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These things really are stained

The National Cathedral in Washington DC has finally decided to remove two large stained glass windows paying homage to Stonewall Jackson and Robert E. Lee. The cathedral had initially decided last summer to take out two panes displaying the Confederate flag, a year after the 2015 murders of nine worshipers at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston. And now the cathedral’s leadership has finally voted, in the aftermath of Charlottesville, to take the windows down for good. They’re set to be taken down today and will be “cleaned, conserved, stored and potentially moved to another part of the church to be used in an educational setting unaffiliated with worship.”

Dame Peggy Noonan was so upset by this desecration of history at an Episcopalian cathedral that she was moved to Yiddish, naturally enough.

So hooray for Lee and Jackson (only one of whom actually died on the battlefield, if you want to nitpick) for their part in finally resolving the issue of slavery. Let’s just overlook the question of which side they were actually fighting on, because aren’t we all Americans? Again, if you want to get technical about it, those who fought and died on the Confederate side were damn dirty foreigners who had decided they were no longer Americans, even if the federal government never recognized the Confederacy’s legitimacy.

After her Wednesday-night tweets took both-siderism to a new weird level, Noonan returned to her complex thinkering about history this morning, even if the concept of Twitter threads escapes her (we’ve helpfully re-ordered her tweets in sequence):

Nihilists! Fuck me. Say what you will about the tenets of white supremacy, Peggy, but at least it’s an ethos. Noonan wants us to think about history, argue it out, contemplate it, and apparently all that should be done in a place where people go to worship the Prince of Peace. Putting the windows in a museum display — which so far is just an idea, not a certainty — would prevent that why, exactly? If you’re going to talk history, then great — get the full history of the windows in a museum display, and be very clear about the fact that these windows were donated to the National Cathedral in 1953 by the United Daughters of the Confederacy. Gee, was anything going on in 1953 that may have had a bearing on why the Daughters might have thought it especially important to venerate Confederate heroes and show them reading the Good Book (which does, after all, approve of slavery)?

Surely no one who read the Bible would fight for the wrong side
Surely no one who read the Bible would fight for the wrong side
In a museum setting, you could even look at how modern apologists for the Confederacy insist Stonewall Jackson was a “Soldier of the Cross” because he was super-faithy! As a history textbook for Christian eighth-graders explains, Jackson must must have been a great Christian since he attributed Confederate victories to God’s will, surely the first time anyone ever did that:

After the Second Battle of Manassas, an officer on the general’s staff said, “We have won this battle by the hardest kind of fighting.” Jackson disagreed: “No, No, we have won by the blessing of Almighty God.” After victory in the Battle of Port Republic during the Valley Campaign, Jackson turned to General Richard Ewell and said gently, “General, he who does not see the hand of God in this is blind, Sir, blind!”

Strangely, the textbook doesn’t hold up Nathan Bedford Forrest as a “Soldier of the Cross — the Burning One.”

Those discussions seem very much worth having, and Confederate kitsch like these stained glass windows would certainly be a valuable part of such discussions. How about we put them in a museum, where they really can be placed in context, instead of putting them in a place of honor, where there’s no reason to see them as anything but a monument to the Heroic Southern Cause? Nah, says Peggy, we can take care of that by adding a little plaque, maybe:

If you’re going to do it right, that’s gonna be one hell of a crowded cathedral — just when it comes to the stuff about the South’s “imperfect” attempts at reconciliation.

In other Peggy Noonan Has Thoughts About Religion news, the Pegster took some time away from defending the brave Confederates who took part in settling the question of slavery so that she could also defend poor oppressed Christians from their own majority, being thuddingly wrong about whether people of faith are being excluded from the judiciary. A Heritage Foundation legal analyst had tweeted about an article she’d written claiming that Dianne Feinstein and Dick Durbin were “hostile to religion” for asking a judicial nominee whether her conservative Catholic tenets would influence her judicial impartiality. Peggy was very, very sad to see two senators doing war against Catholicism:

Yr Editrix raised her hand and asked, Excuse me, what does God need with a judiciary?

Now, maybe the Pope will finally get recognition for ending slavery. And since Darth Vader has a grotesque at the cathedral, where’s the statuary honoring the Rebel Alliance, huh?

He finds her lack of faith disturbing

Yr Wonkette is supported by reader donations. Please click the “Donate” clicky and we’ll pray for you.

[Peggy Noonan on Twitter / NYT]

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  • TundraGrifter

    “They are us.”

    Speak for yourself, Bitch!

  • JMP

    Does Peggy think the US should also put up monuments honoring Nazi generals and war criminals too? How about erecting statues of Osama bin Laden and Mohammad Atta at the site of the former World Trade Center?

    • Zonath

      No, of course not. Those were foreigners, not Americastani traitors. Benedict Arnold, on the other hand…

      • therblig

        well, he’s got that egg thing named after him

        • orygone

          I thought it was named after cumberbatch

          • Three Finger Salute

            Pope Sherlock?

    • Belasaurius

      can I name a school after John Walker Lindh?

    • mardam422

      Teach the controversy!!!11

  • Panika MCD
  • CutterTeam

    I think we need to commission a statue of Peggy in a dunce cap. You know, so we don’t forget the history of this.

  • therblig

    once again, she has slipped the surly bonds of sobriety

  • laughingnome

    She’s full of crap that the war was not fought over territory. One of the big issues was whether new states would be slave or free. The south feared that as more free states were added their political might would be overtaken. Pure bullshite Peggs.

    • Three Finger Salute

      Gerrymandering on steroids.

  • JMP

    I like the idiocy of promoting the vile traitor Stonewall Jackson as an epitome of morality because he was a devout Christian. No, dumbasses, he fought for one of the most evil causes ever, he was morally awful, and proves that morality and religiosity have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with each other.

    • TundraGrifter

      I read a comment by our resident Confederate that Gens. Lee and Jackson “hated slavery.” If they did, they were certainly fighting on the wrong fucking side.

      • JMP

        Plus one would think they wouldn’t own slaves were that the case.

        • GoutMachine

          “You know, John, I really hate slavery, but do please get back in the cotton fields before I beat you senseless. Now I must go rape your wife. Really a shame about this slavery business, innit?”

    • GoutMachine

      But he said the magic words of “God Almighty,” ergo True Christian ™. It’s kind of the inverse of those other magic words, “radical Islamic terrorism.”

    • (((fka_donnie_d)))

      It never ceases to amaze, how all these people who hated slavery were so doggone eager to pick up guns and fight for it.

  • dslindc

    Dear Sister Peggy Nooningtonhamptonshireton,

    Stick to writing notes to Manuel to restock the gin.

    Warmest Drunken Regards,
    Me

  • Relativicus

    It’s a bit of a rough afternoon, but I became positively giddy at seeing a headline using the words “Peggy” and “Noonan” together (can you imagine?!?). I’m so giddy I came right down here where you dispose of all the unallowed comments so as to express my giddiness. Going back to read now.

    So giddy!!!

  • Belasaurius

    ” you can’t erase history, you must face it” Good idea, tell that to people who keep telling blacks to “get over”: slavery, neo-slavery, poll taxes, the Klan, systematic disenfranchisement, harsher penalties for blacks who commit the same crimes as white, etc. ad nauseum.

    • proudgrampa

      If you can’t face it, you must erase it?

      A Johnny Cochran-esque statement if I ever heard one…

  • laughingnome

    Why can’t she be a fun drunk?

    • Lascauxcaveman

      Yeah, she’s pretty whiny.

    • Eileen Besse

      ‘Cause she’s not a fun person at all.

    • Caepan

      Well, we do make fun of her…

      … that’s a kind of fun.

  • Cousin Itt un Mondialiste

    We faced history and it lost.

    Let me know when the National Cathedral installs a stained glass Swastika.

    • therblig

      i wouldn’t be surprised to learn that peggy has a beautifully restored Third Reich swizzle stick.

      • Three Finger Salute

        Fidget spinner

  • proudgrampa

    What is WRONG with that fucking woman?

    • Belasaurius

      how much time do you have?

  • TundraGrifter

    “Our most killing war ever. 600,000 died.”

    Since Robert Kennedy was gunned down in an LA hotel, more Americans have been killed by firearms than died in every war we have fought from the American Revolution to Afghanistan and Iraq.

  • mardam422

    Dame Noonington only wants to teach the controversy!! It is us! And it is U.S.!!

  • Mr. Blobfish
    • Cousin Itt un Mondialiste

      Burn, baby burn.

    • Gayer Than Thou

      True Hollywood fact: this was painted before the role of Scarlett had been cast.

      • grindstone

        When you realize that a., that’s not Vivienne Leigh in the carriage in those shots (the actress has her mantilla over her head), and b., the set itself is the set from Ben Hur, actually burning, it’s pretty fun. Once seen, you go, oh yeahhhh, that’s the coliseum!

    • Hurrah, hurrah! They bring the jubilee!

  • memzilla Ω

    The leaders of the South largely attempted reconciliation…

    . https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-28-2013/tpy8GR.gif

    • Cousin Itt un Mondialiste

      Cat 5 Bullshit

  • mardam422

    Speaking of reconciled, I have reconciled myself to the fact that Dame Peggington Noonington has lost her fucking mind.

    • OutOfOrbit

      bbooz can haz that affect

    • Uncle Mark

      If only Ms Noonan did lose her mind. Her pen & opinion are bought and paid for…much like her soul

    • Three Finger Salute

      Assumes mind already in existence.

  • CutterTeam

    Dearest Mother,

    I long for home on the eve of the Manassas battle. And although I know our cause is just, I cannot deny that — throughout these terrible months — there has been violence on many sides. On many, many sides. . .

    • ImGoingBacon

      Speaking of Man-asses, why would anybody fight for it once, much less twice?

      • Three Finger Salute

        Ben’s Ass! Dennis Ass Tart! FIND THE CONNECTIONS, SHEEPLE!

      • King Beauregard

        Second most homoerotic battle in history!

        The most homoerotic battle of all, of course, was the Battle of Salamis.

    • jesterpunk

      Most people don’t know the south had permits and General Sherman didn’t have a permit.

  • mardam422

    What does this have to do with Ronald Reagan’s feet?

    • ImGoingBacon

      What does this have to do with Ronald Reagan’s feet ass?
      FTFY

  • CindyinEncinitas

    OT: This is my cousin. She’s a beautiful, accomplished, sweet woman who deserves all the love and respect in the world.
    http://www.rawstory.com/2017/09/youre-speaking-immigrant-oklahoma-man-goes-berserk-rant-caught-on-video-by-hispanic-woman/?comments=disqus

    • GoutMachine

      Wow, that guy looks like such a specimen of the Master Race!

      • CindyinEncinitas

        20 of him could not equal a small portion of Maty and what she has done and meant to her community. It’s incredible to me that anybody would be mean to her. This is the essence of racism.

    • (((fka_donnie_d)))

      “We speak English” Facts not in evidence

      • PubOption

        And a significant number of Oklahoma residents would consider that to be ‘immigrant’.

    • Three Finger Salute

      You must be proud, Cindy! Yay for your cousin!

    • JustPixelz (((Ω)))

      If she used a tenth fourth grade vocabulary, he’d have probably reacted the same way.

    • Red Bird

      He should have been arrested but….GTBW.

  • (((fka_donnie_d)))

    No, Peggy, they are not “us”. They are “you”.

    It is not the case that lefties have no “them”, “those people”, or especially “you people”. The difference between “us” and “you” is that to become part of “you”, you must actually do some heinous shit.

  • Jamoche

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2017/09/06/octavius-catto/
    Philadelphia gets its first public statue of a black man, and he’s pretty damn awesome:

    Catto (1839-1871) was an ordained Presbyterian minister. He assisted Frederick Douglass’ efforts to recruit black soldiers for the Civil War. After the war, he fought to ensure the ratification — and the reality — of the 15th Amendment in Pennsylvania. Catto used civil disobedience tactics to desegregate Philly’s public street cars in 1867. He also became the first black person to join Philadelphia’s Franklin Institute.

  • mardam422

    The American colonies were split between loyalists and rebels. After the war they all reconciled. Somehow the loyalists never wanted to put up statues of Gage and Howe. I has a not understand. Maybe Dame Nooners can splain it to me.

  • Spotts1701, Nothingburger Chef

    Abraham Simpson makes more sense, and he gets his history lessons from the backs of sugar packets.

    • Bub, the cynical zombie

      Peggy might make a little bit more sense if she laid off the gin for a couple of weeks. And tied an onion to her belt.

    • Maybe we should give Peggy more time to read things she finds on the ground?

  • ariel_gee_398

    Sigh. After WWII, the Germans largely attempted reconciliation. After the Civil War, the South looked for ways short of actual bondage to keep black Americans subjugated, and the North looked for ways to make them not feel too bad about being racists. But that’s probably just a quibble on my part.

    • Covfefe

      Betsy DeVos. Looking for ways. Who needs public schools? Federal funds for private schools. Christian schools.

      • GoutMachine

        Can’t wait for my madrasa to get some funding! Oh. Wait.

      • Three Finger Salute

        But only Supply-Side Hitler Jesus, not commie Jimmy Carter Jesus.

    • Mr. Blobfish

      Let us continue crapping on the former slave or we will make your lives a living hell. They did both.

  • Crystalclear12
    • Marion in Savannah

      My favorite comment on that, from “NYJD21:”

      “I’m drinking to this…every pour of every ounce during Friday happy hour. Oh man….

      Signed,
      An Immigration Attorney”

  • Uncle Mark

    Oh, for the love of those who embrace god & truth in their cathedrals (like Peggy), where are the stained glass windows of those in chains, those families broken apart & sold at the auction block, those raped or killed for their master’s pleasure, or those who died to free god’s other children? Why does Peggy hate history so much?

    • Three Finger Salute

      I’m not a religious person but this is why Josh Groban’s version of O Holy Night is my favorite. He sings the second verse, which goes “Chains shall he break, for the slave is our brother / And in his name, all oppression shall cease.”

      Communist Trudeau-lookalike balladeer is waging a war on Murican Christmas!!!

    • Boscoe

      Why, THAT would be RACIST and DIVISIVE!

      • Uncle Mark

        Sadly, I could hear the echos of “white shaming,” “cuck,” and “reverse discrimination” if such windows went up

        • Boscoe

          Truth.

  • BadKitty904

    OT:

    Hurricane Irma 2 p.m. update: Storm surge could be 10 feet if storm hits South Florida at high tide

    • Belasaurius

      is it still aiming for Trump properties?

      • GoutMachine

        This is like when I see someone texting while driving – I hope they get in a wreck and hurt only themselves. I really wish this storm could localize on just Mar a Lago or Margarine or whatever the fuck it’s called.

        • therblig

          Merde-A-Lago

          • Jeffery Campbell

            Mar-a-Loogie.

          • Serai 1

            Mierda Lago

            Literally “shit lake” in Spanish.

      • BadKitty904

        One can only hope…

    • PubOption

      And some of the islands in the keys don’t reach 10 feet above sea level.

      • BadKitty904

        You begin to see the issue here…

  • proudgrampa

    WHY does the Journal pay this idiot?

    • Jgb979

      It’s not so much “pay” as it is a monthly gin and klonopin stipend

    • Uncle Mark

      Are we certain that it’s JUST the Journal paying her? I have my doubts

    • marxalot

      To keep her from becoming a public charge?

  • Jgb979

    So weird how we haven’t just reconciled with American Revolution history and put up 5,000 statues of Cornwallis and Benedict Arnold…..

    (Have a soft spot for Dame Peggington, unlike the sociopaths currently in charge of Republican thought, I think she’s just a big dum dum who has no idea what she’s talking about)

    ((It was the dame Peggs articles that sold me on this site years ago))

    • Mr. Blobfish

      Conservative like to fancy themselves as would be Revolutionary soldiers, but they all would have been loyalists.

    • Three Finger Salute

      We don’t handle “losing” very well. The fucking national anthem is a war porn hymn about a war we fucking lost to Canada. Even minus the racism, I don’t blame Kaepernick for not saluting it. It’s a dumb pick for an anthem. Might as well salute “Country Joe’s Think I’m Fixin’ to Die Rag”.

  • Skwerl the Nazi Puncher
    • Three Finger Salute

      “Excuse us, do you have a minute to talk about our lord and savior, Donald J. Hitler?”

  • onedollarjuana

    A grammatical question: Noonan was having trouble with the /2 and /3, so when she wrote /11? was she unsure if she needed it, or unsure of its placement, or something else?

    • ariel_gee_398

      Gin.

      • DainBramage

        Beat me to it.

    • tomamitai

      Too drunk to count her toes?

    • Three Finger Salute

      Worst fraction lesson ever.

  • Bananas Foster

    “Most killing.”

    Did somebody ban “deadliest” when I was sleeping (it off)?

  • marxalot

    Having made myself something of an expert on Stonewall Jackson at the age of 10 (look, I was bored and had a highschool reading level), I have spent a great deal of effort forgetting most of the things I know about him, but one fact remains.
    He was stone. Cold. Crazy.
    “Jesus crazy” is still “crazy,” y’all.

  • Three Finger Salute

    Lee was a member of the Rebel Alliance and therefore a traitor.

  • Boscoe

    Sigh. The thing these morans STILL haven’t figured out: THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN COMMEMORATING A HORRIFIC EVENT SO WE NEVER FORGET AND GLORIFYING THE PERPETRATORS OF SAID HORRIFIC EVENT AS IF THEY WERE HEROES!!!!1!11!1!1!!eleventyFUCK

    • marxalot

      The difference between Bitburg and Auschwitz, if you will.

  • Persistent Tennessee Rain

    Confederates settled the issue of slavery the same way Hair Fury settled the issue of Obama’s place of birth.

  • gratuitous

    Look, we can argue all day long about who fought for which side, and who owned slaves and who didn’t. But the fact of the matter is that Peggy Noonan is darned mad, too! So let’s just say everyone was wrong, and leave things as they are. If you correct a mistake, or take out a stained glass window that was installed a mere 90 years after Appomattox, you’re denying history! And if you deny history, you might as well deny . . . the United States of America! (Begin humming “The Battle Hymn of the Republic” here, as you read on.) Well, Peggy Noonan, for one, is not going to just sit idly by downing cosmopolitan after cosmopolitan and listen to you lot bad-mouth the United States! Everyone join Peggy in her alcohol-besotted recitation of history as she transforms traitors into patriots, like Jesus transforming water into wine. Mmmmm, wine.

    • Jgb979

      I for one would never learned about WW2 had they taken down the famed “garden of Hitler statues” at Auchwitz

      • GoutMachine

        You know, there was a lot of killing by both sides in WW2.

        • Belasaurius

          by good people, on both sides

        • Raan

          Hitler might have killed millions, but Patton slapped a dude so Both Sides.

        • Les Appentis De la résistance

          Many sides.

    • Spotts1701, Nothingburger Chef

      “You’re not walking out of this one, mister!”

  • Crystalclear12

    The Keith Richards of conservative journalism would like you to consider her pickled point of view

  • Msgr_MΩment

    They were figures in the greatest, most killing moral struggle in US history.

    Make
    Moral
    Struggles
    Great
    Again!

  • Bitter Scribe

    “Kids–all of us–need more to look up to.”

    “All of us” presumably includes black kids, right? I can’t wait to hear how they’re supposed to “look up to” someone who fought to keep treating their ancestors like cattle.

    • Boscoe

      I would love to see how all the “preserve our history” people would react to a statue of Lincoln with his hand outstretched to a black man in chains walking toward him to freedom across a pile of dead confederate soldiers…

      • Belasaurius

        I’d settle for a statue of Hiram Revels, first black Senator.

      • Belasaurius

        anyone else find that image fapable?

      • Three Finger Salute

        Frank Capra, that communist race traitor.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqbl-olEMrY

        This film was released in 1939, before we went to war against a genocidal racist for no other reason than to crush the competition.

      • therblig

        i’d have to see a jon mcnaughton workup first

    • altleftjohn

      Too bad white kids are being denied exposure to examples of great accomplishments by white people. Did you know that Abraham Lincoln was white?

      • Three Finger Salute

        And a Republican. Many, many people on many, many sides don’t know that. Great guy. People are gonna be talking a lot about him.

      • Bitter Scribe

        And a Republican?

  • OrG

    Has Peggy added sniffing glue to the gin and tonics?

  • Bub, the cynical zombie

    Remember a couple of weeks ago when Peggy sobered up and wrote a column excoriating Trump? Looks like she fell off the wagon again.

    • JustPixelz (((Ω)))

      Fell off into a steaming pile of derp.

  • Uncle Mark
  • altleftjohn

    “Founders, etc.” ?!?!!! Th’ FUUUCK?

    Lee and Jackson were tying to found a country to insure the perpetuation of slavery.

    • PubOption

      The only founder among the Founders was Thomas Payne.

  • Whollyholeyholy

    Last week when one of my county council members said most people don’t know that Gettysburg was a battlefield (our county borders the county in PA where Gettysburg is…not that it really matters, because who above 6th grade doesn’t know this?!!) and just think it is a nice drive through a park, I looked at the Gettysburg address. That part about, “We have come to dedicate a portion of that field as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live,” sticks out, because not all of them died that way. Some of them died trying to kill it. Why is that hard to understand?

    • Latverian Diplomat

      FWIW, Gettysburg National Cemetery is almost entirely for Union dead. There are only a few Confederates buried there. So Lincoln’s remark was basically accurate.

      Confederate burials did not receive placement in the national cemetery. Efforts in the 1870s by Southern veterans’ societies eventually relocated 3,200 Confederate remains to cemeteries in Virginia, Georgia, and the Carolinas, such as Hollywood Cemetery in Richmond, Virginia. A few Confederates do remain interred at Gettysburg National Cemetery.

      https://www.nps.gov/nr/travel/national_cemeteries/pennsylvania/gettysburg_national_cemetery.html

      • Whollyholeyholy

        I’m not questioning Lincoln–I’m confused by those who don’t understand that everyone involved wasn’t a hero worthy of public esteem.

    • Tony Prost

      “We are met on a great battlefield of that war!”

      • Whollyholeyholy

        Well, maybe the most special part is that you really can’t miss the cannons and statuary if you are taking a “nice drive through the park.”

    • jackie jones

      Who the HELL doesn’t know Gettysburg was a battlefield?

      • Daniel

        I don’t. I’ve never seen it as a statue, so I have practically no idea what it is or what the name even means.

        • therblig

          sorry, there’s no name, i just have an address.

        • jackie jones

          LOL! If a statue falls in the Nathan Bedford Forest…

      • Whollyholeyholy

        Apparently a man named Billy Shreve. I’m assuming this “most people don’t know” works for him the same way it does for L. Don Trumpard.

  • JustPixelz (((Ω)))

    Has she come out in support of statues for 9/11 hijackers? So we’ll never forget.

    • Three Finger Salute

      Might as well just replace the statue of Saddam, then.

  • Latverian Diplomat

    Remember how much conservatives talked about “providing context” and “telling the full story” about these monuments before we started taking them down?

    Yeah, me neither.

  • Mr. Blobfish

    Hurrah! Hurrah! we bring the jubilee!
    Hurrah! Hurrah! the flag that makes you free!
    So we sang the chorus from Atlanta to the sea
    While we were marching through Georgia.

    • Dudleydidwrong

      Next up? March–Part 2–led by General Irma.

      • marxalot

        And it’ll do the same thing: devastate the land, ruin the poor, kill women and children, and leave the ruins and spoils for the already rich to exploit.
        -War Crimes Are Still Crimes Even If They Make You Feel Superior

  • Les Appentis De la résistance

    We need more statues — of big black guys.

    and Harriet Tubman on the $20.

    Then we can have a conversation using our civilized, inside voices.

    • Three Finger Salute
      • MrTusks

        Canada is the dorky kid we picked on in grade school who turned out to be hot and successful while we peaked at varsity football and have a hard time holding down an auto mechanic job.

  • Latverian Diplomat

    “Lord, why didn’t you tell me slavery was wrong.”

    “Well, I thought getting you shot by your own men was a hint.”

  • Lyly Sirivong
  • lucidamente

    Maybe Dianne Feinstein can tell her how to spell “shanda.”

    • ariel_gee_398

      She doesn’t twitter good. Maybe she was trying to @ Shonda Rhimes? You know, for the black perspective.

    • Three Finger Salute

      It Rhimes with Shonda.

    • HogeyeGrex

      She needs some help with the concept as well.
      Celebrating treason, murder, and slavery is the shanda, Pegs.

  • Gayer Than Thou

    If we put these two stained glass windows in a museum, then we can go to the museum and reflect on the motivations of the people who put them in a church. Which would be the interaction with history that she apparently intends. If we leave them in the church, then when Prayer Americans go there, they can reflect on how that particular church (our National Cathedral, but whatever) thinks that these guys are basically the moral equivalents of Jesus. Those things seem different, but then I have almost certainly not had as much gin as Peggy has.

    • Boscoe

      NO ONE has. No one has.

  • Uncle Mark

    Is Peggy saying that a religious institution is NOT allowed to remove those features of their church that they find morally conflicting or repugnant? Is Peggy advocating that some other organization (perhaps the gov’t) intervene?

  • goonemeritus

    I am pleased to hear the former Confederate States have finally “Reconciled”. I must admit this is the first I am hearing this welcome news. It must have happened this weekend, I was busy with a lot of yard work so I wasn’t paying attention.

  • Robbertjan Brandenburg

    OT but i just learned my new job got retracted and now the company wants me to apply tomorrow for a temporary opening for 4 months. Any tips not to smell like alot of alcohol tomorrow and calling them assholes would be appreciated.

    • marxalot

      Shower?

      • Robbertjan Brandenburg

        Now the not calling them assholes after they offered the job and me telling other employers I got hitched already.

        • janecita

          Bite your tongue?

          • Robbertjan Brandenburg

            I just went beserk to both the recruiter and my brother and now that is what I have to do. But If they ask me why I want the job I am going fire and fury.

          • janecita

            What did your bother do?

          • Robbertjan Brandenburg

            Nothing but he was my rock in hazardous waters.

          • Robbertjan Brandenburg

            So it was just ventilating.

          • janecita

            Venting.

          • Robbertjan Brandenburg

            Thanks. :)

        • Crystalclear12

          Work on your budget before going. Poverty has a way of binding the tongue.

        • Lascauxcaveman

          Sounds like a wonderful way to begin a working relationship with this outfit.

          • Robbertjan Brandenburg

            It does doesn’t it?

    • Cousin Itt un Mondialiste

      From “Generations”. I know it’s not a fave of many Trekkies but it is of mine.
      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ab69dccead467cbbcac77658db5b43adf73a0e6c250633c8406244cb92003ea6.gif

    • Shanzgood

      See if the other employers still have offers open? If they do, you can tell the retracted-job people to pound sand with their 4-month deal.

    • SomeBigRedDog

      Wait a sec. You’re not a fascist sheriff bucking for a job at the White House are you? ARE YOU?

      If not sorry, and I find lots of gum helps with the hangover breath.

    • TJ Barke

      Smoke weed instead?

  • BigCSouthside

    Whenever we take this things down we need to air drop leaflets in the area or something, explaining that:
    1. The civil war was about “states rights”. State’s rights to own humans, buy, sell, and torture them.
    2. The “great generals” in this monument committed no bullshit full on treason, because they wanted to keep owning people.
    3. This is not a monument to southern heritage, because you are an American that lives in the southern part of the country, and at no point was the confederacy America.
    4. Oh by the way. The “great general” memorialized here was a fucking loser, who lost.
    5. Your great great great grand pappy that fought in Lee’s army was likely a poor penniless, landless sucker barely socially above a slave who got conned by a rich guy to go fight and die so he could stay rich.
    6. That rich con man may just have been the guy in the Statue here
    7. If you are mad about this, think long and hard about why you worship treasonous losers who conned your kin.

    • NastyBossetti

      Maybe we should just airdrop these leaflets now, and not wait until the statues are coming down.

      • GoutMachine

        Might need to be in pictographs or somesuch. I’m not sure these people can read.

    • MrTusks

      Don’t worry, honey, if we take down the statue people will still remember that you lost.

  • ImGoingBacon

    “We have won this battle by the hardest kind of fighting.” Jackson disagreed: “No, No, we have won by the blessing of Almighty God.”
    God, upon hearing such blasphemous words, sent a reminder to Jackson about taking the Lord’s name in vain, by unleashing General Sherman..

    • Crystalclear12

      Unleash the Sherman!!
      Meh, it’s no Kraken but it’ll do.

    • WeaselPoo

      Ironically Sherman’s burning of Atlanta was unwittingly and perversely memorialized in the Sherman tank of WW II as it was dubbed “The Tommy Cooker” because it would burst into flames so easily in combat ( The brits used a bunch of these tanks hence the “Tommy” part. For the americans it was also nicknamed “the Ronson Lighter”.

  • Crystalclear12

    The Egyptians and the Romans were right.
    Some things are best forgotten.

  • lucidamente

    Anybody watching Trump say things through his mouth hole at his presser?

    • Boscoe

      Nah, I can only endure Drumpf’s wretched gurgling through the filter of other people mocking him.

      • JustPixelz (((Ω)))

        Colbert and Myers and Noah are my heroes.

        • Cousin Itt un Mondialiste

          And Sam Bee, even though she is like, Canadian.

          • lucidamente

            And John Oliver, even though he talks funny.

          • Three Finger Salute

            “Bite me Trump, ya wanker. Nothing but rubbish and bollocks.”

            He could be the third Oasis brother, who doesn’t want anything to do with either of them.

          • Daniel

            There is a third Oasis brother, his name is Paul.
            John Oliver is not from Manchester, nor close. He’s from Birmingham and his accent is nothing like ours.

          • Three Finger Salute

            Oh, we Merkins think all y’all English sound alike.

          • Ah, spoken like someone who has never heard TOWIE

          • JustPixelz (((Ω)))

            What happened to her? Nothing new on youtube for a long time.

          • lucidamente

            Returns 9/13.

          • Cousin Itt un Mondialiste

            August hiatus. Like those commie Europeans.

          • Three Finger Salute

            That makes her even better. Dunno why she wants to even stay here at all, instead of return home to Disneyland North. But, I applaud her for getting down and dirty in the the trenches of the ideas war.

        • Three Finger Salute

          I dunno about Seth, he lost some points for shitting all over Hillary.

          • JustPixelz (((Ω)))

            I heard about that. He will get a few “go fuck yourself”s from me. I blame Bernie too. For someone who refused to join the Democratic Party or say the words “I am a Democrat”, he’s got a lot of chootzpah to complain about losing the Democratic primary.

          • Persistent Demme

            I can’t watch that.
            I have a sadz.
            No, Seth.
            Say it isn’t so…

          • Serai 1

            Yeah, I’m pretty pissed about that, myself.

    • Spotts1701, Nothingburger Chef

      I tried once. Then I smelled something burning and the next thing I knew I was laying on the ground in an Atlantic City alleyway.

    • SayItWithWookies

      That reminds me — I have to clean the litterboxes.

  • Jeffery Campbell

    The “Onward Christian Soldiers” defense. It’s my favorite. How I look forward to the drunken ravings of Lady Boozehound of the Boodles.

  • FauxAntocles

    What the “heritage” people remember is that the war was fought for a noble cause – raising statues to that lie only perpetuates it.

  • Latverian Diplomat

    So, what are we replacing these with? I hope they’ve told Trump they don’t have enough orange stained glass to commemorate the largest inaugural crowd in history.

  • SayItWithWookies

    When my fair city replaces its memorial to Jefferson Fucking Davis (consisting of the idiot’s statue accompanied by a tall Ionic column surrounded by a ring of columns in a traffic circle) and replaces it with, say, one to Nat Turner, I wonder if Peggy would want Davis replaced there, or if we could use the Nat Turner sculpture and educate people about how this was the spot that this controversy was resolved in this particular way?

    • Latverian Diplomat

      Could they just replace them with Ironic Columns?

      • SayItWithWookies

        I dunno — if they haven’t gotten it by now, they’re not going to.

  • Bananas Foster

    But, seriously, can someone explain the “most killing” thing to me? Is this part of the American vernacular that I’m just not aware of?

    • Wild Cat

      That drunkspeak for “Most war casualties in our history.”

      • Bananas Foster

        Ok, I’m not crazy.

        Well…

        • Wild Cat

          Ms. Noonan still thinks her cocktail-mixing guide is a dictionary.

      • Daniel

        I know this is being pedantic of me, but why she thinks that makes a point, I don’t really know. Of course your civil war was the one that killed the greatest number of your people. It was your people killing your people- that’s what a fucking civil war is.

        • Wild Cat

          We on the rational side of humanity in the US have no idea how those on the irrational side of US history twat out their tweets . . .

    • natoslug

      Sobriety is not her native tongue. I’m glad that she re-typed the original “killinger-est” and went with “most killing.”

    • Mr. Blobfish

      Great horny toads, varmint. It was the roughest, toughest, rootinest, shootinest war that ever were.

    • HogeyeGrex

      And this is a person who is paid, and paid well, as a wordsmith.

      Jesus wept.

  • Wild Cat

    I’m waiting for a statue to be erected in Columbus Circle for Rudolph “Rudy” Giuliani so that I can have the pleasure of toppling it . . .

    • theblackdog

      You’ll have to get behind the long line of people who are gonna want to pee on it first.

      • Wild Cat

        Good. He’s lost 21 of 22 First Amendment cases. He’ll lose the peeing case too.

    • Mr. Blobfish

      One million pigeons agree.

    • MrTusks

      RUDOLPH GIULIANI
      MAYOR OF NEW YORK

      He was there that day.

  • Zonath

    I don’t think we’re arguing that we should be erasing history, Peggy. I just think we’re arguing that certain figures in history shouldn’t be made into literal objects of veneration, Peggy. I’m all for exposing kids to history and letting them make their own conclusions about it, but doesn’t erecting monuments to a nation of traitors and their heroes and literally flying their flag everywhere tend to inculcate (look it up, Peggy, when you aren’t in your cups) a certain point of view amongst residents of certain areas where these objects of veneration are more common?

  • mrFawkes

    It appears, Gineral Noonan has invaded and occupied the Isle of Tanqueray.

    • ManchuCandidate

      Don’t tonic everyone.

      • mrFawkes

        She’s holding two limes hostage.

    • OrdinaryJoe

      Old VirGin-y

  • ManchuCandidate

    Have a rock throwing contest. About all those windows deserve.

  • jesuswasablack

    Isn’t having a discussion utilizing 15 fucking tweets sort of defeating the purpose of twitter? All of these confederate symbol huggers are the same, white supremacists hiding in plain site, winking at the statues and flags of intimidation. If we as a society decide that displaying symbols of racism is wrong these racists will have to go back under the hood where they belong!

    https://media.salon.com/2016/11/white_rally-620×412.jpg

    • Three Finger Salute

      Twitter doesn’t have a purpose.

    • Mr. Blobfish

      Has anyone ever confirmed if white tank top is a man or woman?

      • jesuswasablack

        I’m not sure it is human?

      • jodyleek

        Do slime molds have genders?

      • Bub, the cynical zombie

        I’M not fuckin’ checking!!

      • jodyleek

        I’m still not convinced that it’s wearing a shirt. That could be tan lines. The nipples could be underneath…somewhere. Shudder!

      • HogeyeGrex

        Why would anyone care?

      • IdRatherBeDancing

        C’mon – that is a smokin hot, delicious babe of the female persuasion! You fucking libtards are so cosmopolitan and metrosexual that you have lost the ability to sniff out one super fine vagina!

    • Bub, the cynical zombie

      The “Master Race.”

      Jesus wept.

      • MrTusks

        On the other hand, I have to admire that assertive and precise bird-flipping. Game recognize game.

        • NastyBossetti

          My own bird-flipping looks so soft and gentle by comparison.

    • MrTusks

      Oh yeah, these are the guys who will be leading…someone…to victory in Civil War II.

    • IdRatherBeDancing

      Now that’s a good looking group of supreme white folk. Just looking at their Adonis-like whiteness makes me feel inferior. The flags are just the extra coda to all that supremacy! Amirite?

  • janecita

    God wasn’t down with slavery, that’s probably why he liked Joseph Hooker way better than Stonewall Jackson, even though “Fighting Joe,” was a hard drinking, womanizer, that didn’t thank God after every victory.

  • Bub, the cynical zombie
    • ManchuCandidate

      Ha. She drinks alone at home. No filthy poors touching her booze. I would not be surprised if the maid or butler aren’t allowed to make her drinks.

    • Three Finger Salute

      Dihydrogen monoxide!!!!11! IT’S IN THE CHEMTRAILS!!!!

    • Gayer Than Thou

      Totally stealing “H20 croutons.”

  • TJ Barke

    History’s still in the books, peggy. Confederates were traitors that wanted to own people. They deserve exactly 0 statues or memorials except to denote how awful they were.

  • Daniel

    I struggle to imagine the logistics of history lessons in US schools. Do all children have their own statues, or is there just one per class for each person studied? If there’s a class on a particular battle, do you have statues of all the protagonists or just one or two? Before internet statues became a thing did you have to wheel your statues home to do homework?

    • Three Finger Salute

      Simple answer: We don’t have history class in U.S. schools. We don’t have science either. We have rote memorization of the year Columbus sailed the ocean blue, and “teaching the controversy” about why God never made a man out of a monkey. You must be Canadian, where they have a teacher as the head of government and don’t gloss over the uglier facts of their history.

      • Daniel

        I’m English, where we have a party dedicated to celebrating the shittest parts of our history as though they were glorious, and every one is still clinging onto that war we won to prove we’re great.

        • Three Finger Salute

          Hm, let me guess. The conservatives. Same as in Canada, where the Harpercon crappers dismissed Indigenous concerns as “virtue signaling.”

      • Dudleydidwrong

        I disagree, but this isn’t the place to argue the point. When I was in high school in the early 1950s history classes were that way, pretty much. But things have changed drastically.

        Are there still courses like you describe? Probably. My experience is that they are fewer and fewer each year. I hope I’m right.

  • Mr. Blobfish

    Delete your account, Nooners.

    • Three Finger Salute

      Delete Peggy’s account, Twitter.

      Still waiting.

  • Anna Rompage

    It’s kind of funny how Germany can have memorials that show the misguided atrocities of the Nazis, without having to glorify them, and white wash their history…

    • Bub, the cynical zombie

      Don’t see a lot of pickup trucks with swastika flags flying driving around Germany to “commemorate” their history.

      • Courser_Resistance

        Well, no. I think the swastika symbol is outlawed in most of Europe. Because they’re mostly sane.

        • Bub, the cynical zombie

          Exactly.

  • theblackdog

    Do people go to a place like the National Cathedral to face and discuss history? Fuck no.

    • Beanz&Berryz

      Well, not civil war history for damn sure…

  • Red Bird

    If the purpose of those stupid confederate statues is to recognize the civil war, why are there more statues honoring the confederate soldiers than the union soldiers? The losing side does not deserve to be remembered to the extent that they have been. Especially in the very country they tried to destroy for the specific purpose of holding people as property. And for her to just brush it off as a simple debate is disrespectful to the very people who’s lives were being fought over. It wasn’t a case of an 85 year old disagreement, it was the four century theft of an one race’s humanity for the purpose of enriching another race. Peggy can think the way she does because she has only known white privilege and has no fear of living in a world where she will be abused like that. If the tables were turned, I’m certain she would advocate not just removing the statues but erecting new ones to honor the slaves and their descendants. Peggy need to sit down and shut up.

  • bbayliss

    “Leave history alone.” says the lady who added “shining” to Winthrop’s
    “city on a hill”, because she could.

    • anon_the_great

      Nice catch from history. She IS a lyin so-and-so isn’t she?

    • Three Finger Salute

      Reagan turned it into a shining turd on a hill.

    • Latverian Diplomat

      Well, technically, Winthrop swiped it from Jeebus.

  • jodyleek

    No, Peggy, you imbecile, they did not “RESOLVE” it. They didn’t sit around a conference room table and agree that slavery was bad and then went out to Applebee’s for lunch. Talk about forgetting history.

    • ManchuCandidate

      Only by resolving she means at bayonet point. And by Applebys she means surrender because they fucking lost.

    • Latverian Diplomat

      “Lee stiffed us on the tip, again.”

      • AnnieGetYerFun

        “That fucking settles it. Sherman – you know what to do.”

  • Donkey Option

    Wow. I mean, it sure would have been tragic if all those brave soldiers and leaders of the confederacy had just said “hey, I’m not going to fight and die to preserve slavery” and just let slavery be abolished through law. Then we wouldn’t have all these heroes to have statues of.

  • Joshua Norton

    Manuel! Fetch my twittering machine and a pitcher of Manhattans! I must create!
    .
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/0320b2da848097fd9e7dfff4bf933fa3e46ba70ac08d23ed8ea223e2aef01659.jpg

    • Wild Cat

      “Great Delirium Tremens”

      • Three Finger Salute

        President Delirium J. Tremens.

        • grindstone

          stolen

    • IdRatherBeDancing

      Miss Havisham libelz!!!

  • jesuswasablack

    “They didn’t tweet they took to the field and died”
    So she says this on twitter?

    • Daniel

      And I bet a bunch of them stopped mid battle to telegraph selfies as well.

    • Latverian Diplomat

      Mine eyes have seen the glory of the tweeting of the Lord
      He is booting up the server where the memes of wrath are stored
      He hath loosed the fateful scolding of his blog commenting horde
      His Truth is Marching on

  • jackie jones

    Is the world comprised of TWITS now? Must we have to read everything like fortune cookies? And she gets paid for this drivel!

    • Three Finger Salute

      Well, it is called Twitter. Teh Interwebs was a mistake.

    • chazmanr

      Have you read a fortune cookie lately? They kinda suck too.

  • Randy Riddle

    Peggy can just STFU – the National Cathedral’s got that nice window with the moon rock in it. They don’t need no loser Confederate racists in stained glass sullying it.

  • C4TWOMAN

    This woman has never learned the first rule of holes….

    • Daniel

      Put a statue in them.

  • Saxo the Grammarian

    Yeah, and Hitler played a part in resolving the “Jewish problem”. I can do the same logic as you, Peggy!

  • T Kevin

    Manuel needs to step in and take away her gin and her computer.

    • chazmanr

      He was fired…again.

      • CindyinEncinitas

        He’ll be back.

    • janecita

      God, I fucking miss Manuel!

    • ZangoCrudmonger

      Que?

  • arglebargle

    Mebby we should erect a statue of Osama bin Laden since that’s a part of our history.

    • jesuswasablack

      The problem with that is that Bin Laden wasn’t on the same side as Noonan, so she would most likely object?

      • arglebargle

        He was a teetotaler too, one must assume since Muslim, so she definitely would not want.

  • jesterpunk
  • Gee, Your Hair Smells Horrific

    SURE SURE, REMOVE THEM, BUT WHERE DOES IT STOP??? ARE WE GOING TO REMOVE ALL THE STAINED GLASS WINDOWS OF JUDAS??
    GET A LIVE, PEOPLE

  • Bananas Foster
  • Persistent Demme

    Is it still ” a shonda” today Peggy?

  • Elvis Causticfellow

    Someone in Nooner’s comments made the relevant comparison to Benedict Arnold, who was a distinguished general with notable successes in the Revolutionary War. But he was a traitor to his country, which is why we don’t erect statues in his honor.

    • Professor Fate

      There is a statue to his boot at Saratoga – he was badly wounded in the leg and foot there fighting the British. Still it doesn’t mention his name.

  • Bright Bart

    History is written by the winners.

    • arglebargle

      The history of the South is written by the whiners.

      • Three Finger Salute

        So much whining. I’m tired of all this whining.

        • jesterpunk

          “We’re going to whine. We’re going to whine so much. We’re going to whine at trade, we’re going to whine at the border. We’re going to whine so much, you’re going to be so sick and tired of whining, you’re going to come to me and go ‘Please, please, we can’t whine anymore.’ You’ve heard this one. You’ll say ‘Please, Mr. President, we beg you sir, we don’t want to whine anymore. It’s too much. It’s not fair to everybody else.’” Trump said. “And I’m going to say ‘I’m sorry, but we’re going to keep whining, whining whining, We’re going to make America groan again.”

  • ZangoCrudmonger
  • Bub, the cynical zombie
    • IdRatherBeDancing

      Must follow!

  • PixieThis

    Dear 8 lb. 11 oz. baby jesus, with your 10 little toes and ten little fingers all curled up…please bless the poor and people suffering from the hurricanes and disasters around the world. And please smite %R$#%Q idiots like noonan. MKTHX!

    NOBODY IS TRYING TO FORGET HISTORY, PEGGY. WE JUST DON’T THINK YOU NEED TO HONOR TRAITORS. GET IT? NOT AMERICANS, BUT TRAITORS.

    • Bub, the cynical zombie

      See, there are these things called “books” that are quite useful if one actually wants to learn about history…

      • PixieThis

        Some even have pictures!

        • Bub, the cynical zombie

          It’s true! And indexes, and appendices, and bibliographies!

          • NastyBossetti

            Bibliographies? Is that where they put the Bible stuff?

          • PixieThis

            I just shivered!

      • Three Finger Salute

        What are you, some kind of cosmopolitan-biased coastal elite?

        • Bub, the cynical zombie

          Hell, I live in Winnipeg. I’m about as far from coastal as it’s possible to get in North America.

      • IdRatherBeDancing

        I had some dipshit on FB answer the, “why don’t they just crack a history book” response with this ludicrous slippery slope of, “Oh ya, what happens when they start burining the books.” WTF?

      • Kiri the Unicorn
  • beatbort

    To nitpick even further, Lee wasn’t killed in the war and Stonewall Jackson was killed by his own troops (friendly fire).
    Hey, Peggy, maybe it was because he was driving in A shonda, instead of A Chevy

  • Cousin Itt un Mondialiste
    • Three Finger Salute

      “You can mail it to me at my Gettysburg Address.”

    • IdRatherBeDancing

      I got all my history learnin and appreciation for classical music from Bugs Bunny!

      • Permit-holder Ron

        Who didn’t?

    • smitallica

      Even this beloved, classic cartoon is unbelievably racist. You know, like the war.

  • Admiral Akbar statue–NOW!!!

  • Shibusa

    “History in America needs to be protected.”
    Yes, fine.
    Confederate History in America does not need to be glorified, though.

    • Dudleydidwrong

      Peggy, baby, those stained glass windows are not history. They are propagandistic glorification, the celebration of traitors.

      • smitallica

        Right? This isn’t hard.

  • Meanie-meanie, tickle a person

    moved to another part of the church to be used in an educational setting unaffiliated with worship

    Yeah, because basically education and religion don’t even belong in the same building.

    Still leaves the question of why the damn things were there in the first place, but whatever…

  • So, can these windows be replaced with representations of Jed Bartlett cursing god?

    • SDGeoff3

      Knowing the National Cathedral, anything is possible.

      • puredog

        I actually sang in the Washington Cathedral Choir of Men and Boys when I was (cough) much younger, and still a soprano. That was before it became libtard central, though even then, the signs were there.

        • SDGeoff3

          A marvelous choir! Did you sing under (cough cough) Callaway and Sowerby?The music program and the wonderful organ are on the skids due to budget problems. For a while, they were going through music personnel like crazy, but I hear things are settling down.

          • puredog

            Yep, me and Cab, we go all the way back. I sang Sowerby’s music, and vaguely remember that he got local with the College of Church Musicians, but don’t remember more. Wayne Dirksen, now, I remember. We’re talkin’ ’61-’65. Sometimes after hours Wayne would kid around on the Great Organ. One of his jokes would be to fire up a huge fanfare on the trompette en chamade, then kill the blower so that it made a fading sort of sad trombone fall-out, and comment, “that’s where Mary drops the baby during the Christmas pageant.”

          • SDGeoff3

            Church organist humor is a darkness all unto itself. Had a teacher who went to CCM. His Calloway stories were priceless. I like Dirksen’s music a lot.

          • puredog

            I sang the world premiere of The Fiery Furnace. I still have it on vinyl. But probably the coolest thing I ever sang in the Cathedral was Britten’s War Requiem, then quite new. God, what a piece of music. ETA: Dirksen’s son (a choirboy himself) was named Geoff.

          • SDGeoff3

            Our college choir sang in DC every spring, usually a big oratorio or cantata with the National Symphony. Often, we’d return to record stuff. We got a generous per diem allowances, and a bunch of us always took our first free day at the cathedral. Just soaked it in. I hear the Herb Cottage burned down several years ago.

          • puredog

            Ah, the Herb Cottage, where my choirboy days of shoplifting contributed to my dossier of bad behavior, which, ultimately, led to me being drummed out of St. Albans by the Honor Council, Senior Prefect Al Gore presiding (probably the best thing, in retrospect, they ever did for me). Calloway was an obsessive perfectionist, and the choirboys lived in terror of him and his angry and disappointed arpeggios, deployed when we were being particularly toneless and/or clueless. Thus it was that, whenever we sang at things like embassy weddings or other private parties, or at Christmas parties, and he would be hanging out, dapper, five foot four (if that), with a cig in one hand and a drink in the other and a huge and amiable grin on his face, we’d skulk around sneaking glimpses of him and going, “WTF?”

          • puredog

            A Google search reveals no Herb Cottage fire, but a 500-ton crane did topple off the Cathedral in 2011, “damaging the Herb Cottage.”

          • SDGeoff3

            Oops!

    • NastyBossetti

      With an actual cigarette, burning eternally.

  • Rebel Scum with permit

    We need a Museum of Derp, where exhibits representing every silly, crazy, worthless, idiotic thing Americans have ever believed could go. Of course, it would take up about 3/4 of the country.

    • Bub, the cynical zombie

      It appears to me that much of the population of the United States is trying turn the country into a 3,000,000 square mile living museum of derp, with the President and his party leading the charge.

  • Covfefe

    History is written by the winner, see? That’s how we know. The Siuth won the .war of Northern Aggression.

    • Beanz&Berryz

      Sitting in their PJs out in Charleston Harbor just DARING to be cannonaded…

  • NastyBossetti

    They didn’t tweet, they took to the field and died.

    From what I understand, it was exceedingly difficult to tweet in the 1860s.

    • Relativicus

      Wifi was practically nonexistent in rural areas back then.

      • NastyBossetti

        And forget trying to get a cell signal on Manassas battlefield!

        • Permit-holder Ron

          Is this the origin of armies’ obsession with taking hills? To get more bars?

      • SpideySenser

        If I recall correctly that was way before the TVA.

    • Joshua Norton

      Well, you could. But actual birds were involved.

    • Rebel Scum with permit

      It was hard to train your pet canary to approximate 140 characters.

    • AnnieGetYerFun

      I figured that part was a dig at Trump.

    • TundraGrifter

      First you had to write out your message on a tiny scroll. Then roll it up super tight and jam it into the metal tube strapped to your carrier pigeon’s leg.

    • smitallica

      Also, Robert E. Lee died in bed after running a college for five years after the war.

  • Kiri the Unicorn

    “And since Darth Vader has a grotesque at the cathedral, where’s the statuary honoring the Rebel Alliance, huh? ”

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-EMMtm_Eb0b4/UOSAyJF1TpI/AAAAAAAALTU/LVG0kbJfduU/s640/Star_Wars_Admiral_Akbar_Magnitude_Steven_Daily_1.jpg

    Damn the torpedoes, you may fire when ready, and I have only begun to fight!

    • Permit-holder Ron

      The mustache takes off 190 years.

  • IdRatherBeDancing

    her drunk counting is hilarious.

  • IdRatherBeDancing

    Can’t these dimwits just read a history book?

    • Permit-holder Ron

      ‘Read’?

  • Marion in Savannah
  • ImGoingBacon

    Please tell me she also uses the Googles machine to look herself up. ‘Cause I think links to Wonket would be at the top of the pile.

    • Marion in Savannah

      I don’t know — Tengrain at Mock Paper Scissors has a hell of a Noonan archive:

      https://mockpaperscissors.com/tag/peggy-noonan/

      • Rebel Scum with permit

        A little of topic, but one of her entries mentiones Diane Feinsteins infamous comment about hoping The Orange Toddler becomes a good President. Was she softening him up? Was this a coordinated group effort?

    • IdRatherBeDancing

      Eh hum. Manuel looks it up and keeps our untidy mess from her. Sheesh.

  • Beanz&Berryz

    “Jackson turned to General Richard Ewell and said gently, ‘General, he who does not see the hand of God in this is blind, Sir, blind!’”

    And Lincoln, when told that a Union victory was a sign that God was on THEIR side, supposedly said, “Ya, God would be nice to have, but I REALLY need Kentucky,” or something like that. And look who won… I guess God was just dick-teasing Jackson and the whole South… He is such a kidder!! har har har har…

    • TundraGrifter

      President Lincoln pointed out that what wasn’t important was having God on their side. What was important was being on God’s side.

      As you pointed out, the outcome tells us all we need to know about that.

      • Beanz&Berryz

        Hmmm. That’s more poignant than Kentucky, though Kentucky might have been a strategic side thought to the larger moral issue…

        • TundraGrifter

          When Gen. Morgan captured a Union general and a large number of horses, President Lincoln is supposed to have been very upset about the loss of the horses.

          Somebody asked him “What about the general?” and he replied “I can always make more generals.”

  • theblackdog

    The National Cathedral already deconsecrated the windows last night (9/6). They are not messing around and I love it!

    https://cathedral.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/L-J-Service-Leaflet.pdf

    • TundraGrifter

      Hmmm…you just missed a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to use “defenestrate.”

      • BearDeLaOursistance

        But now we can use “deconsecrate” as a euphemism, without having to Votes!

      • Permit-holder Ron

        Would the word not be ‘disfenestrate’? If they then tossed the window through the opening, THEN it would be defenestrated?

        • Mehmeisterjr

          If they threw Peggy Noonan through the window, that would be defenestration in the Prague sense of the word (and which I am not calling for, not even with votes.)

          Taking the glass out would be, um, maybe “exfenestration?” “Unfenestration.” Tossing the glass through the hole couldn’t be defenestration, since it is now no longer a window, right, just a hole in the wall? So, I’m thinking out loud here, that would be “deholestation.”

      • theblackdog

        Wait until the orange one is convicted of his crimes :-D

  • smitallica

    What the tuppenny fuck IS it that prevents these people from seeing the difference between “remembering history” and “idolizing people who were clearly on the wrong side of it?”

    • Beanz&Berryz

      Bigotry and racism.

      • smitallica

        Agreed, that’s part of it. But I think it’s deeper than that. I think it’s the conservatives’ typical fear of anything changing from what they learned was “normal” when they were children. The thought of a world where anything is different from how they were brought up utterly terrifies them.

        • Beanz&Berryz

          True. But I bet they use email and cell phones now…

    • BearDeLaOursistance

      In the typology of frustrated fucks, this situation might transcend even the venerable Tuppenny Fuck. We may be dealing with the rare East Lithuanian Speckled Fuck here.

      • CindyinEncinitas

        Is that a protected species?

    • HogeyeGrex

      Being on the wrong side of it themselves.

  • BearGHAZI

    I also want a fucking Pulitzer

    • Beanz&Berryz

      Especially a hawt one…

      • TundraGrifter

        That would be Roxanne, banging her husband on the Capitol steps. Before Prof. Jessica Cutler.

  • mary5920

    Let us pray, Peggy Noonan, that your kind will not pass this way again.

  • City of H8

    I’m so glad the alt-right has conserva-‘splained “history” and “heritage” to my dumb liberal face. So tell me, is there a statue of King George III in Boston (or anywhere in New England)? Are there any statues of General Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna in Texas? You know, those men are part of our history too.

    • CindyinEncinitas

      Where’s the statues for Sitting Bull and Chief Joseph and Crazy Horse?

      • CATMAN

        The Crazy Horse Monument is a work in progress in South Dakota, just down the road from Mt. Rushmore

        • CindyinEncinitas

          Thank you!

      • Zyxomma

        The Crazy Horse Memorial is still under construction, and will be for some time to come: https://crazyhorsememorial.org When complete, it will be the largest mountain construction in the Black Hills.

  • Resistance Fighter Callyson

    No, Peggy, they did not “resolve it:” they stood in the fucking way of a resolution.

    JFC, how hard is this?

    /FFS

    • HogeyeGrex

      they stood in the fucking way of a resolution murdered hundreds of thousands of Americans in the attempt to prevent a resolution.

      ftfy.

  • JayGoldenBeach

    Peggy and Lindsay Graham should go drinking one night – it would be a hoot!

    • BearDeLaOursistance

      I want to see that scene as directed by John Waters…

  • Flashman

    /15. Next thing ya know, they’ll be taking down the stained glass windows of Benedict Arnold.

  • whitroth

    I think that the Daughters of the Confederacy should get together with their sister organization, the Daughters of Nazi Concentration Camp Guards.

    • DesertedPictures

      Germans actually dealt with their past. Those daughters aren’t proud of their ancestors.

      • Permit-holder Ron

        ‘VAT ancestors? <looks shiftily from side to side>

  • DesertedPictures

    Everytime my own ‘don’t erase history’ feelings surface, the so called historic thing dates to the 20th century and modern segegration.
    If someone wants to trar down some actual 150 year old civil war reminder (build by the people that fought in it) I might actually feel a bit conflicted. But a mural from the fifties? I don’t think so.

  • IdRatherBeDancing

    Our beloved Gary needs to weigh in!

    • Serai 1

      I’d like to hear Lori’s thoughts. She always has an interesting perspective.

      • puredog

        Where’s Brad when we need him?

        • CindyinEncinitas

          I miss Brad.

          • wry6read

            Has anyone heard from Melva?

          • CindyinEncinitas

            Her and Brad are in Omaha, I think.

  • Lance Thrustwell

    My position about all of it is – is the image in question (statue, painting, whatever) suggesting heroic memorialization?

    If it is – and I would argue most public monuments or artworks in public areas that depict solitary figures do so by default – then it is reasonable to:

    1) Apply modern criteria for what constitutes ‘heroism’ to the person represented by the image; if it doesn’t meet it, take it down and put it in a museum (if it’s unique enough to warrant inclusion in a collection).

    2) Even if the person/image arguable passes muster by those criteria, it should be asked – can anyone articulate a sensible argument for why the presence of that image promotes oppression, injustice, or insult? If they can… same course of action.

  • Drew Miner

    /8 /8 I forgot what /8 was for but /9, /9 /9 for a lost god, and /10 /10 /10 is for everything EveryThing EVERYTHING

    • Lance Thrustwell

      She can just kiss off into the air!

      • starfanglednut

        They’ll hurt me bad, but I don’t mind.

        • Moar Wordz

          They hurt me bad, they do it all the time !

    • Parakeetist

      Amen

  • Permit-holder Ron

    Hail Vader, full of grace.

    • sincarne

      “May the Force be with you.”

      “…And with thy spirit.”

    • Mehmeisterjr

      Luke, I am your father, son and Holy Ghost.

  • JustDon’tSayDignity
  • BearDeLaOursistance

    It wasn’t Yiddish. “Ashonda” is the name Peggy assigns in her mind to all those troublesome blahs who won’t let bygones be bygones.

  • Blanche de Shambles

    “A shonda”?

    Peggela, now that you’ve become such a Yiddish expert, you should be able to easily translate the following:

    Gai kakhen afenyam.

    • Moar Wordz

      Go shit in the ocean !

  • Carpe Vagenda

    The beleaguered husband is a civil war geek. He was extremely exercised about this series of tweets.

  • puredog

    And when Trix asked if the Noonster got anything right last night, what, pray (so to speak), did she say?

    • jodyleek

      Hiccup?

  • ken_kukec

    In 1953 you say? Just coincidentally, Brown v. Board of Education was argued twice that year across town at the Supreme Court — once in the Spring before Chief Justice Roger Vinson, then again in the Fall, after Vinson croaked, before the new Chief, Earl Warren.

  • CATMAN

    Way to go, Peggy, defending monuments to those who were on the wrong side of history, both morally and politically, whose installation strangely coincided with upticks in the demand for equality by black folks

  • moeman

    Hic.

  • Jackson didn’t “die on the battlefield”, he was shot by members of the 18th North Carolina Infantry regiment–a Confederate regiment–as he was returning to camp. When members of his staff tried to identify themselves, their major yelled “It’s a Yankee trick, keep shootin’!” That’s what happens when your army is a bunch of cousin-fuckers.

    • Mehmeisterjr

      “He who does not see the hand of God in this is… oops’”

    • bubbuhh

      they wuz also slave fuckers 2. They had a dream.

    • CovfefeOfTheThoughtlessMind

      Nicely done. I knew some historically inclined Wonketteer would save me the trouble of pointing out that not only did THE LORD apparently not favor the Confederate cause, but emphasized it by arranging for that lemon-sucking murderer to be shot by his own men. Truly, he who cannot see the hand of God in this is blind, blind I say.

      • Old town Urbandale

        He was shot by his own men, but they only winged him– three wounds to the arm and hand, resulting in the amputation of his left arm. And Jackson died of pneumonia, which may or may not have been a complication of the amputation. Yep, what a hero.

        • CovfefeOfTheThoughtlessMind

          Yes, yes he did. His lord allowed him to have false hope, a nice touch, I say. Before he died he was supposed to have said, “Let us cross over the river and rest under the shade of the trees.”
          Frankly I find the “last words” of famous confederate generals to be a tad too poetic for people with infected gunshot wounds.

  • Opiwan

    I want a grotesque of Vader on every corner of my home’s exterior. That’s fantastic.

  • Hemp Dogbane

    A hundred years from now they’ll be taking down monuments to Franklin Graham & Jerry Falwell. That will be controversial too.

  • GHERKINS OF RESTIVENESS!

    There’s some meta-irony at work here, with Peggy Noonanners* tweeting about history being removed.

    She really should be using Snapchat for defending Confederates.

    * Who?

  • paxpax

    I love you editrix

  • Boko999

    I wonder why are the murdering traitors are wearing blue uniforms? They should be grey.

    • CovfefeOfTheThoughtlessMind

      Rebel gray may not be an actual thing for staining glass.

  • They don’t want to move them to a museum because that would be viewing history in context and not glorifying the glorious losers.

  • susan_g

    I have to admit I didn’t read all (most) of this but really do appreciate you posting Peg’s name here. I’m using that as a call from the man above (Reagan) to pull a “Noonan” by leaving work and going to a nice dark bar.

  • Mehmeisterjr

    It had been a long, long night for Manuel.

    La Pulitzer-winning Señora was more demanding than ever. “Manuel, more gin. Manuel, you call that, a double? Manuel what number comes after /3??”

    “Be very careful today, Manuel,” said Maria Josefina. “¡Cuidadoso! Está en un estado de ánimo de quarta botella.” A fourth-bottle mood. Already! This threatened to become a force 5 shitstorm. “Truly,” thought the swarthy retainer, “the Global Gorming of which they speak is a real thing.”

    “Manuel, what number comes after /4?”

    “Forward slash five, Señora.”

    Would he have enough time to get another case of gin, clean up the inevitable mess and snatch a few moments of sweet, sweet sleep before it started all over again in the morning? The sound of a bottle shattering against the window startled him out of his reverie.

    “Damned defenestrators,” she said. “I’ll defenestrate them. Lee and Stonewall Jackson were issues-settlers, like our sometimes rough-hewn President. And all it took was a Civil War or so. The Civil War! What a… what a…. Manuel, what’s the Yiddish for ‘donnybrook?'”

    He heard a body slump to the floor. The column was incomplete. Fortunately, a trained hamster could finish it and, in fact, La Señora kept a trained hamster for that very purpose. Sometimes it made him sad that she had named the hamster Manuel. “¡Qué lástima! ¡Qué muchissima shonda!”

    Shouts and sirens from the street below testified that the bottle had, indeed, been defenstrated and landed on some poor fellow’s cabeza. It was going to be a long, long night.

    • harryeagar

      Not many people can channel Gary Legum and you do it so well

  • bubbuhh

    Howcumz Trump and hiz streetfightin unterdrumpfs didn’t take to the field and die? Seemz it wuz the r-eyet-acist thing to do.

    • covfefesumgame0005

      because most of them cannot move 3 feet without panting and sweating like a pig?

      • The Flaming Carrot

        It’s all that milk they drink, to prove they’re not Jewish or black or something.

  • OrdinaryJoe

    We are NOT going to have a debate about the moral authority and history of guys who nearly destroyed the nation defending their need to preserve an economy based on involuntary servitude. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

  • Biel_ze_Bubba

    They’re quite happy to build theme parks around Elvis, Dolly, Genesis, and Noah’s Ark, so let’s build a Civil War War of Northern Aggression theme park, somewhere in Dixie, where all the statues, flags, stained glass windows, and other Confederate and Southern racist detritus can be collected, put on display, and viewed by the same gullible goobers who make all those other places commercially viable.

    • Cat Cafe for the Prosecution

      It could go right along with all those swastika-flagged Nazi theme parks in Germany. Who doesn’t enjoy their rides, U-Boats of the Caribbean, Goebbel’s Go Coaster, Naz-Tea Party Whirling Teacups, Mr. Himmler’s Wild Solution, It’s A Small Bunk, Eichmann in Wondercamp, Casey Jr.’s Cattlecar Train (one way only), Auschwitzopia…

      • Rags

        Can I add Mr. Pepe’s Wild Ride?

        • HooverVilles

          That would top it all off, bigly!

        • Cat Cafe for the Prosecution

          Haha! Very nice. Or how about, Pepe Pan’s Flight?

      • CovfefeOfTheThoughtlessMind

        Well played.

      • The Flaming Carrot

        Stop! You’re giving me Witzelsucht!

    • Weird Fishes

      and then give Shoney’s or Waffle House the catering contract so that of all the visitors contract lethal dysentery, just like at Andersonville!

  • Cat Cafe for the Prosecution

    I still can’t get past her wretched attempt to co-opt the term “Shanda,” which she is using completely wrong of course. It means “shame,” but not in the sense of “it’s a shame to do that” or even “shame on you for that.” It has, in the gloriously, baroquely byzantine world of Jewish culture, a specific connotation of “terrible, profound disgrace which mars the entire community, and in front of the outside world, too” and is usually expressed as a “Shanda fur die goyim” (a disgrace, and in front of the goyim). Who the hell is she to try to co-opt Jewish phrases? As Rebecca points out, she knows nothing about Catholicism, either.

    And by the way, to anyone with even the vaguest moral core, the true “Shanda” was slavery, and the disgraceful traitors people who fought US, to defend the idea of owning human beings. Removing icons glorifying them is the exact opposite of a “Shanda.” It is a “Mitzvah.” She might note that Auschwitz has no glorifying statue of Hitler with a Swastika flag.

    • CovfefeOfTheThoughtlessMind

      God, don’t get her started on that!

    • NotDarkYet

      Wow–thank you for explaining; I’m always happy when I learn something new.

      I thought she had misspelled Schande (German for shame).

      • Cat Cafe for the Prosecution

        It is Yiddish, but comes from the same original word. It just carries a very specific weight and meaning.

      • King Beauregard

        Yiddish is, for the most part, German with terminology lifted from Hebrew and other European languages. It came about as Jews came to live in German-speaking regions, and adopted the language of the locals.

        Look up “Ashkenazi” for more info on this. Yes, Ashke-NAZI of all things.

    • SeeTrain65

      I’m glad I read this before I commented, else I would have said the exact same thing you said in your penultimate sentence.

    • HooverVilles

      Thanks! I learned something new today.

    • HooverVilles

      Thanks! I learned something new today.
      >^o.o^<

    • Mike Steele

      Thanks, Cat. Noted many hours later that she seems to bastardize the Anglicans and justify the position of the Christo-fascists, all the while claiming to be a practicing Catholic. Go fucking figure. Haven’t found a quantity of booze yet that would provoke such a clueless outburst. Guess I’ll have to work on that…

  • Poly_Ester

    The term “moran” applies here, by moran, I mean someone easily outwitted by a moron.

    • Jim QuinnX

      Oh. I wondered what that meant.

  • SpideySenser

    Dame Pennington Noonanshireginsvillelushtown says what?

  • CovfefeOfTheThoughtlessMind

    Methinks Dame Pegginton Nooningtonshire hath been imbibing spiritous libations again.

    • NotDarkYet

      Lost track of tweets/forgot how to count — that’s some serious plastered right there!

    • HooverVilles

      Nice phraseology!

  • pgjack

    Those who fought for the confederacy fought to uphold the right to own human beings. To sell those human beings, to rape them, to sell their children and to torture and kill them if they so desired. Those people should never be honored. Noonan, what an ass, and I don’t mean that in a good way.

    • HooverVilles

      Exactly, that is what they were fighting for.
      The $64,000 question; why would anyone desire to honor people who fought to maintain that practice?

      • Bezoar

        Well, it’s a step toward reinstating that practice.
        It’s good to realize that the kind of people who want to have slaves are still abundantly with us.

  • writeon

    I’ve always wondered why Southerners love Lee so much that they want statues of him. He was a good enough general to prolong the war but not to win it, with terrible results — massive casualties and devastation, with the latter almost entirely south of the Mason-Dixon line. Better for the South, including Virginia, if he’d never been born.

  • NotDarkYet

    “most killing moral struggle” — does she have Wortfindungsschwierigkeiten?

    “most killing”???

    “moral struggle”??? ya mean “civil war” (nothing civil about it, of course)

  • harryeagar

    In case anybody hasn’t been following the bouncing ball, the reason the Catholic nominee was asked those questions was because she had written that she would judge according to Catholic doctrine as opposed to American law, should the two conflict.

    Dok tries but he doesn’t make fun of Noonan as good as Gary Legum used to do.

  • Alan

    Wow, she was shitfaced.

  • Maybe

    Yes, they were figures in the greatest, most killing moral struggle in US history.

    On the wrong side.

  • Christopher C Lander

    Cat Cafe, please stop making my vodka tonic shoot out of my nose. It hurts and it’s a waste.

    • Man, that is some magic trick: filling your sinuses with vodka tonic. Maybe she could put some scotch in my stomach?

  • Incoming Ham

    Dear Peggy,

    That’s what museums and history books are for. We don’t need a great wanking stained glass window as a constant reminder – especially since they were honored with the window like hero’s.

    • harryeagar

      She has a point about that glass being a part of history, but it’s nothing to do with the history of the Civil War, which had been over for nearly a hundred years when it was made. It is, though, an artifact of Massive Resistance and as such ir would be appropriate in the National Museum of African-American History.

      Se’s dead wrong though about the leaders of the South attempting reconciliation. My great granddaddy was one of the ‘Glorious 8’ who restored S. Carolina to white supremacy in 1877.

      • Incoming Ham

        I see her point that it’s a part of history. You’re right, put it in a museum.

    • toughsister

      heroes, please.

      • Jim QuinnX

        being pretty tough there, sister

      • Incoming Ham

        Fixed. I really was an autocorrect issue. I try not to use my phone to post.

  • Heyzeus Ahchay

    “They are us”???
    The fuck they are (were). By Way Past Noonan’s thinking, the Washington National Cathedral needs to quickly install some stained glass artwork depicting the Union Jack with George Cornwallis and George III. They were us, too, moran.

    • Gussie Jives

      Benedict Arnold could use some love. :P

      • Kooolest G

        where’s the statue of Bernardine Dohrn?

        • Jim QuinnX

          Dibs on Bozo The Clown!

      • gingerwentworth1

        Joe McCarthy! He meant well, and, also drank all day.

  • I’ve never read anything by Peggy Noonan. All of my contact with her has come through Wonkette, so she was always a caricature to me. A funny drunk archetype like Foster Brooks. But, this column, although not written by Noonan but about her has a lot more of her writing in it. I’m beginning to think that the drunk jokes aren’t exactly a joke, are they? Wow! Maybe her houseboy, Julio or whoever y’all made up for her, needs to take over proofreading duties.

    • Any and all mispellings and typoes have been intentially done to poke fun at Noonan’s abysmal skills.

    • JD Mulvey

      She’s been writing forever, and once in a while they used to bring her out for a little exercise on Meet The Press, but it’s been a while.

      Wonkette‘s treatment of her is startlingly accurate.

      • Yeah, judging from her tweets, which I hate to judge anyone by, but life is stranger than fiction, ain’t it?

  • JD Mulvey

    Twitter is HARD!

  • Isn’t Peggy Noonan defending people on the wrong side of history kind of a thing of hers. I mean this isn’t the first time that she’s defended the damned and damnedable.

  • reelreeler
  • mfp, all 6s&7s&9s

    i think it’s time for friedman of the plains to put the final nail in this one…..

    https://friedmanoftheplains.com/is-it-noonan-or-is-it-not-523f183b1da5

  • Mike Steele

    Lady MS here: Was raised a hard-core Anglican and made many a field trip to the Cathedral of which heretical ‘Catholic’ Noonan impudently speaks. Fuckin’ LOVE that edifice, which rivals any in Europe. MS was raised in Queens as an English Lutheran. We are both now agnostics for life…but we know this much – were there a god with an earthling son, as espoused by Episcopalians worldwide, it would neither exalt nor celebrate in art those who advocated for the oppression of all god’s chilluns. Period.
    Wanna defend that shit, Peggy? Then go to some RC parish in South Boston. Leave my sacred space alone, and allow us to celebrate their VERY wise decision to relegate the windows to a historical exhibit. Best not get up in my grille on this one, babe.

  • UnsaltedSinner

    It seems Peggy really did learn all her history from statues.

  • Gussie Jives

    “Ponder what grave moral wrongs we might be ignoring”, huh. Sorry, was this the same Peggington Noonington that didn’t want to talk about the torture memos and preferred to keep walking?

    By Jove, I think it was:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVCULSpJK2o

  • toughsister

    Stonewall Jackson was a christian who died on the battlefield. Why? To preserve slavery, of course! Did it occur to that idiot that once he was dead, he’d have no longer any use for slaves?

  • Jim QuinnX

    Not to get picky, but nobody won the Civil War. The so-called “winners” suffered staggering casualties, including the president. It was hugely expensive. And in the years since, we’ve been burdened by the constant barrage of backwards ideas and attitudes that continue to emanate from the confederate states. We would have been better off if we’d celebrated when they withdrew. A good old cotton boycott and a blockade would have ended slavery much more effectively than war. Plus, for more than a century, the federal government has been dumping money on those deadbeats at much higher rates than the miniscule taxes they pay.

    God, if we could just get rid of Texas . . .

    • gingerwentworth1

      If the South had been another country, that would have been 200 times worse. And the people there who aren’t like that who’d have been stuck there with Jeff Sessions-type men running their lives– we’d be like the 2 Koreas, one trying to get along and the other saying “We’re keeping our slaves! You better respect us! We’ll bomb you,” and so on. That’s what I think it would be.

      • Jim QuinnX

        It certainly would have been worse – for the south. They would have gone through a blockade/boycott that made slavery too expensive to sustain, and they would not have benefitted from the century-plus federal investment in everything from schools, hospitals and highways to water plants, sewer plants, and the TVA.

        And if we just left them alone, what would they have to complain about? They’d have the same opportunities as any other nation; the difference would be that they just weren’t as technologically and culturally advanced as the north, and that would gradually become apparent to folks on both sides of the Mason/Dixon Line. After all, they were the ones who wanted to be independent. Well, let them see how far that gets them.

        My own feeling is that smart folks born and raised in the south would want to move north to do things like get an education and start innovative business. Blacks, of course, would still have wanted to go north, where they would be welcome in US factories.

        The old south might even eventually get it through their heads that their backward ways aren’t working, which would encourage them to be more like the north. We might even decide to send them some charity foreign aid as long as they do things like stop lynching black people.

        • gingerwentworth1

          Ha ha ha, the boycott and the blockade would have put us in an instant war, and ha ha ha do you really think they would have said to themselves, “we’ll feel better about ourselves if we start recognizing the humanity of these coloreds, because after all, it’s fun to do the laundry and lose all the profits from our agribusinesses.” I don’t think so. And they don’t want to be more like the North, they want to be like the South. They think people in the North are mean and ignorant, with bad manners. Funny isn’t it?

          • Jim QuinnX

            Speculation like this is just that – speculation. Feel free to disagree with my feeling that the Civil War was a disaster that created toxic after-effects that resonate to this day. It’s my view that almost any other route would have been better, but you are free to disagree.

            However, there is no need to speculate about the effects of a boycott/blockade. Before the war, southerners believed that they held a global monopoly on “King Cotton,” which they believed to be so valuable that the economies of Europe would collapse if cotton was withheld.

            That’s why they deliberately shut off the export of cotton in the early years of the war; it was an effort to force Europeans to support the Confederacy militarily, especially in naval action.

            This tactic blew up in their faces. Europeans debated this at length, deciding that they’d get their cotton from places like Egypt, India, and Polynesia. Indeed, the demand for southern cotton never recovered after the civil war because the Europeans didn’t want to be vulnerable to that kind of blackmail again.

            And the Europeans made it clear that they were actually more concerned with maintaining the steady flow of goods from northern states, which produced hugh amounts of manufactured goods, timber, and agricultural products. Oops.

            Holding on to slavery was an idea that was simply on the wrong side of history. It collapsed in many parts of the world for reasons having nothing to do with war.

            In the north and across Europe, there was a growing resistance to buying products produced by slaves. It might have taken a few more years, but slavery would have ultimately collapsed for economic reasons, sparring North America from the horrors of a particularly horrific war.

  • Shag D

    Why don’t they respect this churchs religious freedom to remove things they don’t want to see in their house of worship????

  • Hiam J Beaudry

    Grotesque and not gargoyle! Thank you from the bottom of my grammar other-n-word heart.

  • Sekhmet1

    I misread Dame Peggy’s tweeter handle as “Peggy Noonanny” and it amused me. That was the most important thing I took from her stream-of-consciousnessing, since the rest is all GOD what a load of frogshit.

  • gingerwentworth1

    What tells her the confederates tried to reconcile after the war ended? If she’s so anxious to say something soothing, which seems to be the thing she loves best, why not say the North tried to reconcile after the war, because it was Lincoln who insisted on no punishment. And the South that became horrible during reconstruction. And have been in a bad mood ever since, if I may generalize. Or is she just somebody who loves the confederacy? Isn’t she from the NE? Or does she just have an instinct for being wrong?
    (Youth wants to know!)

  • Moar Wordz

    What planet does she come from ?
    Twatting was never so obstructionist.
    Put it in a museum ! The Church decided it didn’t want those images in their house of worship & she’s having kittens over it.
    ” Children need something to look up to , ”
    Barf ! Who said they weren’t replacing the stained glass windows with ANOTHER set of stained glass windows ?
    Yes, hundreds of thousands died horribly in the civil war, on both sides.
    Taking down statues and art lauding the Confederacy doesn’t dishonor their sacrifice,
    It states that the modernist majority actively believes slavery is wrong, feels the monuments send the wrong message, etc.
    Her nose is out of joint bcse people are taking a stand and altering pro-confederacy monuments ? Shouldn’t she be saying
    ” bravo ? “

  • BFD

    Where’s the statue or stained glass window for Timothy McVeigh? He might have disagreed with all of us, but he was one of us. If we are to understand him, we must openly discuss him and try to see his point of view. I mean, we stayed America after Oklahoma City, so what is the problem here? You can’t erase history, so glorify it. That makes perfect sense.

  • WhoCheckedRussia’sVoterID

    Things that aren’t worshipped can still be discussed. A statue is a form of commemoration. WE as a society decide what we commemorate in the public square. There is no way that removing a statue from prominent places in our world somehow prevents discussion or increases the risk of reliving our worst mistakes.

    trump drew a line between Lee and Jefferson. Somehow we can’t remember one without the other. Maybe thats true. Maybe we shouldn’t be commemorating anyone who actively worked to keep the slave in America. Seems logical to me. American exceptionalism is a true thing. America does have an great society. But it is far from perfect and celebrating those horrible, ongoing mistakes makes no fucking sense. Discussing them makes a lot of sense.

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