second step. can we get a second?

    • weejee

      For someone as thick as Sullivan you’d need a serious Lincoln arc welder.

  • weejee

    Andy, how often and how hard did Sister Caligula whack your left hand knuckles with a rebar ruler before you would finally use your right hand to pick-up your crayon? ffs

    • Robyn Ryan

      My parents had me wear a sign “I am a lefty. You will not change me.”
      1961.

      • weejee

        The good sisters beat that out of me. At least for writing and eating. Baseball, rifle, archery were another thing and that they did not seem to care.

  • SeekingIndictmentBarbie

    How nice of Sullivan to tell us which actions women don’t like are “minor offenses” that they should endure in silence. And I’m pretty sure “clumsy flirting” is a cop-out euphemism that includes at least some disgusting behaviors.

    • Bell the Blind Tiger MCD

      and that the response to minor offenses IS silence. I knew there was a spectrum of offenses, but not that anything which was not a felony should not be spoken about. I guess all those misdemeanor offenses in law are purely for show if they’re not related to traffic.

      • Stulexington

        After all, the really bad stuff doesn’t come out of repeated success with the lesser infractions … oh wait.

    • ginmar

      Yeah, nothing about how these dudes test boundaries and if they get away with small stuff, they escalate. And whose boundaries, you say? The onlookers and bystanders.

  • Rather tired of the fact that the backlash to the backlash is 1,000,000X faster than the original backlash.

    I know, I know…no one said there would be math

  • Everrett Fanuelli

    Did anyone see Joy Reid take down Pastor Burns this morning. If you didn’t here’s a short visual summary

    http://i.imgur.com/RJ1mQqZ.gif

    • Stable Genius Jack

      I watched it three times. Ran it back to that moment the “gotcha” smirk started forming on the corners of her mouth.

    • SayItWithWookies

      That loudmouthed fraud was too annoying to watch — I’m surprised he’s still getting airtime. But if it’s that good I might go back and give it a look.

    • Villago Delenda Est

      I liked the fact that Joy reminded him by saying “from the Bible” after stating the verse she was about to recite to him.

    • Bub the very stable zombie

      Skating across the middle with your head down against Scott Stevens was NOT a good idea…

    • vukojebina_MΩment

      Curling really is a violent sport. People don’t realize.

      • Mentally Stable Ron

        It involves lobbing bloody great rocks around. How could it not be?

      • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

        I know, sometimes you get a really bad perm and you just want to [redacted] the distracted stylist’s hair out…

    • ginmar

      Oooh, look, combat curling.

  • Empress of the Iguana People

    I was a sighted helper with a blind baseball team for a number of years before having children (Blindies running full tilt plus 2nd/3rd trimester and/or toddlers is a recipe for injury). One of the guys with a wee bit more vision was doing a count for sides, patting shoulders and chests. He thought I was the guy friend he’d rough house with (I swear sometimes they turned into a bunch of 17 yos, but I digress) and really smacked me hard and double palmed on the chest. He turned immediately beet red and apologized; I laughed my butt off. It was so clearly an accident, that only an incel would think someone’d consider it harassment. On the other hand, if that creepy dude who joined the team fairly recently had been the one to do it, I’d have wondered. He probably would have lingered.

  • SayItWithWookies

    And here we go with the backlash, which involves conflating sexual predation with innocent flirting and inciting the fear among men that anything they do is now suspect, which it isn’t. And Catherine Deneuve isn’t helping, insofar as her letter is now being used to hit back at the #MeToo awareness:

    The Deneuve letter rightly insisted: “Rape is a crime. But insistent or clumsy flirting is not a crime, nor is gallantry a chauvinist aggression.”

    To be clear, nobody gallantly forces a woman to watch him jack off into a potted plant. And I don’t think anyone’s been put on the list for holding a door open for a woman. If you’re not a sexual predator you’re probably okay, and you’re not being oppressed.

    • Bell the Blind Tiger MCD

      translation:

      workplace harassment laws are purely for show, you sluts. if you don’t want to be constantly hit on by Brad from accounting (who does so no matter how clearly you’ve said you’re not interested or how much you spent on that fake wedding band), hold a bottle of aspirin between your knees because it is so weird* that it will deter any further advances.

      *this kind of weird is a “thing” for some Brads. but if the behavior continues, it’s clearly your fault.

      • Very Stable Bozi
      • shivaskeeper

        The insistent part is what gets me, not the clumsy part.

        • Bell the Blind Tiger MCD

          do I need to take away your mansplainer card?

          • shivaskeeper

            It would probably be a good idea.

          • Bell the Blind Tiger MCD

            you have to actually let go of it.

      • SayItWithWookies

        Brad from accounting usually doesn’t take no for an answer. I actually got hit on at work by a guy who decided to give me an unsolicited back rub, and pushing his hand away and saying “cut it out” didn’t get through his head. I had to say, loud enough so the people in the next room could hear it, “If you touch me again I’m going to fuckin’ deck you.”

        Fortunately I’m a guy and everyone in the office thought this coworker was creepy. I’m pretty sure many women in similar situations don’t feel they have that recourse.

        • Bell the Blind Tiger MCD

          would it be ladylike for me to say, “I’ll fuckin’ deck you!” loud enough that it can be heard in the next room? holding this aspirin between my knees is giving me a cramp.

        • ginmar

          No, we absolutely don’t. I got fired for being a “troublemaker” for reporting a new hire who refused to follow orders—–I was his supervisor and trainer—and who felt that rape threats were an appropriate means of expressing disagreement with uppity wimmens.

          Note how being insubordinate and threatening were NOT troublemaking.

          I did get to tell off my frickin’ Gary Stu of a boss, though.

      • puredog

        And if you make it an empty glass bottle, you can turn it into a jagged weapon quickly enough if Brad doesn’t take the hint.

        • Bell the Blind Tiger MCD

          isn’t that a plotline in Orange Is the New Black?

    • shivaskeeper

      On an individual level some guys do get shit for holding a door and similar. It’s happened to me a few times. It’s how they react to something out of the ordinarily that makes the difference.

      I have been yelled at for supporting the patriarchy for holding a door. Also accused of treating women as lesser, incapable beings for doing it. The thing is, in 45 years, this has happened less than a handful of times. It’s happened so rarely that the few times it has happened have stuck in my memory because they are so out of the ordinary.

      I don’t extrapolate that to apply to how I should expect all women to react. Because extrapolating how a normal person is going to react from the actions of someone who is either disturbed or spoiling for a fight would be stupid.

      But I could do that. I could go on line and tell everyone who will listen to not hold doors or do anything else “chivalrous” because these ladies yelled at me and they are going to yell at you too. If I can get enough people to believe that sort of bullshit, the next thing you know there will be people slamming literal doors in your face so you can’t yell at them for holding them open.

      • SeekingIndictmentBarbie

        This so much. There seems to be this idea that we should all react according to the fringe nuts at the very ends of the bell curves. It’s tiresome.

        • shivaskeeper

          That’s part of it.

          There seems to be a push to make all the reactions the same as well. That we should react to rape the same way we should react to a one time use of harassing words.

          There is also a bias to compare and contrast everything. Rape is not as bad as sexual assault with no actual penetration which is not as bad as someone sending you unsolicited dick picks which is not as bad merely harassing words. If you were “only” assaulted, you should feel OK because someone who was raped had it worse and someone who was only subjected to words should get over it even faster.

          Every instance should be taken and judged on it’s own merits.

      • SisterArtemis

        Once again, very grateful to have you on my planet, what with your smarts and your nuanced thinking and all.

        I long ago decided that the world would be better if everyone held doors for everyone else, because being courteous and helpful is a nice thing.

        • shivaskeeper

          I do hold doors for everyone. Not just the ladies. Everyone. Because everyone should get a basic level of respect and acknowledgement as a human being from me.

      • puredog

        I’ve never gotten worse than side-eye (and that rarely) for holding a door for a woman. It’s never bothered me, since I also hold the door for men just as often.

        • shivaskeeper

          That’s the point.

  • Bigly smart jesterpunk

    Trump can mass text everyone in the country and no one can do anything about it if he wanted to.

    http://nymag.com/selectall/2016/11/president-trump-can-send-emergency-alerts-to-everyone.html

  • OTB

    Ah, crazy Andy. The man who said gays are “more married” than straights, that Arnold Schwarzenegger was “more American” than many native born, that a former bisexual like himself was actually “more gay” than the “hairy backed homos of Castro Street”… Ah yes, the stupidest pundit on the planet who had sexual fantasies about Dick Cheney before becoming “more Obama” than anybody—yes, this precious flip flopping reactionary fuckwit knows MORE about sexual abuse than some “breeders”.

    • Parakeetist

      Dude is trash

      • proudgrampa

        His Thoughts are not Deep.

    • puredog

      Well, I feel enlightened. I had no idea that any of these things were competitions. The things I learn here!

    • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

      Ahnuld from teh Osterreich is moar ‘Murican than an indigenous person? Seriously? Or just anyone in the category “people born in USA USA USA”?

    • Vel Venturi

      Wow, he sounds really, really insecure.

    • Lordpnut

      Cheney? Eww

  • Lyly Sirivong

    OT : The stupidest (and most horrifying) reaction to the #metoo movement in France is from writer Catherine Millet :

    They talk about rape as if it was a terrible trauma. A woman who’s been raped thinks she’s been sullied, and in my opinion, she internalizes other people’s speech. (…) I think it’s a remnant of archaism. […] If the girl was a virgin, fair enough, her integrity was broken. I’ve always thought it was much more serious to have both legs amputated in a car accident […] than to have been raped.”

    When the journalist pointed out that Catherine Millet had never experienced rape, she replied :

    That’s my big problem. I wish I’d been raped. Because then I could testify that one can get over rape.

    • TJ Barke
    • Parakeetist

      WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH HER

    • proudgrampa

      WTEF?

      What The Everloving Fuck?

    • Bigly smart jesterpunk
    • Jennifer R

      If there wasn’t a record of it I would say South Park did it and walk away.

    • Manders

      If I were the kind of person who commented and were a bit evil, I would say that I hope Mme Millet gets her wish.

      But I won’t. Instead, I’ll just say I hope all of her stockings have runs; that she always misses the train; that she steps in cat barf every morning when she gets out of bed; that every pen splats ink on her blouse.

      • Begin Anew Day

        I’ll just shorten that to “May Cthulhu smite her!”

    • Wonky “TransgenderFetus” McGoo

      Nice bit of ableism there, too. Better raped than handicapped, right?

      • Mysterious Masked Wrestler

        …are you seriously going to pretend having boths legs amputated is all good? Because if we wouldn’t want that, we’re insulting handicapped people?

        • Wonky “TransgenderFetus” McGoo

          No, but I do think it’s shitty for an able-bodied woman who hasn’t experienced rape to talk about how sure she is that her life would be worse as an amputee than as a rape victim. I think that is ableist, yes.

        • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

          Sorta OT, but there are people who actually do want this, and who do think that if you don’t think being an amputee is totally awesome, you are insulting the “differently abled.” They’re using their mental disorder to piggyback on transgender rights, and end up becoming an excuse for trans-haters to point fingers at trans people and say “see, you’re all crazy because you want to mutilate your body!” The disorder is called body identity integrity disorder, where people have an obsessive desire to self-harm to such an extent that they go into doctors’ offices demanding that healthy legs be cut off or something to that effect.

          But the “self-reclamation” term by the BIID-afflicted who’ve started a “movement” for this is called, get this, being “trans-abled.” One woman actually convinced her shrink to pour bleach in her eyes because she always wanted to be blind. It kinda goes along with those deaf-culture folks who equate cochlear implants with lobotomies, and the autistic-identity lobby who equates applied behavior analysis therapy with gay conversion therapy. Or the 1990s internet-borne “pro-ana”/”pro-mia” phenomenon of people who want to redefine anorexia and bulimia as dietary lifestyles comparable to veganism and the Paleo diet. It’s Munchausen syndrome on the scale of a political movement: making yourself or another person sick, injured or disabled as a way of promoting a political agenda or getting attention. They are crazy. Trans people are not. And they’re being victimized by that sort of insanity.

    • Pax Americana Per Ars Smith

      She hopes one (she) could get over it. But she has no idea if she could or not.

    • vukojebina_MΩment

      #rapesplained.

    • Stulexington

      When wish fulfillment violates the posting rules you have a serious problem.

    • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

      How do you say “you’re a fucking moron” en Francais?

      • Mentally Stable Ron

        ‘Imbécile!’ Spoken with great contempt. The French use tone of voice in place of certain adjectives. It works.

      • Bemused

        Cretin. There is at least on accent mark, but I can’t remember where it goes.

        • Lyly Sirivong

          Crétin. But it’s not as rude as “fucking moron” is. I guess if you want to keep the same level of profanity, you could say that this woman is “une grosse conne.” Or “une connasse”.
          Madame, vous êtes une connasse.

    • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

      She should speak to medical people who have seen the torn tissue and damage that can result.

      • Lyly Sirivong

        The comment was in an article explaining the various ways the body and the mind can react to a rape, because another woman in France (an err… adult movie actress) argued on telly you can climax during a rape.
        The article made it clear that rape is a traumatic experience even when there is an orgasm or something resembling an orgasm.
        And they made an analogy to tickling. Just because you laugh when you’re tickled doesn’t mean you enjoy it.

        • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

          Sounds like she is referring to rape fantasy which is very different.

  • Jeffocaster in the West

    The French are big on condoms, but like the Exocet missile only every other one works…..

    • Squeegee

      And Catherine Deneauve (spelling?) put it in writing thinking men should be free to harass women

      • vukojebina_MΩment

        Jerry-Lewis-loving surrender monkeys!

        • Squeegee

          Where Roman Polanski and that Depardeiu guy who boasted of gang banging a young woman in his youth are national treasures

          • ginmar

            ….gang-banging…..nope. Just…..nope. Oh, Gaaaaawwwwwddddd.

  • The Wanderer

    “My mother sells rubber to NATO;
    My sister pokes holes with a pin;
    My brother performs the abortions;
    My God! How the money rolls in!”

    — V. V. Putin

    • Lord Jim

      Sweet.

  • chronozoan

    Don’t you just love it when a gay man dictates what women should or shouldn’t find personally offensive behavior. My guess is ANDY LIKES IT RUFF

    • Mike Minden

      Seriously, why would this message be any more offensive coming from a gay man than from anybody else?

      • puredog

        Well, though I don’t want to generalize unduly, it might be reasonable to hope that a person who has been discriminated against and degraded for his sexual identity might naturally be receptive to complaints from others who have also been discriminated against and/or abused and/or degraded in situations arising out of their sexual identities.

        • Lord Jim

          Sadly, some people are just not reasonable. I certainly take your point, though.

          • Lordpnut

            And the worse the abuse, the more unpredictable their behavior can be.

    • Squeegee

      Andrew Sullivan is a self hating dickwad and I’ve never understood the attention he gets

  • Mike Minden

    A big part of the problem is that human relationships are inherently subjective. When people complain that the goal posts are constantly being move – they are absolutely correct. The goal posts move with every different person you interact with.

    Some people ( I suspect Sullivan is one of them) want clear, simple rules that can be applied in all cases. Not gonna happen. Add in that some people are always quick to assume that any conflict or misunderstanding is rooted in malice, and human relationships will always be messy.

    • Teecha

      There a quite a lot of men who would benefit from this one rule: treat women as real people.

    • pstokk

      Actually clear simple rules aren’t that difficult.
      1. Don’t do anything to anyone that you wouldn’t want done to you in their situation. Kinda crude but covers 99%.
      2. Where you have poor imagination or weak empathy, just strive extra hard not to be a dick, that will get you most of the way home.
      3. If you can’t manage not to be a dick, stay home. Alone.

      • Mike Minden

        If people could agree on what it means to “be a dick”, life would be much easier.

        • pstokk

          That why you have no. 1.
          Not that hard, really, as a concept.
          Living up to it in reality might be a bit more difficult. But the concept is wonderfully clear and simple.

  • susan_g

    One of the things that will most define the cheeto era is that the asshole spigot has been turned to completely wide open.

    • vukojebina_MΩment

      And a drive-by shooter killed all the plumbers.

    • Pax Americana Per Ars Smith

      And the faucet handle has been stolen.

    • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

      #BigotSpigot

  • Squeegee

    I was watching Fox News this morning…only because I was flipping channels…and the news anchor for Fox was interviewing a Haitian American who ran (or worked for) a Haitian community center in Queens

    Everything seemed to be going okay as the news anchor was just asking the Haitian American for his thoughts…but then the anchor asked the Haitian American to confirm that he agreed “THAT DIDN;T DONALD TRUMP KIND OF HAVE A POINT” (his words) that Haiti is a shit hole. The Haitian American guy immediately shut down the interview.

    What has been interesting to me is not that Trump said this but the reaction by conservative news media in trying to down play it. I really didn’t think they would go there but they have one after another.

    • Lord Jim

      You notice that prior to Trump’s non-credible attempt at a denial, “White House staffers” were already defending it. Lindsay Graham has all but admitted it. I’m pretty pessimistic these days, but I think Drumpf has been overplaying his hand for a while – his base is just not big enough to keep consequences at bay. But I kind of hope he keeps trying – midterm elections are gonna be a bitch for Rethugs.

      • sarafina

        That’s the plan.

  • Jennifer R
    • Raan
    • Talis

      I don’t get it. Could you please explain it to me?

      • Jennifer R

        TERF stands for trans exclusionary reactionary feminism, and gender essentialism is a TERFy thing where they edge out a lot of cis women to crap on trans women and show off a sixth grade understanding of biology.

        • BigBoppa ~ Résistent

          So, I was pretty close with my guess above?

          • Jennifer R

            Basically.

        • shivaskeeper

          You give them a lot of credit for a sixth grade level understanding.

          • Jennifer R

            We got to phenotypes in 6th grade. With the same level of depth and accuracy as we did friction, economics, or any other topic.

          • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

            GMTA. I always forget to read down.

        • Raan

          Oh, so the “No true Scotsman” fallacy.

          “No true feminist would think trans women are really women.” That kind of bullshit?

          • Jennifer R

            Yeah, or all true women ovulate (strikes out a ton of cis women) or have A given thing be true about them. All of which can and does exclude cis women as well.

        • Talis

          Thank you very much. I hope you have a great life.

        • Snork Maiden

          Some people throwing out the slur need to check themselves.There are plenty of instances in the UK where women attending meetings about the proposed legal changes to the definition of ” woman” have been attacked and doxed purely because they asked that the term ” woman” include all women. I have female friends stalked to stop them meeting. I have a teacher friend who these activists attempted to get fired because she said that cis women must also be included in any provisions made. Anti trans people are heinous but to attack and defame other women for wanting a say is also heinous.

          • Jennifer R

            TERF isn’t a slur.

          • Snork Maiden

            It is often used to demonize women and attempt to discredit their voices. So yes, it is a slur.

        • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

          Sixth grade level of biological understanding is being very generous.

      • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

        AFAIK or understand it: TERFs (trans-exclusionary radical feminists) are self-declared feminists who don’t think trans people are real (trans women in particular), that they’re mentally ill men with a cross-dressing fetish who 1) pretend to be women just to get in their “spaces” and/or 2) are guilty of “culturally appropriating” a certain “standard of femininity” that feminism is supposedly about rejecting or “deconstructing” as the term might be. When in fact they’re guilty of stereotyping all trans people as going overboard with, i.e., makeup and high heels or bodybuilding. They don’t account for identities like gender-fluid or intersex either. And they end up siding with trans-hating Republicans in a sort of horseshoe model where they too parrot the harmful myth that trans people are sexual predators who want to rape “real women” in restrooms and dressing rooms. The fact that they don’t think trans women are “real” is dehumanizing in and of itself.

        Not to mention that they’re basically biological reductionists who end up excluding cisgender women’s experiences and identities as women because they have a sort of checklist for what makes you a woman or not. Five years ago, I had an operation to remove my Fallopian tubes. As a result, I no longer get my monthly visit from Auntie Flo. Does that make me less of a woman? According to TERFs it does, because now I’ve “lost” my ability to “relate” to whatever “real women’s experiences” are. Just like mothers who claim that if you’ve never experienced childbirth pains you can’t really relate to what it feels like to be a mom, thus disparaging adoptive moms, foster moms, and same-sex couples or even grandparents and aunts who bring up the kids of relatives and siblings. Exclusionism.

        In short, they’re idiotic ideologues who claim to know everything there is about being a woman and yet know nothing, either about womanhood, about psychology, about identity or even about science.

        • Talis

          Thank you very much for helping me understand that term. I really had no idea.

        • OTB

          Thank you, Wonkepedia!

        • Lordpnut

          Dayum.I think I’ve heard all I need to know. Thanks for the schoolin’.

        • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

          Brilliantly expounded upon.

        • sarafina

          Wow. They sound stooooopid.

    • shivaskeeper

      TERF is a slur and it should be a slur. The TERFs have earned being slurred.

      • BigBoppa ~ Résistent

        Terrible evangelical Republican fucks?

        • shivaskeeper

          Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists.

          • BigBoppa ~ Résistent

            I like mine too. Perhaps I’ll change it to FRETs …Fucking Republican Evangical Turds. Or do I risk the ire of the guitar lobby?

          • shivaskeeper

            TERFs and the FRETs, as you call them, would be the two loudest groups claiming trans women are going to be molesting your daughters and wives in public bathrooms.

          • Raan

            Hey man, you don’t want to mess with the guitar lobby. They almost got their boy in the White House.

            If only he hadn’t pledged to decriminalize sloppy blowjobs.

          • Vagenda and Pee-ara

            Watch out for Big Guitar, theyve teamed up with the Freemasons.

          • Lord Jim

            Trans Eliminative Raging Fucktards.

      • Snork Maiden

        My friend ( vice chair of the national union of teachers in the uk) has experienced some bloody frightening violence from people calling her a terf. It is a highly charged slur, often used against women who they c!aim are anti trans. My friend is involved in the debate in the UK over gender identity and because she said that all women should be involved she was labeled a terf. At a meeting designed to discuss definitions another woman was attacked and left bleeding by activists yelling that all terfs should die. I respectfully suggest that you look at who is throwing the slur around and why.

        • shivaskeeper

          My statement applies to the self identified TERFs. Identified by their own words or actions.

          • Snork Maiden

            My problem is that it is thrown around at random towards people who some activists don’t want heard. The gender debate in the UK is very tense and demonizing someone because they question your right to have an opinion is dangerous

        • ginmar

          I had a nutjob stalker call me a terf along with every slur he could think of, because as a white dude, he knew some people would believe him just because he was a white guy, accusing a woman. I’ve started paying attention to these guys, because they do tend to have a particular political mindset, and at a certain point, they have to buy into their own lies about you or face the truth about themselves.

    • Amazing Professional Lunatic

      I see nothing. Is this a tweet? I haven’t been able to see tweets for 3 or 4 days now. After reading the replies, I’d like to see it. Reloading doesn’t help.

      • Jennifer R

        Yeah it’s a tweet. Wonder what went tits up to make that not work for you?

  • Bigly smart jesterpunk

    What the fuck is wrong with people?

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/man-kills-68-year-old-mother-broken-video-game-headset-article-1.3754550

    A man was arrested for fatally shooting his 68-year-old mother after he threatened to kill both his parents over a broken video game headset, police said.

    Matthew Nicholson, 28, was playing video games in the bedroom of his Ceres, Calif., home on Wednesday night when an argument broke out with his mother Lydia Nicholson.

    Nicholson shot his mother in the head and fled to a relative’s home before he was later arrested during a traffic stop, police said.

    • vukojebina_MΩment

      Misspelled ” “his” home”.

    • BigBoppa ~ Résistent

      28 year old man playing video games in his bedroom at his parent’s house would be a partial answer to your question.

      • Raan

        I bet you it was fuckin’ Call of Duty.

        • Jennifer R

          PUBG likely as not. It’s currently the most concurrently played game on steam, and maybe anywhere.

        • Snork Maiden

          Was he flying his F52???

    • TJ Barke

      Something tells me there’s probably more to it than just that…

      • Bigly smart jesterpunk

        The 28-year-old started yelling while he was playing video games in his bedroom on Wednesday night, police said.

        When the mother went to check on him, Matthew Nicholson argued with her and broke his own headset.

        Matthew Nicholson then blamed his mom and threatened to kill both his parents before he grabbed a handgun in the home, police said.

        He shot his mother in the head before his 81-year-old father Loren Nicholson wrestled the gun out of his hands, according to police.

        Someone who takes video games way to seriously, has anger problems and has access to a gun. What could go wrong.

        • Wonky “TransgenderFetus” McGoo

          If only there had been more guns around to keep everyone safe.

          • Vagenda and Pee-ara

            The only person who can stop a bad child with a gun is a good parent with a gun.

        • Vagenda and Pee-ara

          I’m going to guess that he may also have some sort of mental illness.

          • commatoes

            One should not demonize gun owners that way.

            *turn sarcasm mode to off*

        • TJ Barke

          Probably some long simmering resentment and antagonism going on too.

          • Vagenda and Pee-ara

            ….and mental illness. Or else he just really doesn’t like Mondays.

        • Mentally Stable Ron

          His 81-YEAR-OLD FATHER disarmed him.
          WTF was going on in that house?

          • puredog

            Well, if he’s their natural (unnatural) son, he was conceived when dad was 53 and mom was 40 — a little old, but not complete outliers. Still leaves the question of what was going on in that house. It would be irresponsible not to speculate, for example, whether — had not homicide begun at home — he might have sooner or later taken that armed rage to the streets.
            TL;DR. It’s too soon to talk about it.
            /s

          • Mentally Stable Ron

            It wasn’t only that. I’m trying to picture an 81-year-old man who can disarm a 28-year-old adult. Hell, the poor man deserves a medal. I’m thinking he probably prevented a lot more deaths.

          • Lordpnut

            Armed with a gun. With a warm barrel (the second shot should be more accurate).

      • vukojebina_MΩment

        I’ll bet he asked for a Pepsi and she wouldn’t give it to him!

        • commatoes

          But he’s not crazy.

        • ginmar

          Or the tendies were cold.

  • Bub the very stable zombie
    • vukojebina_MΩment

      Not the Steinassgreensullducken!

      • Bub the very stable zombie

        But where’s Bernie? Seriously though…*kisses fingertips* bravo!

    • The Wanderer

      That is poetry.

    • commatoes

      Smegma daisy chain.

    • shivaskeeper

      Sounds good to me.

    • Sounds like a movie Greenwald would have made when he owned the gay porn studio.

    • little miss high and mighty

      All imminently rational propositions.
      We heartily agree.

    • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

      Speaking of genius.

  • Ninja0980

    Alas, Sully is just demonstrating the sad reality that many gay men are misogynists.
    Mostly afflicts conservative ones but seen it in far left types as well.

    • Gayer Than Thou

      Sadly and unfortunately the truth.

      • Vagenda and Pee-ara

        As a gay woman, I will second that. Some of my best friends have also been gay men, though, so #notallgaymen,

        • Gayer Than Thou

          #NotAllGayMen, but way too many of them (us). It’s dispiriting.

          • Vagenda and Pee-ara

            There are some gay women who really hate men, too, but I tend to not hang out with them. I think it’s dumb to hate any group (except teenagers, because they are just raging assholes).*

            *I’m just kidding (kind of), but you still need to get off my lawn!

          • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

            Yes, I don’t get the hate for an entire group of people either. I mean it is not like we are all carbon copies of each other. I have yet to find any given group of people who feel the same way about everything. unless they have been indoctrinated at a young age to hate…

          • Vagenda and Pee-ara

            Full disclosure: I hate Republicans as a group, but still associate with a few of them.

          • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

            I was kind of thinking of the generational hates that are so popular now. And I really don’t like the accusations that progressives all… Democrats all…I couldn’t be a repub because of their anti-gay plank as well as the anti-woman aka anti-abortion stance. So automatically I’m one if not both of those groups. Sorry, I’m rambling.

    • LeftyProud

      I was thinking that about with the stealthing (taking off a condom) As a gay man, he should be furious about that. But when it happens to a woman….

    • Lordpnut

      “Watch who you call crypto-nazi or I’ll smash you in your face and you’ll stay planted, you fucking queer!”
      – Buckley v. Vidal, 1968

      • little miss high and mighty

        Vidal eschewed the term “gay” prefering homosexual or “same sex reationship”.

        • Lordpnut

          I just recently learned of that incident on a pbs documentary, and it’s fascinating how that incident affected both men to their grave.
          Today vastly more egregious shit happens daily seems frivolous. We really are insensitive, ignorant, and crass.

          • little miss high and mighty

            Gore Vidal was our Oscar Wilde

          • Lordpnut

            You read plays? Is it true that you listened to raps without a beat?

          • little miss high and mighty

            Just read “Exiles” (J.Joyce)
            Beats from a beater? , sure- from a machine?–uh uh

          • Lordpnut

            Joyce? That’s kinda heavy for a dick-joke mommy-blog idnit?

          • little miss high and mighty

            Actually we found “Exiles quite tame and accessible.
            Very few performances ever in thr Englsh language- but in German mosty from (J.J.) in gets staged in repertoire .

          • Lordpnut

            Do you know if Kafka preferred to write in German or Czech?

          • little miss high and mighty

            He was a German Jew living in a Czech-speaking city.
            Obviously he spoke a few languages, not counting the failly’s household dialect of German- spoken with an urban Czech accent, they say.
            Studied Czech in school , so he new it but (says ) he never considered himself a fluent Czech speaker. His job was obviously in the national language.
            As of the 1990’s and since then, too (amazing fact check, noow): No translation into Czech currently in print. (!)

          • Lordpnut

            Wow. Thanks for the info. I wondered because his style is so unique – very precise language creating dream-like scenes.

        • Lordpnut

          Btw , did Vidal say why “gay” was not the preferred nomenclature?

          • little miss high and mighty

            You can read one take on it (there are several) i “OUT” 1 July, 2014 (Vidal died in 2012) so no rebuttals on this one.
            Author name a Tim Teeman.
            One side of the “Vidal prefers other term than gay theme”.
            Better explained in hus own words.
            Vidal was a language monster , so he thought hard on anything he would use. He asked once what was so wrong with the existing terms- that started the curiousities.
            – sorry I cannot link from here. Easy to searchengine – use of the word by Vidal.
            Interesting how just one little theme in a person’s enormous life can bring new curiousers.

  • Christopher Story

    Seriously, all the male preoccupation with how a woman wants her vagina treated has got to end. It’s her vagina, she gets to tell you when, where, how and why you get to do anything with it, and if you get to do anything with it at all. It’s weird to me that this is such a weird concept to so many other men.

  • The Very Stable Librarian

    Mr. Sullivan has probably had an unsavory thought or two about someone, but thoughts need to stay in one’s head. Unleashing them on anyone non-consensual is non-ok [sic].

  • Rick Hill

    I read this and the comments and all I can think is “Y’all muderfckers need Jeebus”…..no, wait. That’s not it. A drink. You good people all need a drink.

    • Christopher Story

      And a shower. In the drink. With a shower. I’ve had my drink. *hic*

      • Rick Hill

        Just don’t water it down

        • Christopher Story

          That’s what the umbrella’s for

          • Rick Hill

            *smacks forehead*…..

    • commatoes

      Purple Jesus was vodka and grape Koolaid™ in uni.

      • Rick Hill

        Ok, maybe you need Jeebus….

      • RMKH

        In my world, Purple Jesus punch was when everyone brought either hard liquor of choice or red wine, and we mixed it all together in a big tub. I guess that didn’t catch on, huh? Can’t figure out why.

        • commatoes

          I remember that from Cannery Row.

          I tried it once. I was never that desperate again.

          • RMKH

            I’d forgotten where that came from! Yeah, it was stupid 20-y-old stuff.

        • theCryptofishist

          Wasn’t that also called a “suicide?”

      • vukojebina_MΩment
      • Ours was 151 vodka with Welch’s Grape Juice concentrate.

        • Lordpnut

          One-ninety proof Everclear grain ethyl alcohol. Mixed by teenaged Mormons. Ahh. Good times.

        • commatoes

          Good but occasionally vaguely remembered times.

    • Raan

      If He can turn a bathtub of water into Ripple or Thunderbird, He’s more than welcome in my home.

    • Lordpnut

      Medicinal reef – just for procreation, you understand.

      • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

        Recreation dear, not procreation.

        • Lordpnut

          Oh…I guess I should update my priorities…thanks.

          • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

            Recreation = good.
            Procreation good if that’s what you intend to do.

          • Lordpnut

            That boat sailed, was decommissioned, and put in dry-dock.

          • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

            Not my thing either, to each his own. : )

  • James Baskin

    I don’t know who Andrew Sullivan is and I don’t care. As they say “You’re either part of the problem or you’re part of the solution.” He is obviously part of the problem.
    I would also beg to differ that McCarthyism and the Red Scare were moral panics. They were political motivated immoral panics.

    • BigBoppa ~ Résistent

      He’s one of Dame Peggington’s drinking buddies.

      • James Baskin

        ??

        • BigBoppa ~ Résistent

          Peggy Noonan. She and Andrew are fellow right wing pundits.
          Edit- I assumed you spoke Wonkette.

          • Vagenda and Pee-ara

            Sullivan is a Democrat now, I think. I find him somewhat useful, because he does call out some of the excesses that Democrats are guilty of. OTOH, his abiding hatred of the Clintons is just weird.

          • 🍁 Møøse Fuddlin’ Girl Guide 🍁

            Gee, if he wrote a screed like this, I can’t figure out why he hates Hillary so much.

          • Vagenda and Pee-ara

            He also hates Bill. I really think someone needs to get the doll out, and make Sullivan show us where the Clintons touched him.his hatred for them is completely irrational.

          • BigBoppa ~ Résistent

            He identifies as a Tory conservative. He claims to have supported Obama, which may or may not be true. I don’t know how he feels about the current occupant, I suspect he’s not a supporter. If so, then I’d bet good moneys that he voted for Jill Stein due to his well known Clinton hatred.

          • Vagenda and Pee-ara

            He actually loathes Trump and thinks he’s a danger to democracy. Trump may be the only person he hates more than the Clintons.

          • sarafina

            Sullivan is in the wrong country, then.

          • James Baskin

            “She and Andrew are fellow right wing pundits.”
            That’s why I don’t know who they are.

  • NotALiar

    Can anyone guess where the list leaked from?? Anyone? Anyone? That’s right it was 4chan /pol/ and Mike Cernovich. Surprise! They were so happy to get the list to “troll and fuck with people.”

    • Christopher Story

      And yet they wonder why nobody will love them

    • ginmar

      Cernovich? The guy who brags about sexual assault.

      • NotALiar

        He pretty much did, yes. He’s fucking horrible.

  • roberteye

    Right wing idiot trolling for relevancy

  • Vagenda and Pee-ara

    I have a love/hate relationship with Sullivan. Some times he makes a good point, but he still manages to irritate me. One of the points he made in that article is that men are entitled to due process. He specifically mentioned Al Franken. I agree with him, and I’m a woman.

    The othet part I agreed with Sullivan about is that I think we are making a mistake by assuming all women are telling the truth 100% of the time, because they are not. I have a few examples in my own life where i have been accused of something that did not happen.

    Sullivan also mentions that he believes every woman who ever accused Bill Clinton (of course he does!). He even mentions Juanita Broadrrick who is the woman who accused Clinton of rape, and said Hillary thanked her for letting Bill rape her. This woman was such a nut, that even Ken Starr said she wasn’t credible. Sullivan hates the Clintons so much that i disagree with everything he says about them.

    • ginmar

      Problem is, this has been studied for decades now. Why is everybody so eager to talk about women lying but not men? Men get to falsely accuse women right and left, and people applaud. People like lies about women. They hate when women tell the truth about men.

      Women don’t lie about rape any more than men lie about burglary. The odds are such that there’s a 92-to-98% chance women are telling the truth. There’s similar odds that accused men are lying. How many of those women were themselves falsely accused of lying, as in the Marc O’Leary case? The fact that the cops arbitrarily accused a victim of lying meant that O’Leary got to rape more women.

      • Sekhmet1

        This is important. A couple of years ago, a refugee detained on Nauru sought an abortion for a pregnancy which she said was a product of rape. The Nauruan authorities and the Australian government were at pains to paint the rape accusations as false (because of course they did), and there were threats of charging her with making a false statement to shut her and her advocates up. Online comments (from both women and men) abounded, pontificating about giving the alleged rapist the benefit of the doubt. I asked why they weren’t giving this woman, being accused of the crime of making a false statement to police, the “benefit of the doubt” and assuming at least that she was telling the truth as she believed and recalled it. The sound of crickets in response was deafening.

        • ginmar

          Yep, like the Marc O’Leary victim. She was named, charged, and fined. Why? Because the cops had a suspicion. Based on what? Oh, bullshit, basically—–she acted the wrong way. O’Leary got to rape at least four more women. Then he got caught and they found that his camera contained documentation of the rape of that woman.

          • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

            That is fucking awful. And I suspect most of them just never get caught.

          • ginmar

            How many cops are rapists themselves? Fully 40% of them beat their wives and/or girlfriends, and cops tend to skew Trumpish. Cops are 80-90% white, male, and conservative. Look at that cop who got convicted of multiple rapes. He saw black women and thought “drug addict”, not “grandma” or “church goer.” (And how many black folks have arrests on their records that were nothing but racist harassment by white officers?) The way that cop acted on being convicted—–sobbing, wailing, the whole performance—–indicates either he’s a cold psycho to do a routine like that cold, or else he really believed it was no big deal to assault black women like that. Like Brock Turner, you wonder where that came from.

            Sorry, I’m rambling.

          • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

            These are the things we would attempt to fix were we in power. This is also why they want to perpetuate stereotypes, so they can keep doing it. And you are not rambling, not here with like minds.

      • Vagenda and Pee-ara

        Oh, I agree that MOST women are telling the truth. I would agree with you that the figure is upwards of 90% of people who say they were sexually assaulted are telling the truth. I also believe people have a right to a fair trial. Those two thoughts aren’t mutually exclusive.

        I could give you examples of people going to jail over false accusations. The Innocence Project has freed over 300 men, most of whom were accused of rape and murder, many of them had been positively identified by witnesses (frequently the victim herself). They were cleared by DNA.

        I think feminists are making a mistake by saying we have to believe every single accuser, all the time, regardless of how believable the story, or the woman is. Not everyone who is accused of a crime is guilty. PERIOD.

        • sgt. jmk of the résistance

          I don’t think that the majority of feminists think “believe women” amounts to “we have to believe every single accuser, all the time, regardless of how believable the story, or the woman is.

          I think what most people think it means is that we should “believe women” in the way that we believe other victims of crimes, and investigate all crimes that are reported until there is specific evidence that the person making the allegation is lying.

          That’s a very different thing.

          • Vagenda and Pee-ara

            I wish I agreed with you. Democrats were overwhelmingly calling for Al Franken’s head, based on the word of a former Fox employee. Now some are seeing thast may have been an error, particularly since Tim Pawlenty will probably win his old seat. Yay for women! What a victory. We should have given Franken the benefit of the doubt, particularly when the women he worked with said he was always a gentleman.

            I find it’s mostly younger women that do this, and I find it very infantalizing to women. Example: a young woman was invited to a writer’s conference in NYC. A guy offered to let her stay at his apartment if she’d sleep with him. She goes to his apartment and as promised, the man expects sex, and she complies, but later says she was raped. There were other people in the apartment, but she never cried out for help. I was reading a young feminist’s blog, and they were discussing how the woman had absolutely NO choices whatsoever, because the conference was important to her, and therefore she HAD to sleep with him. I would have either not gone, or slept on a bus. Women aren’t helpless children, but that’s how they were talking about this woman.

          • sgt. jmk of the résistance

            Stuff like that makes me cringe, hard. I’ve left a couple of groups on social media over that kind of overly-whingy damsel-in-distress bullshit.

            I don’t think that people immediately called for Franken’s head. If I remember correctly, it was after the eighth allegation that the conversation switched from “go through the ethics thing” to “you need to go.”

            Gillibrand, specifically, has taken a lot of heat for it, and I’ve seen a lot of anger directed at her, and it’s starting to morph into that same snide belittling I saw aimed at Hillary – crap like “oh, she’s just an ambitious opportunist… she used to be for everything she says she’s against now” on social media. That baffles me, since she’s made military and campus sexual assault a huge priority while she’s been in the Senate – often alone – and has been the target of some harassment herself since being elected, so it seems unrealistic for anyone to have expected her to give Franken a pass.

          • sarafina

            I agree. I wish Franken hadn’t resigned, but talk about infantilizing – no on could have made him leave if it wasn’t his decision. And I agree that the bullshit left is now trying to do the same thing to Gillibrand as was done to HRC, joining with the Russian/Republican liars to defeat a strong woman. I really like HRC, I don’t know that much about Gillibrand except she has spoken out strongly against sexual abuse/assault.

          • sgt. jmk of the résistance

            I like her. As a downstate Noo Yawka, I was very suspicious of her when she was first appointed to fill Hillary’s seat – an upstate Dem who was considered gun-friendly?? THE HELL YOU SAY!! – but she’s totally changed my mind.
            She’s not perfect, but she isn’t shy about speaking out and standing up when something is wrong, and she listens and has grown in office. I love that there’s not a lot of window-dressing to her – she thoroughly studies issues when she gets involved in them, and takes passionate positions… if you listen to her on the topic of dredging in Long Island Sound, for example, you’d think she grew up down here. And, of course, she’s been relentless in holding the military to account for how they handle sexual assaults.

        • ginmar

          Er, you do realize that if they’re accused of “and murder” that the victims aren’t the ones dking the false accusing, right?

          When the odds are 95% that women are telling the truth and 95% that men are lying, you are goddamned right it’s WOMEN who get the benefit of the doubt.

  • Reximus
    • Christopher Story

      Shit, now I wish I really did have a drink.

      • vukojebina_MΩment

        I’m surprised Kim isn’t feeding Hannity exclusives while he’s on the air, just to tweak with POSOTUS.

      • commatoes

        Imagine Dolt disagreeing with the NSC/NSA and going with the Doocy, Kilmeade, and blonde to be named later?

        Maybe you want to add a zero behind the number of drinks.

    • BigBoppa ~ Résistent

      Depends stock would skyrocket?

    • Vagenda and Pee-ara

      Didn’t Hawaii experience that this AM? That would definitely be a pants shitting experience.

      • Snork Maiden

        Have a friend who was on Maui for a conference.She said it was the most terrifying 40 mins of her life. Unable to call her partner and kids for what she thought was a final goodbye.

        • Vagenda and Pee-ara

          I’m sure it was terrifying. Thanks, Trump!

    • commatoes

      Frum has really been surprising me lately and in a very good way.

    • suziq

      Well thanks. Another thing to keep me up at night.

    • puredog

      Or, even better, a real one, with Fox Studios the sole target. (“Who sent it?”)

      • Lordpnut

        I’ve read that the Russians have developed a neutron bomb the size of a briefcase. It would probably be very heavy, though.

  • Ninja0980

    One more thing, stealthing (removal of condom during sex) is in fact sexual assault and I’ve had it happen to friends, gay and straight.
    My one friend caught his ex-boyfriend doing it and kicked him to the curb.
    Thankfully he tested negative but other people this has happened to haven’t been so lucky.
    To downplay that…fuck you Sully.

  • capnkrunch

    […] as you may know, the list has not lead to any mass firings of clumsily flirty men anyway.

    How about, let’s just agree no flirting at work? Then there’s no worries. Contrary to popular belief, it is possible to talk to women without flirting. You can even be friendly without being flirty! Weird, right?

    • Stulexington

      You can even treat women … dare I say it … professionally at work.

      • Vagenda and Pee-ara

        How DARE You?????

      • Hamilton Ω, AKA Formerly DN

        GASP! {{{faints}}}

      • capnkrunch

        Woah. Now that’s a radical idea. It’s almost like you’re suggesting that women are contributing members of the workplace and not just eye candy.

        Wait, by radical idea I meant idea that’s should just be a given.

      • little miss high and mighty

        there’s a novel idea!

    • Lordpnut

      Forbidden fruit? GTFO! That’s even hotter!

    • conlakappa

      There go a good chunk of romcoms as well as television dramas and comedies. So much hooking up with colleagues, so much skeeve.

  • commatoes

    One thing that that many here seem to forget, is that on the right Communist is on par with people that set live puppies on fire. In Sullivan’s mind it is a perfectly valid value judgment. And to all on the right that hold similar opinions on Socialism and Communism, I say…

    Fuck you all!!! You ignorant stupid fucks that get pissed on by the GOP and believe them when they tell you it is a warm shower!!!!!

  • louwhitaker

    “What I’d like to know is what it is, exactly, that Andrew Sullivan and others like him think would be a better solution.” A fair question. The nature of this crime is that there is no proof in many cases, and while there are egregious examples of behavior that is clearly criminal, there are also situations which are, indeed, no more than “clumsy flirting”. When I was a teenager, and into my college years, I was clumsy and inept–this is alas the inevitable byproduct of so much of the on-the-job training we all go through as we learn to be adults. But I wasn’t a criminal.

    It is no doubt true that innocent men stand a real danger of being railroaded without due process (arguably, this might describe Al Franken), which will inevitably create a backlash. And that will be a tragedy for women who are truly victimized. I am at a loss as to how to deal with this in a truly just way, and I wish that people who write about this subject would have the humility to admit that they are as well.

    • BigBoppa ~ Résistent

      IMO, clumsy flirting is fine as long as it doesn’t persist AFTER one has been asked to stop.

      • puredog

        I don’t know that it’s “fine,” but forgivable or even understandable.

        • BigBoppa ~ Résistent

          In the context of how louwitaker et.al described it I stand by fine.

          • puredog

            I did not know you were referring to a specific context (of which context I am unaware), but was simply assuming a range of behaviors that might merit that badge, which range was broad enough to include some stuff which — while not “criminal” — was not “fine” either. IOW, we may not disagree.

          • BigBoppa ~ Résistent

            As a former clumsy flirter (I was an extremely shy teenager) I tend to see it in the afore mentioned context by default.

      • Mike Minden

        Bingo.

      • Vagenda and Pee-ara

        I am a lesbian, but I have never been offended when men asked me out. The only ones who pissed me off were the ones who persisted after I politely declined. A few turned into harrassers and one stalked me for a while. Christ, when a person says “no” just respect their wishes.

        I’ve been turned down plenty of times, and I just walk away. It’s not a difficult concept.

        • Lordpnut

          Most men have a fairly fragile ego (me incuded), and the default reaction to rejection – real or perceived – is anger. We can get past that, but it’s not necessarily easy. Generally, the approval our group carries a lot of weight as does the local atmosphere. Behavior is very plastic, but won’t change until society demands it.

          • Vagenda and Pee-ara

            I am a woman who has asked many other women out on dates, over the past 40 years. My reaction to being rejected has not been anger, i think it would mostly be embarassment for having asked. Maybe men and women percieve rejection in different ways.

          • Lordpnut

            No, you’re accurate. But embarrassment and shame, though universally experienced, are not to be expressed. It will get you kicked off the team. Anger, even though secondary, is far easier to justify to your fellows. I don’t know why, just that it is.

          • Vagenda and Pee-ara

            Testosterone versus estrogen?

          • Lordpnut

            Almost certainly, but the specifics are far beyond my feeble understanding of biological chemistry.

    • Mike Minden

      I confess – I’m a nerd. I’m too old for it to really matter anymore, but high school and college were sometimes awful. Clumsy, inept, shy, tongue-tied, and a host of other foibles. What I wasn’t being was malicious…and that is the part of the equation I fear will get lost.

      • Vagenda and Pee-ara

        There’s nothing wrong with asking someone out for a date (unless they work for you), the problem is when someone won’t take “no” for an answer. I’ve had men and women keep persisting long after I made it clear I wasn’t interested.

    • Vagenda and Pee-ara

      I think Democrats have lost sight of the fact that people have a right to due process. It actually made me sad to see how Dems dog piled on Al Franken, for taking a dumb, prank photo, that he apologized for. He was a strong advocate for women and children, and his seat will probably be won by Tim Pawlenty. Thanks, Kirsten Gillibrand (former Republican).

      Personally, I tend to look at who is doing the accusing (political motivations?), how many accusers are there, is there a pattern of bad behavior, how egregious is the behavior, etc… i think people are innocent until proven guilty (unless there is a vast amount of evidence), and I extend that belief even to shitty Republicans.

      Dave Chappelle has a good bit about Bill Cosby. He says he wanted to believe Cosbt was innocent, but after the 10th accuser came forward, it got harder, and after the 25th woman came forward, you had to believe it.

      • Anna in PDX

        25 women is what it took for Chapelle to quit Team Cosby. But this country is so much more enlightened than the countries that have actual laws that women’s testimony is worth half of a man’s? At this point a two to one ratio would be one hell of an improvement.

        • Vagenda and Pee-ara

          That was Chappelle’s point – when there’s some smoke, there may be fire, but when there’s so much smoke you can’t breathe, it’s a damned inferno.

        • Vagenda and Pee-ara

          He was making a joke. The joke was that SOOOOOO many women came forward, that even if you WANTED to believe Cosby was innocent, it was impossible to continue after a certain number.

          For the record, I never liked Bill Cosby. I thought he was kind of creepy, and a hypocrite. He was a married man hanging out at the Playboy masnsion, and then lecturing other people about morality.

      • ltmcdies

        So what arbitrary number of accusations does it take ….exactly

        • Vagenda and Pee-ara

          I’m not sure if you’re a man or a woman, but if I told everyone on this board that you sexually assaulted me, should they believe me, just because I’m a woman? Would you want a fair trial, or would you be willing to let a mob decide if you are guilty?

          If I was the only woman in your entire exemplary life who had accused you, should I be believed? What if 3 other anonymous sources came forward?

          People who are jerks tend to follow a certain pattern. I’ve never believed Juanita Broaddrick that Bill Clinton raped her. Why? Because he’s not a rapist, and she’s mentally ill.

          Call me old fashioned, but I believe in due process, and a fair trial.

          • ltmcdies

            well I am a woman who was raped and here’s what I know..because I’m white, not a sex worker, was at home with her kids asleep in her bed when some fuckhead stranger broke in…I was believed.

            I got to go court and watch that little shit twist in the wind because I’m fucking smart and knew to preserve “evidence” But also ….

            I was a white girl at home in her bed, not at a party, not a person of colour, not someone with an addiction, not wearing the “wrong clothes” and my assailant was not a famous, powerful , armed with attorneys white man. That matters.

            I am fully cognizant that I got my day in court and the assailant got “due process” because of every factor I listed….I was the “right” kind of victim and more important “he was an acceptable assailant”

            eight accusation…eight women…Weinstein hasn’t seen the inside of court either…why give Franken a buy.

          • Vagenda and Pee-ara

            When I was a kid, maybe 10 or 11, I slept over a girl’s house (karen). I had literally no concept of sex, and hadn’t yet discovered the joys of masturbation (12ish for that). The girl took my hand and placed it between her legs. I was uncomfortable, because she became wet, and I was confused. This isn’t something I initiated, understood, or enjoyed, but I basically forgot about it. A year goes by, and I’m in junior high school. Another girl says to me “you’re a lesbian.” I said “what are you talking about (although at that time I suspected I might be)? She describes to me how I ran across a room and attacked this poor girl Karen. I suspect Karen may have been worried that I would tell people what had happened, so she said I attacked her, as a defensive move. As an adult, I had a woman do something similar, but I suspect it was because she was mentally ill. Neither time was it a case of people remembering things differently, it was a case of one person lying about what had happened. I’m sensitive to people being accused of crimes, where no evidence exists, and no crime was even committed. I also believe in due process.

            You asked me why I would give Franken a pass. Multiple reasons – his accuser has spent her entire life promoting misogyny (Hooters, Playboy, Fox), and I suspect she’s dealt with a fair number of creeps, yet somehow diminutive Al Franken managed to shove his tongue down her throat. I don’t picture Franken overpowering her, in fact, I think she probably could kick his ass. They were in a war zone, and I doubt they were unattended at a rehearsal. Thirty of Franken’s female co-workers defended him, which seems odd since creeps tend to be creeps at work. She kept claiming she was terribly humiliated by Franken’s prank photo. SHE released the photo, nobody would ever have seen it if she hadn’t released it. Also, she posed naked for Playboy, but was humiliated by someone PRETENDING to grope her? That sounds a bit preposterous. Also, I waited a few days to see if any of Franken’s co-workers would step forward, and not one did. He was an excellent senator, and an advocate for women, and was making the GOP, and Trump’s cabinet look like fools. I suspect Miss Tweeden got a nice, fat paycheck from Roger Stone.

            I am terribly sorry you were raped, and I know it was terribly traumatic, but don’t you think what Leeann Tweeden ALLEGED happened to her is not the same thing? I think equating a dumb photo with rape trivializes rape.

            You describe your rapist in a way that makes him sound young. Do you think you were his first victim? If he had gotten away with it, do you think you would have been his last? I don’t. People tend to repeat behavioral patterns, good or bad. That’s why I never believed the one woman who accused Bill Clinton of rape (also because I believe she’s mentally ill). If Clinton was a raspist, he wouldn’t have stopped at one.

            Again, I am very sorry for what happened to you. I’ve always thought rape is a crime that is one half of a degree less repugnant than murder.

          • sarafina

            Franken wasn’t accused of rape by 8 women. If I knew you I might be sorry for your experience, but women get raped every day. I’m sorry Franken stepped down and the truth won’t be revealed, but you were lucky you were the RIGHT kind of victim.

      • DT

        They did not pile on him for the lying Leann Tweeden story.

        • Old Man Yells at Cloud

          You are right. The pile on was for the Gillibrand 2020 primary campaign since if Al chose to run, she would have lost to him. Instead she handed 2020 to Trump if he serves that long.

        • Vagenda and Pee-ara

          What did they pile on him for?

          • Nenatopia

            The “pile on” didn’t start until there the allegations of inappropriate behavior started piling up. When it got to 8 women accusing him, that’s when folks started calling for him to step down.

            Franken was my Senator. I voted for him twice. I loved the job he did for Minnesota and for the country as a whole. And I think he did the right thing by resigning.

            And no, we will not be putting Tim Pawlenty in his seat.

          • Vagenda and Pee-ara

            Most of the women were anonymous, and the two who weren’t were Trump supporters. You didnt think it was a bit odd that Roger “Ratfucker” Stone knew about it before it happened? Or that it was strange that 31 women he worked with felt compelled to write a letter in his defense. I was waiting for someone who actually knew him to make an allegation, but that never happened. I wonder why a guilty man would insist on an ethics investigation?

            I’d give Pawlenty a pretty good chance of winning Franken’s seat for two reasons – money and name recognition. I hope the blue wave is real and crushes Pawlenty and the rest of them.

          • DT

            The six accusers after her.

          • Vagenda and Pee-ara

            The anonymous ones, or the two Trump supporters, who were taking photos in crowded places with him, but had no witnesses? I guess the 31 co-workers who wrote a letter defending him are probably liars who are covering up for him. A little weird that Roger Stone knew about it before anyone else, isn’t it?

          • DT

            You probably shouldn’t come at me, of all people, on this one. I’m still pretty upset about it myself.

          • Vagenda and Pee-ara

            Oh, don’t worry, I’m sure Tim Pawlenty will make a fine senator, and will be a tireless advocate for women.

      • DT

        So just keep your abuse under 10 people, just to be safe.

        • Vagenda and Pee-ara

          That was the joke – if that many people are saying you did something, chances are that you did it.

          Also, men who are harrassers/assaulters tend to be habitual offenders, so there are usually many victims.

    • sarafina

      Who thinks Andrew Sullivan’s thoughts on this subject are worth hearing/considering?

    • OTB

      The way to deal with this in a “just” way is to stop falsely equating a hypothetical persecution against a single imaginary “clumsy flirter” with the actual, real violence and threats that hundreds of millions of women are subjected to every single day.

      Second, you realize that your team “clumsy flirter” is meaningless on its face, and has no legal definition, or moral, civic, or any other measurable dimension except what YOU decide it is–so you’re not only diminishing the issue, but attempting to steal control of the language used to describe the problem, which is itself a huge part of the problem.

      Lastly, you Google the phrase “concern trolling” just in case you’re not aware of the term.

      I look forward to hearing more about this imaginary hypothetical “clumsy flirter” about whom we should all be alarmed and for whose safety and rights we must zealously guard, lest the hundreds of millions of actual, human sexual assault victims accidentally make a guy temporarily feel badly about himself. Priorities.

      • OTB

        Oh, and if you can, please explain how an imaginary false prosecution in this case is in any way different from being falsely accused for any other crime. People are unfortunately falsely accused of crimes they didn’t commit all the time; can you explain why “justice” is more important in this area compared to other crimes?

        • louwhitaker

          I already did. Due process, which was denied Franken and Garrison Keillor, among others. Sorry I was going too fast for you there, OTB.

          • OTB

            Nonsense. Neither was denied due process. MPR terminated Keillor after an internal investigation. Franken stepped down voluntarily. But just the idea that a couple of wealthy, powerful white guys couldn’t control the debate and skate through unscathed must be pretty terrifying to someone who imagines others called him an “evil misogynist” when no such slight was made.

          • louwhitaker

            Really? I guess you are serious that “Internal Investigation=Due Process”! This is ludicrous. More than one woman in my life has taken a harassment claim to the authorities, the institution in question launched an “internal investigation”, and the male in question was exonerated in a pro forma pseudo process. Apparently, it happens in the military all the time. Surely you will acknowledge that this sort of in-house process might on occasion err on the other side as well (haha…actually I realize by now that expecting you to approach anything in a remotely fair-minded manner is like expecting a carp to grow a pair of lungs and some legs, emerge from the water, and join my book club). The MPR investigation into Keillor was quite opaque. Maybe it was scrupulously fair, but we have no way of knowing; maybe it was a Stalinist kangaroo court, for all we know. To claim to know that it constituted due process is to presume to know something that you cannot possibly know. Which gets us back to the issue I was trying to raise in my first response to you–humility…

            “But just the idea that a couple of wealthy, powerful white guys couldn’t
            control the debate and skate through unscathed must be pretty
            terrifying to someone who imagines others called him an ‘evil
            misogynist'”. You know nothing about me, yet you presume to know so much! I guess you aren’t inclined to take any suggestions Re humility to heart, are you? For the record, no; I am not “terrified”.

            I am sure you will not be able to go without having the last word, OTB. Have at it; I have wasted enough time trying to have a dialog with a True Believer. You know what you think and have utter contempt for anybody who disagrees with you. How sad.

      • louwhitaker

        I’m sorry you don’t like the term “clumsy flirting”. It has meaning to me, and clearly a lot of other people, judging from this conversation. I think you might consider keeping your rhetoric down and having the humility to recognize that this issue is extremely problematic: “accidentally make a guy temporarily feel badly about himself.” Wow! Talk about a phrase that is “meaningless on its face”! A false accusation can destroy somebody’s career, ruin a life. False accusations do happen, and the falsely accused are victimized beyond just “accidentally make a guy temporarily feel badly about himself.” Which is why due process is so important. To recognize this does not make me an evil misogynist who has no concern for women (including women very close to me about whom I care deeply) who have undergone sexual harassment and assault.

  • IdiotsforPalin
  • DensityDestiny

    Speaking of lists, how about that list of actresses Harvey Weinstein branded difficult to work with because they didn’t think watching him masturbate was in their job description? How many of them couldn’t get hired after that? Where does that fall on the scale of witch hunt to McCarthyism?

    Time’s up, fuckers.

    • Raan

      I’m going to go with “HUAC blackballing”.

      • Angelina

        Go-o-gle is paying 97$ per hour,wi-t-h weekly pa-y-outs.You can al-s-o avail this.On tuesday I got a brand new Land Rover Range Ro-v-er from having earned $11752 this last four weeks..with-o-u-t any doubt it’s the mo-s-t-comfortable job I have ever done .. It s-o-unds unbelievable but you wont forgive y-o-urself if you don’t check it!ne85h:➺➺➺ http://GoogleInternetComunityFxPartTimeJobs/get/hourly ♥♥♥z♥♥♥c♥♥h♥r♥♥v♥r♥♥♥o♥v♥♥n♥♥m♥i♥♥♥u♥♥♥f♥♥h♥o♥♥♥h♥♥h♥♥♥o♥♥z♥o♥♥♥t♥g♥♥♥l♥♥♥v♥♥p:::::!vw182k:lwe

    • Lordpnut

      That might even be actionable.

      • Rosa

        Goo-g-le is pay-i-ng 97$ per hour,w-i-th weekly p-a-youts.Y-o-u can al-s-o avail this.On tues-d-ay I got a brand new Land Rover Range Rover from having earned $11752 this last four weeks..with-o-u-t any doubt it’s the most-comfortable job I have ever do-n-e .. It s-o-unds unbelievable but you wont forgive yourself if you don’t check it!ve583w:↠↠↠ http://GoogleNewNetJobsDailyWorkFromHome/find/jobs ♥♥♥e♥p♥p♥♥♥p♥♥♥q♥x♥♥♥u♥♥b♥♥♥d♥♥a♥i♥m♥♥q♥♥n♥♥♥b♥i♥y♥p♥♥♥m♥♥m♥♥♥n♥m♥♥♥f♥♥♥m♥♥♥t:::::!ve181q:lwe

        • Lordpnut

          Up yours

          • TundraGrifter

            Rosa – What have you done with Lori? I sent her the bail money to get her brother out the Mexican jail after he was hauled in on that phony drug charge and I haven’t heard from her since. Please tell me she’s OK! We’re scheduled to be meet in El Paso in a few weeks to get married and I’m worried about her.

  • Vagenda and Pee-ara

    How I wish Stormy Daniels would release a sex tape of her and Trump bumping uglies. I need to lose about 40 pounds, so I’d just play that on an endless loop. I bet the pounds would just melt right off!

    Apparently Donnie and Melania sleep in separate bedrooms. I bet she keeps an actuarial table next to her bed, and says a little prayer every night.

  • Turning 44 soon and I still have no accusations of sexual assault made against me. I
    really don’t understand why so many men think ‘not being a total fucking scumbag asshole’ is such a hard bar to clear.

    • TBP100

      Almost 64 here. No accusations in a long career in academia where I am often alone with students in my office for an hour at time with the door closed (private music lessons).

      • SadDemInTex

        Well….for the record…I think you should have a window in your door. I’ve known music profs who abused their situation and I’ve also known fellow students who were not emotionally stable and were both vulnerable to manipulation and who sought to involve profs in relationships which were really proxies for tragic, toxic family relationships (the desperate search for that approximation of love, approval).

        • TBP100

          I would certainly not object to that, but there aren’t windows in the office doors, and I don’t think the university is going to put them in any time soon. I’m well aware of the potential for difficulties that you cite and just do my best not to do anything that could possibly be misconstrued. But yes, I know these things have happened.

          • SadDemInTex

            I’m pretty sure both universities I attended had windows on the studios as well as the practice rooms. Juilliard only had windows on the practice rooms.

      • unclejeems

        Good on you, but I wouldn’t push my luck. I never consult with a female student–or a female colleague, for that matter–unless the door is open or another person is present. Better safe than sorry.

        • TBP100

          I get your point, but it’s really not feasible of music lessons.

          • unclejeems

            Yep, that would make a difference. Just be careful out there.

            Cheers!

    • C4TWOMAN

      The thing is most men aren’t. But it is odd alot have bought into this concern its like the weather and could strike at any moment.
      Hmm, kind of like they’re experiencing a moral panic…

  • Bananas Foster

    How the fuck can anybody who lived through the really scary AIDS years not realize that pulling off a condom SHOULD BE ILLEGAL?!

    • Itsatarp

      Oh, wait. It gets better. He’s poz. How someone in his situation can think this way is beyond me.

      • disqus_lWwzrwNaw6

        Andrew has a particularly sordid personal history in this context.

        https://www.thenation.com/article/andrew-sullivan-overexposed/

        He’s an unkind, self-important little man. He had his moment, as “The Gay Conservative.” He loved it, as any natural-born exhibitionist would. Then he became irrelevant.

        He wants another moment.

        • rachelmap

          He’s a slightly smarter Milo Yianoppolis.

          • Mehmeisterjr

            That’s like being the slightly taller garden gnome.

      • SadDemInTex

        Sometimes I wonder if he thinks that since someone infected him he should be able to screw the rest of the world and make everyone suffer.

        • Itsatarp

          It may be more like because he can afford the prohibitively expensive meds and healthcare then everyone can.

      • Bananas Foster

        Just… ah… I don’t even know how to respond.

        I had no idea he is HIV+.

        That does make that comment even weirder, yet possibly more understandable.

    • can still get herpes and hpv

      • Bananas Foster

        That is not a reasonable argument against condoms.

        • it’s a reasonable argument against promiscuity

          • theCryptofishist

            You may be in the wrong place. You want that other Recipe Hub and Dick Joke emporium, the one the church ladies run. Down the hall, two rights and you’re there.

          • So how long have you had the herp

          • Enoughisenough

            Actually up to 80% of humans on the planet have a herpes virus so not sure what your point is here?

          • Sorry about your herp, bro

          • stablegeniusahughes798

            Ever had a cold sore? Chicken pox? Then you have herpes, bro.

          • meanwhile 1 out of 6 people actually have herpes on their genitals and condoms don’t do a damn thing about it

          • 🛶🗣️ Mr Canoehead 🛶🗣️

            And wearing my seatbelt won’t protect me from athlete’s foot. What’s your point, assuming you have one?

          • Tiny kaiju

            All it takes is one encounter without a condom. Having more than a single sex partner in one’s life time is not the same as being promiscuous.

        • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

          He’s named after the duck dynasty asshole, so a real troll.

      • Tiny kaiju

        Condoms use can help prevent transmission of those also.

    • An Outhouse for the résistance

      He used troll for bare back when he knew he was pos.

    • SDGeoff3

      Because he is an asshole contrarian, and when you get a gay one, it can get really odd.

  • BoatOfVelociraptors

    I remember once digging in for round two, and fished out half of a condom. Thank God for plan B.

  • MikeyArmstrong

    Who is going to look out for all the PUA bros?

  • Resistance Fighter Callyson

    Not every woman is going to go “OH, that guy known for being handsy and sending creepy DMs? I don’t want to work with him then!” — but some will.

    And even those who choose to take the job, for whatever reason, will be aware that they need to take steps to protect themselves against the asshole FFS. Fuck Andrew Sullivan with a chainsaw of votes.

  • sarafina

    If this is the Shitty Men in Media list I read the author’s reasoning for writing/publishing it yesterday. She was correct. Like Robyn said, all we women have is other women providing information so we can make decisions about the men we want/need to work with.

  • C4TWOMAN

    I don’t have much helpful to add. It’s knowing the persistent threat of predators was waiting in the wings was why I never bought into girl socialization. No matter how much older women warned or tried to gender police/shame me into inaction.
    I remember this one otherwise sane family friend who I sorta respected, who tried to shut down my assertion if any boy tried to grab my tits, I’d deck him. “No, no, you tell him to not do that.”
    Lolwut? I walked away from that convo wondering wtf she thought we were talking about. At no point did I doubt I was right. Needless to say I never confided anything like that with her again.
    In these post Weinstein times I do take satisfaction in knowing my instincts were correct and never ignoring them.

    • Zombishroom

      You have always been correct. You’re the sane one. Our country is insane. And especially the current president.

      • stablegeniusahughes798

        At this point in our country’s history, if I had a little girl, she’d be in self-defense classes when she turned 5.

        • C4TWOMAN

          And the thing is that’s exactly the attitude raising boys. The question is, knowing girls are disproportionately targeted by predators, why progressives as a collective have been resistant to adopting this tactic.
          I suspect values dissonance. Or the fear being agressive for defense will automatically lead to turning into an asshole all the time…

  • does this actually happen

  • MANGO CRIMES

    I can’t believe that this guy, a racist asshole for the last two+ decades, has turned out to be an asshole.

  • Edith Prickly, Stable Genius

    Why is Andrew Sullivan still getting published?

    • Zombishroom

      Token gay conservative.

      • Outzie

        Odd! I always thought Milo Yiannapolis was the token gay-intergenerational sex conservative

        • Mehmeisterjr

          He had to yield that title when it became financially counterproductive.

        • Bitter Scribe

          Milo is the token provocateur. Sullivan is the guy who thoughtfully tells you why “Islamofascism” is a mortal threat.

        • amrak63

          Milo Yabbadabbadoofus is trying to be the next Andrew Sullivan.

      • Edith Prickly, Stable Genius

        Being a token conservative is a really sweet affirmative action gig, isn’t it? As long as you can handle the cognitive dissonance, I guess.

  • Kurt Weil

    It’s the comments to his crap that are truly telling. Check this one out:

    Odd how women with “no power” can ruin innocent men’s lives with such ease.

    Interesting, too, how cowardly these women acted for decades, only surging out in lynch-mobs to hang the latest Emmett Till.

    Feminists say females are strong, individualistic, combat-ready, Ranger-qualified, and every bit as tough as men. Meanwhile, in reality, they remained mute for 10-20-30-40 years, allegedly letting others be abused. Apparently GI Jane, who swears she’d never break under enemy torture, couldn’t fend off a pass with “No thank you. I’m not interested.”

    Plus it’s not like women don’t lie, even about rape: behold the liars at UVA, Columbia, Duke, and elsewhere.

    Perhaps there are good reasons not to let females in positions of power where hysteria, excuse-making, etc. are frowned upon.

    • BeverlyCrusher’sWig

      I’ll just be screaming into a pillow if anyone needs me.

    • You should ice that burn

      Where to begin?
      Emmit Till did nothing to the nice white lady, she later admitted that she lied about it. How you can invoke his name as a cautionary tale given the context of the “#metoo movement is non-sensical and disrespectful in the extreme. He was murdered for being a black male in the proximity of a white woman. period. There is no parallel here. Get over yourself, the rest of your comment with regards to the toughness of women is stupid in a couple of ways. The tough gal who took no shit from the handsy mid-level managers was fired under some other pretense and lost her apartment. The patriarchal white culture of the ’50 into the ’70s and beyond built a firewall if you will to too much equality for minorities and especially women. It’s employment insecurity, and as an entitled pasty white guy you probably can’t concieve of it.
      The last bit about “good reasons not to let females in positions of power” has earned you a lifetime membership to the Brotherhood Of The Terminally Undateable*
      *by any but the neediest low self-esteem basket-cases.

      • stablegeniusahughes798

        You didn’t do well in reading comprehension, did you? You, and a whole lot of other people, need to get over YOURSELVES.

        • C4TWOMAN

          Dude, wtf?

        • Dude should have used quotes. Then the comprehension would have come in to play. As it stands it looks like he is stating that.
          Looks like you didn’t do well in grammar class, did you?

          • stablegeniusahughes798

            Yet, I was able to understand exactly what the OP meant, with my lack of grammar class and all. Because I read the first sentence.

    • amrak63

      Making a late bid for Dishonorable Mention on the next “This Week In Garbage Men”, Mr. Weil?

      https://i.imgur.com/5wnztxh.jpg

    • psychobroad

      Fuck you.

      • amrak63

        I deleted the comment which I originally made here because I recognized my goof.

        • C4TWOMAN

          I decided to leave mine with an edit. With any luck a lurking troll might take the bait….

      • Vacuous Virgina

        Gently with a chainsaw 😂😂😂

      • stablegeniusahughes798

        Your reading comprehension skills aren’t to good, are they?

    • C4TWOMAN

      Sorry I didn’t reply earlier. I was busy having a life.
      Wow, lots to understand pack. First I’m a veteran. Not a Seal or any special forces, tho. Everyone will break given enough time.
      You seem to have some rather common and dare I saying boring assumptions about female capabilities. I’m average height, and weight #184 and I am not fat. Last year I was deadlifting #270-#275. Sadly a wrist strain kept me from getting to #300 by the end of the year, but if you train you know that’s how it goes sometimes. Needless to say I’m as strong as most men my size and I rarely have problems–though I body slammed the last problem into the aisle on a bus and that was hilarious.
      That is not in any way to imply women who do have problems are at fault. A combination of crappy socialization and crappy physical education railroads many women into vulnerable positions.
      The person who is always 100 percent responsible for assault is the predator.
      Glad I could clear that up for you!
      Now, that didn’t address all your points, but it hit the highlights of your assumptions, and as I said, I have this life thing, so I’m going to go back and do that.
      Kthxbai!
      😸

    • conlakappa

      I really hate how Emmett Rill and Carolyn Bryant are now dropped into conversation like it’s a thing to do. I guess it was a logical next step after the likes of Imus were said to be “lynched,” because [temporarily] losing one’s job is totes the same as being beaten to a pulp/burned/hanged/genitals removed.

  • Zombishroom

    I must admit I want to hatefuck Andrew Sullivan. He really enjoys his white privilege.

    • Jeffery Campbell

      Well careful. He’s not much for condoms either….

    • SDGeoff3

      Let him know you are depriving him of the honor, and watch him beg.

    • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

      Use an industrial strength condom, just to be on the safe side.

  • An Outhouse for the résistance

    Andrew Sullivan has always been a shit person.

  • JMP

    Sullivan is, like William F. Buckley before him, a great beneficiary of the dumb stereotype that only poor uneducated white people are bigots; he’s a giant misogynist and racist, but because he uses big words, has an English accent and went to all the finest schools, people treat him like he’s some sort of respected intellectual and not the hate-filled vile shit he actually is.

    • OTB

      Yes.

    • psychobroad

      Is the GOP’s token Gay, just like Carson is their token black

  • Jo Mathie

    I literally can count on one hand the number of women I know who haven’t been sexually harassed in the work place. It’s horrible how normalized it is. It shouldn’t be. It should be talked about. Women (and men) have been quiet for far too long. It took a BBC drama where a woman was raped and no-one believed her for me to have a breakdown and tell my mum what happened to me on two different occasions in the workplaces ( it was just being cornered and groped and I left the jobs). Sullivan is a POS. You don’t need to be “brutally raped” to feel less than a human and I’m not even going to get into the removal of a condom as being no big deal. (Also what does sexual harassment have to do with Communism?)

    • Mehmeisterjr

      And Sullivan goes waaaaaaay beyond defending what he and he alone defines as “brutal rape.”

      Slipping off a condom secretly? On purpose?

      What is that?

      A friendly caress?

      This would make for interesting any pending or futur4e lawsuit against Andrew Sullivan, I’m just saying.

      I haven’t noticed him so much lately as a commentating guest and I’m beginning to figure out why.

      • psychobroad

        I caught that too, is brutal rape sort of like forcible rape, as opposed to consensual rape or she was asking for it right?

    • handyhippie65

      every woman i have ever been with had a story of past sexual assault, even my sister was molested as a child by one of my mother’s boyfriends. it still makes me feel sick inside thinking about it. even though i had nothing to do with what happened to them, i apologized to them because i figured the fucking wastes of flesh and bone who did it, never did. and i will apologize to anyone who reads this for the same reason. you did not deserve what happened, and it was in no way your fault. sorry, i have to go. i can’t see the screen through my tears.

      • Jo Mathie

        It’s always reassuring to see “woke” men standing up for their fellow humans, handy. My brother took the news of what happened to me really badly – he’s a big bloke but he’s a brilliant brother, adores our mum and his wife and I think the fact that he wasn’t there to protect me makes him scared for his little daughter. (I did manage to get one of the businesses taken off the recommended places at the job center so that’s not much but something).

        • handyhippie65

          i was an adult before i knew about my sister. the one responsible was dead by then. i know, because i looked for him. i suppose we were both lucky in that. he would have died very badly and in great pain, and i probably would have died in prison. i hope you have managed to move on from your situation. i have since learned to forgive. it is not for them as much as it is for you. so that you can let it go, move on and find peace. i truly am sorry, and hope you have peace and happiness for the rest of your days. it may sound kinda sappy, but i am a hippie after all.

  • Mehmeisterjr

    But, but, just to be fair, don’t we all remove a condom once in a while?

    Uhhhhhhh. No we don’t. – The American Society of Non-Rapists

  • theblackdog

    Andrew Sullivan is a garbage human being who when he gets called out on his bullshit hides behind the “Feel sorry for me, I’m gay and I have HIV” shield. It’s known he’s a garbage human being and yet he still gets paid to spew his garbage opinions. He’s one person I wish would basically get blacklisted from being published.

    • javadavis

      Whoa, wait – he’s HIV positive and still doesn’t see a problem with secretly removing a condom during sex? The more you know, the more sleazy (to be overly kind) some people seem to be.

      • conlakappa

        Yes, yet still has tried to get hookups to bareback.

  • Andrew Sullivan is a walking, talking reminder that not all gay men are on Team Women. Some of them hate us just as much as any hetero, Republican, misogynist piece of shit.

    • stablegeniusahughes798

      Yep. I got called a “fish” once, for no reason. Dude had had a few too and apologised, in person, the next day. And a Fag Hag once by the gay friends of my one gay friend. Both times all I could think was “WOW!” and GTFO.

    • starfanglednut

      Oh, gay men can be viciously misogynist. I’ve encountered it more than once.

  • Bitter Scribe

    Someone remind me again who Andrew Sullivan is and why anyone should give a fuck what he thinks?

    • TundraGrifter

      On second thought – make like a stone and skip it.

    • Jamie Stewart

      He’s one of our least useful exports, I believe- a nauseating expat Tory boy who decided to peddle his abhorrent wares abroad like a travelling arms dealer.

      Sorry about that.

  • psychobroad

    Andrew Sullivan is a disgusting POS who should not be received in polite company.

    • handyhippie65

      i seriously doubt any of his friends are polite.

  • Mamayi

    Andrew also wrote that he sees “taking credit for ideas of women of color,” and “multiple employee affairs” as a “minor offense” that has nothing to do with the workplace and yet Andrew sees calling out their behavior as a major affront to men.

    Taking credit for someone else’s ideas is a major workplace offense.

  • Sharon Cooper

    “Yes, Bob locked Alice in a broom closet and groped her at the Christmas party, but she shouldn’t have reported it to HR! What about Bob’s FEELINGS?”

  • handyhippie65

    i remember sexual assault training in the army in the 80’s. when the sergeant described to the all male class about being assaulted by a female superior, some of the other soldiers said what was the problem? they thought that would be cool. then he asked, what if she were fat, and ugly?(his words, not mine) it was then that they saw the light. it doesn’t matter whether they are a model, or not. unwanted attention is unwanted, period. simply touching someone without invitation is assault, sexual or not. my mother taught me that when i was first a teen. i wondered, why didn’t theirs?

    • C4TWOMAN

      I remember sexual assault training to, in boot camp. They were very clear about procedure and were taking it seriously. That’s why it baffled me when I heard all the problems later, in the Bush years.

  • OrdinaryJoe

    Why should we care what Sullivan has to say about the rules on workplace interaction between men and women? I say if you aren’t in the game, you don’t get an opinion about the rules.

    • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

      I view old men, and women too, well past reproductive years telling women what they can do with their bodies the same way.

      • TundraGrifter

        Last week I heard Boss “I wasn’t wrong; I was misinformed” BlunderRush explaining the African-American experience. Different ocean – same boat.

        • Natalie Au Natural Hedonist

          That so called man is an oxygen thief. His motto should be Always wrong, Oxymoron.

    • DrShitferbrains

      I want to say two things to this point: yeah, you’re right, its Andrew Sullivan, gag me with a spoon, fuck him. 100%. But gay men do live these issues too. When I was 19 years old cleaning hotel rooms I had to let my manager feel my butt whenever he wanted on pain of homelessness.

    • Nenatopia

      This isn’t about “rules on workplace interaction between men and women”. It’s about harassment and abuse, which isn’t just a m/f thing. Gay folks can behave inappropriately toward other gay folks. Het folks can behave inappropriately with other same-gender het folks. Gay folks can behave inappropriately with opposite-gender folks.

    • brucej

      Well, in my opinion he lost any right to speak in civilized society when he accused me ( and a hell of a lot of other people) of treason for being against the war in Iraq, that he was happy sending other people off to die in. “The decadent Left in its enclaves on the coasts is not dead—and may well mount what amounts to a fifth column”…

      That cemented my opinion of him as someone who needs a close encounter with a rusty pitchfork…

  • Damn I bet Liam Neeson (oh and Condoleezza Rice) wish they had read this before opening up thier pie-holes.

    • Douglas White

      Screw Liam Neeson. Anyone trying to justify what Dustin Hoffman did as “Cast members of a play become family and people in family’s sometimes do stupid things” won’t ever be getting a dollar of my money at the box office ever again. EVER. What Hoffman did was HORRIFYING!! He put his finger INSIDE the vagina of a girl under age 18 WHILE SHE WAS WORKING knowing that she was miked and couldn’t say anything. What effing planet does Liam Neeson think THAT is acceptable on exactly????

  • PsycWench

    Whenever I read men with this “being touched isn’t a big deal, some women are gang raped” I want to take $50 from them. “What? Some people have much more taken from them”
    I haven’t worked out how to take the $50 though. Please advise.

    • Swampgas_Man

      Use a sap. Why not? Some men are hit over the head with a big rock! These guys are getting off easy, according to their principles.

    • C4TWOMAN

      Some sort of mask and a firearm/finger in the pocket is traditional.
      Saying “this is a stick up” is optional.

  • C4TWOMAN

    On reflection I think this is a moral panic…by reactionary men.

    It’s all there: the hysteria, the scapegoating, the persistent denial resistance to acknowledge the world is changing and the deep anxiety about their place if they aren’t guaranteed to be at the top of the food chain by virtue of being male. Also the projection and denial. Finally gamergate makes sense.

    Thanks Mr Sullivan for calling attention to this dynamic.

    • Sakonyachen

      The comical part is that they worry about losing the free pass to dominance based on their gender. These tools are still doormats to An average shmuck.

      You can’t lose what you’ve never had.

    • HazooToo

      Funny how often it’s women on the wrong side of the moral panic, isn’t it?

  • Dutchman

    Just my two cents on this but considering the ongoing assault on a woman’s reproductive rights from every corner I’d have to believe that condom removal during sex is battery at a minimum. Not to mention stupid on about 40 levels.

    • Rooster Cogburn105

      Not in Cali, per the statues:

      240 C.P.C. Assault “An unlawful attempt, coupled with present ability, to inflict a violent injury on the person of another”

      242. Battery C.P.C. A completed assault

      Had to memorize these, as you get a lot of “he touched me and I want him arrested for assault, calls”

      If no evidence, I just deadpanned: “if he touched, you, it’s not assault, it’s MAYBE battery”

      Might fit the reckless endangerment statue, Cali doesn’t have that one

  • TundraGrifter

    Guy with muttonchop (or, if you are a Civil War reenactor, Burnsides) whines about something being “Victorian?” How gives a fuck?

  • Boojum

    Wait. Is there an actual list? I’ve been washing my hair for the past few weeks.

    • Nenatopia

      Yes. It is titled “Shitty Media Men”. Its creator recently came forward, as she was about to be outed by Harpers.

  • James Baskin

    Da da da dant da daaaaaaaaaaaaaa….. Rogaine

  • Neil Krupnick

    It has never mattered what side Andrew Sullivan was on…he’s always been an asshole.

    • napalmnacey

      Yeah I’ve despised him for years.

  • WIDTAP

    Here’s a thought for my fellow men: How about not being handsy with coworkers in the first place. Believe it or not, women in professional environments will accept a handshake as a greeting or farewell just as readily as men do.

  • The only ones who seem to be in panic are men.
    Hm. Maybe Andrew has something in his past?

    • conlakappa

      Other than more than once being caught requesting bareback on M2M hookup sites?I think he has an issue with condoms. Throwing that into the mix seems too random.

  • crawff

    I have always been baffled by the handsy thing. What in god’s name do they believe will follow. “Oh Frank, when you clumsily cupped my left buttock, as you gave me a friendly hug goodbye, the earth moved”. Is it learned? Are there men who compare notes and techniques. Throughout my life I have hungout with all types but have never had a guy get a little tight and has never asked if I …..what do you call it? Those who dismiss “handsy”, as a child I have vague memories of a couple of adult men getting handsy with me and still vividly remember the disgust and sense of a serious violation of my person. To have this happen constantly is not a mere personality quirk of the offender.

    • DrShitferbrains

      I’m sorry that happened to you. It happened to me a lot too. It’s never too late to name names.

  • Nenatopia

    There are conversations we should be having in the wake of #MeToo. We should be talking about how incredibly widespread harassment, assault and abuse is in the workplace and elsewhere, and about why folks who’ve been subjected to this have been reluctant to come forward. We should be talking about what we can do to stop this crap from happening, and how we can support people who are subjected to this crap.

    Instead, most of the conversation seems to be about the effect that the allegations are having on past and potential harassers. Are we being too harsh on these alleged perps? Is it fair to hold people accountable today for behavior that they got away with in the past? Where are the lines between abuse, harassment, unwelcome behavior, and whining about things that are no big deal, and isn’t most of this the latter? And there’s been plenty of my all-time favorite response to harassment/assault/abuse – that the victims of this crap need to take responsibility for being so irresistibly victimizable and make themselves less harassment-worthy.

    You know what I haven’t heard? An alleged perp make a decent apology for their behavior. I haven’t heard any of that. At all.

  • Katamount

    A Catholic conservative pushing back on a women’s movement? Shocker! /s

  • Josh Di Donato

    Okay, but who is Andrew Sullivan? I honestly don’t know who that is, and now I have to research who he is to find out? No fair! Just say who that is in the article! Signed, Your devoted fan for real.

  • napalmnacey

    Seeing people’s attitudes to this in this comments section, and your rage, is so comforting. It’s been a shitbag fire on social media due to recently outed skeezy celebs and I was pretty badly triggered by one conversation and now I just want to forget that sexual assault is a thing that exists. Can I be 5 again and collect Jem dolls and learn how to draw ponies? I’d fucking like that.

    TL;DR Thank you for your anger. <3

Previous articleYour Weekly Top Ten Cannot Get Over Revelation That Trump Is Racist
Next articleTrump Was ALLEGEDLY Banging Porn Star While Wife Was Pregnant. Allegedly.