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No Hue, Wayne! Hue, Garth!
There’s a man with a gun over there telling me I’ve got to beware. Of clichés.

Now that Yr Wonkette has thrown a bunch of clichés at the topic, you’ll actually be glad to know that in their new 10-part, 18-hour documentary The Vietnam War, Ken Burns and Lynn Novick mostly manage to avoid slipping into familiar tropes about that war America lost. So much of what we think about when we think of the war in Vietnam has become familiar through repetition that Burns and Novick are keen to grab us gently by the eyeballs and make us look at it with a fresh perspective — yes, even the stuff we’ve seen before.

The first episode, set to air tonight on PBS, underlines the point with its title: “Déjà Vu (1858-1961)” (that’s from the earliest French colonial days to the first American troops. There’s some summarizing). A few minutes in, there’s a sometimes-jarring sequence of iconic scenes from Vietnam, played in reverse: helicopters leap from the sea onto the deck of a Navy ship, a North Vietnamese tank backs out of the US Embassy compound (thoughtfully putting the gate back up as it leaves), bombs are pulled out of explosions and rise up to rejoin a jet flying backwards to its base, just like the bit in Slaughterhouse-Five where Billy Pilgrim experiences a WW II movie in reverse:

When the bombers got back to their base, the steel cylinders were taken from the racks and shipped back to the United States of America, where factories were operating night and day, dismantling the cylinders, separating the dangerous contents into minerals. Touchingly, it was mainly women who did this work. The minerals were then shipped to specialists in remote areas. It was their business to put them into the ground, to hide them cleverly, so they would never hurt anybody ever again.

So yes, new perspective. While we were waiting to get our press access for the new documentary, we went back and binge-rewatched most of the excellent 1983 PBS documentary, Vietnam: A Television History. Don’t worry, even though we taught first-year college writing, this won’t turn into a compare/contrast essay on that series and the new one.

But it’s certainly no coincidence that both films frame their introductory episodes with a shot of Washington’s Vietnam Veterans Memorial (still quite new when the earlier doc was filmed), followed by variations on the question, What the hell were we fighting for? In the 1983 series, it was a simple recitation of the stats by voiceover narrator extraordinaire Will Lyman: “Two and a half million Americans fought in Vietnam and 58,000 Americans died there. Why?” Burns and Novick let former Congressman Max Cleland ask the question, citing Viktor Frankl: “To live is to suffer. To survive is to find meaning in suffering. And for those of us who suffered because of Vietnam, that’s been our quest ever since.”

Ken Burns has his own special task when it comes to avoiding cliché: We all know by now what a Ken Burns documentary looks and sounds like, so what can he and Novick do to make this one feel like the “Ken Burns” style, but not a parody of itself? For starters, unlike The Civil War or Baseball, there are no on-camera historians or cultural experts to explain things to us. And unlike most documentaries about recent history, there aren’t any high-profile generals or politicians to interview — we hear from veterans (from the U.S. and from both North and South Vietnam), from journalists who covered the war, from protesters and from families of soldiers who didn’t come back, but there’s no John Kerry or John McCain here (Henry Kissinger is inescapable, but stays safely confined to Nixon-era news video). Burns told the New York Times he didn’t want anyone with “an interest in having history break the way they want it to break.”

It’s a smart move — since the Official Voices of Authority proved to be so consistently untrustworthy when it came to Vietnam, best to confine their spin doctoring safely to videotape and the written record.

While Peter Coyote is back doing narration duty, there are no actors recreating the voices of people reading letters or diaries, with a single exception, in the case of a soldier whose recreated letters — and the fact that his story is framed through interviews with his mom and sister — are spoiler warning enough regarding how his tour of duty ended. There’s also a distinct lack of fiddle music. Instead, the series has original music by Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross, and additional music by Yo-Yo Ma and the Silk Road Ensemble. Plus, of course, the inevitable rock music of the period, because apparently no one is allowed to ever make a movie about Vietnam without dragging out “For What It’s Worth” or “Turn! Turn! Turn!” one more time. At least it’s mostly good cliché music, and the Really Big Pop Hits are mostly reserved for the credits.

But we don’t need to hear any readings from LBJ’s diary — we’ve got tapes. Burns and Novick supplement the news clips and narration with frequent excepts from White House recordings made by Johnson and Nixon, in which we hear them talking with aides about this damned war and why can’t they just not have to deal with it anymore, please. And then the aide points out that quitting would make America look weak, so that’s why the war went on for damn ever, until we finally did leave and ended up looking weak, but with thousands more Americans and hundreds more thousands of Vietnamese dead.

One historic LBJ tape Burns and Novick don’t include, for some reason, is the one where he orders some pants:

You’d think a man who could explain to the maker of Haggar slacks all the necessary details of his bunghole and where his nuts hang might be a little more able to drop his ego and get the hell out of an unwinnable war.

As ever with Burns, it’s the personal stories of the people caught up in the big historic events — combined with the archival footage — that really brings the documentary to life. Tonights first episode actually manages to pull off an amazing bit of first-person perspective right in the middle of a history lesson about French colonial rule in Vietnam by jumping forward over half a century: One moment, we’re being told the early-20th century French colonizers barely regarded their Vietnamese subjects as human, then the next, we’re hearing from Marine John Musgrave, one of the most compelling of the vets the documentary helps us come to know, who admits, with decades’ worth of perspective and shame, that when he was in the country he felt “pure hatred” for the Vietnamese, because he was terrified. “And the scareder I got, the more I hated them. I was an 18-year-old Marine rifleman with the ink still wet on my high school diploma, I didn’t want to shame myself in front of my buddies, but I was so scared. I felt like I was holding onto my honor by my fingernails the whole time I was there.”

Those jump-cuts from old-timey Vietnamese history to memories of Americans who served in the war that we narrowly think of as the Vietnam War are an effective little shorthand for the recursive history of Vietnam’s occupiers — same stupid, different decades. It’s enough déjà vu to set Yossarian’s head spinning.

There are also lots of voices from both North and South Vietnam, including amazing interviews with North Vietnamese veterans (among others) about the battle of Hue, during the Tet Offensive. The two North Vietnamese men are remarkably frank in talking about a massacre of some 2,800 South Vietnamese officials and their families, along with “reactionaries,” low-level government workers, and civilians who simply got arrested for being in the wrong place. Says one of the men, an NVA veteran, “Please be careful making your film, because I could get in trouble” for putting the lie to Hanoi’s official narrative that only Americans and Saigon government forces committed atrocities. There’s also a woman who fought as a Viet Cong guerilla, who seems a bit hesitant about just how much she wants to tell the American filmmakers about shooting American soldiers, but goes right ahead — it was war.

It’s not all blood and hate and horror (though what with being a war, yeah, it’s mostly that) — there’s plenty of dark irony to go around, like the anecdote about an old Vietnamese man who greeted one of the first columns of Marines to move out from Da Nang by running out and shouting “Vivez les Français!” — he honestly thought the French were back.

Then there are moments of jaw-dropping absurdity, as when Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara visited South Vietnam to endorse General Nguyen Khan, who had just taken power in a coup. Khan gave a speech that ended with “Vietnam — A Thousand Years!” McNamara, to be supportive, shouted what he thought was the same phrase, but his mastery of Vietnamese tones was more than a bit off: What he shouted more or less translated to “The little ducky wants to lie down!” Top make matters worse, McNamara and an American officer, both much taller than Khan, took the new president’s hands in theirs and raised them in what was supposed to be triumph, but looked more like they were trying to prop up the sleepy little duck. The Vietnamese audience barely kept from falling on the floor laughing.

Just like The Civil War and Burns and Novick’s 2007 WW II documentary The War, The Vietnam War is an absolute must-see, the an amazingly humane examination of an amazingly inhumane war and the people who fought in it, as well as those who fought against it. Like Rick Perlstein’s book Nixonland, it’s sure to be a go-to text for understanding how our current culture wars and politics have developed. The Vietnam War probably won’t settle any arguments — and it certainly won’t win over the keyboard Rambos who insist “they wouldn’t let us win” — but it will at least make discussions of what the hell it was all about better-informed.

Yr Wonkette, like PBS, depends on support from our audience, and we don’t get any grants from foundations just yet. Click here so we’ll be able to keep trading Apocalypse Now quotes with you!

UPDATE: Also worth mentioning: If you have a Vietnam story to share (or you want more info on the show), the series website has a “Share Your Story” section.

The Vietnam War, a film by Ken Burns and Lynn Novick. Airs on PBS Sunday, September 17 through Thursday, September 21 & Sunday, September 24 through Thursday, September 28. Check local listings here. Available for streaming online while the series airs; schedule and viewing at PBS.org. Series available on DVD/Bluray at ShopPBS. Companion book, The Vietnam War: An Intimate History, by Geoffrey C. Ward, available at the linky, with a nice Amazon kickback to Yr Wonkette. Update: After the initial run, They’ll do a one-episode-per Sunday rebroadcast starting October 3; each episode will be streaming at PBS.org for a week after it airs.

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  • chiefkurtz

    I’ll watch it, but God help me if I hear Hendrix’s version of “All Along The Watchtower” over footage of a village being carpet bombed. That shit’s been played out.

    • For a change, they could play it over footage of Nixon giving a speech.
      Would be closer to the intent

    • doktorzoom

      I haven’t yet watched the whole series (I LOVE having a “press pass!”), so I don’t know where it appears, but the NYT review confirms “All Along the Watchtower” is in there. My guess is that it’ll be over the credits to an episode, which, as I say, is where Burns has put most of the Big Evocative Hits. On the other hand, “It’s a Hard Rain Gonna Fall” is in the first five minutes of Episode 1, so who knows?

      • Celtic_Gnome

        Watchmen did a good job with “All Along the Watchtower.” If they’re going to do it in the series, they should do it like that.

  • Martini Ambassador 🍸

    Good review. Sounds like a powerful and worthwhile series. But I refuse to watch anything where I might learn something. (I kid, you’ve convinced me to record it and save it for when I’m feeling more adult.)

  • Spotts1701, Nothingburger Chef

    “What did we do wrong in Vietnam? We pulled out! Huh? Not a very manly thing to do is it? When you’re fucking people, you gotta stay in there and fuck ’em good. Fuck ‘em all the way, fuck ‘em ‘til the end, stay in there and keep fucking ’em until they’re all dead. We left a few women and children alive in Vietnam and we haven’t felt good about ourselves since!” – George Carlin

    • Angela Ruzzo

      In 1969, when I was about 13, I went to do some research for a school paper at the local university library, and while I was sitting at a desk in the stacks I studied the college student graffiti on the wall. Someone had written “Nixon’s father should have pulled out too.” I didn’t get it at the time, had to ask my mother what it meant.

      • Three Finger Salute

        Now cross it out and write “Trump”.

        • Angela Ruzzo

          Funny, I was thinking the same thing. Great minds think alike.

  • Will be watching. Will let you know how much I can watch without breaking shit.

    • Angela Ruzzo

      I’m going to DVR it – that way when I get angry I can pause my viewing.

      • Unmutual Tetsu Kaba

        Always a good plan.

  • TJ Barke
  • natoslug

    I’m waiting for the Angry Aliens “30 Seconds with Bunnies” version. The original requires far too long an attention sp- hey, I need more coffee!

  • TundraGrifter

    The most powerful documentary I’ve ever seen remains “Hearts and Minds.” It’s essential watching about the war in Viet Nam.

    • doktorzoom

      Still on my own list of must-sees. Or at least Must-see agains; I’m pretty sure I saw it, or part of it, in college; it seemed drearily tendentious to me at the time, but it’s also possible I’m thinking of some other movie that I’m misremembering as Hearts and Minds.

      Memory is weird, which is why I love Errol Morris’s documentaries, too.

      • foiled again

        I must have watched The Fog Of War a dozen times.

        • doktorzoom

          Also brilliant.

          Me, sitting at computer last night: You mean I CAN’T write a 4000-word review?

      • TundraGrifter

        I think if you’d seen it you’d remember it. It is very one-sided – no doubt about it. It isn’t subtle. But that was what was needed at the time. The film makers wanted to make a point and they sure as hell did.

      • Celtic_Gnome

        Stephen King said that memory was the most facile liar of all.

        Then he got introduced to Donald Trump.

    • Angela Ruzzo

      Is “Alice’s Restaurant” a documentary? No, I guess not. It made a big impression on me, though.

  • doktorzoom

    And speaking of cliché, there’s this, from the NYT review of the series:

    But you could argue that this predictability has a purpose. Mr. Burns is willing to risk obviousness because his project is not to find surprising twists on American history. It’s to create a historical canon in the most broadly acceptable terms.

    This might in part be public-TV centrism, but it’s also an ideology. Mr. Burns’s films assume that it’s still possible for Americans to have an agreed-on baseline — on government, war, race and culture — from which to go forward.

    In relatively peaceful times, this approach could seem banal, as if the films are arguing for pieties that everyone already agrees on. In — well, times like now — it can seem naïve to think that there’s any fact so unobjectionable it can’t be litigated by opposed camps. In the divides the war rended, you can see the swellings of today’s impenetrable political bubbles.

    The saddest thing about this elegiac documentary may be the credit it extends its audience. “The Vietnam War” still holds out hope that we might learn from history, after presenting 18 hours of evidence to the contrary.

    That’s such a terrific observation that I had to try really hard not to give up on doing my own review, or worse, just plagiarize it.

    • I for one am glad you held out. Because “Gee, showing history as history is too partisan anymore” is some serious BS right there.

    • Villago Delenda Est

      Proof we haven’t learned from history: Iraq and Afghanistan.

      • Three Finger Salute

        …and now Syria, Yemen, North Korea, Iran, Palestine (“by proxy”)… wherever the fuck else we feel like blowing shit up on a day that ends in Y. United States Canada Mexico Panama Haiti Jamaica Peru…

        • Celtic_Gnome

          Help us, Chuck and Nancy. You’re our only hope.

  • BadKitty904

    When we studied this war in high-school history class, “What were we fighting for?” was the central question of that curriculum section. We never came up with a viable answer.

    • OutOfOrbit

      there was none

    • Villago Delenda Est

      Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

      • Three Finger Salute

        War is peace, ignorance is strength, MAGA is covfefe.

      • Good_Gawd_Yall

        THIS is perfect. PERFECT.
        I take my hat off to you, VDE!

        • Villago Delenda Est

          Not original with me, I fear, but it captures how stupid this entire operation is.

    • Three Finger Salute

      Absolutely nuthin’

      …except $$$$$ and killin’ commies.

    • Angela Ruzzo

      When I was in high school we were still fighting this war. We never studied it at all. Even when I went to college in1974 we didn’t study it. We TALKED about it a lot, though.

      • Villago Delenda Est

        I was assigned to read The Pentagon Papers in the 9th grade. While Vietnam was still on (“Vietnamization” had just started).

        • Angela Ruzzo

          I read that too in high school. I didn’t fully understand it, so I read it again 10 years later and what a difference that 10 years made.

    • coozledad

      We were fighting to keep the colonial infrastructure that had recently been propped up by the Vichy French and The IJA. Post WWII the French kept the Japanese on as administrators for awhile. It was about rubber plantations and returning colonial landlords their overseas possessions.

      But it was no longer a war where the native inhabitants could be slaughtered en-masse as the French did at Saigon in 1859. The natives had learned how to supplement their hit and run strategy with fucking the occupier’s mind.

      We wound up waging a secret war on the peasantry, and shooting infants because we lost our fucking shit.
      We looked like goddamn einsatzgruppen.

    • Celtic_Gnome

      At the time, the answer was Communism. Foreign policy, Democratic and Republican, viewed all world events through the lens of the U.S./Russia/China Cold War.

      • Wee Mousie

        I was sold the falling domino theory. If Vietnam fell, then all Indochina would fall, and then America would be fighting for its life again, Better fight them now, over there, than later, over here, So, what happened after America pulled out of Vietnam? Vietnam briefly invaded China,

        That was when I became convinced that the war protesters had it right — military intelligence is an oxymoron.

  • Shibusa

    Yr. Shibusa also taught a taught first-year college writing, ages ago, and the compare/contrast essay that stays with me still was by a young man comparing and contrasting his dad, who was a Vietnam veteran prone to dark moods, violent outbursts, and deep isolation, with his best friend’s dad, who was steady and friendly and undamaged by war. The writing was pretty bad but the heart of it was incredibly poignant and powerful. (The student seemed surprised when I encouraged him to rewrite it and offered to help him turn it into something that someone would publish. As far as I know, he never acted on it.)

    • doktorzoom

      Wow. I love those kids (OK, students of any age) — the ones who haven’t yet learned how to write slick academic prose but have something to say.

      • Shibusa

        Yes. Another student had been home schooled all the way through HS (along with his 9 LDS siblings) by a religious nutter of a father. He was an amazing mix of kindness, and sweetness, and deep-seated anger at that upbringing.

  • JustPixelz (((Ω)))

    A sadly necessary reminder of how complicated war becomes before, during and after the actual combat. And how vacuous phrases like “winning” have no real meaning as the objectives, whatever they were, slip-slide into revenge, characterized as “they shall not have died in vain.”

    When we go to war, we commit the nation to decades of repercussions. That last WWI veteran died in 2011, almost 100 years after it started. Vietnam veterans will be with us for another fifty years; Afghanistan vets … well, we don’t know because we’re still making new ones.

    I can’t help but overlay that war — during which I was 1S, then 1H — with President Bone Spurs loose talk of fire and fury in Korea, expanded combat in Afghanistan, and how we should have kept the oil in Iraq as if that would have given meaning to the lives, if not the treasure, lost.

    I can’t say I’m looking forward to seeing it, but it is still (I hope) part of being a patriot to face difficult parts of our history without flinching.

    • Moar Wordz

      I’ve reached a kind of numbness with the war in Afghanistan and Iraq. The reports of 100 + people killed by an Al-Queda terrorist horrifies me, then follow that with daily reports of similar terrorist bombings & I couldn’t read the articles. Not proud of that but it’s true. I’m sure many Americans experience the same kind of armchair apathy or comatose watching cable news of reports from the Mid East.
      And then there was Syria. An entire civilization became refugees. Fled. A line moving through Europe that stretched across nations. I couldn’t wrap my head around it. What was missing from the news reports ( and it turned out to be a key omission ) was that Syria’s citizens were experiencing a severe DROUGHT.
      I felt that that omission portrayed the refugees in a less sympathetic light.
      I know many around me said ” We don’t want them here. ” The selfishness was mind boggling. These were people who gave to charity at home and donated clothes to Goodwill & voted Democratic.
      ” We’ll lose what we have if we show them an open door ” type thinking.
      Thank God Mass Legislators didn’t feel the same way.

  • Jamoche

    Dok: Typo in “(1858-1961)” – 1858? I know it felt that long…

    • OutOfOrbit

      LOCK HIM UP!

    • doktorzoom

      Nope, that’s the date when the French first colonized Indochina.

      Admittedly, there’s some summing-up involved in the episode.

      EDIT: but you have a point; to avoid confusion, I’ll add a note.

      • OutOfOrbit

        ah, them waz the days (19th century)

    • JustPixelz (((Ω)))

      When did France colonize Vietnam? That would be the basic starting point, interrupted by Japanese occupation during WWII followed by France’s attempts to re-colonize leading to insurrection, French withdrawal … those are the dominoes that kept falling

      • OutOfOrbit

        my my, you are the smartypants today …
        TAKE’EM OFF!

        • JustPixelz (((Ω)))

          OK. OK. I took them off. Now what?

          • OutOfOrbit

            now, carry on

    • puredog

      No typo.

  • Panika MCD

    I will definitely make an effort to see this and thanks for the thoughtful review. but…

    if we’re going to talk about pants…

    it’s Hegar.

    • doktorzoom

      YOU LIE!

      Unless you meant Sammy Hegar…

      • AJ Milne

        Was gonna say it’s more: if we’re talking about historical errors compounded by sticking with an initially bad decision too long, I know guys for whom that’s Haggar.

      • Panika MCD

        huh. I’d always been told it was an offshoot of the same enormous family that has our Comptroller and MJ Hegar…and, yes, Sammy Hegar. I stand corrected.

      • Three Finger Salute

        Hegar the horrible?

      • Panika MCD

        then again, I don’t need pants with extra room between the balls and the bunghole.

        • Wee Mousie

          LBJ was such a ballsy dick, wasn’t he?

      • Royal Ugly Globalist Dude

        Sammy lied. There are two ways to rock.

      • Panika MCD

        before I forget, I thought you’d be interested in this concert. it’s being livestreamed, so I thought it wouldn’t hurt to be liveblooged. besides, come on! this line up is fantastic.:

        https://www.facebook.com/events/555451554786916/?acontext=%7B%22ref%22%3A%22106%22%2C%22action_history%22%3A%22null%22%7D

  • Three Finger Salute

    “To live is to suffer. To survive is to find meaning in suffering.”

    404: Meaning in suffering not found, so why do I still have to live?

    • FlownΩver

      To love is to suffer. To avoid suffering one must not love. But then one suffers from not loving. Therefore, to love is to suffer; not to love is to suffer; to suffer is to suffer. To be happy is to love. To be happy, then, is to suffer, but suffering makes one unhappy. Therefore, to be unhappy, one must love or love to suffer or suffer from too much happiness. I hope you’re getting this down.

      • coozledad

        I’ve been in the mood since the late 1700’s.

      • Celtic_Gnome

        And then the murders began.

  • foiled again

    When I grew up, apart from priests it was a rare male teacher who had not done time in Viet Nam.

  • Suttree
    • Villago Delenda Est

      “Charlie don’t surf!”

    • eggs ackly-wright

      Captain Willard: Who’s in charge here, soldier?
      Soldier: Ain’t choo?

  • Villago Delenda Est

    Unfortunately, the American concept of “War” is WWII, which was pretty straightforward. Wars since then have been anything but. Especially Vietnam and Iraq, which had no “fronts”. The entire theater is a battle zone. Beans and bullets troops are as front line as grunts.

    • Three Finger Salute

      The American concept of “war” is WW2, not only because it’s straightforward but because we “won.” (Albeit, only a partial victory, because we obviously didn’t de-Nazify America.) Wars that we don’t win, we don’t know how to deal with, because America is always winning, so tired of winning that we’re winning all the time.

      We still haven’t really let go of the Civil War. Heck, our national anthem is a war porn hymn, set to the melody of a drinking song, about a war we lost — to CANADA.

      We got high off our own ego and decided we could win “wars” against amorphous concepts, arguably because there’s profit in endless war against something that not only can’t be defeated but doesn’t even have a clear-cut definition. War against “Terrorism”? But only foreign brown terrorists who don’t follow Supply-Side Jesus? How about the war against “drugs” that lets pharma get away with murder but imprisons (mostly black and brown) POWs for growing a plant? Whenever Billo came up with that ridiculous “War Against Christmas” bullshit is when you really knew America had gone off the deep end.

      We need to have an “enemy” so that we can keep “winning all the time.” Nobody wins the war and then the peace because there never is any peace.

    • HellhathnofuryDemme

      That is why this doc. is a public service.
      The nation needs to understand this.
      I need this, and I grew up on bases, (my parents were civilian teachers on different bases), and my classmate’s fathers served.

      Next, I want him to do WW1, cause I have a confuze!

      • BeachBum

        I had a history prof say that WW I and II were just one really long war. It went over my head at the time. Balance of power and all that.

  • Shibusa

    Kinda o/t but Nick Turse’s book “Kill Anything that Moves” is a very worthwhile read. He makes the case that pressure on US troops to rack up big body counts in that war led to many civilian massacres. My Lai was the tip of a very big iceberg.

    • doktorzoom

      Very, very far from O/T. I hope this thread will cover anything related to Vietnam, the war, and other American Imperial Escapades.

      • Zippy W Pinhead

        BTW, have you had a chance to banhammer wolf tracker yet? The WATB has apparently been in meltdown mode since last night and is now name trolling the regulars on the other threads

        • Villago Delenda Est

          Block is your friend.

          • blocking works best when they are not coming in on new accounts, taking other people’s avs and user names, and posting them as those people, usually disgusting stuff or just mean shit

          • Zippy W Pinhead

            oh, I did. Dok can do it more effectively though

      • so war on drugs also?

    • Unmutual Tetsu Kaba

      OMG the body counts on the evening news when I was growing up.

      • BeachBum

        Too much “winning.”

      • Wee Mousie

        Sort of like the baseball scores, except the season lasted all year. Yeah. I remember.

  • Iron Monkey
    • sgt. jmk of the résistance

      I remember seeing that photograph in the late, lamented Life magazine.

      • Arolpin

        A former co-worker of mine was one of the Marines on the roof. He said he was the last Marine on the last helicopter on his roof. He was 18 years old at the time. He was only a dozen years older than me, but he seemed at least a generation older (and I was ex-Navy when I met him).

    • Villago Delenda Est

      I remember them pushing perfectly good helicopters into the Pacific because there was no place for them to stay on the carriers that were transporting refugees.

    • coozledad
  • Shibusa

    Ian Parker just did a good New Yorker profile on Ken Burns, too.

    • eggs ackly-wright

      Read that article. Seems like Burns has a pretty high opinion of himself.

  • OrG

    If I’d been about 5 years older I’d probably be living in Sweden or Canada now.

    • Villago Delenda Est

      My mother fretted in the late 60’s/early 70’s that I’d go to Vietnam.

      I’ve flown over it, but never been there.

    • JustPixelz (((Ω)))

      Sweden or Canada? Then you’d be dead from socialized healthcare. WAIT WAIT! You’d have longer life expectancy from socialized healthcare. Oops.

      • Three Finger Salute

        If John Lennon had stayed in Montreal hanging out with Pierre, he’d probably be alive today too. Canada has their share of guns and crazies with guns too, but it is NOTHING like us. Chapman probably could have gotten some decent mental health care.

    • Angela Ruzzo

      The only thing that kept my older brother from being drafted and sent to Viet Nam was enlisting in the Navy – he ended up in nuclear submarines in the Pacific, which was a far safer place.

      • Celtic_Gnome

        My older brother got drafted for a two-year hitch, signed up for a four-year hitch with a later start date so he could keep working and make the last payment on his car before going in.

        Spent the entire hitch in Germany driving an 18-wheeler hauling ammo and supplies. The army trained him to drive the 18-wheeler, and, when he got home, he got a job driving truck (after paying for truck driving school he only needed for the civilian certification) and has been doing that ever since.

    • proudgrampa

      I almost did that – 4F kept me here.

    • Celtic_Gnome

      I had a killer high lottery number. It was in the mid-200’s, but, interestingly, I can’t remember what it was. Not surprising. Just potentially the most important number in my life.

  • Lord Jim

    Did I mention my nickname in school was ball-less wonder?

    Had something to do with never standing up for the truth.

    • OrG

      Go away

    • jesterpunk

      Now your going to try and impersonate Dok? You are a sad little man aren’t you?

    • doktorzoom

      Troll removed, and let me just say that my high school nickname was actually “Brow” for some reason.

    • Me not sure

      Still at it I see.

    • shastakoala

      This made me laugh.

  • therblig

    i was probably a year away (give or take a student deferment) from being in the draft lottery for vietnam when the war ended. my parents voted for nixon all 3 times he ran. it wasn’t until 30+ years later that my mom told me that if my number had been called, she was planning to drive me to Canada. Love you, Ma.

    • Three Finger Salute

      Et Merci, Trudeau père.

    • Hubby had a low number, brother had a high one. Hubby’s rents took him out of school for a year to send his brother back for classes

  • Zippy W Pinhead

    I registered- I’m Obama’s age so the weren’t any wars at the time. I had a cousin get a low draft number, fortunately he qualified for a medical waiver. Saw some of my friend’s older brothers and whatnot go- not everyone came back in one piece

    • proudgrampa

      Some of my friends came back in one piece, but weren’t all together.

      If you know what I mean.

      • Three Finger Salute
      • Zippy W Pinhead

        I do, unfortunately

      • Good_Gawd_Yall

        I knew a woman once who had been engaged to a man who served; when he came back, she used to say sadly, he had “lost himself over there.” She never married, as far as I know.

      • weejee

        Some of us are still trying to figure it out – Class of ’69.

        • proudgrampa

          Indeed.

    • Villago Delenda Est

      One of my cousins left his leg in a rice paddy.

  • stumpknocker

    the whole war has its roots in the US fucking over Ho Chi Mihn, he was our ally in WW2 and even modeled the Vietnamese constitution after our own. So what did we do after WW2? We split Vietnam in half and gave the south back to the French, the war was always about unification to the people of Vietnam.

    • see also: Cuba
      We sorta have a track record with that sort of fuckery

      • BeachBum

        We talk shit about the European Colonial Powers, but we would have done as much if we could have. We were just late arriving. The West usually think alike on stuff. Oddly, since the 19th C, I would include Japan in that as well. We still managed to cause a lot of shit just the same.

    • mancityRed6

      we saw what France tried and said, “here, hold my beer”

    • doktorzoom

      Absolutely; this is covered really well in tonight’s first episode — as was the fact that Ho (then using another of his many pseudonyms, Nguyễn Ái Quốc — “Nguyễn the patriot”) approached freakin’ Woodrow Wilson after WW I to say that independence from France was consistent with Wilson’s own writings on colonialism. He was, of course, ignored.

      Also heartbreaking: Text of a postwar letter Ho sent to Harry Truman, again arguing that his views were much more in line with American views than with the French.

      The retired CIA agent who tells us this notes he found it in CIA archives, and the stamps on the document make clear it never made it to Truman’s desk.

    • mancityRed6

      he started his revolution from France
      because that little strip of rice paddies was so important to stopping communism /sn

      • stumpknocker

        when you listen to interviews with top North Vietnamese generals, you don’t hear shit about communism, they speak of a war of reunification of their country.

        • mancityRed6

          this country has had the heart, just not the brains. we had both for one hot minute, but then tRump won.
          goddammit

    • FeloniousMonk

      Gave the south back to the French after we Brits kept their seat warm till they were feeling better. We even used Japanese troops against the Viet Minh. We wanted to hang on to our empire (at least, Churchill did), so we had to let them keep theirs.

  • Charon_69

    Being a Canadian series you may not have had the chance to see ‘The 10,000 Day War’ or the 7(?) parter ‘War’ by Gwyn Dyer (sp?) but they are excellent as well

    • Three Finger Salute

      That should be an interesting perspective, because Canada took in the draft resisters and was against the war. That’s why Nixon really went up to Canada, it certainly wasn’t to wish Pierre and Maggie congrats on the new baby, at least not first and foremost. It was to sock it to Pierre and make him deport the draft resisters. Pierre socked it to him instead, and so all he got to do was give a toast to baby Justin even though nobody cared what he had to say. He said to Pat “why the hell did we go up there anyway? Nothing but a goddamn waste of time.”

  • mancityRed6

    dad and the ex father in law both joined. one because they couldn’t hack college, the other to get out of a jail sentence.
    dad was on a destroyer offshore. he saw the world’s fair in Japan and he has pictures of communist China just over a fence. he was also a gunner’s mate and manned the big guns. that’s why he has the hearing aids today.
    the ex FIL was a dog catcher in Okinawa for a bit, but he definitely earned his purple heart. and he still suffers from agent orange, and pink, did you know about that one? all the fucking colors of the rainbow dow made.
    for a good read, try “southeast asian book of the dead”, by Bill Shields. I used to have it, it’s been left behind in Tennessee and probably trashed years ago.
    it’s actually beautiful.

  • Unmutual Tetsu Kaba

    My husband is 6 years older than me. He was in the first draft lottery. He’s talked about watching the birth dates being drawn with his roommates in their dorm room. One guy had missed the beginning few but then watched up to number 200. He thought he was safe — it turned out his birthday was like number 6.

    • puredog

      I had a friend in college whose number was 366. We were all impressed by his overachievement.

    • LucindathePook

      Mr. P had a friend who was No. 2. He killed himself.
      Mr. P himself was told by his draft board he’d be exempt from any draft unless WWIII broke out, being a physical wreck.

    • BeachBum

      I remember the colleges emptying out, as they eliminated the college exemption. And a few others.

  • puredog

    I am only half-embarrassed to say that, no, I *don’t* know what a Ken Burns documentary looks like, never having seen one. I do plan to watch this one, though.

    • HellhathnofuryDemme

      You are in for a treat.
      His docs are awesome.

      • They really are. Very even keeled and not in a sense of both sides do it, but more in a sense of this is what went down

    • Jamoche

      This hits all the tropes, especially for eras when all he had was still photos:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYOu_lgLgzo

      • Serai 1

        I’d like to know why that woman’s arms are not casting a shadow on that guy’s chest, despite their being only an inch or so away.

        • Angela Ruzzo

          The sun is behind the man? The sun is directly overhead? Just guessing.

          • Serai 1

            Nope. Look at the rifle he’s holding. It casts a shadow right there. And yet her arms cast no shadow, despite supposedly being right next to them. It’s why I immediately thought “photoshop” when I first saw it. Either she’s not standing right in front of him, but off to the side, or she’s been pasted into the picture (possibly moved much closer than she was). Either way, sunlight doesn’t sneak around objects like that.

          • FlownΩver

            The shadows cast by her right knuckles on her right wrist would suggest a light source pretty much straight up. The shadow of the rifle is long and indistinct, making it impossible to tell whether it results from such a light source.

            Yours truly,
            Occam

          • Serai 1

            Whatever. I’ve been editing, proofing, and retouching photos for nearly twenty years. I know what I’m seeing. That woman is NOT standing directly in front of that man.

          • Angela Ruzzo

            You are probably right. But if you look at the shadows cast by the creases in his jacket, it does look as if the sun is overhead but slightly behind him. On the other hand, his right ear is not shadowed, but his left ear is, and the back of her hands are shadowed. Wherever they both were, they were probably not standing in the same line-of-sunlight.

    • Serai 1

      You’ve missed a lot. His docs are excellent, despite the idiots that sneer at them.

      • Spotts1701, Nothingburger Chef

        Every year they rerun “Baseball” during the off-season on MLB Network. And damned if I can’t help but have it on (even if it’s just background).

        • Serai 1

          Not For Ourselves Alone, about the partnership between Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony, should be required viewing for anyone interested in American feminism.

      • puredog

        The one I’ve heard the most about is Jazz. No, I recognize that there may be a lot to watch out there and I’ve been missing it.

        • Serai 1

          I’ve always like his Civil War doc series. That was the first of his projects to get national recognition, and it’s wonderful.

      • BeachBum

        I find that most idiots don’t handle the truth very well.

    • Angela Ruzzo

      All his documentaries are excellent. “The Civil War” is brilliant.

    • Baconzgood

      His one on the civil war was his best. His baseball one was just a love card to New York teams.

    • sgt. jmk of the résistance

      The offspring paused briefly on the way through the living room while I was watching his film about the Roosevelts and was so caught up that he watched the rest of it raptly.

      When you’re done watching this, definitely check out his other work. His films are worth the time.

    • BeachBum

      Baseball, cause ya need a break. Then Civil War.

  • Resistance Fighter Astraea

    I really don’t know anything about the Vietnam War. We didn’t cover it in school and I just never took the time to supplement my knowledge. Is this a good documentary to start with or should I start with something else first?

    • Ken’s good for building usually, and will have references throughout for further study. At least, he did so on his last efforts

    • mancityRed6

      the only good thing about it is that the people who were there are still alive. there are plenty of good books from first hand knowledge.

      • Resistance Fighter Astraea

        It’s just hard to know where to start to get a good perspective.

        • mancityRed6

          “a rumor of war” is a good start
          and I said it earlier, but Bill Shields “southeast asian book of the dead” is some very brutal poetry.

        • mancityRed6

          a couple of good ones I remember from the book of the dead…he talks about a guy going off in a VA clinic and the next week they had armed guards. or him waking up in the basement with a knife, waiting. or leaving the hospital from his kid dying and loading up his ford festiva with guns and IEDs headed out for the Dow labs because it all linked to those damn exfoliates they used.

    • stumpknocker

      i would start by reading about the life of Ho Chi Minh.

    • TundraGrifter

      A lot depends on how deep you want to get into it – of course. The journalist Bernard Fall wrote some excellent books about the French in Viet Nam – “Street Without Joy” is one of them. I wonder if he’d lived if his work would have helped keep America out of it.

      • Resistance Fighter Astraea

        Unfortunately I don’t have tons of time to read a lot on top of what I’m already working on. I just don’t want to be ignorant about it.

    • Angela Ruzzo

      I was in school K-12 when the war was going on, and we didn’t study it at all, but it was on the news every night, and some of my friends’ older brothers were drafted and sent to Viet Nam. My uncle was there too, but he was a kind of spy and we didn’t know he was there, and he wasn’t allowed to speak about it until quite recently. I didn’t really understand what went wrong in Viet Nam until I watched the movie “Platoon” which was recommended to me by several veterans.

      • Resistance Fighter Astraea

        I went to high school in the late 90s. I didn’t live through it and it was too recent for text books to catch up. Plus, we had to make sure we covered WWII every single year for reasons.

        • Angela Ruzzo

          They love to teach about WWII because the enemies were very identifiable as bad guys, and also we won it.

          • Three Finger Salute

            I wish Kaepernick would just come right out and say “Guys, we fucking lost 1812. Stop singing about it already. It’s stupid.”

          • coozledad

            And the national anthem is a racist piece of shit.

          • Three Finger Salute

            They won’t listen to him about that. So maybe if he went with the second angle, which is also true. Then again, no, they’re not going to listen to him anyway, because apparently history isn’t always written by the victors. We didn’t really lose 1812; that’s fake news from the lying liberal media. After all, according to historians Trey Parker and Matt Stone, “Canada’s not a real country anyway.”

          • Angela Ruzzo

            Well, technically there was a status quo ante bellum peace treaty, without concession by either side, so you could say nobody won it, or you could even say it was a pointless political and military exercise and not a war at all. But I agree about the song.

        • Three Finger Salute

          I always wanted to cover WW1 more in school. There’s a reason it’s called the forgotten war. It seems to get more attention in Canada (i.e. the multipart documentary Justin was in) because of the significance of Vimy Ridge. But we never really went into detail about it at all other than a few paragraphs about the League of Nations. Never talked about the Ottoman Empire or even who Franz Ferdinand was. ‘Course, when I was in high school, Franz Ferdinand was better known as an indie rock band that sang “Take Me Out” and “Do You Want To.”

          As for WW2, the curriculum always focused 99% on Hitler and said almost nothing about Vichy or even Japan besides nukes and Pearl Harbor. Didn’t even talk about Hitler’s time in WW1. I didn’t even learn about Lindbergh until college!

          And people wonder why we “forget” history?

          • Resistance Fighter Astraea

            If only there were more statues.

      • BeachBum

        If ya got the guts, Pilgrim, watch Full Metal Jacket.

        • puredog

          Apocalypse Now also too. Even Platoon. And read “Hell in a Very Small Place” about the battle of Dien Bien Phu. Also — indispensably — Dispatches, by Michael Herr.

        • Angela Ruzzo

          I’ve been told about that. I definitely don’t have the guts for that one, I barely made it through Platoon without getting sick to my stomach, and I can’t listen to Barber’s “Adagio for Strings” anymore.

          • marxalot

            I made a series of terrible errors and watched FMJ, Apocalypse Now, and Platoon over the course of one weekend. I definitely was sick more than once.

          • Angela Ruzzo

            How did you sleep???? This would have given me insomnia.

          • marxalot

            Short answer: I didn’t!
            Long answer: I didn’t, so I started drinking myself to sleep after about three days, thus completing the simulated Viet Nam experience. (I may also have been in and out of drunk while watching the movies, which was a Bad Plan as well)

        • Unmutual Tetsu Kaba

          A Vietnam vet I know told me Full Metal Jacket was closest to his experience.

    • Serai 1

      I was a kid during that war, so pretty much everything I know, I learned afterward. I only knew that I couldn’t understand why everyone hated all the kids who didn’t want to go to war. I knew I would never want to go, so why were they trying to force people?

    • Royal Ugly Globalist Dude

      I really enjoyed The Fog of War by Earl Morris.

  • Big Puppy Resists

    Thanks, Dok. I was ambivalent about watching this because I lived through it, but you’ve changed my mind.

  • TundraGrifter

    I highly recommend Prof. Arthur Schlesinger’s outstanding book “The Bitter Heritage.” There wasn’t an argument made supporting the terrible, misguided Iraq Invasion Debacle that wasn’t made forty years ago in favor of the war in Viet Nam. There wasn’t a criticism of the war’s opponents offered that did not echo the positions voiced four decades ago.

    Prof. Schlesinger demolishes the war advocates and brilliantly bolsters those who stood up and objected to a policy and an administration that was headed in the wrong direction.

    Does criticism of the administration embolden our enemy? (Please see page 9.) Are objections to the Iraq war unpatriotic? (Pages 53-55.) Prof. Schlesinger points out “It is hardly prudent for any President to insist on a conception of unity which, on closer examination, means no more than unquestioning acceptance of government policy…Criticism of a war always cheers up the enemy; but I do not recall that any government official admonished Abraham Lincoln to stop criticizing the Mexican War on the ground that it gave aid and comfort to Santa Anna.” (Page 118.) And he quotes Secretary McNamara “’This is a nation in which the freedom of dissent is absolutely fundamental.’” (Page 122.)

    Did the problem have a military solution? (Page 39.) “’My feeling,’ General Wallace Greene, Commandant of the Marine Corps, has wisely said, ‘is that we could kill every Viet Cong and North Vietnamese in South Vietnam and still lose the war. Unless we can make a success of the civic-action program, we are not going to obtain the objectives we set.’” (Page 48.)

    The Bush Administration proposed the “Surge” Strategy. In other words, it’s just going to take one more military step [escalation] (pages 31-33). Or, as Prof. Schlesinger summarizes this approach: “The theory, of course, is that widening the war will shorten it.”

    We received continued optimistic progress reports and predictions in the face of evidence to the contrary (page 24). Yet the war’s advocates suggested the public’s perception of failure was the fault of the press (page 26). Indeed, is there a justification for preventive war? (Pages 94-95.) And, once again, we see how a puppet government leverages American support (page 112).

    What if the people do not support the present course of action? Each President remains “accountable at the bar of public opinion for every act of this administration.” – Andrew Jackson (page 32)

    Is world opinion important? (Pages 56-57.) “’An attention to the judgment of other nations is important to every government…’” – James Madison, 63rd Federalist (page 58). “If our credibility is the issue, it is rather more important that other countries believe in our intelligence and responsibility than our passion for over-kill.” – Prof. Schlesinger (pages 115-116).

    Had we simply left Iraq, would it have been “another Munich?” “In the years since [World War II], the consciousness of policy-makers has been haunted by the Munich and Yalta analogies – the generalization …that appeasement always assures new aggression…The multitude of errors committed in the name of ‘Munich’ may exceed the original error of 1938.” (Pages 89-92) “There is more respect to be won in the opinion of this world by a resolute and courageous liquidation of unsound positions than by the most stubborn pursuit of extravagant or unpromising objectives.” – George Kennan (page 115). There is also the view of Winston Churchill: “I would not sacrifice my own generation to a principal however high or a truth however great.” (Page 97.)

    We fought a war at a frightful financial cost (page 50). And there was “the most serious cost of all – a cost both domestic and foreign: the ebbing away of belief in the American government. It is an irony that a war undertaken to demonstrate the credibility of the American word should end in erosion of confidence in American integrity and purpose.” (Page 64.) “…the intensity of the national administration’s commitment to the Bill of Rights can make a vital difference.” – Prof. Schlesinger (page 117).

    Prof. Schlesinger offered not only history but also hope. In Chapter VIII. (“A Middle Course”): “Are these the only alternatives: disorderly and humiliating
    withdrawal or enlarging the war? Surely our statesmanship is not yet this bankrupt.” (Pages 99-101.)

    When this book was published approximately 4,000 US military personnel had lost their lives in Viet Nam. Had people in power read and understood this book, the final tally of the butcher’s bill would have been far, far lower.

    I wish more people had read it in 1967 – and I wish every member of the Senate and House had read it before the Iraq Invasion Debacle.

    • Three Finger Salute

      Jimmy Carter made everyone in his cabinet watch Johnny Get His Gun. An antiwar film written by blacklisted screenwriter Dalton Trumbo. Well, Red-Baitin’ Rambo Reagan got wind of that, and scrubbed every last trace of that goodfernuthin commie from the White House. And also Dalton Trumbo.

  • marxalot

    For an examination of how the internecine power struggles in DC and the Pentagon played out in front of God and everybody, read Buzzanco’s Masters of War, if you are suffering from low blood pressure anyway.
    Also, things learned in college: Tim O’Brien’s Going After Cacciato makes me impossible to live with. If I Die in a Combat Zone didn’t have that effect, though.

  • Baconzgood

    The photojournalist Eddie Adams was related to a friend of mine. I was told by him that there was never a clear policy in Vietnam. Nor a strategy for victory against a citizenry and military so isolated in rugged country. The only options were pull out and the country would fall or maintain a endless unwinnable war

    Thank god we learned our lesson and will never get involved in a war like that again.

    • mancityRed6

      I wish that wasn’t snark at the end.
      I really, really do.

      • Wee Mousie

        At this point it may be useful to remember that The First World War was so truly horrific that they thought there was a good chance that it might be the war that ended all wars.

        At least until the end of the two minute’s silence at 11 o’clock on November 11th.

  • georgiaburning

    Hard to find, but Al Santoli’s “To Bear Any Burden” is a great collection of first- person accounts of the war from all the sides.

    • doktorzoom

      Santoli is terrific. Phillip Caputo, author of the also terrific A Rumor of War, is one of the first-person interviewees, as are Tim O’Brien (The Things The Carried) and Neil Sheehan (A Bright Shining Lie: John Paul Vann and America in Vietnam). All three have production adviser credits.

      • doktorzoom

        Hey, you know what, in my “spare time” I should start a Vietnam War Book And Film Club.

        • Shibusa

          If you want to get into Iraq books, I’d give big thumbs up to David Finkel’s The Good Soldiers and Thank You For Your Service…

          • doktorzoom

            And Imperial Life in the Emerald City and We Meant Well and especially Thomas Ricks’s Fiasco and The Gamble. But I will definitely put yours on my list! (what is this “spare time?”

          • Notreelyhelping

            “Requiem” by Horst Faas and Tim Page is a great collection of (and tribute to) photojournalists who didn’t make it back. Stupendous images.

          • Shibusa

            Thanks. The only one I’ve read is “Fiasco”. For fiction try “Redeployment” by Phil Klay (short stories) and Ben Fountain’s “Billy Lynn’s Long Halftime Walk”. Both are fantastic.

          • Maggielle

            Also check out (for fiction) Spoils by Brian Van Reet (2017, Lee Boudreaux Books).

        • georgiaburning

          Toss in “Another Vietnam” by Tim Page, it’s a collection of photographs featuring ones from the VC and NVA side

      • mancityRed6

        a rumor of war is one of my first books on the subject, I might even still have it.

        • doktorzoom

          One of the first ones I ever read was Larry Hughes’s You Can See A Lot Standing Under A Flare In The Republic of Vietnam: My Year At War, a memoir published in 1969. It seems to be out of print, but it gave a very immediate, vivid sense of what the whole clusterfuck was like. And jesus, what a great title!

          • mancityRed6

            does it rate with Siegfried Sassoon?

          • mancityRed6

            oh, and $6 on Amazon, a used library copy.

          • mancityRed6

            the trick is to find a good copy of “the englishman in Kansas” that’s some good history.

  • Suttree

    Sorry Dok, I was able to read up until the LBJ video,Your writing is as always spot on. I just stopped reading because I started to have the urge to punch windows.

  • TundraGrifter

    There are so many first-rate books about Viet Nam it’s very hard to pick just a few. “Dispatches” by Michael Herr is excellent. He worked for Esquire Magazine and he was always asked “What the fuck are you doing here? Telling your readers what we’re wearing?” This collection of his work is well worth reading.

    • Notreelyhelping

      I’ve read a bunch of stuff about the war, and “Dispatches” still seems like the best. “That map, it’s really old.”

  • Serai 1

    Along with the other interesting documentaries cited below, I’d like to throw my vote in for The Fog of War, Errol Morris’s excellent interview/doc with Robert McNamara. After fourty years, the guy sat down and talked not only about the war and what happened from his perspective, but also about everything he’s learned in the years since the war. It’s really refreshing to hear someone like him admit not only being ignorant of the real issues involved, but how ridiculously massive his ignorance was. Gives you a real sense of how the whole awful mess could have happened.

    • Me not sure

      Beat me.

      • David Roosa

        um……ok?!!

        • Me not sure

          Wait… no.

        • Serai 1

          Back off! He invited ME!

    • TundraGrifter

      I agree that documentary is excellent. I’d suggest following it up by reading “The Best and The Brightest” by David Halberstam.

    • doktorzoom

      Morris himself was astonished by the contrast between McNamara’s introspection and the intractable, infuriating superficiality and incuriousness of Donald Rumsfeld in his interviews for The Unknown Known.

      • Serai 1

        The doc made me think more kindly of McNamara, certainly. Ignorance is different from willful blindness.

      • Three Finger Salute

        At least that Donald was so cryptic and evasive as to be a high-functioning Machiavellian sociopath. This Donald would just shrug and say “I dunno.”

        I dunno which is worse. I guess that’s one of those unknown unknowns.

        • BeachBum

          I dunno.

      • Me not sure

        Errol Morris is a national treasure. His eye and cinematic sensabilities are unflinching and unique among American documentarians.

        • puredog

          Um — Wiseman libelz. Not to detract from Morris.

          • Me not sure

            What a long running body of work. Is he still alive?

    • marxalot

      I’m still angry at McNamara, but at least he had the intelligence and maturity to really examine himself and his actions, and how the events of the war compounded, and the aftermath. He may have at least understood why I was so angry, when walking through Arlington, to find him there– a war criminal buried in sight of his victims, with honors.

  • Michael R
    • Martini Ambassador 🍸

      The BEST people

    • TundraGrifter

      Not to be too, too picky here – but isn’t there something very wrong if he is the only person who can see that? For my money that’s just too much like the old bumpersnicker “You’re Just Jealous Because the Voices Only Talk to Me.”

      • puredog

        Upfists for Herb Caen reference.

        • TundraGrifter

          Thanx for noticing! A true story. For a couple of years there was the “San Francisco County Fair” – an urban version of an old-time county fair. One of the events was “Write Like Herb Caen.” Well I did and I didn’t win. So the next year I wrote a parody – Cuuute firm name like “Union 76,” clever license plate “WBX 3492,” stuff like that. I faithfully read him every day so I knew what I was doing. It was wicked.

          Well, I didn’t win that year either. So I sent a copy of my version to Mr. Caen at the Chronicle. Shortly after that he died.

      • tomamitai

        ♫…what a fool believes, he sees♫

    • Three Finger Salute

      That’s got to be a bot account.

      • mancityRed6

        maybe it’s the “my room smells like pineapple and cum”?
        or was it the “I’m back from my mental breakdown”?

        • Three Finger Salute

          Twitter.exe has stopped working. Abort, Retry, Fail, or AOT,K?

          • mancityRed6

            abort, abort!

    • spangled

      this person’s twitter handle is a mix of lana del rey and rihanna’s real name. weird because both of them reaalllly hate trump. lana del rey even tried to cast a hex on him!

      “my pussy tastes like pepsi cola” is a lana del rey lyric.

      • marxalot

        I noticed that
        weeeeeeiiiird

      • mancityRed6

        why would it.. nevermind. forget I asked.

      • Shanzgood

        Maybe she drinks a lot of Pepsi? If that’s how it works, mine tastes like Cabernet Sauvignon.

        • Jamoche

          It reminds me of the old urban legends about douching with Coke.

        • Ricky Gay

          What? No bacon??

          • Shanzgood

            Not lately.

          • Ricky Gay

            :(

          • BeachBum

            I like your thinking.

          • Baconzgood

            I like your thinking Ricky.

          • Ricky Gay

            Heh

        • mancityRed6

          Imma take your word for it.

        • Parakeetist

          How do you know? Wait, don’t answer. DON’T.

          • Shanzgood

            I said IF that’s how it works!

      • spangled

        lana del rey’s whole schtick is like….sad americana. lyrically she invokes pepsi and muscle cars and cherry pie and styles herself like a 50s housewife, but it’s not really a MAGA thing it’s a….america is fucked up thing.

        if this twitter user is a real person who likes both trump and del rey, she REALLY doesn’t get it. she’s like the equivalent of dumb guys who don’t understand that fight club is a criticism of toxic masculinity.

        • marxalot

          Lana del Rey performs a drug-smeared reading of post lapsarian America, a sort of Endless Summer by way of the Great Gatsby, reforming the failures of compulsory heterosexuality into something romantic and forlorn rather that dreary and damaging. And she does it all sober and single! Which may be her greatest accomplishment.

    • Me not sure

      Dear Lana, a large bottle Lysol should help with this. Be sure to drink it all.

      • Parakeetist

        Rofl

    • Magyar Has Had It Up To Here

      Pineapple? WTF kind of kink is that?

      • Shanzgood

        It’s supposed to make semen taste good.

        • Baconzgood

          30 pineapples please.

          • mancityRed6

            no coffee and cut out the salt.

          • Shanzgood

            There are only varying and anecdotal reports about whether it works.

          • Baconzgood

            We’ll have to take the Pepsi challenge then.

          • Shanzgood

            I’m not drinking soda, not even for you!

          • WIDTAP

            Well then the hell with my eating pineapple.

          • Shanzgood

            Hey, what you eat is none of my business!

          • BeachBum

            Uh, um, maybe its just me, but I don’t think he meant “drink” it.

          • Wee Mousie

            Seltzer bottles at fifteen paces.

          • BeachBum

            Cant do. Gotta order by the case. 24/per. Blame Bezos.

          • Baconzgood

            I hear if you order 30 they only charge for 2 dozen and give you 6 for free.

            Like tulips.

        • Magyar Has Had It Up To Here

          Good luck with that.

        • Me not sure

          So for Sunday brunch?

      • Serai 1

        Maybe a Psych fan?

        • Three Finger Salute

          “How about that, Gus? Jules said she wants me to massage her bra.”

          “You mean a ménage-à-trois?

          “I’ve heard it both ways.”

          “In that case, you might actually be right.”

          “Course I’m right! I just can’t figure out what she meant by ‘pineapple and chocolate’. That’s the worst pizza flavor in the world! And it’s not even Hawaiian! It’s from Canada! Invented by a Greek! False advertising! Fake news! My whole world is shattered — ”

          “Wait — did — did you say — chocolate…?”

          (Shawn and Gus stare blankly into the camera as the scene fades out.)

          • Serai 1

            I’ve been re-watching the series in order to find giffing material. Holy shit, it’s a cornucopia of clippable stuff!

          • Three Finger Salute

            There’s a reunion special set to air on USA this Christmas. Can’t wait.

          • Serai 1

            It’s a full-on TV movie, and get this – there’s FIVE MORE planned for the coming five years.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/00740a6ffeb3a3cf27475aa7a923e016242e4b5fec91ace50b8cafde21c07553.gif

          • Three Finger Salute

            I heard the actor who played Lassie had a stroke recently. I do hope he makes a full recovery. Can’t have Psych without Lassie!

          • Wee Mousie

            Lassie had a multiple personality disorder. Surely one of her personalities will survive to participate.

          • Serai 1

            Apparently he’s much better now, so I’m hoping we’ll see lots more wonderful work from him.

      • Parakeetist

        Don’t tell me. Please.

    • Ricky Gay

      “Pineapple and Cum?” — it’s too early for Christmas carols!!!

      • Wee Mousie

        “Snark!” the periled angels sing
        Pineapple’s cum is not the thing.
        Don’t let your festering slump.
        Fly over Trump and take a dump.

        • Ricky Gay

          Parumpa pum pum
          me and my cum

    • Baconzgood

      That’s not how I remember taking the Pepsi challenge at the grocery store.

      • Me not sure

        It always tasted a little “medicinal” to me. …I mean Pepsi. I kinda like cherry pie.

      • Parakeetist

        Ur doin it rong

    • Baconzgood

      This chick’s needs to write lyrics for Primus.

      • Parakeetist

        What is she on?

        • Baconzgood

          Acid and the Jesus Lizard.

    • Wee Mousie

      Pineapple and cum doesn’t smell so bad, but pineapple cum is despicable.

  • Me not sure

    Errol Morris’s “The Fog of War” (as well as any of his films) is well worth a view. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ce02a152634067bb70327a6d3a23df2150a103af73cb86a36635166dc75db350.jpg

  • Baconzgood

    He ain’t no Ricky Sebak.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Sebak

  • Suttree

    My father was not drafted, but a friend of his was. When we visited the wall my father found his name.I might have been 12 or so. Old enough to understand the stupidity/

  • sgt. jmk of the résistance

    El Dad used to say that I saved his life twice before I turned 11… my impending birth was the reason he didn’t have to go to Vietnam.

    • TundraGrifter

      I would just like to say reading about folks’ fathers who could have been drafted is making me feel very old.

      • sgt. jmk of the résistance

        If it’s easier, that was in the early 60s.

        • Good_Gawd_Yall

          What was the second way?

          • sgt. jmk of the résistance

            He got sober because he couldn’t live with the guilt of leaving 10-year old me home alone, taking care of my brother and sister while mom waited tables and he was, as he said, “feeling sorry for himself in some gin mill.”

          • Good_Gawd_Yall

            That’s amazing. My dad quit smoking because of us kids, finally kicking the habit when I was seven. But your story’s better. :)

          • sgt. jmk of the résistance

            It’s amazing what you can do for your kids.

            He found it hard to quit smoking, but that was partially because everyone smoked like crazy at AA meetings. No joke, by the end of the meeting, the room would have a foot-and-a-half wide layer of thick smoke drifting around near the ceiling.

        • TundraGrifter

          The first time I ever heard about Viet Nam was when my sister brought a guy she knew from school over to the house for a home-cooked meal (my sister and my brother sent to college down the street – same place my mother, father, various aunts, uncles, cousins went). This was probably ’64 or ’65. He talked about hunting tigers in the jungle, and going out on “snatch team missions” into Viet Cong camps at night to bring back their leader. By ’69 I was 18 1/2 and with a January birthday “1-A” when I graduated from high school.

      • mancityRed6

        dad went, did his four years and came back. I was born three years later. I was born a year before the fall of Saigon.

      • Good_Gawd_Yall

        My dad was born just a tad too late for WW2 and a tad too early for Korea. He did serve in the Army as a clerk/typist, which was cover for his real job as the star pitcher of the Army’s baseball team. True story: he was once detailed to drive a one-star general and the general’s boxes of stuff somewhere; when they arrived the general wouldn’t let my dad risk his pitching arm helping carry the boxes, and carried them himself because they had a game the next day.

        • TundraGrifter

          Bob Feller served on the same ship as my uncle during WW II – USS Alabama. He (my uncle) said they didn’t lose one game the entire war.

      • spangled

        ok, my dad was too young to get drafted in vietnam.
        :D

      • HellhathnofuryDemme

        YOU feel old!
        MY dad tried to sign up for the Navy during the Korea thing, (whatever that was!), but they wouldn’t take him.
        Too tall, (he was 6’9″).
        He heard that they had the best food.

        • WIDTAP

          Apparently he hadn’t heard of SOS.

          • HellhathnofuryDemme

            Ha, ha!
            Oh, yes!
            He loved it!

  • Angela Ruzzo

    I vividly remember the day when David Brinkley announced on the NBC nightly news that the death toll in Viet Nam had reached 58,000+ – because that was the exact population of the city I lived in. For some reason, that filled me with awe.

    On the other hand I also remember Brinkley announcing at the end of one year (don’t remember which one, but it was late 60’s) that more than 50,000 people had died in motor vehicle accidents in the US that year, which at that time was more than the total number of military personnel killed in Viet Nam during the whole war. That’s not really relevant, but it struck me at the time, and I haven’t forgotten it.

    • Three Finger Salute

      Now the press lines up to beat the drums of war. MSNBC fired Phil Donahue for giving material support to terrism by daring to criticize King George’s Crusade.

      • Angela Ruzzo

        I remember when they cancelled the Smothers Brothers TV show in 1969. I was 13, and I was furious about it.

      • Parakeetist

        His show before they fired him was really good.

        • Three Finger Salute

          I love how MSNBC gets lumped in as “liberal media” even though they did this to Phil, and also had racist cowboy Don Imus on their payroll for I forget how many years. I mean, the mere fact it’s called “MSNBC” is because it started as a partnership between Microsoft and NBC. Not “Marxist-Socialist” as the Brainfarters call it. Far from it. They won’t do anything that might cause affront to their corporate paymasters — let alone the largest corporation in the world, the United States Military Junta.

    • Me not sure

      Around 30,000 die of gunshot wounds of all kinds in the US every year, year in and year out. That’s a Viet Nam War every two years. We just keep pluggin’ away.

      • Parakeetist

        I said that on Democratic Underground and some assholes actually took exception.

        Dumb fucks.

        • Me not sure

          The truth hurts…and then bleeds out.

    • Seek

      That’s my one vivid memory of the early 70’s. Huntley or Brinkley reading out the death toll for the war. It just kept climbing and nothing ever seemed to come of it. I was a kid and it just seemed incredibly stupid to me.

      • Angela Ruzzo

        That, and the body bags being carried off military airplanes. This was so distressing to Americans that they banned media coverage of it. Many historians credit the sight of the body bags on TV for helping to end the war, but I have my doubts about that.

    • SeekingCovfefeBarbie

      I don’t remember the announcement of the end of the war (I was a college student then) but I remember the scenes of people desperate to escape.

      • Angela Ruzzo

        PBS had a good documentary in 2015 about the end of the war and the people fleeing Saigon. It was on “American Experience” and it was called “Last Days In Vietnam.” While I watched this I realized why I missed this bit of history entirely…it was the last week of April, 1975, and I was preparing for college finals the very next week. I had canceled my newspaper subscriptions and unplugged my 13″ B&W TV and hidden it in the closet so I wouldn’t be distracted from non-stop studying for 6 finals and finishing 5 term papers and packing up my dorm room to go home. The really stupid part is that I was majoring in International Relations, and I more-or-less missed one of the most important events in American history. I also missed Nixon’s resignation…I went on a rustic camping trip that week, with no TV or radio for 4 days. I didn’t hear that he resigned until we were in the car driving home, what a surprise!

  • Robbertjan Brandenburg

    The Vietnam war reactions show many parallels to the WW1 defeat of Germany. the dagger theory to the liberals wouldn’t let us win theory.

    • coozledad

      There’s also a kind of red wheel rolling out of the Iraq /Afghan wars. Police departments staffed with vets with PTSD for one thing.

      • Suttree

        And they are getting military surplus.

  • Magyar Has Had It Up To Here

    My dad was fortunate enough to have a duty station (the US Capitol) that kept him from being deployed. Luck damn thing – he was a combat medic who would have been sent over with Marines.

  • Good_Gawd_Yall

    My Vietnam story: I was born in 1960 so I was a young teen when the war ended. We lived in a small KY town, where my dad was the volunteer coach of a church 16-18 boys’ basketball team. We were at a game the night they broadcast the news. The PA announcer interrupted the game to tell us that the war had ended. Every parent of every player on both teams cried buckets, and the clapping, cheering, whistling, and foot-stomping went on for what felt, to my 14-year-old self, like an hour.
    Fast-forward twenty years and I was reading Robert McNamara’s book about how he felt like a idiot now for what he did then. I remember looking at my then-ten-year-old son and thinking, You’ll go to Canada before you go to war. Thank gawd he and I have not had to face that, as grateful as I am to the men and women who volunteer to serve.

    • HellhathnofuryDemme

      I was born in 1959, so we have a similar time in common.

      I was thrilled that my second daughter was a dual citizen born in Canada, so that she/he (didn’t know the sex), and couldn’t be drafted into some war.

      • Seek

        My family lived abroad during the 60’s and all of us kids were born outside the US. My parents made sure that my brothers maintained their birth certs from where they were born and were ready to have them renounce US citizenship to get out of Vietnam. Weird times, I still am absolutely devoid of patriotism. I blame the Vietnam War

        • HellhathnofuryDemme

          Yep.
          The double whammy of Vietnam and Watergate made me the cynical person I am today.

    • Poorly Behaved Pérsistanista

      My oldest brother was in college when the deferment for the draft ended. My father was career Navy but my parents were divorced. Mom was a piece of work, (oh, jeesh, was she ever) but I will never the night in the kitchen when she stood and said to brother, “The French were in Viet Nam when you were born and I will be goddamned if my son is going to go die in that jungle.” They subsequently made plans to get him to Canada if he got a low number in the draft.

      I will always consider that her finest moment.

      He got a high number.

      • grindstone

        My oldest brother’s number was 250, my second brother’s number was 10. That’s how important this was in the family, that I remember this. They came of age after they were really calling boys up, so this was more a holdover from the draft, and both were slated for college, but my mother was a complete and utter basket case when those numbers were published.

    • marxalot

      Running Dad was born in ’58, which put him in danger territory as the war dragged on and on. I don’t know if he’s ever said if he had a plan. I do know that his (now late, unlamented) father had joined the Army well before WWII (was a Sgt going into the Pacific), and the old bastard wasn’t one to let anyone get out of something horrible he’d had to do.

    • Arolpin

      My dad had already burned his draft card (in ’65, when he turned 21, some friends broke into a draft board and stole blank draft cards to use as IDs to drink underage, and he burned the fake card on his 21st birthday), but by the time his college deferments were over, he was already a father, but he was ordered to report for his physical.
      He got a message to them that they could come do the physical in the hospital, where he spent a couple weeks being treated for trichinosis. He said that being raised Jewish, he didn’t know not to eat raw pork, and he was making something with sausage and was nibbling on it as he was cooking it. A couple days later he got sick, wasn’t getting better, couldn’t figure it out, and ended up being hospitalized before they figure out why he was sick.
      He avoided having to move to Canada because he didn’t know not to eat raw pork. Says it the best stupid thing he ever did.

  • Picabo

    I recommend “Embers of War” if you want to know how it all started. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ea25fcfbe65d150e9495c6b4682290226c499e135186f8986e13e60549ba8faa.jpg

  • Suttree

    The Fog Of War is also a decent documentary to watch. Wherein McNamara is looked at as a good person.

    • Serai 1

      Well, at least someone willing to examine his mistakes and learn from them.

    • Baconzgood

      He was kinda making a confession on that one.

      • bbayliss

        Perfect example of melding business with government.
        And yes, I know about his WW2 service, he was trapped between the past and television.

      • Suttree

        As well he should have.

        • Baconzgood

          I read the synopsis on Indb.

          “Jebus..I was really wrong about EVERYTHING. I’m going to hell”

          1:22. Rated PG-13

  • marxalot

    The moral of the story is, don’t let the French blackmail (red bait?) you into supporting overseas ventures.

  • bookish

    http://wildfiretoday.com/2017/09/17/looking-back-at-nifcs-june-prediction-for-august-september-wildfire-activity/

    The primary variable factors that affect large scale wildfire activity are the condition of the fuel (vegetation) and the weather when the fires ignite and continue to burn. In the western United States the amount of the lighter fuels available, such as grass, is affected by the precipitation in the winter and spring. That same precipitation also affects the amount of moisture in the live fuels as well as the dead and down duff and woody material.

    Another factor that we have often said is even more important than conditions in the winter and spring is the weather DURING the fire season. In the West if the summer is relatively cool and wet, the fire activity will be less intense than average. On the other hand, a hot, dry summer can lead to more acres burned than normal — in spite of the winter/spring weather.

    • Serai 1

      In the western United States the amount of the lighter fuels available, such as grass,

      And now I’m imagining someone trying vainly to stuff their Ronson lighter with blades of grass.

      • bookish

        It’s been a brutal fire and smoke season all over the west. In my area of Central California, our season doesn’t normally top out until October. It’s not over yet. I remember a couple of Halloween nights in Southern California, watching wildfires burn in the hills above our house.

  • DerrickWildcat

    Fake news

  • Three Finger Salute

    Ken Burns taking a critical look at American history — particularly war — that doesn’t play to rah-rah jingoism is one of many reasons why Republicans want to get rid of PBS.

    • Parakeetist

      I loves me some PBS. I can’t live without my British detective shows.

      • Three Finger Salute

        I wish they had the archived series available for streaming. Especially the kids’ shows. Potato-quality Bob Ross videos on YouTube are nice background noise, but it’s not quite the same as opening up the vault. I really miss 321 Contact and Reading Rainbow. Square One is I think the only show that’s been released to DVD in its entirety. The rest seem to be tied up in IP hell.

        • Parakeetist

          They do, if you have a Roku box. Quite a number of good shows on tap. Endeavour, Downton Abbey and Grantchester, to name a few. If you donate $5 a month or more, you get access to streaming.

          • Three Finger Salute

            Dunno what a Roku box is, but if it’s something that lets me watch the PBS classics it’d be worth looking into. I wonder if they have the ones that ran for years in their entirety, Mr Rogers being one (30+ years) and Reading Rainbow (13 years). Zoom technically aired for 12, the original plus the remake. Every so often I get a bout of nostalgia and YouTube just doesn’t give enough of a “fix”.

          • Parakeetist

            A Roku box is a gadget that you plug into an HDMI jack on a recently made TV, and it gives you access to tons of streaming channels. Some channels charge monthly fees, others don’t. :) You can get a Roku box at Best Buy and places like that.

        • Erala Contratista

          Still a fan of Fargo North, Decoder :-D

  • Angela Ruzzo

    Notes from my uncle, who was in military intelligence in Viet Nam in the early 60’s.

    “U.S. intervention in SE Asia stems from WW II U.S.-French relations. FDR was anti-colonial, and if he had lived, events would likely have gone differently. Most people on the high inside political and military track believed that very significant problems would separate the USSR and U.S. following WW II, and this concretized when the USSR took over and made satellites of Eastern European countries. Then Mao and the Chinese Communist forces won their civil war in 1948, and U.S. leaders were quite alarmed, feeling that Communism would continue to expand by force. Eisenhower thought that the major target for their expansion in SE Asia would be Laos, and he began to support the French in Vietnam and Laos, first with weapons and support resources, then with military advisors. The North Vietnamese guerillas (Viet Minh,) took on the French in a series of hit and withdraw attacks, building up its strength until they defeated the French in a set battle at Dienbienphu, ending French domination in both Vietnam and Laos.

    The history of the war in Laos, as with Laotian history in general, is complex and convoluted, but one of the most important things is that the Pathet Lao were not a significant force on their own, but were aided in every way by the NVA, without whose aid they would probably have failed in dominating Laos. Laos, by international treaty was neutral, and the signatories to the treaty agreed that they would not intervene militarily in Laos. Although the U.S. did not sign the treaty, J.F. Dulles agreed that we would abide by its provisions. The treaty was laughable, as nearly all the major powers broke it immediately; the NVA continued to advise and supplement Pathet Lao regional takeovers, and the U.S. began to send in military advisors. The problem with military advisors is that the closer they are to tactical missions, the more certain it is that they will have to become combatants to ensure local victories and keep from being killed and captured themselves. It was under JFK that our actions in Laos grew considerably, but he wanted to keep U.S. involvement secret, or at least to make it appear that we were not providing military assistance. So, the program in Laos was run by CIA, initially as a “trailwatch” effort. Our covert officers trained groups such as the Hmong (mountain villagers who were treated very much as lower-class by the ruling Lao groups) to do recon work, identifying what units of NVA/Pathet Lao were bringing in supplies via the so-called Ho Chi Minh Trail, and learning the degree of weapons and advisors sent in by China and Russia.

    But during the period 1961-1964, it became apparent that the major locus of the war would be in Vietnam. CIA trailwatching did little to slow down the stream of troops and supplies that moved from N. Vietnam into Laos and back into S. Vietnam, and the U.S. largely replaced the CIA effort with our Special Forces teams. Direct U.S. fighting took place in Laos, but never on the scale that it reached in Vietnam.

    That’s a bare thumbnail sketch. Here are a few of the best books that described what took place:

    Embers of War and Choosing War, both by Fredrik Logevall. The first deals mainly with the French in Vietnam, the second with the U.S. I consider these the two best general books on the Vietnam War. Lately a few books describing the war from the N. Vietnamese viewpoint have come out. One of the best is Hanoi’s Road to the Vietnam War, 1954-1965, by Pierre Asselin. Drawing on N. Vietnamese sources, Asselin shows that the N. Vietnamese made conscious decisions to enlarge the war, knowing that they would be fighting the U.S., because they were confident that they would win that conflict. Other revealing books include Dereliction of Duty, by H.R. McMaster (U.S. Army major and military historian,) and among older works, one should read The Pentagon Papers (Gravel edition.)

    On Laos, among the best books are Before the Quagmire: American Intervention in Laos, 1954-1961 by William J. Rust, and on the operations side, Shadow War, The CIA’s Secret War in Laos, by Kenneth Conboy with James Morrison.

    • tomamitai

      Is that the same H.R. McMaster trying to keep Cheetolini’s White House from turning into a total clusterfuck?

      • doktorzoom

        Sure is!

      • Angela Ruzzo

        Yep.

  • doktorzoom

    Also a purely self-indulgent note: While we won’t be doing an episode recap like we did with the Cosmos reboot (Evan’s on vacay this week and jesus, an episode a day, S-Th, for two weeks?!), I’ll be coming back to this thread and Twitter tonight to talk about the first episode.

    • WIDTAP

      How about just opening a thread a day on the subject without a review, and let us Wonketteers throw in our 2¢?

      It would save on us wearing out our “O” and “T” keys.

      • doktorzoom

        An excellent idea; I’ll run it by Rebecca. It would be fine for Open Threads, which have no topic, but it might be nice to focus discussion of the show in one place.

        • mancityRed6

          seconded

      • BeachBum

        Agree.

    • Poorly Behaved Pérsistanista

      Well, shit, I assumed it was come back every Sunday through the fall. Monday thru Thursday? Dear PBS, I don’t actually watch tv every damn night of the week!

      • doktorzoom

        Be of good cheer! After the initial run, They’ll do a one-episode-per Sunday rebroadcast starting October 3. Each episode will be available to stream the week it’s rebroadcast, at the link at the end of the story. (I’ll add a note there, too)

        Also also way cool: In Vietnam, they’re streaming all ten episodes with Vietnamese subtitles.

        • aureolaborealis

          I suspect that the PBS app will allow on-demand viewing, at least during this two-week period. That’s where I last watched The Civil War a couple years ago.

  • Lyly Sirivong

    In France, not much is being taught about the Vietnam war. Even the Indochina war doesn’t get covered much. It’s all about Algeria.

    • doktorzoom

      Interesting! Also understandable, given the much closer distance and cultural connections.

    • mancityRed6

      I didn’t get to France when I was there, and I really regret it.

  • tomamitai

    I haven’t read all the comments so forgive me if someone else already pointed this out, but WWII taught the oligarchs that they could reap the benefits of big government spending without incurring too much inflation by literally blowing up the products built with that spending. That’s why we’ve been involved in one unwinnable war after another ever since. Ike warned us about it in his farewell address.

    • bookish

      I think that’s one reason, certainly. War is good business, for some people.

    • Three Finger Salute

      “War is a racket” -Gen. Smedley Butler

    • Robbertjan Brandenburg

      The military-industrial complex

      • disqus_lWwzrwNaw6

        I was fascinated to read that Ike had originally referred to the “military-industrial-Congressional complex,” but was persuaded to remove the reference to Congress from later drafts so as not to create any political hard feelings.

  • Picabo

    I know this is OT. Maria is looking like Irma 2.0. I just went through that in Savannah and feel stressed about the possibility of another one. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d5adcf054fc630f4d6034ae528206b465af0427f1cbdd8c60073200aea184172.png

    • WIDTAP

      How much worse on St. Marteen can it possible get?

    • Parakeetist

      I’m moving to Mars.

    • Three Finger Salute

      How do you solve a problem like Maria?

      Especially when it’s not the right time to talk about climate change.

  • Dept. of Space Tacos

    Hola friends…has wonkette and all its non-commentors been sued into oblivion yet?

    (fun fact, in Texas you can’t serve someone on a Sunday!)

    • Shanzgood

      We can counter sue for impersonation now, though!

      • hudson

        not on sunday. wait till monday.

    • CO

      When did he turn from legal proceedings to insanity? I was sleeping through this all.

      • Shanzgood

        When everyone he liked to antagonize and accuse of stalking him started blocking him, I think. .

        • CO

          I enjoyed the conversations of what would and wouldn’t be allowed in a court of law last night. Apparently knowyourmeme.com is a legal source lol.

          • Dept. of Space Tacos

            and far more reliable and probative than David Futrelle’s meticulously documented work on incels, or ya know, the incels own words.

        • OutOfOrbit

          i donut block’em, i just ignore’em

          • Poorly Behaved Pérsistanista

            I blocked him, but then I was all like, to meself, “what’s he saying, what’s he saying,” because I could only see the replies.

          • Jamoche

            Open the page in a private browser window; you won’t be logged in there so the blocks don’t apply. That’s how I satisfied my curiosity.

    • Poorly Behaved Pérsistanista

      I am the oblivion. Sue away, sucker.

      (He’d been getting on my nerves all week, but boy howdy, did that shit hit the fan last night.)

      • OutOfOrbit

        what’s the skinny? i missed it

        • Jamoche

          He was making a list of people he was going to sue for “stalking” him – many of whom had him blocked, which makes the whole stalking thing kind of difficult. Also AFAICT “stalking” meant “reading his Disqus profile”. Oooh, scary. Posted some long pseudo-legal-bs whine, and then started replying to comments by copying the contents of the comment with a postscript that it was being saved for evidence. Of course Dok made those comments go poof; so much for evidence.

          That’s all I saw before I went back to being logged in, where he’s been blocked for a while.

          • OutOfOrbit

            thx for the info

    • doktorzoom

      Oh, so it looks like I need to check the flagged comments, then. After brunch. (If it’s the ass who came back spoofing my identity, that one’s been banhammered and deleted.

      Sometimes I don’t Wonk on a Saturday. Tho yesterday was sort of “work” all day, watching half this series in a single go.

      • Dept. of Space Tacos

        yeah, I’m really sorry about all the extra work I cause you dok. But that dude was being a grade A ass. And you know me, I get riled up.

        When I get hired, ameros are coming your way.

        Until then, have a “Thanks for all you do!”

    • jaspersdad

      MAGA Making Attorneys Great Again

  • doktorzoom

    Also worth mentioning: If you have a Vietnam story to share (or you want more info on the show) the series website has a “Share Your Story” section.

    • mancityRed6

      that’s not a link

      • doktorzoom

        Now it is!

        • mancityRed6

          thanks doc. you do know when I call you that I think of my grandfather who was called doc, right?
          well, you do now.

          • doktorzoom

            Aww. I like to pretend I’m a Steinbeck character.

          • Arolpin

            And if you are going to be a Steinbeck character, you might as well pick his best character from his best comic novel. Hmmm, the Idaho Wonketteers might have to round up a bunch of frogs for you one of these nights.

          • doktorzoom

            I’ll take a pass on the beer milkshakes.

    • weejee

      Like how the weekly IntSums didn’t reflect current conditions, but what Washington, DC wanted to hear? They’d prolly shoot me if I shared that.

      • doktorzoom

        The series is pretty detailed about that, actually — one episode (forget which, watched five Saturday) has an amazing segment on McNamara’s attempts to quantify everything. But Crom knows how much of that is still classified.

        A FOIA project for an enterprising historian?

  • Baconzgood

    The Vietnamese call it “the war of American occupation”

    • mancityRed6

      dammit, it’s the war of American aggression,

  • btwbfdimho

    Someone mentioned Germany after the WW1 defeat.
    This is great documentary about life, sex, culture and decadence during the amazing Berlin/Weimar Republic.
    Make Anita Great Again!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgPDh764CK4&list=PLvOoLDTKc23LPBLFMZqjQ30yRlGT8EIvQ&index=4

  • Martini Ambassador 🍸

    My dad is a Korean War vet. Thankfully he was drafted late enough that he didn’t see much action, but his older brother was very traumatized by his time there and went to his grave never sharing all of the horrors he saw (we asked, but he was not inclined to share stories). I still think about that–how insulated we all were (and are) from the stark realities of war, even as it goes on around the world. I’m certainly old enough to remember the Vietnam War footage on TV, but as horrific as it was, it was miles away and not part of our immediate reality. And I still remember seeing the young men coming back broken, both mentally and physically. War is so often romanticized, and so much of an unreality, that I think warhawks like Trump have absolutely no moral concerns about how devastating it is for those that serve, and those that have to live through war being waged in their own backyards.

    • OrG

      Same as it ever was.

    • Three Finger Salute

      Trump has no moral concerns, period. He’s obsessed with winning and with discarding losers, which includes POWs and women who don’t meet his unrealistic and arguably perverse standards of beauty and perpetual youth.

      You basically have to be devoid of moral concerns to be a Republican at all.

    • WIDTAP

      My dad was a Korean War era vet. He got in about a year-and-a-half before then end, but was stationed in Japan interpreting coded signals from the Chinese. Got out without PTSD and engaged to my mother. Very lucky SOB.

    • Poorly Behaved Pérsistanista

      Born in ’57, I grew up watching Walter Cronkite give the nightly counts of dead, missing, wounded. Every goddamn night. By the time I was 14 and it was over, I was half insane with grief and sorrow and impotent rage. I’d always wished I’d been a little older because at least then I could have marched, instead of just sitting in the kitchen with my fucking meatloaf and horror.

  • mancityRed6

    who knew the Eagles would play better than the Patriots?

    • BMW

      In fairness, “Hotel California” is a pretty iconic album…wait, what?

      • mancityRed6

        I hate the eagles, and not the football team

      • mancityRed6

        the flying burrito brothers did it first and better. also, kinky friedman.

  • armed_bears

    OT, but this should be a lesson of another sort: Never try to convert Canada’s metric hours into US weeks on live TV…

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8304ec5887aaf0ecca93eb1d8ebf522573d10f3e8332a3a84f4a6476f99867e9.jpg

    • Three Finger Salute

      Only kind of OT since we’re talking about things Canada does better. (Like taking in refugees, who in Vietnam were both our draft resisters and their boat people.)

      I know this bill has no chance of passing, but at least it’s something worth fighting for. It has no chance of passing because we’ve got greedy stupids in office and Canada does not.

      Nice to know that the Kokehead brothers have their grubby fingers in a Canadian “think” tank that exists solely to undermine Canada’s humanitarian culture and liberal policies, and turn it into a zombie clone of the U$A. “You won’t recognize Canada when I’m done with it” –Scumbag Steve Harper, northern puppet with GOP hands up his ass.

      FFS Randolph and Mortimer, leave Justin alone!!!!

      • ManchuCandidate

        How they fucking tried. Harper can sit in his undies eating hotdogs and cry as “his wingnut” Canada is flushed down the fucking toilet of history.

  • SayItWithWookies

    For the reading list:
    A Bright Shining Lie by Neil Sheehan — a thorough and brilliant biography of someone who was there for almost the entirety of American involvment — especially read this if you don’t already despise William Westmoreland.

    Street without Joy by Bernard Fall — this is a series of articles/essays about the last years of the French occupation, full of lessons that US strategists and generals never learned before going into Vietnam. It gave me a visceral sense of the dense, hostile jungle that the rebels navigated with seeming effortlessness, and its detailed descriptions of various battles and engagements demonstrate how hopeless the French effort was.

    • Picabo

      I will up vote anyone who references Bernard Fall. He warned us early and often.

    • Finnibar87

      Back when they ran long pieces, The New Yorker excerpted the shit out of Sheehan’s book.

      (Yes, the New Yorker articles were once even longer)

    • RobespierreHoo

      Much great literature and reportage. Michael Herr’s “Dispatches” is excellent. Bright Shining Lie top drawer, along with Times’ colleague’s Halberstam’s “The Best and the Brightest”, which gives the war the patrician, Ivy League,American exceptionalism and” vigah” patina it was much about.

    • ManchuCandidate

      About Face by David Hackworth.

    • doktorzoom

      Sheehan gets a lot of screen time in the documentary, as do Vann’s attempts to get the message that All Is Not Going Swimmingly to the higher-ups.

  • Notreelyhelping

    I worked with a woman whose husband flew helicopters in Vietnam. She took him to see Apocalypse Now, and he laughed through the whole thing. Hearts of darkness.

    • mancityRed6

      dad was mostly offshore, but he knew a few people who did those river cruises, and a few in the zippo brigade.
      he always said he understood why they hated us.

  • Dept. of Space Tacos

    just went to corner store and say a drone in the sky. I can see why people mistake them for UFO’s – fucking thing looked like a UFO.

    • UnsaltedSinner

      If you don’t know what it is, it is a UFO.

      • Finnibar87

        Unidentified, you know.

      • Dept. of Space Tacos

        i love you pedants.
        ; )

      • Dept. of Space Tacos

        but seriously it did look like an old school flying saucer there for a bit.

  • BMW

    1983 PBS documentary “Vietnam: A Television History”

    Anyone know where I can stream this from?

  • Jonny On Maui

    OT: Because the best way to understand what’s happening in the sky is to pour over a 2000 year old book. Better have your shit together by next Saturday…

    http://www.foxnews.com/science/2017/09/15/biblical-prophecy-claims-world-will-end-on-sept-23-christian-numerologists-claim.html

    • TJ Barke

      No one may know the hour or the day…

      • bobbert

        Ah, you’re quoting that hippie again.

    • mancityRed6

      I’ve been burned before.

      • The Militant Homosexual Agenda

        Cheer up. It’s not like it’s the end of the world, or anything!

    • weejee

      The sillies. That’s the day tRump will completely lose it and resign.

    • Notreelyhelping

      Shit. I have concert tickets that night.

      • mancityRed6

        burn that shit to the ground.

      • Three Finger Salute

        To Bruce Springsteen? That’s his birthday. I gather the fundies will blame him for the apocalypse because he gave a finger to St. Reagan.

    • WIDTAP

      When Foxnews becomes desperate for clickbait.

    • SayItWithWookies

      Fox classifies that under FoxScience?! (Note: question mark/exclamation point not part of original subject heading)

      • HorseChestnut

        THIS

      • Hamilton Ω, AKA Formerly DN

        “FoxScience” is almost as ludicrous as “Christain(*) Science”.

        Note (*): I have a demon in me that forces me to spell christain that way. That is, except when I’m talking about people like Jimmy Carter, in which case I can gather the will to use “Christian” instead.

        • H0mer0

          they do good journalism even if they don’t do medicine(IMHO)

          • SayItWithWookies

            I used to read the Christian Science Monitor every week when it was a paper. I can only guess that the paper came first (founded, no doubt, by an upstanding journalist named Christian Science) and then the church came along and decided to destroy the paper’s reputation by appropriating their name and attaching it to a nutball religion.

          • Hamilton Ω, AKA Formerly DN

            I used to get CSM because it was pretty good in spite of its name. My selective interpretation mechanism lead me to erroneously conclude that @angrikitteh:disqus was talking about Fox News.

            Hey, I just woke up after oversleeping by five hours…

          • SayItWithWookies

            I thought so too, until I hit “medicine,” and then it made sense.

          • H0mer0

            Phew! Thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt (I meant CSM)

          • Hamilton Ω, AKA Formerly DN

            I used acetone to soften the words “good” and “journalism” to the point where I could read your not-comment and be able to nod my head sagely in agreement.

            However, because of the fumes I have a massive headache.

            Oh. I was thinking you were describing Fox News. Now, I get it you were talking about CSM. I used to get that paper, it was pretty good although I could not figure out whey they called it that. It seemed sort of silly.

      • jesterpunk

        Remember some RWNJ said that since Al Gore and liberals believe in science and climate change republicans have to be against it?

        • SayItWithWookies

          Gore must have said, at some point, that Democrats weren’t going to make policy just by opposing everything their opponents said, and then the GOP was all, “Well, I guess we know how to respond to this one.”

    • jesterpunk

      They have been predicting the world will end for years and every time they are wrong they claim its because enough people prayed.

      • Three Finger Salute

        And yet, gays are still getting married, and the world didn’t end, but do they ever admit they’re wr-wr-wr-wr-wrrrrong about blaming gays for the apocalypse? No, not at all. Funny how natural disasters always seem to strike the fundie states worse than the secular, scientific heathen ones. How do they figure that? “God’s just testing you”?

        • jesterpunk

          God’s got bad aim?

      • The Militant Homosexual Agenda

        Disaster avoided = God loves us

        Disaster strikes = God hates fags

        They’re CYA’d either way.

      • Hamilton Ω, AKA Formerly DN

        Sort of a cheap way to “prove” that prayer works to the rubes. If god existed they would have been raptured already and we wouldn’t have to put up with their nonsense.

        nincompoops

        • jesterpunk

          But if God is omnipotent and you cant change his mind wouldn’t praying for him to change his plans go against the whole thing?

          • Hamilton Ω, AKA Formerly DN

            But if God is omniscient, in which case he knew what you were going to be praying for and what would happen already anyway, isn’t praying for anything sort of irrelevant?

            Or something. A hallmark of utter bullshit is how easily it is to become flummoxed by the twisted “logic” that leads to brain necrosis, evangelical behavior, snake handling (or some other equivalent idiocy, like glossolalia) and then death. /s

          • coozledad

            I believe that infantile (fundamentalist) thought systems reconfigure the brain in such a way that renders it unsuitable for processing all but the most basic information, and even that capacity becomes sorely limited.

            I’ve always found it weird that many schizophrenics experience aural hallucinations that are replete with religious overtones, but that’s a whole different disorder. Sheer religious stupidity is in its own class.

          • David Roosa

            snake handling libelz

    • Hamilton Ω, AKA Formerly DN

      Here we go again. I’m so sick of this christain doomsday shit. A clear demonstration of how utterly fucked-up these morons are.

      This doomsday, too, will come and pass. The morons will shrug, reset their idiot clock to the next doomsday and proceed to wail and gnash their teeth all fucking over again. Until the next fucking regularly-scheduled end of days.

      Idiots.

      • Walter Wellstone

        You scare them, they send you money or vote for you, or turn against a given group, etc. It works.

      • wait! what?

        9/23 isn’t catchy, at all. That can’t be the right day. God would obviously pick a cool date like 11/11/11.

        • Hamilton Ω, AKA Formerly DN

          Well, 2017 is a prime number, as is 23. However, 9 is not a prime number, as it is 3 times 3, three being a prime number. Therefore, we have three primes: 2017, 23, 3. This means that the date 3/23/2017 has already come and gone and we are still here.

          Therefore, it is all bullshit.

          QED

          And then the murders began.

          • wait! what?

            I guess 11/23/2017 is the fall back date if God cancels.

            Is there a 13/23/2017 on the apocalypse calendar?

          • Three Finger Salute

            Oh, not the fucking Number 23 conspiracy again. There’s a 15-minute YouTube video grabs at everything from Disney’s “Zootopia” to Edgar Allen Poe’s “The Raven” to “prove,” once and for all, that Justin Trudeau is the antichrist and that his own father was a pedophile who sacrificed Michel to the pagan god of the mountaintop, so that Justin the pizza demon could “inherit the throne” — at the behest of the queen, the Buildabear Group, and (who else) the Rothschilds.

            It’s all about the “number 23” and all these 23s and 32s that “mysteriously” keep showing up in the Trudeau family’s life. Michel died at 23 on a Friday the 13th; Justin graduated college at 23 and got engaged at 32, in 2003; Maggie gave birth to Justin at 23 “on the feast day of Mithra, the sun god” (so… Christmas); the initials of Whistler Blackcomb, British Columbia (the ski resort where he died) are a bunch of 23s (W being the 23rd letter and B and C, 2 and 3), “CBC” is “3-2-3”; the middle brother Sacha’s real name is Alexander, like the conquering general who died at 32 in the year 323; there’s two surviving brothers who each have three children… on and on and on it goes, and what any of this has to do with Zootopia, nobody knows.

            Bonus: Jim Carrey is the only one who knows the truth, because he made some stupid movie called “Number 23” that is Nicolas Cage levels of awful — and he’s from Canada. But the “Tru World Order” drugged him to shut him up, and probably killed his girlfriend too.

            These people have too much time on their hands that they should be using to access mental health treatment, instead of making ridiculous and arguably libelous YouTube videos. Shut the fuck up, conspiracists, you’re out of your element.

          • bobbert

            Also, Illuminatus! libelz.

        • Three Finger Salute

          Or 4/20/20 just to fuck with us.

      • shivaskeeper

        They don’t just reset the clock on it though. Well, they do, but it’s far worse than that.

        Their doomsday bullshit infects and informs literally everything they do. No need to worry about climate change… doomsday is coming. No need to not drill for fossil fuels… doomsday. No need to worry about the next generation… doomsday. No need to worry about the least of these… you get the picture.

        The are a death cult at this point. No need to do anything here since the eternal reward is right around the corner.

        • coozledad

          I’ve had a sales clerk tell me that if we quit recycling, Jesus will come back quicker.

          When the only sane reply you can make is “Lady, your ass is batshit crazy!” chances are you’re in Danville, VA.

          • shivaskeeper

            That is the sort of thing I am talking about.

            They need to hear mire often that they are bat shit crazy. Often and loudly. No free pass because their particular insanity revolves around Jesus.

    • jesterpunk

      Also if no one else will do it I will.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0GFRcFm-aY

      • Jonny On Maui

        I knew that I could count on you…

    • The Wanderer

      Pfft. Back in 1989, some Christian preacher man named Wisenant started circulating cassette tapes and pamphlets saying that he had concluded that the Rapture of the Church would begin during a 72-hour period in September of that year. I bet a coworker $100 that we’d all still be here after that 72 hours. He declined, which was a pity.

    • therblig

      “NASA has repeatedly said Planet X is a hoax.”

      because nasa is too damn classy to say “anyone who believes in planet x is a stupid fucking moron who should kill themselves before passing on their idiot dna!”

  • Poorly Behaved Pérsistanista

    “Senator Bill Cassidy says he’s close to having the votes to pass Obamacare repeal.”

    Close don’t count, you twisted, mean muthafucka.

  • weejee

    Not sure about watching this. Might start some things churning I’ve pretty well put to rest.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/84acb0486e4ad4763f7273999d2e106d0278cb8e841ab2cd5acbd6fb25b7432d.jpg

    • mancityRed6

      for some it’s a raw spot, a wound that just doesn’t heal. don’t watch if it’s gonna hurt.

      • Phried Ω

        Speaking from experience, there really are no politics in the war zone. It’s pretty much a day to day existence. I think I see the politics of that war the same now as I did while I was there. I’ve never understood my fellow veterans who thought the was such a thing as winning. Just like insurgent wars since. Winning is when the bad guys stop shooting at you and blowing shit up. How do you know when that is?

        • mancityRed6

          I was born a year before the fall, and dad was offshore most of his time, so…yeah…he’s happy that he’s being recognised now.

        • Three Finger Salute

          “Speaking from experience, there really are no politics in the war zone.”

          Or religion. There’s an old saying, there are no atheists in foxholes. Actually, there are, but there won’t be if the brass has their way. They’ll be intentional victims of “friendly” fire.

    • Parakeetist

      I was only born in 1973, but I have always found it very hard to watch or study about this war.

      • Maggielle

        As a woman born in 1952, I was in no danger of being drafted, of course, but the Vietnam war was pivotal in my life. It was the point, for me, when the train of history rounded a curve and I fell off and never really got back on course again. I’m not saying it ruined me, just that it changed everything, even though I never served in the armed forces in any capacity.

        • Three Finger Salute

          I’m actually kind of pissed at the (select group of) feminists who fought to be included in combat roles. So their idea of equality is to get slaughtered on the battlefield in stupid wars just like the men? With the added threat of rape, especially considering where we’re fighting now and the culture of that region? How about fighting so that nobody gets slaughtered on the battlefield in stupid wars? How about ending Selective Service instead of being jealous that the boys have to put their name in the hat? What the hell happened to the antiwar feminism of the sixties?

          • HellhathnofuryDemme

            I think that one of the main reasons they wanted combat roles, was for purposes of promotion.
            They were being passed over without combat role experience.
            These soldiers have to rely on the politicians to keep them out of harm’s way.
            I agree with you, but THEIR job is to be soldiers, not politicians.

          • Maggielle

            Maybe members of the Wonketeriat who are serving or have served in the armed forces while female can respond to this with more authority than I can.

  • Lyly Sirivong

    My grandparents were vietnamese people who came to Laos in the late 40’s / early 50’s. My parents were born in Laos but they spoke vietnamese with my grandparents. I speak vietnamese with my parents (badly).
    As far as I know, the Indochina war and the Vietnam war didn’t have too much of an impact on my family’s life until the Pathet Lao came to power. Suddenly, the vietnamese community was not well regarded. Fortunately my family knew people who could make laotian identity documents. That’s how we got a laotian family name.
    One of my uncles got into trouble though because the police found out his documents were fake and he was arrested. He didn’t stay in jail for long but got beaten up pretty badly.
    My mother told this story at a family dinner the other day. She thought it was hilarious because for her, it was just another case of her brother ending up in trouble for a stupid reason. I thought it was horrifying.

    • Three Finger Salute

      Coming yesterday to an American “detention center” near you.

      We really are no better than the “enemies” we fought.

      • Lyly Sirivong

        Before Arpaio, I would have thought that was an exaggeration. But now, I’m not so sure anymore.

    • Maggielle

      One of the books I’ve always kept in my possession, despite radical downsizing to a tiny apartment, is Without Honor: Defeat in Vietnam and Cambodia by Arnold Isaacs (1983, Johns Hopkins University Press). Even though Laos isn’t mentioned in the title, the book has a very good section on Laos and its Hmong (Meo) ethnic groups and the effect especially in the highlands of Laos of its inevitable involvement in the entire regional conflict. I’ll have to re-read it to refresh my memory about any discussion of how Vietnamese immigrants to Laos fared in general. I’m probably going to have to agree with you about “horrifying”, especially about your mom’s story. I have no experience of what it’s like to live amidst such upheaval and uncertainty.

      I’ve mentioned this book before, so I’m being Repeato-Girl, but it’s that good, plus everyone forgets what you write on the internet except when it’s horribly humiliating, then it lives forever.

      https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1948797.Without_Honor

      • Lyly Sirivong

        Thanks for the recommendation ! I know very little about the Laotian civil war. I didn’t even know it happened until a few years ago.

    • doktorzoom

      Mature, thoughtful response: Damn, that’s one hell of a story, and it’s incredible how many people have family stories along similar lines, depending how many generations they go back.

      Instant and far less mature reaction: So, are ya Chinese or Japanese?

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_CaZ4EAexQ

      • Lyly Sirivong

        There isn’t a big japanese community here so I never get asked that. Most people assume I’m chinese. I’ve lost count of the times men (because it’s always men!) have come up to me saying “Ni hao !”

  • Poorly Behaved Pérsistanista

    OT: Huz and I went with a friend to a Drag Brunch this morning at an Irish Pub. It was fabulous and fun but I had 2 Bloody Mary’s so now I gotta go drink strong black tea and try to get my afternoon going, while there is still a little of it left. Oiy.

  • OrdinaryJoe

    Let us all take a moment this afternoon to remember where Donald J Trump was when shit hit the fan for the rest of us.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvwQmxLaknc

    • amrak63

      The grunts’ favorite band. Good choice. ^_^

    • BMW

      But his heel spurs!

      • efoveks

        Joe DiMaggio played pro baseball, despite his. Trump’s are so trivial–if they even exist– that he cannot even remember which heel they affect. As someone who has (non painful) bone spurs, let me just share this: if you got ’em, you know which foot they’re on because all you have to do is LOOK.

        • BMW

          In fairness, spurs effect different people differently…but the not remembering which foot is a compelling argument that it was probably bullshit.

          • OrdinaryJoe

            Also, the fact that everything that comes out of his mouth is bullshit is probable a pretty compelling argument that his bone spur story is bullshit.

      • OrdinaryJoe

        A good case of jungle rot would have fixed those feet of his just fine.

        • efoveks

          But wouldn’t that make his ass look big? I mean, without those nasty bone spurs to distract,…

    • amrak63

      Al Franken needs to redo “Operation Chickenhawk” to include Trump.

      • OrdinaryJoe

        A Republican is someone who thinks it’s an honor to die for your country, just so long as it’s someone else’s kid doing the dying.

      • Rok E Raccoon

        Yes. Maybe something like this, ”Before going on patrol the Lt. ‘Mad Dog’ Mattis gathers his platoon together. He learns that PFC Trump has gone AWOL again, probably scouting locations for a new luxury hotel. Pvt Limbaugh’s pack inspection reveals he’s ditched all his ammunition, and is humping 50 pounds of Twinkies and Oxycontin. Corporal Boehner is still drunk two days after returning from R&R. and asks to be excused. As Lt. Mattis begins to explain the mission, Medic Ben Carson interrupts him with his story about how he stabbed a bully, which causes the platoon to burst into derisive laughter. Mattis eventually quiets the men and orders them to move out, as he quietly mutters to himself, ‘some assholes deserve to be shot’.

    • Rags

      Saw them at the Fillmore in SF back in the day, thanks to a high lottery number. Woot!

  • amrak63

    IIRC, before the French (never mind the USA) ever showed up, Imperial China periodically tried to conquer Vietnam. The Chinese would succeed for a few years, maybe a few decades, but the Vietnamese always rose up and threw out the invaders sooner or later. This went on for centuries. The French and we should have read up on the local history before either of us ever went there, then maybe they and we would have been smart enough to stay out.

    • Swampgas_Man

      But Commies! And Domino Theory!

      • amrak63

        The very fact that we won the Cold War in spite of losing the Vietnam War proves how trivial Vietnam actually was to our national interests–but of course, the ruling class of that time was determined never to repeat the mistake of Munich again, and they feared that any sensible concessions were Munich Part 2.

        • Three Finger Salute

          Vietnam wasn’t our war, but we didn’t “win” the Cold War either. The USSR collapsed under its own weight just like we’re going to. Gorbachev said it, “when we are gone, you’ll have no one to fight but yourselves” and boy was he right. We’re a Russian outpost anyway, and spent so much time fighting “communism” that we went full fascist. We ruined people’s lives with “wars” against a plant and humane healthcare policy, rather than implement programs that would keep people from hitting rock bottom hard and not being able to get back up. By America’s standards, Canada is the Soviet Union on steroids because they don’t kick cancer patients or worship the maple flag before every hockey game. America just loses over and over again expecting different results, but pretends it’s winning all the time.

          • amrak63

            OK, edited.

            And the other side only lost the first Cold War. They seem to be winning the second one so far–the one fought with tweets instead of bullets.

      • Walter Wellstone

        This is why I’ve always been partial to Pizza Hut.

    • Dept. of Space Tacos

      wow, yeah that would have been helpful.

      I think I read the portions of the “Pentagon Papers” and IIRC, they start with the French’s entry, which still should have been a goddamn clue.

    • BrendaKay

      Learn from history? What kind of logic is that?

    • altleftjohn

      This is America! History is bunk!

    • jesterpunk

      The same lesson could have been learned with Afghanistan. But you know what they say.

      “There’s an old saying in Tennessee — I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can’t get fooled again.”

      —George W Bush

      • Three Finger Salute

        YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

    • Lyly Sirivong

      I once saw a documentary about Vietnam. They were interviewing an old man who was working for the french. They asked him “how did you get over french colonization so quickly ?” The old man answered : “the French might have colonized us for a century, but the Chinese ruled over us for about a thousand years. We have a bigger grudge against the Chinese.”

      • amrak63

        By the same token, Vietnam has more or less buried the hatchet with us due to our mutual suspicion of China.

  • mancityRed6

    Kareem Hunt just made a touchdown run, but taken away by a fucking flag.
    dog dammit.

    • efoveks

      ??Penalty for taunting, so they still got the points.

      • mancityRed6

        13-10. suck it pats

        • efoveks

          Smack down of the season. :D

  • DerrickWildcat
    • Ωbjectifier

      Gawd I hate that fuckin movie.

      • DerrickWildcat

        It has John Wayne so it’s totally true.

        • The Wanderer

          So Vietnam was actually fought in Alabama? With all the Agent Orange sprayed around liberally, it would explain a lot.

      • Notreelyhelping

        Michael Herr said it wasn’t about Vietnam, it was about Santa Monica.

    • wait! what?

      I liked it. The foreshadowing of Peter-san’s death was very subtle.

      • Phried Ω

        Who knew the central highlands of Viet Nam looks so much like Columbus, Georgia?

    • Phried Ω

      Beyond shameless propaganda on the taxpayer dime and the oldest combatants the US has ever fielded.

    • doktorzoom

      I liked the part where John Wayne and a little Vietnamese boy watch the sunset from the beach.

      In a country with not one bit of coastline facing west.

  • Swampgas_Man

    The only Vietnam doc I really followed was Dick Cavett’s Vietnam recently. I wasn’t born until ’64 and thank merciful heavens none of my family was over there, so I wasn’t really conscious of the war except as background on the Huntley/Brinkly news show.

  • guppy06

    If only the Wonkette media empire had some sort of television and media blog to do reviews like this on.

    /ducks

    • mancityRed6

      I’m gonna be happy with what I have.

    • doktorzoom

      Yeah, it’s a thought, all right… but the little ducks all lied down.

  • Dept. of Space Tacos

    If I can, I’d like to recommend a fictional movie, perhaps one of the earliest about Vietnam. IIRC, it was the first film for R. Lee Ermey (the full metal jacket Drill Instructor).

    It’s called the Boys of Company C and it’s fucking great. Accurate (?) I dunno. But very compelling.

  • DerrickWildcat

    If they wanted people to watch it, why did they put it on at the same time as, “The Orville?”

    • mancityRed6

      there’s a new dancing with the stars on.

      • DerrickWildcat

        Also football and the emmys or whatever and a new, Alaska: The Last Frontier and a new, Storage Wars. Probably only 5 people gonna watch the war show.

        • mancityRed6

          fuck, my days are so full

        • Three Finger Salute

          It’s too thinky and stuff.

        • mancityRed6

          oooh, ghost adventures is on the hulu

          • DerrickWildcat

            If you has the HULU you better watch, “Line of Duty.”
            It’s unbelievably good.

    • ManchuCandidate

      Because “The Orville” is fucking awful.

      • therblig

        better or worse than “Quark”?

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIXlSMsndp0

        • mancityRed6

          yes

        • doktorzoom

          Richard Benjamin: Star of so many bad shows he’s actually good.

          EDIT: And a ship that looked disturbingly like the “Madame” ventriloquist dummy.

      • Marion in Savannah

        Not even stupid funny?

    • BMW

      The Emmys are on tonight.

  • jaspersdad

    In southern BC, I met many Americans fleeing the draft. I had 2 generations of high school teachers that left the US. One for the Korean war and one for Vietnam.

    I learned how to grow the best devil weed from one.

    • Three Finger Salute

      I read somewhere that Justin’s damnable warmongering predecessor removed information about the draft-resisters from government websites. Fuck him for dragging Canada into America’s never-ending oil crusades, that now they’re stuck in because of the ISIS cancer that we created.

      • jaspersdad

        There was much gnashing of teeth by the right when Trudeau immediately pulled our fighters out shortly after being elected. Even though he increased the number of advisers and training forces, it didn’t satisfy the bang for the buck that the right craves.

        • ManchuCandidate

          But then again most of them are fucking idiots who thought a mere 60 F-35s would only cost $16 billion.

          • jaspersdad

            What is it now? Ten times that?

          • ManchuCandidate

            Naw, “only” 5 times. Enough to force us to kill most social programs to pay for it. Which is probably what PM Fatty wanted.

          • jaspersdad

            I have a brother, a former CAF member, who is in management now for an aerospace firm and deals directly with DND. He’s said from the beginning that Canada needs none of the F-35s capabilities and it’s the wrong aircraft for our air force. The best article I’ve read appears in Foxtrot Alpha.

            “The Super Hornet, with its low acquisition cost (less than half the cost of a single F-35) and much lower operating costs could allow for Canada to maintain its organic crew training program based out of CFB Cold Lake, Alberta. For decades the 410th Tactical Fighter Operational Training Squadron has become notorious for training some of the best fighter pilots in the world under Canada’s own terms. The loss of such a capability would give up a fair portion of Canada’s sovereignty over their pilot corps and their unique air power doctrine.”

            https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-right-fighter-for-canada-is-the-super-hornet-not-t-1587492909

          • Three Finger Salute

            “We’re not gonna just whip out our F35s to show the world how big they are.” -Justin Trudeau

            Much hemming and hawwing. No, he’s right. He’s channeling Kubrick by basically saying that war is a dick-measuring contest. But he didn’t say “dick,” so it still meets the standard for Canadian politeness.

  • The Wanderer

    I’ll be watching this. I’ve been trying to fill in gaps in what I know of certain events (the Pacific War between Chile and Peru-Bolivia, for example, and the Philippine Insurrection) and Ken Burns makes good documentaries.

    One of cousins served there. He wasn’t quite right for a very long while afterward.

  • Bananas Foster

    My dad spent two years of the war stateside at Barksdale. (Being a lame non-flying Air Force officer.) He had a deal with the “State Department” to keep him out of combat and stateside as long as he transitioned into a job there afterwards.

    • mancityRed6

      my boy’s father in law is an ex spook and has some great stories.

      • Bananas Foster

        Ex spooks have the best stories. My dad, like many, hightailed it when the idiots put Turner in charge.

        • mancityRed6

          he did mostly southeast Asia. he met Carter and his family when he volunteered for protection and he stopped Marcos from taking suitcases full of gold out of the Phillipines.
          yeah, he’s fun to get drunk with.

          • Bananas Foster

            My dad started with the Middle East and then transitioned to East Asia. He has a great story about breaking into…. You know what, I probably shouldn’t tell that one. ;)

          • mancityRed6

            my first father in law was targeted for death by Saddam, so he joined the Iraqi national guard. a couple of years of good service he got a visa, and promptly fled.
            they offered to renew his passport if he would come to the airport to a private plane. he said, “nah”.
            they tore the house apart after they found out he fled.

          • Bananas Foster

            Wow. Smart man. My brother’s father-in-law worked directly for the Shah of Iran. The whole family had to hightail it at the start of the revolution.

            We find it amusing that our two families found each other.

          • mancityRed6

            that is cool.

          • doktorzoom

            My first wife’s little sister married the son of a minor official who had worked for the Somoza regime. His older brother didn’t like living in the USA, because you can’t just bribe cops who pull you over for speeding. “It’s no fair here,” he said.

          • mancityRed6

            this is not a one up thing, this is what I’ve lived through.

          • doktorzoom

            …show business?

    • doktorzoom

      Oh! Oh! There is a brief mention of people who stayed out of the war through college deferments (Photo of crowd with Bill Clinton at center) and those whose family connections could get them into an elite Guard or Reserves unit (photo of some cocaine addict).

  • alwayspunkindrublic

    When I was behind the gun-toting butthole at the public library the other day, I noticed the companion book on the shelf, so I snatched it up and have been reading it since. Glad the guy with the gat didn’t spot the book at the same time.

    I can, so far, confirm Dok’s assertion that the subject is presented with fresh insight and historical context.

    • mancityRed6

      and it was…?

    • mancityRed6

      dammit, man, what was the book?

      • alwayspunkindrublic

        Oh shit, sorry. The companion book to the Burns Viet Nam doc.

        • mancityRed6

          *sighs* I’m happy now.

          • alwayspunkindrublic

            Sorry you had to nag.

          • mancityRed6

            don’t be, I just kinda channeled my inner Thompson there for a minute.

      • doktorzoom

        That would be The Vietnam War: An Intimate History, by Geoffrey C. Ward, here with that happy Wonkette kickback linky. (Always Be Closing)

        • alwayspunkindrublic

          Thx. I don’t know why I find links so formidable.

        • mancityRed6

          I already did one, give me a minute before I get the other.

    • Bananas Foster

      I’m sorry, am I interpreting this right?

      Open carry in LIBRARY?!

      • alwayspunkindrublic

        You never know when the toddlers at Story Hour might get out of line…

      • mancityRed6

        welcome to America

        • alwayspunkindrublic

          Welcome to Arizona.

          • Seek

            I’m boycotting AZ after I was there for Spring Training and two armed idiots got in an argument in the bar of the restaurant I was in. Standing up shouting and pointing at their guns. Fun times. Drinking and armed, what could go wrong?

          • alwayspunkindrublic

            Don’t blame you. Allowing firearms into bars is a terrifying idea. As a working musician, I spend way too much time in bars, and I’ve seen some ugly shit because of it.

    • Anna Rompage

      Maybe he was there to protect the books from the alt right book burning Nazis?

      On second thought, probably not…

  • OrdinaryJoe

    In other news yesterday, *45 was greeted at JBA by Intergalactic High General Stiletto Highheels before his speech to the troops.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/749301d1603dbde037395ef01fe032d77b1adc1e0967c3c5d56f9ac27854210e.jpg

    • Nounverb911

      And then he shoved her off the stage.

    • ManchuCandidate

      “Do I know you?”
      -Trump

    • SayItWithWookies

      He finally found a way to touch her without getting his hand slapped away.

      • OrdinaryJoe

        I see he finally managed to find the blue pants for that suit.

  • Treehopper1104

    I’m not sure I want to watch a Ken Burns documentary if there aren’t going to be fiddles involved.

    • alwayspunkindrublic

      “Danang Farewell” just doesn’t have the same yearning quality to it.

  • Nounverb911
    • Mehmeisterjr

      He’ll pay some flunky to shy a gold ball at her and mark it on his scorecard that he made the shot.

    • miss_grundy

      It appears the Toddler unleashed a tweet in which he hits her with a golf ball. I’m sure his misogynistic, sexist pig fans loved it. Since he has decided to act this way, I hope Hillz keeps going after him. And Jamele Harris. And everyone else who believes in exercising their right to free speech. Oh, and while I’m here fuck Tangerini and his entire administration, especially the sister of the dog killer, Sarah Huckabee Sanders. If she wants to give up her free speech rights, she can move to Russia and work for the real boss.

    • Ω cynmac’s reclaiming her time

      Does it matter any more?

  • Marion in Savannah

    Nope. Not gonna watch it. Lived through that time, and friends died there.

    • alwayspunkindrublic

      My oldest brother served there. You want a conversation killer with him, mention Viet Nam. He’s never talked about it.

      • Marion in Savannah

        I’ll never forget the evening that the boy I went out to the senior prom with, who was at Da Nang, hit the gutter when a car backfired. He didn’t talk about his time there either.

        • alwayspunkindrublic

          The day he came home is still etched in my mind. I was still a kid. I think soldiers had a superstition about coming home…you didn’t want to say anything ahead of time to jinx it, so we didn’t know. He just walked in the door, and my mother literally collapsed in tears of shock and joy.

        • proudgrampa

          proudgramma talks about a guy she dated who came back with leech scars all over his back.

          We don’t have a freakin’ clue what happened over there.

        • doktorzoom

          Similar experience on a rafting trip with a vet when a pocket of sap, or a tiny rock, or something, in the campfire went “bang!”

          Bruce was a weird fucker, but I think he went in to Vietnam weird and came out even weirder.

          • Marion in Savannah

            The guy I’m referring to went over a sweet kid and came back paranoid enough that he had to sit in corners facing the door and slept with a gun under his pillow. That war did awful things to people.

          • Zippy W Pinhead

            I know people like that. So sad what that godforsaken war did to some people

      • Eileen Besse

        Like the WWII vets.

  • Notreelyhelping

    Dad was a WWII vet. Mom was a Korean War vet. I was a Huntley & Brinkley vet.

    • Hamilton Ω, AKA Formerly DN

      Indelibly burned into my neuronal matrix: “Good night, Chet…”

      • Notreelyhelping

        Oh man, I do miss Brinkley. At the 1980 Democratic convention: “Well. We’re back. And it looks like very little is still happening.”

      • altleftjohn

        And that’s the way it was.

        • Hamilton Ω, AKA Formerly DN

          Yeah, and Cronkite, too.

          I also distinctly remember on the nightly updates of killed and wounded counts during the Vietnam conflict. That left an impression on my also too.

    • proudgrampa

      Cronkite and Sevareid.

      • TundraGrifter

        Ford and Chevy. Starbucks and Peets. Eisenhower and Stevenson. Your family was either Huntley-Brinkley or Cronkite.

        • proudgrampa

          Actually, my family was an American Motors family. Really.

          Maybe that’s why I’ve always been such a contrarian…

        • Royal Ugly Globalist Dude

          Oreo or Hydrox

          • TundraGrifter

            Coke or Pepsi? Canada Dry or Vernor’s? Club soda or seltzer? Life is all about choices.

            Take Mr. Trump – apparently every day he has to ask himself “Dollars or rubles?”

        • Ω cynmac’s reclaiming her time

          Ford, Eisenhower and Cronkite. Man, am I old.

  • r m reddicks

    Usually when I see some Ken Burns something something come up I check to see if maybe there’s a “King of Queens” rerun on the goober tube. However, it looks like the Dear Doktor may have convinced me to take a peek at this.

  • Suttree

    I am going to say that the worst side affect of having a New Yorker subscription is passing out on the pot. I woke up happy though!

    • doktorzoom

      While smoking and reading the New Yorker, while reading the New Yorker on the toilet, or both?

      Inquiring minds, etc.

      • Suttree

        I feel bad that i don’t have room for anything but one single New Yorker. It is a clean well lighted place.

    • proudgrampa

      Say what you mean, mean what you say! ;-)

  • thatdamnbob

    How many Vietnam vets does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
    take your time, because whatever answer you give, it will be wrong.
    you know why?
    Because you weren’t there, man.

    • Hamilton Ω, AKA Formerly DN

      Of those who I know were there, they probably would not appreciate joking about that stuff with a lightbulb joke about vets. Unless it was a lightbulb joke about the “management” at the time.

      • Shanzgood

        I think it’s in poor taste.

      • thatdamnbob

        A Vietnam vet told me the joke, and he was telling the joke to another Vietnam vet, if you get my meaning

  • Hamilton Ω, AKA Formerly DN

    I’m thinking of doing some binge-viewing once I get my AV Cabinet and etc. completed and the flatscreen is running again. I’m thinking of watching all of the Ken Burns documentaries. Any advice as to which order or what to avoid, etc. would be appreciated as it may help others who may be considering doing this.

    TIA!

    • TundraGrifter

      I don’t know there are any to avoid. The range is amazing – Baseball (that will take you a while!), Mark Twain, Jazz, Blues, Lewis & Clark, I think there is even one on the Grand Canyon and the Johnstown Flood and The West (this is all from memory so if I made a mistake you get what you pay for!). I would alternate long-short but other than that – go for it!

      • Ω cynmac’s reclaiming her time

        I enjoyed the Civil War one and the Baseball one.

    • artem1s

      the Lewis and Clark one is pretty special. It reminded me how much of the continent was just flat out wilderness 200 years ago. Even the parts we think of as settled by 1800.

    • HellhathnofuryDemme

      The doc on the civil war is stunning!

  • wait! what?

    My step-brother served in Vietnam as an MP. He always used to say:

    “The war amplified and exposed every single character flaw I had. When I left I had a very clear understanding of the type of person I was and what I was capable of and I did not like that at all.”

  • ManchuCandidate

    To me the worst of the “me” generation were those who wanted the war, but didn’t go aka the Chickenhawks.

    And then fast forward 30-40 years later, they are still the worst of the political generation who are all about shoving US Amercia into pointless wars, buying useless weapons for said pointless wars (F-35!), but freak out if they have to get taxed a whole 0.5% more to pay for the healthcare and pensions of those who went.

    • proudgrampa

      Precisely. There were a lot of people in those days who thought we should be there, but didn’t seem to care for the sacrifice…

      • weejee

        Dick Cheney had better things to do.

        • proudgrampa

          Don’t get me started on that prick…

        • Mehmeisterjr

          To be fair, at least Cheney had the bravery to shoot his lawyer pal in the face for looking too much like a quail. That took guts!

    • mancityRed6

      those that push for it most, never saw it happen.
      except for McCain, but fuck him.

    • HellhathnofuryDemme

      That’s why, in 2003, at the beginning of the war in Iraq, Charlie Rangel, a black, NY, Democratic congressman, proposed reinstating the draft.
      “Fighting forces should more closely reflect the economic makeup of the nation.”
      In other words: don’t come into my neighborhood for all your GD soldiers!
      http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/07/rangel.draft/

      • Marion in Savannah

        They got rid of the draft because the goddamn 1% didn’t want their precious spawn turned into cannon fodder by their friends in the military industrial complex. Fuckers.

        • David Chaillou

          How about the draft, and your probability of being picked is proportional to the net worth of either you or your parents, whichever is greatest? “Much shall be asked of him to whom much was given”.

  • mancityRed6

    20-13, but at least 6 minutes left. KC over Philly

    • SayItWithWookies

      Looks like it was a home-run derby, but good for the Royals anyway.

      • mancityRed6

        no, the Chiefs…wait

      • r m reddicks

        What!? They’re playing against themselves? Sorry, time/sports warp.

  • Suttree

    So yes Ken Burns is good.

    The main thing that I got from him was jazz cds.

  • Bub, the cynical zombie

    OT, but I’m curious – did Wolf Tracker get the heave-ho?

    • mancityRed6

      apparently so. no more faking accounts.
      unless I am.
      or you are.
      fuck, am I real? are you? oh jesus

      • Bub, the cynical zombie

        Hmmmm, let’s see…rotting, greenish flesh, staggering gait, occasional moaning, lust for the sweet tangy flavour of fresh human brains…yep, I’m me.

      • Shanzgood

        *hands you a paper bag*

        • mancityRed6

          is this the one with the spray paint?

          • Marion in Savannah

            No. It’s the one with the model glue.

          • mancityRed6

            oh, good. I was coming down.

          • Shanzgood

            Um…if you want?

          • mancityRed6

            you know what I want
            and Popeye’s is in walking distance.
            but that means pants

          • Shanzgood

            Even I feel they delivered, you would still have to consider pants.

            And I still can’t eat fried chicken even more than 2 years after my ex. It took me 20 to even try again after working at Church’s one summer.

          • mancityRed6

            you’ve obviously never ordered take out with me.

          • Shanzgood

            Well, no. I usually order with my kids and their friends so being fully dressed is mandatory.

          • mancityRed6

            well…yeah as as am I…but …dammit, I had something for this.

          • mancityRed6

            something something “I’ll give them the tip”

      • wait! what?

        Did you just give away the plot for “Mother”?

        Spoiler

        Yes, yes you did

        • mancityRed6

          wait, really? I was just doing my Thompson thing.
          huh

      • The Rain in Spain’s Therapist

        I am… The Walrus.

    • GreenGoldSharpie

      I kinda like how he was a giant dick to me, and then went about trying to ingratiate himself with the community before his dickery caught up with him.

      • alwayspunkindrublic

        So, do share…wha’ happened? After some early unpleasantness, I just chose to ignore him.

        • GreenGoldSharpie

          He basically said that I hate Bernie for noting I’m against universal healthcare unless trans medical benefits are guaranteed.

          It really stuck in his craw.

          • alwayspunkindrublic

            He seemed vaguely rational if the subject wasn’t Bernie or anyone challenged his obviously massively superior intellect.

          • GreenGoldSharpie

            So, never? Hehe.

          • Master Contrail Program
          • Resistance Fighter Astraea

            He was pretty infuriating on any civil rights issues.

          • Zippy W Pinhead

            I think that was about tbe point where I blew up at him, then decided to block bim rather than continue littering the thread with him.

        • Hamilton Ω, AKA Formerly DN

          I, for one, find that some ignoring some idiots starts to become similar to sitting inside a 55-gallon drum with some moron banging on said drum with two ball peen hammers. And inside that drum there is a sweet button called BLOCK, that becomes very difficult to disregard at some point.

          My heart goes out to those who have far better intestinal fortitude than I.

        • Poorly Behaved Pérsistanista

          What went over the line for me was when he started saying nasty things to specific workers, like Shanz and Shivask., etc. That will not stand.

      • Marion in Savannah

        Was there anybody here he DIDN’T piss off? I finally blocked him after all his bowling ball shit about Irma.

        • The Wanderer

          He didn’t piss me off. He became boring.

          • Marion in Savannah

            Being bored pisses me off!

          • alwayspunkindrublic

            I have a theory that his is autistic. His reactions and behaviors seemed very close to a friend of mine with autism…no awareness of social cues, a thirst for argument that involves repeating one thing over and over.

          • Marion in Savannah

            Could be — lord knows he did fixate on things.

          • bookish

            My aspie friend does that. It’s maddening, but I love her to death.

          • alwayspunkindrublic

            Yeah, same here. My friend is at heart a decent guy, but he’s a tough nut to deal with, esp. if you aren’t aware of his issues.

          • David Chaillou

            If that’s the case i’m sorry I was rude to him.

          • mancityRed6

            well then, take this gun. no don’t touch it. it’s kinda hot. we’re gonna play a prank on a convenience store clerk I know.
            don’t ask questions, just get in the car.

        • Spotts1701, Nothingburger Chef

          I gave up when he started in on teacher’s unions. Especially when he stated his experience was working non-union teaching jobs.

          • mancityRed6

            yeah, I argued with them about that.
            teacher’s rock.

          • GreenGoldSharpie

            I missed that. I would have torn him apart. :-D

          • Spotts1701, Nothingburger Chef

            It really was a lot of the right-wing bull about how unions only exist to protect bad teachers, plus a repeated linking to an article about U.S. test scores declining while trying to bootstrap that into an argument that the sole cause of that is poor teachers.

          • GreenGoldSharpie

            Haha, wow, yeah, woulda been fun.

            I think the guy was a Paulbot turned Berner, honestly.

          • pstokk

            Agreed.

          • mancityRed6

            I argued their ass to a draw. I was being “nice”

          • Zippy W Pinhead

            It was typically dumb and inane

          • Dept. of Space Tacos

            ah, he told me he knew more about criminal law than me because had 20 years in criminal justice with a “psych” and a “cert.”

          • Doug Langley

            Oh, that’s right. Yeah, I’m afraid I got a bit tetchy at that one.

        • CO

          Wait what is this bowling ball thing? I must have missed it.

          • Marion in Savannah

            Oh, lordy… He was omniscient and had predicted EXACTLY where Irma was headed 4 days previously because hurricanes act just like bowling balls.

          • CO

            Lol a weather expert and a legal one.

          • Hamilton Ω, AKA Formerly DN

            That’s bullshit. A bowling ball has inertia. A hurricane (keeping it simple) does not have inertia. It’s like saying a whirlpool has inertia. Similar statements can be made about a hurricane’s angular momentum. That’s how a hurricane can change directions relatively suddenly.

            Also, a bowling ball is rigid. A hurricane is anything but.

            Physics rocks!

          • Marion in Savannah

            Folks would reply in that vein to him, and he’d repeat the bowling ball argument, because physics. It became most irritating.

          • r m reddicks

            Do bowling balls act the same south of the equator?

          • Hamilton Ω, AKA Formerly DN

            The answer to that question can become quite complex when taking into consideration various reference frames & etc.

            But generally, in situations that we are most accustomed to, not really. In other words if you are an avid/pro bowler, you don’t need to change your technique depending on what hemisphere you are in.

            I’m getting too pedantic. I might have to start drinking again.

          • r m reddicks

            I was kind of thinking candle pin bowling. But, I guess that wouldn’t make a difference.

          • Rags

            He predicted east. It went west. He also ragged on all meterologists and all computer models because reasons.

          • natoslug

            Yes, but which type of bowling ball? Was it one for picking up spares? A dirty alley ball? Some sort of fancy core bowling ball? What was the finish like? Hmmmm, the more I think about it, the less likely it is that a hurricane is like a bowling ball. It is far more likely to be like a duck.

        • Vincent Ricola

          It was the repeated posting of that CNN link in one of the Hillary book threads. Over and over and over. I wasn’t ready to call “troll” out loud, but I was sure ready to think it.

    • Master Contrail Program

      The Big Mad Wolf he learned the rule!

      You gotta play hot to be real cool! https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/1d84c300b799d34c70dd81bdd4bc21ecc19f95ef2481c709cbd688c0f5676e78.gif

    • Hamilton Ω, AKA Formerly DN

      Gawd, I hope so.

      Seeing a whole screen of mostly “This user is blocked”, over and over again ad fucking nauseum gets rather tedious after a while. Especially with disqus barfing all over the landscape.

      • HellhathnofuryDemme

        That’s the only reason I didn’t block.

    • The Rain in Spain’s Therapist

      Ha! I blocked that clown at the beginning of the week. His “GOP-lite Democrats” crap set off the troll alarms.

      • dlemex

        Yeah, it always felt like he was trying to establish a good non-comment before he would start serious trolling. I finally got tired of it too and blocked him.

    • doktorzoom

      I feel a little bad talking about him in this “not quite one of us” way (again), but FWIW I haven’t banned him.

      • alwayspunkindrublic

        Maybe this whole thread should get deleted? I wouldn’t have chimed in otherwise.

      • Marion in Savannah

        Maybe he gave up because so many people had blocked him, or were simply ignoring him. It was suggested below that maybe he’s on the autism spectrum, and that does sound right.

        • alwayspunkindrublic

          One of the reasons I just chose to ignore him is that, if my guess was correct, I was worried about interactions with him devolving into what would almost be approaching cruelty, given the exasperation level.

          • Resistance Fighter Astraea

            I don’t see it. He didn’t show any signs of trouble with conversing with people until he was called out as wrong or until the issue involved “special interests” like sexism or racism. Even so, it doesn’t excuse many of his troubling interactions. I don’t know why someone who repeatedly spammed a thread with threats of lawsuits against regulars isn’t banned but obviously it isn’t my call.

          • alwayspunkindrublic

            Obviously, it was just a guess on my part, because his interactions very closely resemble that of a friend of mine who is one of the most intractable people I’ve ever known. I can’t always tell if his behavior is because of his autism or just because he’s being a dick. I’m not sure he knows either, but he’s virtually incapable of having actual friendships because of it. I vacillate between feeling bad for him and wanting to throttle him.

      • mancityRed6

        they were normal (?) at the first, just argumentative. which I like. so….yeah.

      • Bub, the cynical zombie

        It’s your call, of course. I am not in the habit of calling for people to be banned, but he should be, IMO.

      • Ω cynmac’s reclaiming her time

        Dok – For those of us who tried, really tried with him, we don’t feel bad for blocking him. Last night I went through the “three strikes? you’re out” process with him and he failed miserably. As a matter of fact, reaching out merely made me a target of the trolling today. So I think all of us talking about the reasons why we blocked him is necessary as a community.
        I don’t think it is a purity test situation for us, but it certainly was for Wolf Tracker. For him to see adults discuss the issues, because we know he is watching, is not an issue for me either.

    • Ms.MLG on Maui

      Goddamn, but that one hates women.

  • Scooby

    These land wars in Asia always end well.

    • wait! what?

      Ghengis Kahn was the only one who pulled it off.

      • Daniel

        Well, and Timur.

    • SayItWithWookies

      Iran will be different.

      • Three Finger Salute

        Nuclear war with Iran? It’s not so far away.

        • Elvis Causticfellow

          It’s just a shot away
          It’s just a shot away

          • Three Finger Salute

            Couldn’t get away…

      • wait! what?
        • Dept. of Space Tacos

          is that fucking key and peele in the front row?

          Yeah, it’s totally key and peele.

      • Mehmeisterjr

        And Afghanistan. Jared Kushner can settle their hash with both hands tied behind his back during the perp walk.

        • Jonny On Maui

          Afghani hash? I’m in!

        • Three Finger Salute

          Kush and hash? That’s not Afghanistan, that’s Canadastan…

          • marxalot

            Call me Webster’s Dictionary, ’cause I’m Morocco bound!

  • Anna Rompage

    SE Asia? That’s nothing!

    You should have been here man! I had my own personal Vietnam, dodging STDs like nobody’s business. It was way worse than being shot at by Charlie in the bush with an AK47.

    I barely got out alive I tell you!

    The nights spent waiting for those tests to come back.

    Is this the big one? Is this gonna get me.

    If it weren’t for my bone spurs, I’d much rather been in the jungle killing the enemy!

    • Mehmeisterjr

      The PPRIT (Post Plato’s Retreat Impotence Disorder) is the bigly worst part. The. Worst. Part. Bigly. I wake up in the middle of the night with a raging, raging, tiny but raging, boner. I suffer from flashbacks of William Levitt pointing at my hands and laughing. Sometimes ya gotta wonder if you’ll ever find another daughter with a terrific set of funbags, am I right? Am I right? Terrific. Fun. Bags.

      It’s better when you can discuss it with a fellow incest fan. On Twitter.

      You know I’m right. Everybody says so. Make America Great Again. Crooked Hillary. Failing New York Times. Build the wall.

      • Marion in Savannah

        Tiny Raging Boner might make for a great heavy metal band name.

        • Mehmeisterjr

          Or a boy band. It could go either way.

          • Marion in Savannah

            Oh, a boy band for sure!

    • proudgrampa

      “Thank you for sharing your personal Vietnam story.”

    • shivaskeeper

      He’s almost as good as the pants shitting draft dodger crowing about how much of a terror he would have been if went to Vietnam.

      If only the pants shitting hadn’t gotten in the way.

    • MilwaukeeKent

      “I wanted to serve, I really did, but I had a Pilonidal Cyst. I went to all the recruitment offices, there must be something I can do to serve the war effort, but no. After talking to all these recruiters and they all said the same thing — They couldn’t use me for desk duty, they couldn’t use me for active duty — and they didn’t think other servicemen would want to be around a Pilonidal Cyst.There’s only so much you can do when you carry a doughnut pillow.”

      Russian Limbaugh, a Vietnam Story

      • Dept. of Space Tacos

        y ‘all know what that kind of cyst is? It’s an ass cyst. (and can be treated).

        • MilwaukeeKent

          Well he had a back-up plan, a student deferment for his major in Ballroom Dance at a small college in Missouri, but wouldn’t you know a “FemiNazi” got in his way…

          “If I were Scott Walker, you know what I would say about college?” Limbaugh asked, before embarking on a tangent about his own decision to withdraw from college after “refusing to take ballroom dance taught by a lesbian drill sergeant.”

          • LucindathePook

            I would think Ballroom Dance would be an elective, not a requirement.

          • Dept. of Space Tacos

            in middle school, during the winter we were required to spend several weeks dancing (forget that the “winter” in the desert is something New Englanders would call a nice day).

            Anyway, we were taught (and forced to participate in) square dancing and line dancing.

            It was fucking awful.

          • LucindathePook

            Naw, I meant in college, where I actually took Folk and Square in order to get out of more strenuous athletic requirements. But in junior high and upper elementary I did take ballroom, and frankly enjoyed it, and it’s served me well to this day. And I mean with white gloves and all.

          • Dept. of Space Tacos

            lol. Around here, one occasionally gets invited to part of a quincera “court” at a certain age.

            It’s where i learned how to waltz.

          • MilwaukeeKent
        • Hamilton Ω, AKA Formerly DN

          I was married to someone who had such a cyst. It can be dealt with surgically. However, the post-op care requires a dedicated person to tend to the surgery site because the person who had the surgery can’t easily reach or see the site to provide the post-op care, which is sort of, well, intimate, after a fashion.

          I would not be surprised if Limpballs was not able to find anyone who would have to look at his ass three or four times a day.

      • shivaskeeper

        So get the cyst removed, heal up, and try again.

        It’s not hard for anyone else but these chicken hawk mother fuckers.

        • bobbert

          What I did.

    • weejee

      They missed the opportunity to become able to distinguish an SKS carbine round from one fired by a Kalashnikov by the buzz as the bee passes by. It is such an wondrous bit to have in your skill set.

      • georgiaburning

        Job skillz

  • nightmoth

    Thanks for telling us about the “share your story” site. They aren’t MY stories, but I’m in the female age group that had a dating pool of Viet Nam vets, several of whom told me THEIR stories once they were drunk enough. I’ll see if the site accepts them, because a lot of those guys still aren’t talking.

    • doktorzoom

      Considering that the documentary isn’t vets-only, my guess is that neither is the “share” feature.

    • shivaskeeper

      Ask them first if you can.

    • Hamilton Ω, AKA Formerly DN

      I would think that the experiences of family members and friends who were at home would be very relevant and should be shared and preserved.

      • Dept. of Space Tacos

        to my knowledge, there is a saying among the families (aka dependents). We serve too.

        Being away from our loved ones for training or deployment, fearing for their safety, and often times caring for the vets when they return – or grieving when they don’t.

        Luckily I never went through any of that, but hundreds of thousands of military families have over the years.

    • georgiaburning

      My dad did two short deployments over there. My mom was a nervous wreck during those times. I was 14 years old just hoping it would end before I turned draft age and would need to make a decision

  • bookish

    Even more of a horse’s ass than usual.

    http://www.startribune.com/trump-hypes-mock-video-of-golf-ball-seen-striking-clinton/445087903/

    The tweet says: “Donald Trump’s amazing golf swing #CrookedHillary.”

    A Clinton spokesman declined comment. The White House issued no immediate comment, and Trump aides have said in the past that his tweets “speak for themselves.” The assessment from Rep. Adam Schiff, D-Calif.: “juvenile.”

    • HellhathnofuryDemme

      *eyeroll*

    • Marceline

      It’s interesting to see how now so many people look at these tweets with fatigue and boredom. Obviously plenty still get outraged but a lot of people have just seen this for what it is: infantile fuckery from a senile old man.

      • AJ Milne

        I’m kinda divided on that…

        On the one hand, I figure fatigue is dangerous, when you’re dealing with a demagogue. And then there’s fucking _justice_. Just because he’s been doing the same, predictable stupid shit we always figured he would doesn’t mean the fucker shouldn’t _pay_ for each and every individual thing. Asshole’s such a travesty, it’s like he pays a tenth the price he should, always has, this especially striking me during the election. It’s like he was such a tangled hairball hairball of awful, people couldn’t decide _which_ idiocy to rip him for.

        … and then again, his being completely fucking ignored, if it finally gets to that, would probably be a) just about the best thing for him and everyone else, and b) probably the harshest justice the universe can serve someone that hopelessly desperate for attention…

        Balancing this as best as I can, I guess: I’ll be extremely happy and ready to ignore him entirely once I’m sure he’s nowhere near the nuclear football, anyway.

      • Three Finger Salute

        Speaking of senile or just unhinged presidential Twitragers, I want to know what the fuck happened to Obama’s brother to make him such a “shitlord”. What is he, a breech-birthed preemie who got caught in the birth canal and then dropped on his head or something?

        This whole “annoying presidential siblings” (and almost always brothers) seems to be an exclusively American thing, with the obvious exception of JFK and his brothers. You never hear about this in other countries; I think Macron is an only child and I don’t even know if Merkel has siblings either. If they do, they seem to stay out of the spotlight and just let bro or sis do their thing. Or they don’t, but they’re upstanding people nevertheless. Sacha Trudeau is a pretty smart guy who’s clearly forward-thinking and benevolent as his older brother, and then there’s the sad fate of poor Misha, who would undoubtedly be on par with his two brothers personality-wise today just like he was as a young man, whatever line of work he went into.

        But nobody else seems to have a Billy Carter, a Roger Clinton (or Hugh Rodham), a Neil Bush (when you’re worse than Shrub and Yeb, you’re bad) or a Malik Obama. I wonder why that is.

  • mancityRed6

    KC is over Philly 27-13, and you can hear the crowd.

    • proudgrampa

      Pipe down! I’m trying to take a nap…

  • Jamoche
    • SayItWithWookies

      Biggest rally in history!

      • Mehmeisterjr

        Bigger than Trump’s Inauguration.

        • dlemex

          Of course that wasn’t hard to do.

      • NellCote71

        Period.

    • Hamilton Ω, AKA Formerly DN

      Mouse Of All Rallies

    • BadKitty904

      People came from yards around…

    • Doug Langley

      The idol of dozens.

  • Lyly Sirivong

    Is this a special day today ? Look what’s currently on french TV :
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6d207c30d626053c9c9f9be2f5a76a8f945f0a7ef6e60627960d2fb2e0b48fda.jpg

    • mancityRed6

      I love that movie.
      a young harrison ford trumps (ha!) everyone else.

      • Lyly Sirivong

        Oh yeah, young Harrison Ford was incredibly handsome.

        • mancityRed6

          he looks fresh out of high school. I mean, I know that’s how his character is supposed to look, but still.

          • Dept. of Space Tacos

            IIRC, Ford was in his late 30 or 40’s when he was “discovered”.

          • Three Finger Salute

            …remodeling George Lucas’ kitchen cabinets.

          • Dept. of Space Tacos

            i thought it was a door or doorframe, but either way, yeah – doing carpentry work.

    • Nounverb911

      It’s the Constitution’s 230th birthday.
      https://twitter.com/benjaminwittes/status/909381720788566022

  • mancityRed6

    5 seconds left. the eagles do an offside kick and the timeouts are rolling

  • This whole thread is pretty great, actually:

    https://twitter.com/TheRealDratch/status/909428018808049665

    • mancityRed6

      hold me close now, Tony Danza,
      we’ll count the headlice on the highway

      • She got electric boobs, her mom has, too! You know I read it in a magaziiiiine!

      • Three Finger Salute

        Katherine Helmond’s on the highway

      • Beautiful Soup

        I thought it was “Red Sea” instead of “Grey Seal.” Sigh, it’s not as funny as the other ones.

      • TootsStansbury

        Oh ma cameo molesting
        Kee pa a poorer for tea
        Solar prestige a gammon
        Lantern or turbert paw kwee

        Solar prestige a gammon
        cool kar kyrie kay salmon
        Hair ring molassis abounding
        Common lap kitch sardin a poor floundin

        Cod ee say oo pay a loto
        My zeta prestige toupay a floored – oh, wait that was really the song.

      • Courser_Resistance

        Theerre’s a bathroom on the right!

        I learned it that way as a kid and I’ll probably die singin’ it that way.

        • Three Finger Salute

          It’s Morgan Freeman!
          When I hear that old song play,
          it’s Morgan Freeman!

    • weejee

      Rachel is so funny. My bride and I were lucky to see here at Second City before her SNL run. Almost wet our pants.

    • Notreelyhelping

      Listen: every picture tells a story, donut.

  • Three Finger Salute

    OT: …and this is why we can’t have nice things

    A march for black women taking place on a Jewish high holiday has sparked massive infighting among a major feminist organization

    If it’s not race and religion, it’s sportsball teams or which Twilight character you’d go with. Humans will always find something to split each other apart on tribal lines.

  • Juan de Fuca

    Slightly O/T, but in rebuttal to the one of the most memorable lines from one of the greatest movies in cinematic history, Charlie really does surf:

    Spectacular surfing footage highlights Dana Brown’s “Step Into Liquid,” a superb docu from the son of surf-docu pioneer Bruce Brown. Reaching well beyond even the niche audience for legitimate surf docus, pic could be the first of its kind to achieve wide mainstream exposure since Brown senior’s “The Endless Summer 2” in 1994.

    But the most extraordinary sights captured by “Step Into Liquid” often occur closer to shore. Pro-surfing brothers Dan, Chris and Keith Malloy teach impromptu lessons at an Irish surf school, as Catholic and Protestant youths frolic together joyfully in the frigid whitewater; Brown follows Vietnam vet Jim Knost as he returns to ‘Nam (accompanied by son Alex) for the first time since the war, meeting up with the Da Nang Surfing Club.

    The whole movie is great but the scene where Jim Knost takes his son to Vietnam to surf with the Da Nang Surfing Club is priceless.

    http://variety.com/2003/film/awards/step-into-liquid-2-1200543369/

    • alwayspunkindrublic

      Agree.

      • Juan de Fuca

        It’s probably shameless name dropping but if you’ve seen the movie and remember the scene about pro surfer Taj Burrow and his parents in Western Oz, I used to surf with his parents during the weekend while living in Oz. Mrs. de Fuca used to watch their dog (who was also in the movie) while we all went out surfing. Taj’s parents are actually from California but moved to Australia in the late 70’s or early 80’s. They are very good people.

        • mancityRed6

          nothing shameless about it. let it drop

          • Juan de Fuca

            It’s funny how small the World really is sometimes. It’s weird. Give ya another example, I retired from the Airforce about 5 years ago and decided to move to Temecula, CA. A place that’s almost as far away from Jersey as one could get, right?

            Four months later, I get a text from one of my aunts in New Jersey that say’s “One of your cousins lives in Temecula. I don’t think you’ve ever met her because she’s a lot younger than you but she’s there with her husband who just got out of the Marines at Camp Pendleton.”

            We had them over for dinner a few weeks later.

        • Dept. of Space Tacos

          no, that’s pretty cool actually.

        • mancityRed6

          name drop? ok, my first ex father in law and mother in law met Tom Baker in London. when he (Tom) found out where the FIL was from, he said “oh, Mesopotamia”

          • Doug Langley

            Well, when I was in Hollywood, I was introduced to Sylvester Stallone’s agent!!

            Wait, where’s everyone going?

          • Doug Langley

            Okay, I met people I thought were stars but don’t register on the average joe.

            Douglas Trumbull: I interviewed for a job. He was hiring for Brainstorm. I blew the interview by being a total dick.
            Stuart Robertson: fx supervisor on Last Action Hero. An ILM vet. Knows his stuff AND is a nice person. Later won an Oscar for What Dreams May Come.
            Hoyt Yeatman: worked for him at DreamQuest. He was Oscar winner for The Abyss. Not only smart, but you never saw anyone who loved fx so much.

          • CripesAmighty

            Trumbull. Wow. The best. Ever. 2001 remains, to my eyes, still the most visually stunning (and convincing) fx picture ever made–nearly 50 years on.

        • alwayspunkindrublic

          I do remember that scene. That’s pretty cool! Did you ever see “Breaking Down The Door”, about he Aussies coming to Hawaii to surf and pretty much stinking it up with the native Hawaiians in the process? Eddie Aikau basically saved their lives by intervening. That’s a great movie.

          • Juan de Fuca

            Nope and dude – I think you know more about surfing history than I do, lol. But that’s awesome. I do know a lot about Eddie but never read the book about the Aussie surfers in Hawaii. I do remember them (local surfers on Oahu) having a thing for asshole tourists from California coming over and trying to take over their waves and it never ends good for mainland tourists when they do that. In fact, it often ends horribly and paints the whole region of the north and west sides of the island as “hating haoles”, etc.

            It’s not like that at all and my wife is from the “wild” west side of Oahu. It’s simply about showing respect. Eddie remains a legend in Hawaii and for good reason.

          • alwayspunkindrublic

            Yeah, it’s a great story. The Aussies were completely unaware of the legacy and tradition of surfing for the native Hawaiians, and how badly their culture had been fucked over by the missionaries etc. The local surf mafia guys were planning a serious beatdown as a teaching opportunity, but Eddie intervened, sat the haoles down, and gave them a history lesson, saying, basically, “pay attention or die”. They got the message and started showing respect.

            I’ve always been fascinated by the surf world…that said, I can barely swim.

          • Juan de Fuca

            Yup. I think back in the older days they were called the “Black Shorts” or something. Now they are called “Da Hui”.

            Show respect and don’t fuck around with Da Hui. It’s not even worth it. But even they are cool if ya show respect because the ocean is dangerous enough without a bunch of people dropping in on other people with surfboards. They do a good job at keeping assholes in check, so good on ’em for that.

    • AJ Milne

      I worked for a while with a coupla Irish cold water surfer types. They were kinda marooned in this nasty desert climate at the time, missing their cold, windy ocean, but assured me they would, again, be on their boards and in their crazy cold water gear (think it was drysuits?) as soon as they got back to their hemisphere.

      … me, I was generally impressed there is such a thing at all. And y’know, beyond that, at a sorta meta level, it’s just so _nice_ when you discover a New and Unexpected Thing about the world, and it doesn’t fit into the category of ‘didn’t want to know that, actually’.

      • Juan de Fuca

        Yup. And those folks are surfing some massive waves on top of it being close to freezing. They deserve much respect. Not only do they have to deal with the normal fear associated with paddling out into 10-20 ft waves, they do it when the water temp is around 40F, so they’re dealing with the danger of surfing 20ft waves in water that is almost freezing cold.

        I’ve got much respect for ’em but they can keep they can keep that all to themselves.

        My nephew in NJ does something similar, paddles out into barrels during the winter at some secret spots in Jersey (they do exist) when the water is way too cold for most of us. I can’t do it but have much respect for those who do.

  • Nounverb911
    • BadKitty904
      • I feel i would be less terrified if Hannibal was president. And the speeches would be much better to listen to

        • Jonny On Maui

          The food too…

        • mancityRed6

          never mind his speeches, the recipes

          • Hey, he was a good chef. It was his ingredient choices that are challenging

          • Bub, the cynical zombie

            I’d love to try his thinly sliced human frontal lobe dredged in brioche crumbs and sautéed in butter with caper berries, myself. Sounds yummy!

          • BadKitty904

            I’m not so sure about the caper-berries…

          • Bub, the cynical zombie

            Cats are so damn finicky. Where’s your sense of culinary adventure?

          • BadKitty904

            Capers, I love. I never heard of a “caper berry” until a few years ago and I still don’t know what they are.

        • weejee

          Food for thought. Someone bringing the Chianti?

        • Marion in Savannah

          Don’t know as I’d necessarily want to go to dinner at the White House, though.

          • Bub, the cynical zombie

            I’m in!

          • Jonny On Maui

            The White House or the dinner?

          • If zombies are in the White House, they are starving to death

          • Bub, the cynical zombie

            Not if President Lecter is cookin’!

          • Bub, the cynical zombie

            Dinner at the White House. I love sweetbreads. Liver with fava beans is nice too.

          • Doug Langley

            Organ meats are packed with vitamins and enzymes!

          • Doug Langley

            Well, it’s gotta be better than burnt steak and ketchup.

        • Ms.MLG on Maui

          He loves Hillary’s suit.

        • mancityRed6

          he’s at least smart, he was a doctor and all.

          • Swampgas_Man

            Didn’t do anything for Ben Carson.

        • Mehmeisterjr

          And impeccably pronounced.

          • Three Finger Salute

            Kee-ANN-tee

        • Notreelyhelping

          State dinners would be weird.

          • BadKitty904

            “weirder”

          • Doug Langley

            You mean no chocolate cake?

          • Lord Jim

            Try the blood pudding. And the head cheese.

        • Canis Greyhame

          Whatever you do, try not to be rude.

      • Ms.MLG on Maui

        You’re so close to the way you’re going to catch him. Do you know that, Mr. Mueller?

        • BadKitty904

          I hope to God you’re right…

  • Nounverb911
    • mancityRed6

      fucking goddamn. I really want to punch with votes anyone who says he was a bad prez.

      • Courser_Resistance

        Agreed. I’ll probably go to my deathbed adoring that man.

    • Bub, the cynical zombie

      I get this strange feeling in the pit of my stomach watching that.
      God damn Donald Trump, and all his deplorable supporters.

      • Resistance Fighter Astraea

        Seriously fuck them all.

        • mancityRed6

          not with my…oh…wait

    • weejee

      For some of us squees are second nature.

    • Three Finger Salute

      What’s the picture? I’m guessing it’s Obama or Carter (some good Democratic president) but I can’t see the twitter thing because I block twitter for reasons. Can you download it and paste it into a comment?

      • It’ a CNN mash up of Obama laughing at his own dad jokes

      • Jamoche
        • Courser_Resistance

          That man could really lighten a room or occasion. He was our brilliant, goofball president. Who loved us ALL so very much. Sob

        • Three Finger Salute

          Aww :)

          Malia is just like “come on, daddddd…..!”

          Those two girls are going to do some magnificent things. They were raised well by two terrific parents. I hope they continue to hold their heads high despite the flood of abuse leveled at them from trolls to this day.

          Look, there’s one on the comments page. “Vladimir” says it’s fake news. No, comrade, you’re a Vlad Joke.

    • Marion in Savannah

      Still. My. President.

    • TootsStansbury

      I love him and his beautiful family. Much of America doesn’t deserve him, they let him down. They never realized what a stellar example of an American man he is because they are blinded by hate.

  • Three Finger Salute

    Arguably one of the most haunting Vietnam movies I’ve ever seen. Sidney Schoenberg passed away earlier this year.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ru0HxV4nWY

    Troubling too, because 1) the doctor-turned-actor who played Dith Pran, Haing S. Ngor, actually survived the Khmer Rouge, only to be brutally murdered in California by members of a Cambodian street gang who allegedly had ties to Pol Pot himself; and 2) this is what it eventually looks like when a totalitarian government issues a brutal crackdown on “intellectuals,” “cosmopolitan elites,” and “educated thinkers.”

    America, take note.

    • mancityRed6

      I need to watch that.

      • Dept. of Space Tacos

        was JUST thinking the exact same thing, that cast, Sam Waterston, John Malkovich, Ngor (who obviously I had never heard of).

        • Notreelyhelping

          The scene in the men’s room absolutely kills.

        • Three Finger Salute

          I think that was Malkovich’s first film, or at least first major film role. He might have had small roles in other things, maybe even TV, but this was his breakout.

          • Notreelyhelping

            Around that time, he and Gary Sinese were awesome at Steppenwolf in Chicago. I’m glad they got the recognition beyond theatre.

        • mancityRed6

          I knew there was something dark about his casting
          http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0628955/bio?ref_=nm_ov_bio_sm

    • TundraGrifter

      “The Deer Hunter” was a very moving movie about Viet Nam. Not exactly about the war or why we were there, but it certainly is a Viet Nam movie. This is not to say there aren’t other great or worthwhile or interesting movies about that time in our nation’s history. A time that we haven’t fully worked through.

      • Dept. of Space Tacos

        i really tried to watch the deer hunter, but that 20 minutes of a wedding scene, it was like the godfather all over again.

        Now that I’m older and a little more patient and educated about the movie, I should try again.

        • mancityRed6

          good movies don’t involve dramatic music or action, it is a damn good movie.

          • Three Finger Salute

            As for Killing Fields, it has a great score by Mike Oldfield, he of “Tubular Bells” fame. As surreal and disorienting as the film itself.

      • mancityRed6

        I had that on the VHS. it was two tapes.
        yeah, that was dark as fuck.

    • CripesAmighty

      Shit. America didn’t take note when it was done by the Hitler or Stalin. What could possibly give one the impression it’ll start now? Oldest authoritarian shtick in the book. Ignorance is strength. Stupidity is a virtue.

      • Three Finger Salute

        It’s only bad when the other guy does it.

    • doktorzoom

      A perfect double bill: This and Swimming to Cambodia.

  • CindyinEncinitas
    • NellCote71

      Love it!

    • Meow! Btw, we called Quayluedia back when, likely not a thing these days because #otherdrugs and #TheTubes aren’t a band anymore.

      • Juan de Fuca

        I’ve been looking at homes in Leucadia but “Quayluedia” is bookmarked for future reference at work. Love it and thanks!

        • A lovely place to live….Leucadia that is.

          • Juan de Fuca

            Yeah, it would be. Mrs. de Fuca and I were talking (again) last night about it and have pretty much decided that after we’ve finished paying for Miss de Fuca’s school/college, we’re selling the house and buying a condo at Makaha beach on Oahu. I’ll retire early from my CalPERS job, pull in my meager military retirement and get back to surfing.

            Simple, small condo where I can walk to the greatest longboarding spot that most people have never heard of.

          • See you there!

      • CindyinEncinitas

        I saw them. I loved them.
        https://youtu.be/FFltXDMQsQQ

    • armed_bears
  • Notreelyhelping

    Note: “Meditations in Green” by Stephen Wright (not Steven Wright) is a fine novel about post-Vietnam War America. And….

    Larry Engelman’s “Tears Before the Rain” is also a fine oral history of the fall of Saigon. (Sorry about any spoilers.)

    • doktorzoom

      Also well worth seeing is American Experience’s Last Days In Vietnam, which infuriates me for how badly America treated its S. Vietnamese allies at the end, no matte how much I think the war itself was a goddamned waste.

  • Jamoche

    Chyron: “Trump courts Democrats, frustrating GOP”

    FTFY: “Trump courts adulation, frustrating everyone”

  • TundraGrifter

    My cousin was an army medic who had horrible experiences during and after the Tet Offensive. He never really was able to come to terms with what he saw and had to deal with. It haunted him his whole life. The VA does, I think in many and I sincerely hope most cases, a good job dealing with physical injuries. They just aren’t set up to help former members of the military wounded where it doesn’t show.

    I think my cousin’s name should be carved on the Memorial Wall. He didn’t die there, but he was clearly a casualty of the War in Viet Nam.

    • Dept. of Space Tacos

      you’re comment made me think of the (fictional) movie Article 99, which I believe features some vietnam vet characters.

      Both my parents were disabled vets and I grew up getting military healthcare. I’ve seen them both suffer under the VA system. (dad is gone now) It’s supposed to be getting better, but it’s very frustrating and crazy at times.

      Anyway, TX mom has several copies of Article 99 and has given them away in the past on the premise it’s an important movie to watch.

      • Notreelyhelping

        Condolences. My dad was 100%, but back then they called it shell shock or combat fatigue. He wasn’t in direct combat (as far I know), but he spent some evenings in air raid shelters during the Blitz.

        • Dept. of Space Tacos

          dad wasn’t a combat vet either (technically any former member is called a veteran).

          But glad to hear your dad came back well. Some did, a lot didn’t.

          • Notreelyhelping

            Thanks. He had problems for the rest of his life psychologically, but he hung in there (died in ’94). Newsman until the 60s, when things caught up with him. Like many vets, he had a handful of funny stories, and the rest stayed locked away.

            For a project I worked on, I interviewed a bunch of Vietnam vets and reporters who covered the war. It was hard to get them talking, but, once they started, you were in for a long night. And a substantial bar bill.

    • Three Finger Salute

      Agreed. Mental health is way too often dismissed or swept under the rug in general (unless it’s as a scapegoat to avoid talking about guns), but especially with vets — and not just the soldiers, as you pointed out, but those in non-combat roles. Even the animals suffer trauma that they can’t express in words.

      A Canadian doctor is the one who penned the famous poem “In Flanders Fields” during WW1. The unexpected new form of chemical warfare and the horrific effects it had had on the young men he was unable to save, it haunted him for the rest of his life.

      • wait! what?

        Oddly enough, one of the best representations of this was in “Flatliners.” Julia Robert’s dad’s story was done very well.

      • TundraGrifter

        After WW I it was called “Shell Shock.” WW II – “Combat Fatigue.” God knows what they called it after the horrors of the American Civil War. Many of those who fought had to suffer the after effects. There is a theory that’s one reason the Wild West was so violent.

        There are far too many veterans homeless today. Many of them don’t qualify for VA or other benefits because they got less than honorable discharges – often for alcohol or other drug use, which I suggest in many cases was self-medication for PDST and other issues triggered by their service to our country. It’s a national disgrace we don’t take better care of them.

        • Three Finger Salute

          Chew ’em up and spit ’em out. And deport them, in some cases. Or ban them outright and bully them to the point of suicide for not being “God’s gifted gender,” in other cases. Now we’ve got an Air Farce leader who wants to persecute Jews. How nice.

    • OrG

      Even a lot of smart, caring people view mental illness as weakness.

      • proudgrampa

        This, unfortunately, is very true.

      • Three Finger Salute

        Either weakness, or a demonic possession of sorts that makes you a ticking time bomb ready to go all Columbine at a moment’s notice. The extreme opposite are these people who have a misguided approach to “reducing the stigma” by glorifying it and trying to paint it as an X-Men superpower or “creative gift.” Neither of which are true. Mental illness is a debilitating set of conditions that’s deserving of pity rather than hostility. Most mentally ill people aren’t serial killers, but neither are they great artists. They’re just regular people who suffer, and suffer greatly. Even the “famous” ones suffer, and in many cases it actually gets in the way of their art rather than “enhancing it.” I’m sure even Van Gogh would have traded his creative abilities to have the voices shut up and get his ear back…

        • Christopher Story

          Thank you

    • Werewolf

      My dad was a psychiatrist, and spent a lot of his career at the VA, trying to help guys like your cousin.

  • BadKitty904

    OT: My fellow Floridians have their own, unique way of dealing with disaster…

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c8e605d4c5bdede458a2bbd2aff7c7d5bc62e78505a6343e87b98517d3c0d6b0.jpg

    • Martini Ambassador 🍸

      There’s this very Florida story too:
      https://twitter.com/gabrielmalor/status/909167166972469254

      • BadKitty904

        I’d think warnings about bears and monsters would be pretty usual in Manatee County. And “gibberish” is certainly SOP for any county official I’ve ever heard…

      • Finnibar87

        It’s the Left Shark Syndrome.

      • Werewolf

        My Deaf and terp (interpreter) friends are really pissed off about that. It’s not the guy’s fault-he’s just some guy with a Deaf brother who knows *some* ASL, but the county should have gotten a real interpreter.

        • Shanzgood

          From what I read, he didn’t want to do it in the first place but kind of got railroaded into it.

          • Werewolf

            Yep.

    • Ωbjectifier

      I don’t think that is the correct PPE.

    • Finnibar87

      They dress for it, I see.

    • JustDon’tSayDignity

      Safety first, I see.

    • Bitter Scribe

      Why would someone with the proportionate strength of a spider need a chainsaw?

      And what the hell does “the proportionate strength of a spider” even mean?

    • SpideySenser

      Stamp of Approval!

      • BadKitty904

        Ha!

  • House0fTheBlueLights

    Damn, wish I could see it tonight. But those of us doing the online thing have to wait 3 days for some idiotic reason.

  • House0fTheBlueLights

    In the late ’70s there was a line of women’s tights, in multiple bright colors, called Hue. They first time I saw them, child of the Vietnam Era that I am, I thought wtf why would anyone name women’s stockings after Hue?

    • Martini Ambassador 🍸

      Hue is still around. They make a pretty decent tight, TBH. But their big-seller these days seems to be…

      Leggings! Gaa, poor incels!

      • Shanzgood

        But they’re called “footless tights” ha!

        • Three Finger Salute

          Spanx? I love Spanx but they’re so fucking expensive. Who charges $100 for a fucking girdle?

          • Finnibar87

            Spanx!

          • Three Finger Salute

            Well, of course. Thing is, she could actually move more product to more people if she charged less money per unit or offered discounts, i.e. buy 2 or more and get one free or half off. The store-bought shapewear just doesn’t hold you in as good as Spanx do, and I don’t get why there ought to be such an elitist attitude about fucking underwear. Why should poors, even skinny poors who have cellulite/paunch/other flaws, but not ones that can’t be concealed with the right undergarments, have their rolls show, except to make 100-pound riches feel better about themselves?

          • Shanzgood

            I bought a kind of compression top 30lbs ago, but all it did was roll up at the bottom and aggravate the blobs I was trying to disguise at the time. Of course, it fits much better now that it doesn’t have a job to do and I just wear it as a tank top. Feh.

          • Three Finger Salute

            That’s why I like the Spanx, they really do fit well and don’t roll (at least for me). The cost of the Spanx and the lack of quality “feminine” or unisex tee shirts at retail stores that drape over your nether regions and rear end are two of my major wardrobe pet peeves. Certain “male” ones at Target fit perfectly on me, but the men’s department looks to have so much of a better variety that it’s really too bad it all looks so “guy-ish.” I get that Target is trying to encourage people to move away from that whole “pink is for girls, blue/grey/green is for guys” thing, but not all of us are comfortable with dressing that way (or don’t live in communities that are), and would rather have a gender-specific equivalent. I mean really, they couldn’t make this in a brighter color???

      • Courser_Resistance

        I’m in a really contrary mood and I’m going to pick up some compression tights later this week. I swear I’m going to cram those babies up between my ass cheeks and walk at the park just to piss ’em off.

      • Finnibar87

        Hue has it in for the poor l’il incel.

  • Swampgas_Man

    I was just gonna watch John Wick 2 tonight the only bang-bang movie I can stand, for some reason; the others all seem to drag in wingnut politics

    • wait! what?

      Have you ever seen “The Yakuza” or “Dogs of War”? Both are good examples of pristine violence.

  • wait! what?

    I hope this comes to Hulu. I canceled cable tv and primarily watch shows on the bus rides to/from work.

    • stumpknocker

      try KODI, better than cable, and free.

      • wait! what?

        Ooh, on it.
        Thanxs.

        • stumpknocker

          plenty of youtube videos showing how to set it up.

    • MilwaukeeKent

      No PBS? Or did you ditch the TV?

      • wait! what?

        Donated it. It’s a yooge 55″ Samsung that will never die.

  • Bitter Scribe

    To me the most sour legacy of Vietnam is/was those damn black “POW/MIA You Are Not Forgotten” flags. Thank God they seem to be disappearing, but they were all over the place not long ago. They were the emblem of people who watched the second Rambo movie too many times and were convinced that Vietnam was secretly holding on to American prisoners for…God knows what reason.

    They were idiots, but you couldn’t really argue with them because almost to a person, they had lost loved ones over there and were grieving in a twisted way. John McCain finally lost it with some of them and started yelling at them. He was one of the few who had the moral authority to do so, having been a POW himself.

    • Three Finger Salute

      And then, we ended up with “I only like heroes who don’t get captured” — fuck that guy and fuck his whole shitstain of a party, that has no qualms about sending people off to war so they can continue getting rich off extracting resources from foreign undesirables.

    • Dept. of Space Tacos

      there’s one of those outside the government office where I intern. I just noticed it on friday.

    • TundraGrifter

      Sadly, that myth was kept alive by scammers who collected money from people who needed to believe in something. I’m sorry I can’t remember the details now, but I did read an expose bringing sunlight to the schemes. Something about “BOHICA” – it was a long time ago.

    • doktorzoom

      Some states passed laws to require they be flown at all state offices.

      Yes, Idaho, I’m looking at you, dildos.

  • Well, I’m convinced! BRB. Going to max out the credit cards. . .

    Christianistas predict the world is coming to an end. Again. For realz, this time!

    • Jamoche

      And I feel fine.

      • wait! what?

        Homer keeps undoing the rapture; THAT’S WHY the dates always changing.

        https://youtu.be/Db0MV6YusJY

        • Jamoche

          Crowley and Aziraphale have been thwarting it as well.

    • Three Finger Salute

      Stop teasing me. I’m at a point where I want them to be right.

    • BadKitty904

      Given our current “government,” that’d be a step up.

    • OrG

      Don’t worry, I prayed it away.

      • Three Finger Salute

        TIL the apocalypse is gay?

    • gene108

      The world is coming to an end.

      The issue is do we really need to worry about it right now or in a billion years?

  • Dept. of Space Tacos

    so, OT: At the internship I’ve been given the task of writing a new kind of petition (lawsuit). But I also have to write a statutorily required “Notice” of what we’re doing first.

    Point being, I figured I’d work on the notice this weekend and it’s still crap. It’s just. not. coming. together. If I can’t even get through the notice, how is the petition going to look?!? (extra pressure cause the attorney on this project had been told I’m a great writer).

    Needed to vent, thanks.

    • Jamoche

      Take a break from it. Think about the petition for a bit, that might give you some ideas for the notice.

      • Dept. of Space Tacos

        that’s a genuinely good point.

        I have more confidence in the petition to be honest, as there are similar ones for other types of cases that we use as templates. Also, a lawsuit is pretty much a lawsuit, so there’s a “form” to it.

        The notice is described in the statutes just as “written notice.” So, I suppose it could be very informal. But given that’s it REQUIRED before initiating a suit of this kind, I don’t wanna fuck it up. (cause, no proper notice, no proper lawsuit = dismissal).

    • Ωbjectifier

      Maybe do the petition first, that will lead you to the justification required for the notice. Or something.

    • Shanzgood

      Who is the notice intended for?

      • Dept. of Space Tacos

        we have to inform another agency of what we’re going to do. If they don’t respond in a certain period of time or tell us they don’t care about our thing, we can move forward on our own.

        If we don’t, we have to work with them.

        The only reason I’m so focused on that is the “period of time part.” I have weeks and months to work on the lawsuit, but we NEED to start the clock on this notice first.

        • TundraGrifter

          “If at first you don’t succeed, try, try again. And then go do something else. No use being a damn fool about it.”
          ~ W.C. Fields (more or less)

          • Dept. of Space Tacos

            lol, yeah, I laughed out loud.

            Thanks.
            ; )

          • TundraGrifter

            Much to the amusement of my wife each morning I work the newspaper Sudoku. I’ve learned that after ten or fifteen minutes if I’m not making major progress I go to work at work that I actually get paid for, then come back on a break and often see things I just didn’t see before.

            Now, your task is obviously much more serious and I don’t intend to demean it with my example. All I can say is, it works for me. With the caveat – you do have to actually go back and wrap it up!

            As for the notice, there must be endless examples you can review. Identify the key elements – the commonality between them – and take it from there. Henry Ford didn’t make his name reinventing the wheel. The one that was already out there worked fine for him.

          • Dept. of Space Tacos

            i love soduku! Another one of those things my mother harped on me about and I dismissed, till I tried it. (Like firefly, the tv show, believe it or not).

            The key elements things is, well key. I know what i want or need to say, it’s the wording that’s making me crazy.

            Legal writing is (rightly) too complicated and confusing. There’s (apparently) been a trend the last 10 years or whatever ot make it simple and easy to read. It’s even a requirement, technically, of the rules.

            It’s just that, this shit gets complicated! Can I ‘un-‘ or ‘de-‘ complicate something?

            ; )

          • TundraGrifter

            When I’d returned to college my mom told me “There’s this show on public television. I only understand half of it but it’s very funny. Next time you come for a visit we’ll watch it.” It was Monty Python.

        • SeekingCovfefeBarbie

          You’ve probably thought of this already, but isn’t there usually a required format for that? Are there examples you can refer to? Look at those before you simmer.

          • Dept. of Space Tacos

            sadly no. The law just says “written notice”, and apparently they’ve sent these notices before (the change in law recently was minor and has no effect on the notice, other than the time frame), I just want it to be really really really really good.

            ; )

      • OutOfOrbit

        YOU!

    • TundraGrifter

      Today’s Free Advice – Guaranteed to be worth what you paid for it – Put the notice aside and work on the petition. Your subconscious won’t forget the notice – it will be writing it for you while you push forward on the other part of your work. Sometimes the best results come from setting something aside for a while and letting it simmer. You have two things that must be completed – I’m guessing the deadline is the same for both – so work on the other half for a bit and then return to the notice.

      • Dept. of Space Tacos

        Putting it aside seems to be a consensus! (that I hadn’t even though of it).

        I’m a big, big, HUGE fan of letting it simmer. I spent two weeks on my brief to the court last semester. Writing, thinking, rewriting and rewriting and rewriting.

        It’s just been simmering all weekend and I haven’t made much progress and am frustrated. (I seriously woke up this morning with different parts of it simmering in my head. As an OCD person, I often wake up with lines of movies or songs repeating in my head – you know, when you’re awake, but not “awake.”)

    • Bitter Scribe

      Just keep at it. Things have a way of coming together just when you think they’re hopeless.

      Last week I completed a freelance article about the European market for electric motors. It was a nightmare. No one was returning my calls and emails, and a crucial call with a trade official in Belgium fell through (the call wouldn’t go through, and when it finally did, the connection was so bad and the guy’s accent so thick I couldn’t understand a word).

      But I kept calling, concentrating on companies in England and Ireland, where I was told they speak English. Finally, on literally the last day before the article was due, I got a great phone interview and two great email replies that put me over the top.

      Remember, worrying about how an assignment is going is a sign of a conscientious worker. Just don’t let the worry overwhelm you and you’ll be fine.

      • Dept. of Space Tacos

        Nice! Glad you’re article came together. i did journo work back in the day.
        My most memorable “writer’s block” was trying to write a lead story about “hey, it snowed.”

        Simple, uncomplicated (not some city tax proposal bullshit) and it took me all day. I think I finished it 30 minutes before air.

        Thanks all for teh support. I’m just frustrated.

    • bubbuhh

      Drink a bit then try again. It worked for Rumpole.

      • OutOfOrbit

        swell stuff that. in fact, the boss of me is AKA She Who Must Be Obeyed

      • Marion in Savannah

        Can you get Chateau Fleet Street here? My liquor store doesn’t stock it.

        • bubbuhh

          Sad, but true. The good news there are magic bottle stoppers available which can turn any cheap red(dish) plonk into the Amero equivalent of Chateau Thames Embankment . Taylor Tawny Port is an ideal starter for the process.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/01d5bf5cb76a90907272659e622dcb30ba570a33d9f94da9f6cd4597d7690ea0.jpg

          • The Wanderer

            I’ve got Cotes du Rod Laver in my wine cabinet. I drank my last bottle of Nuits St. Wagga-Wagga a while back.

          • Marion in Savannah

            Damn but Rod Laver was a hell of a tennis player.

    • OutOfOrbit

      if it is writers block just type random thoughts till something gives

      • Dept. of Space Tacos

        you’re right. that is usually what I do. Just put down shit on paper and then move it around and tweak.

        I know what I NEED to say (legally), it’s just HOW to say it that’s frustrating.

      • Dept. of Space Tacos

        i’m actually making some progress now. Thanks for encouraging me to just put it down on paper, even if it’s shite. (And it is shite at the moment, but I’m getting somewhere).

    • Mysterious Masked Wrestler

      I find that if I can’t write or find myself really struggling, it’s usually because I’m sleep deprived. So I sleep.
      Everything’s easier after you’ve slept.

      • Mysterious Masked Wrestler

        Although I just clumsily used the two “find” twice within the same sentence, so maybe I’m not quite ready to give out advice about writing.

    • The Librarian

      Do you have access to any law books that have sample pleading forms? They usually have checklists and other good stuff.

      ETA: https://www.oconnors.com/store/products/details/oconnors-texas-civil-forms-2017

  • IdiokraticCulturalMarxist

    Well alrighty then, I guess I’ll write this shit down. I had just turned 19 in 1965 when I received a letter instructing me to report for pre-induction physical. Well fuck, I wasn’t ready to die just yet, and I also didn’t feel the need to kill anyone, and they had started drafting into the Marines as well as the Army. So I went down to the recruitment office and signed up for the Air Force, cause I figured there was a better chance for survival in that arena. In January, 1966, I went through basic training and later advanced training as a military journalist. (The pen is mightier than the M-16?) I was about 18 months at Vandenberg AFB in California when I got orders for Vietnam (which I volunteered for because fuck it, now was my chance to be a war correspondent:) I arrived in country in early March,1968, a few days after Tet. I was a replacement for one of the guys who got killed during the VC/NVA offensive. I had been assigned to the base newspaper at 7th Air Force Headquarters at Tan Son Nhut AB, Saigon, Vietnam. After the VC slacked off with the rocket and mortar attacks, it was basically a nine to five job. I would go out and do interviews and write stories about the AF guys and their jobs, sometimes would fly along with them if they were pilots. I liked being there. The Vietnamese people I met were friendly and gracious. I know it’s in contrast to most of the stories going around, but I never felt threatened by anyone I met there. While I was in Vietnam, Martin Luther King, Jr. was assassinated, as was Bobby Kennedy. The Chicago Democratic Convention happened. Nixon was elected. After 9 months, I was sent back to the States for medical reasons. At Travis AFB, CA, I was diagnosised with thyroid cancer. After treatment I was discharged. I stayed in Berkeley and Oakland for a while when the anti-war stuff was going on. I sent my Bronze Star back to Nixon when he invaded Cambodia. End the wars, motherfuckers.

    • Parakeetist

      Thank you.

      • hudson

        thank you for not spurning the call and instead heeding to it.

      • IdiokraticCulturalMarxist

        You’re all welcome. And I’m not just Forrest Gumping you either.

    • Dept. of Space Tacos

      Thanks for sharing your story.

    • doktorzoom

      Thanks for that. This is why I love these threads, and Wonkette in general. Also, You should definitely copy that over to the TV series website.

      • BadKitty904

        Amen.

      • IdiokraticCulturalMarxist
        • armed_bears

          And you topped thyroid cancer too…. well done.

          • RubyDMatta

            (Get Now $99 hourly with Google){what’s more, carry on with a financially solid life…})(Get-paid-weekly by Google)
            last tuesday I got Land Rover Range Rover after I been earnin $12184 this month . this is certainly my favourite job Ive ever done . I started this five months/ago and pretty much immediately started to earn minimum $75 per-hour . look at here now
            !si293d:
            ➽➽
            ➽➽;➽➽ http://GoogleOnlineShareEasyTechJobsOpportunities/easy/jobs ★✫★★✫★✫★★✫★✫★★✫★✫★★✫★✫★★✫★✫★★✫★✫★★✫★✫★★✫★✫★★✫★✫★★✫★✫:::::!ss253l..,.

          • SarahCSoares

            Google pays now $99 to each worker for working on computer.You can also avail this.
            On tuesday I got a great new Land Rover Range Rover from having earned $11752 this last four weeks..with-out any doubt it’s the most-comfortable job I have ever done .. It sounds unbelievable but you wont forgive yourself if you don’t check it
            !si295d:
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        • Marion in Savannah

          You was adorable! I’d have been all over that…

          • IdiokraticCulturalMarxist

            Awww (blushes), you’re sweet.

        • Carpe Vagenda

          Aw, lookit how shiny you were.

          • Carpe Vagenda

            When I went to the Wall in DC for the first time, on a Memorial Day, I broke down when I realized that the scary grizzled Rolling Thunder guys were the same age as the barely more than kids in the pictures leaning against the bottom of the wall with the teddy bears and the letters, but they lived.

    • CripesAmighty

      That. Is one helluva story. Thanks for sharing it with us–and 2x Dok–send it to Burns.

    • Persistent Tennessee Rain

      Like I said, you learn history by getting to know the people who lived it. Thank you

  • bubbuhh

    But we WON the Vietnams. Rambo n Braddock took the Nams n chewed them up n spit em on Minnesota. Itz on fillum so it must be true. Plus, Reagun invaded Grenada n Panama to keep the vietcommie menace frum ar shores. Ken Burns FAKE NEWZ!!!!

    • wait! what?

      Did you just channel Otto?!

      https://youtu.be/EfX7AxRuCyc

      • bubbuhh

        Nobody Otto channel Otto.

    • Walter Wellstone

      That’s right. Donald Trump, our God Emperor went to Vietnam (everyone knows that) and he taught John Rambo how to use his knife to make spikes to gore the VC terrorists. Then Donald flew a B52 to Laos and Cambodia and pacified those countries (he also scouted locations to build golf courses and condos) and then Donald went to Grenada and Panama and fucking taught Ronald Reagan how to invade those places. He’s been Making America Great since the sixties and he continues to do so today. He alone was able to push Hurricane Irma AWAY from Mar-a-Lago because why would he let his property get fucked up if he has the power to take authority over hurricanes with a single thought? This awesome power was given to him by teh Jeebus thanks to all the prayin’ from Jim Bakker and Paula White; power that shall not be questioned. Period. Just as he did with Irma he will do with Jose–he will deport that motherfucker back to Mexico and Mexico will pay for his plane ticket. MAGA!!!!!111!!!!!!!!!11!!

  • BosGrl

    So I missed the kerfluffle with our lupin troll. I’ve been trying to be nice to him, but I take it that was pointless?

    • Bub, the cynical zombie

      Pretty much, yeah. He was blocked by most of the people online last night. I think he may have deleted his account, and good riddance.

    • Three Finger Salute

      The general consensus is that he’s either a bot, a Russian, or just not right in the head in one way or another.

      • OrG

        Or just a contrary asshole.

        • Anna Rompage

          I hate contrainians almost as much as I hate Illinois Nazis…

          • Dept. of Space Tacos

            no you don’t!

            ; p

          • shivaskeeper

            I like them if they can defend the contrary view point. It can make me see things from an angle I’m missing.

            Being contrary just to be contrary is tedious at best.

    • OutOfOrbit

      i tried to get where he was coming from & decided he is not sane

    • Spotts1701, Nothingburger Chef

      Not necessarily “pointless”, my dear friend. It just didn’t turn out the way we expected.

    • SisterArtemis

      Is this the one e who was posting under other people’s names? I’m a pretty forgiving, scroll-past and ignore, but that was the last straw for me with that gay/gal/troll/bot.

      • BosGrl

        Is that what happened? Ugh.

        • Resistance Fighter Astraea

          Before that he started accusing everyone of cyber harassing them and was spamming threats of a lawsuit.

        • shivaskeeper

          Eventually that’s what happened. There was attempted fat and age shaming. There was defending the incels because it’s all just joking and memes. There was deliberately misunderstanding the difference between ogling a picture of someone who is pissed to be sexy in a photoshoot vice ogling every random person on the street. There are accusations of stalking and people with multiple accounts harassing him. There was him going to tell the mods on everyone. Then there was the spoof accounts.

          It was a long couple of hours.

          • BosGrl

            Uh, I am not sorry I missed that. Thanks.

  • Anna Rompage

    Shared housing ethics question;

    Hypothetically speaking, say my housemate and I share a two bedroom home, the rent is $1400/month, and we split the rent evenly, both paying $700/mo.

    We’ve lived with this agreement for the last two years.

    Present day; one of us is super stoked on their significant other, and we all agree that the SO is going to move in with the housemate and I.

    As far as rent goes, does it now get split 3 ways because 3 people are living in the house, or does it stay at $700 for my housemate and her sweetie, and $700 for me because the rent is the price of the room, no matter how many people are living in it?

    BTW, it’s raining in Portland! Yay for the end of fire season!

    • OrG

      Three-way split.

    • Marion in Savannah

      Three way split — if the SO is living there why should it be for free?

    • hudson

      1400/3.

      you pay for common areas too, plus utilities?

    • OutOfOrbit

      i’m on the fence …

      watching

    • Toomush_Inferesistance

      Less space, more of a pain for you – three way split…

    • Spotts1701, Nothingburger Chef

      I’m with others – split the rent three ways. Bedroom is one part of the house. The common areas are shared, and utilities are a shared cost.

    • BadKitty904

      3-way. The addition of another human into your living space merits said human paying a equal share.

    • TundraGrifter

      33%-33%-33%. That way your current roommate gets something out of it because it won’t be the same. Save the money you’re saving on the reduced rent because the current rommie will probably leave in 3 to 6 months.

      I know this sounds too anal (“Anal retentive is certainly better than the opposite” – Woody Allen) but you’ll probably also need to be clearly establish the House Rules. Best to lay it out up front.

    • Stulexington

      Well since 1400 doesn’t split evenly, I’d swing the round off in their favour but bedroom is one part of the house, the SO still has stuff that needs storing, and uses 1/3 of the appliances and such.

    • SeekingCovfefeBarbie

      The rent is not just for the bedroom but for sharing the common spaces, right? I vote 3-way.

    • Rags

      I would say if your roomie hasn’t already been upright and made what you feel is a generous offer to you for expenses, it is time to take whatever you can get and start looking for a new domicile if possible. I know that’s a bit of privilege talking as I don’t know your circumstances, but there it is.

      • Anna Rompage

        It’s actually my sweetie who is moving in, and she doesn’t understand why I’m insiting on splitting the rent 3 ways, instead of keeping it the same, and her and I splitting the $700 for the room

        • Resistance Fighter Astraea

          Congrats!

          • Anna Rompage

            Thank you, though this rent thing is a pain in the fucking ass…

          • Resistance Fighter Astraea

            Yeah, I hear that. I hope you can come to terms. But as others said, they’ll be using the common areas, kitchen, storage, etc. Not just the bedroom. You roomie is giving up that space, and some additional privacy with another person around. At the least, up your shared contribution to like 850 and split that between the two of you. It’s a little lower than the 930 or so you’d be paying together in a 3 way split.

          • Dept. of Space Tacos

            good points.

            Also, what’s the bathroom situtation like? 1 or two? Cause that can be a big thing.

          • Anna Rompage

            2 full baths, we each have one

        • shivaskeeper

          Because then roomie is on the hook for $700 and you each only pay $350. It’s a basic fairness issue.

          • Anna Rompage

            Pretty much..

            I’m all for splitting it 3 ways myself…

            I’ve lived in shared housing most of my life, and in my world rent gets split between the number of people living there, and is not just a fee for the room regardless of how many people are living in it…

            Granted, I have been in situations where the person with the master bedroom paid nominally more because of the extra space and private bath

          • shivaskeeper

            I get that. That is a possible way to present it to sweetie.

          • Anna Rompage

            I’ve tried a couple of times and she can’t seem to grasp the concept…

            It’ll work itself out in the end, but the journey to that place has not been fun…

            I was asking the initial question just to make sure i was not being unreasonable, and stubborn…

          • Marion in Savannah

            Good luck, and let us know how it all shakes out.

          • shivaskeeper

            I understand.

        • Maggielle

          Is there any way of telling her that you love her, but that many many people with excellent judgment at a highly respected website wish her well, but have decided she is wrongity wrong wrong wrong on this issue?

        • Rags

          Ah- reading comprehension fail here…..

    • Toledo Window Box

      3 ways. Adding another person to a 2-person home drastically changes everything.

    • shivaskeeper

      Three way split. Either rent goes down to $470 each or you get screwed.

      If you keep it at $600 each, and housemate and SO split their half @ $350 each you are still screwed.

      As others said, the rent is for common areas in addition to the room.

      Utilities ate the same split if they are not included in the rent.

    • Dept. of Space Tacos

      I’m assuming SO shares your room?
      in that case, housemate is $700, you two, as a couple, split $700. The utilities should be a 3-way split.

      • Marion in Savannah

        That implies that SO never leaves the bedroom. (Which may be a good thing, but SO may get a wee bit stir crazy.)

        • Dept. of Space Tacos

          i scrolled down and saw the other comments.

          It might be a good idea to go 3-way (RENT-WISE PERVERTS!).

          It’s a tiny bit unfair, maybe, to the SO, but it might smooth over any hurt feelings with the housemate since he/she is paying less.

          The housemate’s rent goes from $700 to $467 or so, and the SO’s goes from $350 to $467.

          Given the shared areas and all, I think you all are right…I retract my previous comment.

      • The Militant Homosexual Agenda

        If the SO enters and exits through the bedroom window and never steps foot in any other part of the house, I would agree.

    • Mystery_Poster

      Since the couple shares a bedrooom, and thus each member has less personal space I don’t think a 1/3 split is the way to go, nor is 50-50 really fair. I think the couple should pay 60% and the single 40%.

    • Panika MCD

      start with getting the utilities split three ways. then discuss how much common areas are shared on the rent split.

      • bubbuhh

        Agreed. Make sure the utilities are split three ways. mebbe, declare an intention to see how it goes when it comes to other stuff like use of the common areas and housekeeping.

    • akryan

      split the shit evenly. don’t come up with some weird formula. Sweetie is now living there, so sweetie should pay their share of the expenses. honestly, it’s something that you should have discussed as soon as there was any discussion of them moving in.

      • The Militant Homosexual Agenda

        I don’t get this, “but two of them are sharing a bedroom” thing. Three of them are sharing a house. That’s what the $1400/mo is being paid for.

    • Alan

      It’s three ways. Or if you really want to get technical, they take up half the space combined for 8 hours and one third each for 16 hours. So you pay 544.44 and they each pay 427.78. No way do you pay half if you share with 2 other people. I’ve seen that multiple times and, in the worst case, it leads to physical violence.

      • Alan

        Oops, I thought it was the other way around. Reverse the numbers if you’re moving someone in.

    • Maggielle

      Many smart comments, and I agree that three-way split plus upfront discussion of other issues that arise when a new person joins the household. But may I take a moment to sigh with envy? A two bedroom, two bathroom home (as in, like, house?) for $1400 a month? This sounds like a dream to me, like from maybe 1990, here in the SF Bay Area.

      BTW – I am cheering for your rain! Also good luck with the housing situation and talk everything out and make lists and schedules and stuff. It can totally work but you have to be upfront about it.

    • The Militant Homosexual Agenda

      A 3-way split. Period. You and your roommate share a two bedroom HOME. You are splitting the rent of the entire structure not just the two bedrooms within. Adding a third means 1/3 for all. If two of the three want to share a BR that is their choice. However, all three of you are sharing the public spaces equally. Unless your roommate’s SO never comes out of the BR… and you continue to hear muffled cries. But then you’ve got other worries.

  • Toomush_Inferesistance

    Meant to go. Ended up in college instead, thanks to my dad surprise paying my first quarter Stayed there until the lottery, and learned that the war was too stupid to believe. Sent my draft card back to the county draft board, giving them my new address in Tacoma, WA, where the Freddy Collective and I spent time at Fort Lewis, giving folks the opportunity to go to Vancouver. I included a note with my returned draft card (the physical had me 1A) saying, No Thanks! Never heard from them. Eventually went back to school, along with a whole raft of crazy Nam vets. The ones who are still alive are my best buddies. What that shit did to them was not good and I will never forgive the politicians who put them there. Some of the ones who came home and died for reasons are still with me in my dreams and thoughts. Fuck Johnson. Fuck Nixon, Fuck Reagan…..and of course, any person in power who has tried to lie his or her asses off about this…

    • Dept. of Space Tacos

      nixon sabotaging a cease fire to win an election….grrrrrrrrr.

      I wasn’t even alive, but FUCK that.

      • BadKitty904

        Republican SOP.

        • amrak63

          GOP = Cruelty and Treason Party

      • The Wanderer

        Reagan did much the same, convincing the Iranians to slow-march the hostage negotiations to guarantee his victory over Carter.

        • HellhathnofuryDemme

          Yep.
          I remember thinking: the Ayatollah just elected the president of the USA.

  • gene108

    Work has become sort of stressful. I am at the point, I can’t handle things more intense than watching old “She-Ra” cartoons on Netflix.

    • SisterArtemis

      Try some My Little Pony, friendship is magic flavor. Also, King Julien anything flavor.

      • Dept. of Space Tacos

        I LOVE Penguins of Madagascar. (although Julien can take a hike).

        • SisterArtemis

          Julien has fallen into “lovable idiot” for me, and I am seriously enchanted by Mort. I’ve been watching the “exile” one with the grandkid lately.

    • bookish

      Sounds like a good choice to me.

    • Ω cynmac’s reclaiming her time

      Been there. Take care of yourself.

      • gene108

        Thanks

  • Spotts1701, Nothingburger Chef

    ESPN’s “public editor” (read: guy who gets paid to defend their stupid decisions) wrote some words on the Jemele Hill foofraw. Bottom line – she’s entitled to her opinion, but since she’s a “public-facing” member of ESPN posting it online was “a mistake”.

    • BadKitty904

      So is Trump.

    • Anna Rompage

      Jeeze, it would be nice if Faux Noose, InfoWars, DeadBart, and the whole slew of others played by the same rules…

    • bubbuhh

      ESPN’s “public editor”should shove his head back up his ass.

      • Marion in Savannah

        That implies that he took it out in the first place. Facts not in evidence!

        • bubbuhh

          I assume, since he made noise someone heard, that something came out of his ass.

    • Panika MCD

      what? was she supposed to post it on the bulletin board at her grocery store?

    • Alan

      I didn’t think she was merely expressing opinion. The evidence seems indisputable.

  • Cousin Itt un Mondialiste

    I was too young to be drafted but did see older neighborhood “kids” leave and come back as living ghosts.

    This is why I also offer that of the official Boomer generation, some of us aren’t, really. And I think being eligible for the draft is a bright line.

    • Toledo Window Box

      An all-volunteer military has a way of insulating the populace from the true horrors of war.

      • Old Man Yells at Cloud

        The all-volunteer military is a de facto economic draft.

        • Ω cynmac’s reclaiming her time

          But so was Viet Nam, with the deferments allowed and the lottery. Kind of a test run.

  • Jessica Martin

    Your description sounds like they took the Christian Appy route – check out Patriots: The Vietnam War Remembered From All Sides.
    Interested to see how this series differs from what’s already out there (esp the PBS series you mentioned).

  • Persistent Tennessee Rain

    You learn history by getting to know the people who lived through it. ken Burns is the master of getting to know the people

    • Phried Ω

      I think his WWII doc was made 10 years too late as it relied on younger siblings and cousins instead of the more immediate participants. That made it more of a home front war doc.

      • HellhathnofuryDemme

        But there’s “Band of Brothers” and “The Pacific.”
        Wrenching stuff!

  • Panika MCD

    *peeks in*

    are we troll-free now?

    • Marion in Savannah

      Blessedly free of them.

    • Dept. of Space Tacos

      yes, and having some really interesting talks.

      • Panika MCD

        I see. my interblag is not happy at the moment. not sure why as it is not technically my interblag.

        • Dept. of Space Tacos

          this is not me. Wolf Tracker is back and posting as me.

          • Panika MCD

            what? fucking fuck.

          • How is that even possible?

          • Dept. of Space Tacos

            your nym is alterable as is your photo. But if you click on the real me and the not me, you’ll see our “@disus” profile is different.

      • Suttree

        I await my mail asking me to report to the court of cursing at Morans.

        • Dept. of Space Tacos

          Don’t worry- I will defend you cuz I am community school law man and 36 year old virgin still living with my mommy.

        • Dept. of Space Tacos

          heh, it’ll be an interesting case considering our community spreads from California and Oregon to Idaho to Kansas and Missouri to New Mexico and Texas, virginia, florida, NYC, Britain, and all the way to Australia and Japan.

          • Suttree

            So no nullification jerks.

          • Suttree

            I cannot upvote you any more!!!!!!

        • Dept. of Space Tacos

          the below is not me.

    • Shanzgood

      For now. I don’t expect he’s gone for good, like Spags or TLM.

      • Panika MCD

        Spags is gone for good?

        • Shanzgood

          I don’t know. He’s not one I’m very familiar with.

      • Ω cynmac’s reclaiming her time

        I reported him for the messages below.

    • Phried Ω

      I suspected a clever bot after it failed to follow the sea lion post cross-post.

    • hudson

      *turns around to the sound of tippy toes*, hey here, *pop*, have a cold one. all clear.

    • hudson
    • Dept. of Space Tacos

      not me below.

  • Toomush_Inferesistance

    For me, the proof will be in whether Burns makes clear that it was Nixon directing the CIA to pay off-duty narcs with long hair to spit on G.I.s returning to San Fran after their tours of duty… That lie about anti-war activists doing it was designed as cleverly as a Putin election troll…

    • notaten

      I was told a story by my older brother once, that at the time I dismissed as just drunk talk, about how he was spit on by a protester at the airport when he came back from Vietnam. When he was discharged from the military and got a job as a cop, he was introduced to a guy who worked undercover, and thought hmm, this guy looks familiar. He finally asked the guy if he ever spit on returning Vietnam vets at the airport. The guy says, yeah, we got paid overtime to pretend we were protesters and spit on you all. So maybe now, I will adjust my opinion of my brother’s veracity slightly upward.

  • bookish

    https://apple.news/AcaTZjJRaTAaZTDkUKGddJA

    Let’s begin with the nastiest, most offensive aspect of this — the knocking-a-woman-to-the-ground aspect. Viewed through the lens of his previous actions and statements — for example, his acknowledgment that “you know, I retweet, I retweet for a reason” — his Sunday retweet reads like this: the President thinks violence against women is funny.

  • grindstone

    This isn’t my story, but I’m going to tell it: for awhile, most of the people who worked for me on a manufacturing floor were Vietnamese. Our new product was French, and most of the Vietnamese could read French, so they were valued.

    One guy smuggled away on a produce boat, then another boat, then another, until he got to California, then made his way to NC. Then he managed to get his whole family over.

    One lady who worked for me was beautiful, seriously advanced pretty. She and her family were extremely well brought up, but wound up in a Thai refugee camp until they could get a boat. Her sister covered her with mud and dirt, blacked her teeth, and ratted her hair, so no guy would attack her on the boat. It happened anyway. Turns out, yet another guy who worked with us came to her rescue, and became her guardian.

    To me, these were all just folks who worked, who I respected and took care of. Once I found out some of their stories, I treated them with particular deference. I was unworthy to be their manager.

    • Persistent Tennessee Rain

      There was a man who worked in a local nail salon. He was clearly half black but was fluent in vietnamese. He appeared to be in his mid forties. I realized he was most likely the product of a vietnamese woman and an american soldier. everytime I would see him, the Clash song, “straight to hell” would pop into my head

    • Wonderful story. I grew up on the in Nor Cal and saw the results of the post war immigration first hand. In 5th grade my class was very diverse but with no Vietnamese classmates. In 6th grade I had three Vietnamese classmates. By 7th grade I had a dozen Vietnamese classmates and by the time I graduated high school some of my best friends were children of the war.

      It is humbling to consider what they went through and this is the reason I am so upset by the policy on Syrian immigrants today.

    • Panika MCD

      thank you for treating them for the human beings they were and are.

    • An Outhouse for the résistance

      I too work with a few of them. I have the greatest admiration for them.

  • Persistent Tennessee Rain

    I still wear the pow bracelet of private Gary Lee Hall. He died at 18 in the Mayaguez Incident. I only know of the Mayaguez Incident because I got to know Gary Lee Hall. Know his name. Know his story. He deserves that much.

    • mancityRed6

      he does, you’re right

      • Persistent Tennessee Rain

        Thank you

        • mancityRed6

          thank you for bringing his memory to my attention.

          • Persistent Tennessee Rain

            There’s a book, “the last battle of Vietnam” – it is a good read

          • mancityRed6

            I will look that up, thank you.

  • bubbuhh
  • It’s so warm here i had to turn on my AC again. No, it doesn’t snow all the time in Canuckistan. But now, i can make cookies for lunches this week

    • mancityRed6

      umm…what kind of cookies?
      just asking

  • akryan

    My grandpa told my dad not to go because within a generation we’d be trading with them anyway. I now own a jacket made in Vietnam. Dad said he just happened to win the lottery and was way down on the draft list.

  • Lyly Sirivong

    We even came up with a new form of flash photography to illuminate our fighters and villagers who were living in bomb shelters and tunnels. We emptied gunpowder from rifle cartridges onto a small handheld device and then lit the gunpowder with a match. The burning powder provided all the light we needed.

    https://twitter.com/realalexrubi/status/817977324700319745

    • Ω cynmac’s reclaiming her time

      I looked at those pictures. Haunting. Especially the combat boots.

  • Panika MCD

    Sandra Bland case update.

    https://www.texastribune.org/2017/09/16/trooper-fired-sandra-bland-stop-my-safety-was-jeopardy/

    I still think this all goes back to two things.

    1) the fact that we have to encourage our police to catch people to make their departments’ costs. no one wants to arrest their neighbor, so it encourages the ticketing of people with out of state plates. I still think the out of state plates was why she was followed in the first place. it’s just about as fucked a way of funding things as it gets.

    b) we’re still sending DPS to the border for stints without travel compensation. they get there tired, they return tired. when people are tired, their inner asshole comes out. I would not be surprised to find out that Encinia had recently returned from border duty.

    if they don’t say these things, these things don’t get fixed. I just covered a TCJS hearing on the implementation of the Sandra Bland Act and there’s still not enough money to implement the little they did–which is not as much as the family wanted, but we live to fight another day. we only have $1M in grant funding to implement the additional efforts rural counties are being asked to add. in a state of 254 counties–most of which are rural– do you think that’s enough to cover movement sensors and tele-mental health and tele-health services?

    • mancityRed6

      “But when investigators asked why he didn’t order Bland out of the car at that point, or ask what she was doing, Encinia said he had no answer.”
      what a fucking ass

      • Panika MCD

        you know he was mislabeled as “white” because up until 2012 we didn’t have “H” as an ethnicity option on drivers licenses, right? yeah, his voter reg showed him as Hispanic. shit’s that fucked up. that’s why I keep thinking both border duty and local finances have something to do with it.

        • mancityRed6

          I did not know that. and the stories did not mention his race. but, that’s unimportant. he was an ass and a scaredy ass titty baby who did not need to be in that job.
          she did nothing worth pulling over for.

          • Panika MCD

            this is why I think border duty may have had something to do with it. that’s why it’s important. also why I think the out of state plates were important.

          • mancityRed6

            Texas is an ass about out of state anything. but Waller county is closer to Louisiana than Mexico, so border?

          • Panika MCD

            when they started the border rush in 2015 (for which we have invested $1.6B and received $2.3M back), they had troopers going down there for 3-4 months per year and not compensating them for travel. they prefer Capitol duty–and they fucking hate Capitol duty even though it is 1-2 weeks per year, unless that is their regular place. (one of my favorites just retired…boo for me. yay for him.) so they often leave the communities they love, drive 3-12 hours and spend the whole time sitting on the side of the highway looking for something they can legally pull people over for. it doesn’t matter where in the state you live, if you’re a trooper, you do border duty. it also leaves rural communities without the troopers they rely on them given they can only hire so many people on their budgets. it’s stupid. and it gets dumber when you note the 80 TPWD park rangers down there.

          • mancityRed6

            that’s just fucking stupid.
            I never thought anything any state ever did would make Kansas look meh, but that is it.

          • Panika MCD

            I think KS is still beating us in the Dumb Department. just remember that Kobach is a fucking asshole. though, I will say that Mike Morath is giving everyone a run for their money right now.

          • mancityRed6

            Moran, and thanks for bringing up both of those bastards without mentioning Brownback.
            ex governor Perry.
            current governor ironsides.
            lieutenant governor currently under investigation.
            so, yeah.
            two …that kind of game…monopoly, maybe?

          • Panika MCD

            Perry is only as harmful as the cute boys he hires.

            I wish our lt. gov. was under investigation. only our AG is.

          • mancityRed6

            that’s what I like about you, pointing out how I’m wrong.

          • Panika MCD

            his office truly is full of the most adorable boys!

          • mancityRed6

            I will take your word on that.

          • Panika MCD

            they are cute! (if a bit dense at times.)

          • mancityRed6

            yeah, but, yeah.

    • Spotts1701, Nothingburger Chef

      I think those are reasonable points. You can tell from his statements he can’t articulate why he did the things that he did. He even admits he can’t articulate why he was following her beyond “she ran a stop sign that I can’t say was on public or private property”.
      It’s hard to get a police officer indicted for perjury (because prosecutors are reluctant to pursue such a charge unless it is blatant and incontrovertible). The mere presence of such a charge seems to indicate they knew they had to get him out of law enforcement, even if they couldn’t charge him with her death.

      • Panika MCD

        he wasn’t a police officer, though; or a sheriff’s deputy for that matter. he was a state trooper.

        • Spotts1701, Nothingburger Chef

          Fair enough point. But still – making a perjury case against “the man with the badge” is still some uphill climb.

          • Panika MCD

            I know. and I also know some great troopers. I just feel like making sure people know who to complain to is important.

          • Spotts1701, Nothingburger Chef

            DPS did fire him, so they get an attaboy for that part.

          • Panika MCD

            Col. McCraw gets “atta boy” for the “I have better things to do” face on both POTUS visits and for firing the person I told him was embarrassing women (including fellow troopers) by waving feminine hygiene products around in the air during SWTW. “atta boy” is not for firing people who should have been fired.

  • chascates

    I remember watching a television drama on our B&W set (maybe 1965?) that was about a black American military advisor and a patrol he goes on. The ARVN troops disregard his advice about moving through a wooded area and are wiped out by VC regulars. The rest of the show concerns him trying to return to safety, being helped by a Vietnamese farm girl, and finally, dying when he is found by Charlie.
    There was no good ending to this TV show and I was brought up to expect good endings. Vietnam couldn’t have any good ending.

  • Juan de Fuca

    Way O/T but I had these pork chops for dinner last night at Karl Strauss Brewery and they were so good I decided to try out their brine recipe today and see if mine come out just as good. They were delicious and because Karl Strauss shares their recipes, here it is:

    Beer-Brined Pork Chops
    2 Cups Red Trolley Ale
    1/2 Cup Brown Sugar
    1/4 Cup Honey
    1/4 Cup Kosher Salt
    2 (8-ounce) Center-cut Pork Chops
    Step 1. Brine the pork chops: In a medium mixing bowl, combine the brown sugar, honey, salt,and Red Trolley Ale. Mix until sugar and salt are dissolved. Add the pork chops, submerging them completely, and refrigerate for 4-6 hours. Turn the chops ever couple of hours.
    Step 2. Grill pork chops: Removed chops from brine, rinse with water, and pat dry with a paper towel. Grill chops on hot grill for 12 minutes, rotating a quarter turn on each side after three minutes.

    https://strauss89.wordpress.com/tag/beer-brined/
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ab681c5cdbe131c938ffc597f9b8cc48c59745b82bf6113c83f5206c3d4dc662.jpg

    That is literally all you need for great pork chops.

    • hudson

      they share their recipes?!! awesome.

    • Suttree

      That is my problem with chops. I never brine them.

    • Will Tecate work?

      • Dept. of Space Tacos

        YES!

      • Juan de Fuca

        I’m using their Aurora Hoppyalis IPA so I think it should. At least I hope so.

        *Fingers crossed on the IPA brine*

  • JoeChristmas

    Ho Chi Minh kicked our ass. No bone spurs there.

    • BadKitty904

      America’s most serious defeat until the Russian Attack of 2016.

      • Lord Jim

        Great Counterfactual Questions of History: What would have happened had we fought back? And not been such FUCKING EASY TARGETS in the first place?

        • BadKitty904

          I blame the Republicans.

  • Persistent Tennessee Rain

    The average age of the Viet Nam soldier was 19. That’s a ton of 18 year olds who brought down that number

    • BadKitty904

      I can’t even imagine…

      • Persistent Tennessee Rain

        I have a19 year old daughter. I can’t imagine sending someone her age of to w

        • BadKitty904

          I am now three beyond draft age, but have many cousins who are not. I can barely imagine them being issued driver’s licenses, much less being sent to war.

          • Dept. of Space Tacos

            IKR?

            A vet who was at my dad’s funeral told me he was too young and dumb to be scared.

            I am an absolute dummy now, so much more so at 19.

    • Shanzgood

      There’s a song about that.

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hRJFvtvTGEk

      • I WAS JUST ABOUT TO POST THIS!

        • Persistent Tennessee Rain

          They went in theater for 30 days at a time, living on MREs and in constant fear. This is the reason why the family visits on Survivor leave me cold.

      • Persistent Tennessee Rain

        I think this song is why I know that.

    • Ms.MLG on Maui

      My Dad was drafted at 19. My Grandma rarely displayed deep emotion, but when she talked about watching my Dad walk away from her the final time she saw him before he went to Vietnam, she was crying and shaking, all those many years later, and he was long back safely. My Dad’s older brother enlisted, and came home safely as well. We were lucky.

      • Persistent Tennessee Rain

        Are you kidding me? I cry and shake uncontrollably when my kid goes off to college!

  • bookish

    http://pressthink.org/2017/09/normalizing-trump-incredibly-brief-explainer/

    If nothing the president says can be trusted, reporting what the president says becomes absurd. You can still do it, but it’s hard to respect what you are doing. If the president doesn’t know anything, the solemnity of the presidency becomes a joke. That’s painful. If they can, people flee that kind of pain. In political journalism there is enough room for interpretive maneuver to do just that.

    This is “normalization.” This is what “tonight he became president” is about. This is why he’s called “transactional,” why a turn to bipartisanship is right now being test-marketed by headline writers. This is why “deal-making” is said to be afoot when there is barely any evidence of a deal.

    What they have to report brings ruin to what they have to respect. So they occasionally revise it into something they can respect: at least a little.

    • BadKitty904

      Trying to “normalize” what is patently “abnormal” does no service to our nation. The media should report this nightmare as exactly what it is.

    • Resistance Fighter Astraea

      I have sympathy for the difficulty many individuals have who are making the attempt (the ones who aren’t just cynical assholes). But I have little patience for it because it is destroying our ability to function as a democracy.

    • Spotts1701, Nothingburger Chef

      They are so used to “round peg into round hole” type reporting that when a square peg like Donnie comes along they can’t do anything but keep trying to shove him into the same frame.

  • Bill D. Burger

    Let’s review our Dear Leader and Vietnam:
    One thing I’ll say for draft dodger extraordinaire Trump, he knew how to escape and evade: He got 5 draft deferments and dodged the draft during Vietnam. He marched up and down the field of a private military school’s football field and “…felt like he WAS in the military.” And got “…better training than most of the people who served in Vietnam.” He DID get a neatness medal!
    He also escaped, he says, veneral disease during that period and was fucking any girl he could grab…and THAT was his “…personal Vietnam.” Whatta’ guy, huh?
    And as he reflects back on his insult to McCain’s service, bet he’ll catch glimpses of Burns’ documentary and think, “I would have won that war on Day 1. Believe me. You can believe me.”

    And remember: “There’s nobody bigger or better at the military than I am. Trust me.” __ DJT
    (Whatever the fuck that means.)
    And in the 80’s Trump honored those who served and were damaged this way:
    http://vietnam.politifake.org/image/political/1602/draft-dodger-trump-the-80s-tried-have-disabled-veteran-stree-politics-1455846609.jpg

  • Bill D. Burger
    • OutOfOrbit

      tRumpter resigning is the best outcome i expect: he won’t have to suffer impeachment, and the words for his crimes will be, “Let us not look back (can mueller & shred everything) but move forward to healing.”

      –Bams Obama r.e. bushco

  • bluicebank

    A little known after-effect of the Vietnam War:

    Since 1917, all men (either from age 21 or later age 18, up to a varying older age), were required to register with the Selective Service System. On March 29, 1975, President Ford terminated the system, but on July 2, 1980, President Carter reinstated it.

    As a result, for those of us born between March 29, 1957, and December 31, 1959, we were the ONLY men in a hundred years not registered for possible duty (unless you enlisted).

    • Shanzgood

      Until my son had to register, I didn’t even realize it was still in effect.

    • My dad was “4F” for Korea because he was a farmer.

    • Alternative Dog

      That would be me. Enlisted in 1976 and served in Germany. In the upper ranks there were several guys who served in Vietnam. A couple still had problems with heroin addiction and quite a few of them were alcoholics.

  • Bill D. Burger
    • hudson

      ribbit. ribbit.

      • OutOfOrbit

        croak croak

    • mancityRed6

      oh dog, he’s just so damn old.
      lookit that fake tan and how baggy his eyes are.
      doesn’t he look, I dunno, overwhelmed?

    • bupkus231

      Oh, lord – only three minutes since the last time you posted this meme. What did he do in the interim?

  • Ω cynmac’s reclaiming her time

    @doktorzoom:disqus – the links posted for the book don’t work.

  • Dept. of Space Tacos

    the rude pundit experiences british healthcare (this will probably seem like no big deal to our foreign friends here, but it’s fucking amazing for us Americans):

    http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/2017/09/an-american-in-uk-national-health.html

    • Shanzgood

      I lived over there off and on for many years, so…yeah.

    • BosGrl

      Do we deserve nice things? There are so many people who don’t think we do.

      • Moebym of the Returners

        Here, we don’t deserve it if we can’t pay for it.

    • mancityRed6

      my parents went to the doctor, Americans who didn’t pay any of the taxes or fees, and all they had to pay was about $10 for the antibiotics.

    • Serai 1

      My dad had an emergency last time he was in Spain. Had to go to the hospital, be seen by a specialist, had scans taken, the whole nine yards. Came close to needing surgery, but escaped that. His bill? $0.

      • Which just goes to show the horror of socialized medicine?

        • Serai 1

          It’s a hideous spectre, indeed.

      • An Outhouse for the résistance

        Taker.

    • hudson

      i’ve always found the people courteous. but overall I’ve rarely had a satisfactory experience overall. for example, only rarely have i had the satisfaction of knowing the diagnosis. constant hedging.

      plus as he says the whole experience leaves me somehow feel degrading. what did you do wrong now type feeling.

    • BrendaKay

      Darwinian dystopia. Yep, that about sums it up.

    • bbayliss

      “…there was not a single person I met who seemed angry or beleaguered or disgusted by the system they worked in. Every one of them was simply devoted to making sure I was ok. No profit motive. No forms to fill out. No card to check.”

      That was my experience with their system.
      The last time I was in London I had a heart attack in Heathrow. Took an uber to King’s College medical center (my daughter was a student at King’s) I had two stents implanted in my heart, one day of recovery, and flew back to the states, on schedule, the next day.
      I told them I had insurance, so they billed me, 900 pounds, about $1200. I have 8 stents, the 6 done in the U. S.were billed to my insurance company at $50,000 to $90,000 each. (I don’t look at the bills anymore, blood pressure.) I don’t even know how much my insurance paid, my annual deductible is $5,000.
      The kindness, decency, and respect I experienced were greater than the best care I’ve received here.

      • Dept. of Space Tacos

        ye gods. I’m glad you’re okay,a nd yeah, the $$$ are fucking stoopid.

        I broke a collarbone, got looked at, some MRI’s, some pain medication and a splint.

        $11,000.

  • Dept. of Space Tacos

    friends, an impersonator is back.

    If you see something weird, check the person’s disqus profile.

    • OutOfOrbit

      impersonator?

      • Dept. of Space Tacos

        yup, it’s wolf tracker (based on the language and knowledge of me).

        He posts and then apparently deletes. It has my nym and avatar.

        • Anna Rompage

          Wasn’t there an episode of Star Trek like this?

          Who is the real Captin James T Kirk

          • Lizzietish81

            To quote Newsradio:

            This is just like that episode of Star Trek when they entered a parallel universe where everything was the same except they were all on heroin.

        • Serai 1

          Christ, what a fucking child.

          • Dept. of Space Tacos

            again, not me below. is a jackass who thinks I’m insulted at going to community college.

          • Dept. of Space Tacos
          • Lord Jim

            Remember what I said about projection? :)

          • mancityRed6

            oh god, it’s the Thing all over again.
            please, don’t let this end up in bloodshed.

          • Lizzietish81

            It’s like Hanover First, which is weird, this is the second time this week I’ve been moved to post this

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHgMsvpFm08

          • mancityRed6

            just like the wall, I’ve never seen that movie sober.

          • mancityRed6

            it has been that kind of week, huh?

          • Ms.MLG on Maui

            I wish like hell I had been able to finish any college, community or otherwise. My little sister just started (paid for!!!) community college. Tennessee gives students who meet the qualifications 2 years FREE. Isn’t that great? I am so proud of her!

          • Dept. of Space Tacos

            it is! And to be honest, if I didn’t have such an adventorous streak, community college is a good deal before entering university for a bachelors.

          • Ms.MLG on Maui

            She wants to be a paramedic, and will be able to complete the entire program through community college, then her plan is to move here to Maui.

          • Dept. of Space Tacos

            best of luck to her!

          • Lord Jim

            That is awesome.

          • Ms.MLG on Maui

            It really is, and if I remember correctly, young people up to 24 can take advantage of it now.

          • TundraGrifter

            Remember all those WW II Vets ashamed to go to college for little or no cost on the GI BIll? I don’t either.

            Post WW II, we built a roaring economy with free college, low downpayment home loans, strong unions, one person working could support a family, and a maximum Federal income tax rate of 90%+.

          • Ms.MLG on Maui

            My dad got what college education he had with the GI Bill, after Vietnam.

          • Lord Jim

            It seems to need professional help, so that rules me right out. I sincerely wish him the best while not regretting for an instant my decision to block him days ago.

          • Dept. of Space Tacos

            not me below.
            3

        • Resistance Fighter Astraea

          I don’t understand why this isn’t enough to get someone banned.

          • OutOfOrbit

            is it possible to ban a impersonator unless discus doz it?

          • Resistance Fighter Astraea

            I mean, Dok said he specifically that he wasn’t banning the original Wolf Tracker. It seems pretty obvious that this trolling is him, so if his other behavior wasn’t enough this should be.

          • OutOfOrbit

            doz WT have a pea tape on doK?

          • Dept. of Space Tacos

            not me below.

          • Dept. of Space Tacos

            Do you want to buy my left nut?

            Then we will both have one!

          • OutOfOrbit

            looks like that little POS wants you, mebbe me next

          • Resistance Fighter Astraea
          • OutOfOrbit

            i donut know anything about discus impersonation this is my first time and it donut seem interested in me

      • bubbuhh

        Disqus a bit of a hole in its avatar and sceenname protections. The asshat copies both and then posts stoopit shit so it seems like his victim has suddenly turned into a mentally ill asshat.

        • Dept. of Space Tacos

          not me, obvs.

          • bubbuhh

            of course not you

    • mancityRed6

      ahh.. the acid is kicking in and I’m just not…are you you? why did you do that? I love fried chicken.

      • Dept. of Space Tacos

        i am me. Maybe we should have a safeword.

        • mancityRed6

          wood chuck sounds good to me
          do you have the doritos?

        • natoslug

          Isn’t the safeword “green balloons”?

    • Have you poked Dok? That sounds like a rule-breaker, to me.

      • Dept. of Space Tacos

        I flagged one, but should be reflagging.

    • 🐶 BRAINTHRUST 5000 🐶

      Impersonating another account is a violation of Disqus TOS – I had one of those, and after notifying Disqus the entire account got banned.

      • Lizzietish81

        Click the User name, the one with the fewer (like 14 when I checked) is the impersonator. Flag him and block him.

    • bubbuhh

      Also report him as an impersonator. They have a box for that now.

      • Ms.MLG on Maui

        Done.

  • Everrett Fanuelli

    Will Ken Burns have the courage to make a documentary about his haircut?

  • bubbuhh

    Meet ESPN Public Editor Jim Brady who says Jemele Hill “made a mistake” in calling out Trump’s racism. Of course, last April he tweeted very differently
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e7008e27f95109db44f9985cbe61c773dec3febecaceec9a82e5ddeb7d3075d3.jpg

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5ac8717c4010c73ed28508a5433bc272cfb244c5ba0028984d14d2006e454b27.png

    • mancityRed6

      who got picked last in grade school? he did

    • Lord Jim

      I feel that he’s really making a bold statement with that hat.

      • bupkus231

        I wuz gonna say , “So that’s what an asshat really looks like!”

        • OutOfOrbit

          i thought butt-head

    • The Librarian

      A real asshat, lol.

  • Spotts1701, Nothingburger Chef

    All-out brawl at homecoming game causes police to deploy pepper spray on players.

    Clark County School District police used pepper spray to break up a fight on the field between Canyon Springs and Basic football players after the Pioneers’ 20-15 victory over the Wolves on Friday night at Basic High School.

    The brunt of the spray was directed toward a group of Canyon Springs players and coaches, though at least one Basic staffer was targeted.

    Tensions on both teams escalated throughout the homecoming game.

    Referees assessed at least 35 penalties, most of which were after the play for personal fouls or unsportsmanlike conduct. Four Canyon Springs players were ejected in the second half, including star quarterback/running back DiaMante Burton.

    Pioneers and Wolves players started brawling immediately after the game near Basic’s sideline and fought for about 30 seconds before police intervened.

    • Rick Hill

      Take a look at this. And by this, I mean, not how we would look at it. we have a different set of life experiences and such than kids today. While some of them are raised kinder and with more experience, they also may have no viewpoint that this kind of thing is wrong. The protections of anyone tasked with keeping order and the rule of law being able to just start assaulting people with more violent and painful tactics from the get go(tasers, mace, etc) just so security guys don’t get spit on or punched in the jaw, or even(gasp) be called names and are not shown respect,

    • Suttree

      I would be glad if this might diminish high school football. People are crazy around that shit!

  • Lizzietish81

    So I was going to go to a street fair today, but I had a migraine, so I went back to bed, woke up and now I’m all discombobulated.

    • Resistance Fighter Astraea

      FUCK MIGRAINES

      • Lizzietish81

        I’ve heard that too, and it sometimes does work

    • Lord Jim

      Was it the migraine or the dadaist neogothic revival fiction that passes for current history? So hard to tell…

    • Suttree

      I must have sexually transmitted that virus to you.

  • Alexander Stallwitz

    I am looking to watching it, we as a nation need a clear headed, free of bias look at the Vietnam War. The Right I believe learned the wrong lessons and or refused to learn from Vietnam. Not that Vietnam was a terrible idea and never shouldnt have happened. Its more like “we would have won Vietnam but these Goddamn Hippies and the biased Media backstabbed out troops” whats very depressign is the Republican Party is in the middle of tryig to spin the Iraq war and shiftig the blame to Obama and the Democratic Party. They are Vietnamization Iraq as we speak

    • Dudleydidwrong

      Vietnam–our involvement–was a terrible idea and should never have happened. It wasn’t ours to win, lose, or learn from. It was the French Mistake and we made it ours:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMK6lzmSk2o

  • Panika MCD

    check in. are you wearing pants?

    • Bobathonic

      Only because I want to return to this restaurant.

      • Panika MCD

        there are other options.

    • Lizzietish81

      nope

    • Belasaurius

      nope

    • Persistent Tennessee Rain

      What are these “pants” of which you speak?

      • Panika MCD

        now there is the right answer, if I ever saw one!

    • Saxo the Grammarian

      No estoy usando pantalones.

    • Ms.MLG on Maui

      Yes, but to be fair, I was making BLTs, and bacon grease stings!

      • An Outhouse for the résistance

        That’s what aprons are for.

        • Ms.MLG on Maui

          Jonny will pass the fuck out if he sees me in an apron!

    • shivaskeeper

      I was in the shop for most of the day so yes. More is the pity.

      On the plus side, the trim work in the bedroom Mrs Keeper has been asking me to finish for something like two years is done.

    • Royal Ugly Globalist Dude

      Do leggings count?

      • Panika MCD

        am I Robyn?

    • natoslug

      Hells no.

    • Spotts1701, Nothingburger Chef

      Sweats. It’s a little too cool to be in me knickers.

    • An Outhouse for the résistance

      No. Its not winter yet.

  • Arolpin

    O/T. Last night I ended up meeting my wife’s cousin at the Beacon to see the Mavericks. (Her husband had to work, my sister-in-law backed out at the last minute, my wife didn’t want to go, so I was eventually asked). I have never seen the Mavericks live, but I listened to them a bit when they were first starting out, and here them on SiriusXM every now and then, but cousin-in-law’s friends are big fans and go every year, and I was kind of hoping to see them, so, I jumped at the chance.

    Musically, they are a mixture of southern rock & country, with a strong latin influence, mostly Mexican with the horns and stand-up bass, but then they would transition into Cuban folksongs or something. At no point did the band ever seem bored or confused or just playing out the string. At certain points I thought that this is just the worlds very best wedding band, because they played some semi-cheesy covers, but better than the original, and they were doing their best to ensure that everyone was dancing.

    The concert was very good, but never had that one moment in certain concerts where you realize you seeing something special. This was more a really good band, that has been playing live for most of the past 25 years, playing in one of their favorite venues, with an adoring crowd. There were several points where they got right up to the line between very good and incredible, especially a cover of All That Heaven WIll Allow, last song before the encores, first encore of Blowin’ in the Wind with the lead singer doing it with only voice and an acoustic guitar, and the jam at the end of the encores.

    The most striking thing about this show was the age of the fans. I’m late-40s, and I’m generally one of the older fans at most shows, but I was the punk kid at this one. I find that especially odd considering that this band didn’t form until the early ’90s, so some of these folks obviously found this band when they were in their 40s or 50s. Not only do they have this group of greybeards who see them on every tour, a lot of these guys are seeing them 3-4 nights in a row if they can make it work. I even had a great conversation with my cousin-in-law’s friend about how they almost got kicked out at the Count Basie last year for dancing, and the band stopped until the security backed off. The band ended up playing The Stone Pony this year instead because they won’t play at places that don’t let the fans dance. (Oddly enough it was my first time at the Beacon since I got kicked out for dancing at an Experience Hendrix show about 6 years so.)

    I was actually afraid it was going to be full of Trumpistas, because CIL’s friends included a couple of hardcore Trumpistas, but it’s a heavily latin-influenced band from Miami, they were playing in NYC, and the few political bits that I heard were obviously anti-Trump.

    I’m not sure I would go out of my way to see them again, but I certainly wouldn’t pass up tickets were they to fall into my hands. If they’re playing your local venue, definitely worth checking out, especially if you’re in the mood to dance.

    • Alternative Dog

      Saw them back in the early 90s (my wife was a country music fan) and I really enjoyed the show. One surprising feature was the opening act — Junior Brown. I don’t know how to classify his music except to say there was lots of subtle and not so subtle humor on top of what might sound like standard country fare. However, I think I might have been the only member of the audience who noticed that he was regularly quoting both Dick Dale and Jimmy Hendrix. The man played a mean guitar.

      • Arolpin

        I think I’ve seen Junior Brown, but at something other than a country show. Probably some Blues festival or something, but yeah, most people don’t quite pick up on what he’s doing.

  • Persistent Tennessee Rain

    I remember watching the returning POWs on television.

    • Bobathonic

      I remember body counts on the news.

  • Rick Hill

    Wait,…..sorry, not focused…..are we talking about how cool it is to kill people who aren’t us or who are somewhere where we won’t feel bad that they died horribly and before their time because…reasons?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX7V6FAoTLc

    • Persistent Tennessee Rain

      We are remembering how our government convinced us that an unjust war was somehow justified and how we sent our children out to fight said war

      • Rick Hill

        So….how cool it is to kill people who aren’t us or who are somewhere where we won’t feel bad that they died horribly and before their time because…reasons

        • Persistent Tennessee Rain

          I believe you just might be preaching to the choir. That’s my story and I’m not going to engage you

          • Rick Hill

            I wouldn’t accept anyway as I Am married…unless you are single, really cute and less than five miles away

          • Persistent Tennessee Rain

            That was stupid

          • Rick Hill

            So…ok, maybe if you are a little cute and ten miles away?

          • Persistent Tennessee Rain

            I’d offer you a shovel, but you seem to be digging that hole nicely without one

          • Rick Hill

            Well, somewhat cute, without an obvious sense of humor and fifty miles away? My final offer

          • Persistent Tennessee Rain

            Keep sexually harassing me. It’s turning me on

          • Rick Hill

            Oh, now you want it? Rick Hill may be cheap but he isn’t easy…..

          • Persistent Tennessee Rain

            No seriously. Stop it

      • The Militant Homosexual Agenda

        And we’ve now done that three times in my lifetime.

  • Alternative Dog

    OT — Nice time via The Bloggess:

    High school lets seniors go in costume for their IDs and it’s fantastic

  • Lyly Sirivong

    OT : Secret of Mana was remade for PS4. Bad news : it doesn’t look good. Good news : it seems you can now beat bosses without dying half a dozen times.
    https://youtu.be/ujF9CZJyshQ

    • Moebym of the Returners

      I probably died half a dozen times before the first boss, and even the Mantis Ant got me a few times.

      • Lyly Sirivong

        Yeah, it seemed like you couldn’t duck its attacks. As for the others, it was magic, magic, magic all the time.

  • mancityRed6

    seriously, wolf tracker, fuck your horses. I’m sorry that they have to depend on you since you are so infantile and idiotic.
    if you cannot come out and fight fair, then fuck your horses and fuck you.

  • Dept. of Space Tacos

    so if you see me and it doesn’t show the below, block it. It’ll help separate the real me and Wolf Tracker.
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/dff0b4ac44dec3882730ae4600a4c8ad355b6090d91d0318e6ab6d4f025560a7.png

    • Panika MCD

      I haven’t seen anyone else claiming to be you. am I missing something?

      • Jonny On Maui

        I just did, a 20 comment spanking new account as DoST. Gone before I could reply.

        • natoslug

          If someone’s still impersonating various commenters, Dok needs to ban him/her/it permanently. This shit is ridiculous.

          • Jonny On Maui

            I’m flagging every one I see

          • natoslug

            I just saw the dog. Flagged! He’s currently wearing a dragon costume for some reason.

          • Toomush_Inferesistance

            Is that possible?…

          • natoslug

            Well, not permanently — but they could do an IP block, which unfortunately would need to be updated every time the impersonator uses a new IP address (hello, VPN!), which would make it at least a little more inconvenient for the little shit.

    • shivaskeeper

      Is it back?

    • Rags

      Honestly, I fear for his neighbors.

    • jesterpunk

      I thought Dok banned them? Are they back?

      • Alan

        New account. Sigh. When I was a teenager I spent my weekends trying to get laid.

        • jesterpunk

          I was a nerd (and still am) I spent my weekend playing with my chemistry set, reading or fishing.All things that are a lot more interesting and more fun then trolling.

          • Alan

            Interesting. I was (still am) a math nerd but where I grew up that got you laid. Still does.