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Here, I’ll break some news…

California Senator Kamala Harris announced at a town hall event in Oakland Wednesday that she plans to co-sponsor Bernie Sanders’s Medicare For All bill when he introduces it in September. “It’s just the right thing to do,” she said as she got a standing ovation. Then she paused for a moment and added, laughing, “Somebody should tell my staff” (see the 1:27:00 point in her Facebook video).

Harris went on:

It is so much better that people have meaningful access to health care, from birth through the rest of their lives. The alternative is that we, as taxpayers, are spending huge amounts of money to send them to emergency rooms.

Hey, wouldn’t it be something if the end result of Donald Trump and congressional Republicans’ complete and utter fuckery in trying to repeal the Affordable Care Act got us to the actual honest-to-god next step of real single-payer? Not that any eventual positive outcome is really “worth” the fuckery, so no, Susan Sarandon, don’t you go getting smug!

As the Washington Post notes, it wasn’t exactly a surprise, since Harris had been talking about universal health care all during the recent fuck-tussle over the inhuman Senate GOP bill to repeal the ACA, slash Medicaid, and allow women to get birth control only with the written permission of their husbands, two physicians and Jesus Christ Himself.

Following the town hall, Harris told reporters,

I think there’s no question that we have to get to a point where all people have access to affordable health care […] As we talk about moving towards a single-payer system, I think there is certainly momentum and energy around it. When I get back to DC I’ll have a better idea of where [other senators] are now that they’ve been home.

Senator Sanders was happy, you bet:

Harris joins Elizabeth Warren and Kirsten Gillibrand in publicly endorsing single-payer, but she’s the first Democratic senator to commit to co-sponsoring the Sanders bill. Even though it has no chance of passing unless Democrats retake Congress in 2018 — and would probably be vetoed by President Trump if he’s still around, and definitely by President Pence if he isn’t — it’s an excellent start toward the goal of bringing a sensible healthcare system to the USA.

The actual details of Sanders’s bill have yet to be worked out, but just the words “Medicare for all” are already a far more concrete plan than anything Donald Trump ever said about healthcare. Harris added she thinks Americans’ overwhelming rejection of the Republican plan to gut Obamacare bodes well for single-payer:

“The recent history on the issue of health care is very telling,” she said. “Americans are making it very clear, when they defeated the repeal of ACA, that they don’t want us playing politics with their health care. They’ve made it very clear that this is not an issue they identify with through their party affiliation. That’s very promising.”

So here’s hoping more Democrats get on board with single-payer (right now, more than half of Democrats in the House are supporting John Conyers’s OG Medicare For All bill), or at least with an effort to shore up the ACA and expand benefits to people in states that didn’t expand Medicaid, where there’s a gap between subsidized plans on the exchanges and the limit on Medicaid eligibility.

We’re encouraged, so now let’s all have a big fight over whether fixing the ACA is actually a centrist sellout and a betrayal of real progressivism, or whether single-payer is a pie-in-the-sky dream that we have to hold off on. Actually, let’s not do that. Medicare For All FOR ALL, HOORAY!

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[WaPo / Kamala Harris on Facebook / Mother Jones]

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  • Harris/Warren (or Warren/Harris) 2020!

    • tza

      While I’d be happy to vote for that (or any ticket including Al Franken) let’s focus on 2018 first. Don’t want to give people targets too early, after all.

  • chascates

    Single payer or death!

    • OrG

      Literally,in some cases.

  • OrG

    This is a GOOD thing.

  • Latverian Diplomat

    “Health care reform that insures more people instead of fewer? That’s crazy talk!”
    — Paul Ryan, considered a ‘wonk’ by such noted ‘non-wonks’ as Wolf Blitzer

    • spangled

      “Healthy people paying for sick people, not MY health insurance” – Paul Ryan, noted wonk who doesn’t know what insurance is

      • Latverian Diplomat

        “If one more person calls Paul Ryan a wonk, I’m going to kick David Brooks right in the balls [ed: with votes]”
        — Paul Krugman

    • Resistance Fighter Callyson

      If Erick “Vagina Monologues” Erickson hadn’t driven me from CNN, that asshole Wolf Blitzer would have been the reason I don’t tune in to those assholes unless I have no choice…

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ffc705cdecf0631a4413b5c87d432ff95a25416299ddae0332d0897b0f7fc98a.jpg

      • Latverian Diplomat

        “I’m your second least favorite CNN idiot? Always a bridesmaid…”
        — Wolf Blitzer

      • coozledad

        Wolf Blitzer wouldn’t even make a good paperweight. He’s as useless a being as you’ll ever see.

        • Marion in Savannah

          Waste of perfectly good oxygen.

      • Persistent Demme

        You mean Wolf “Monotone” Blitzer?

    • Three Finger Salute

      He’s not a Wonkette, that’s for sure. He’s a wanker.

    • GoutMachine

      As had been said of others in various ways, and attributed to various people: Paul Ryan is the idiot’s idea of what a smart person sounds like.

  • Resistance Fighter Callyson
    • Latverian Diplomat

      Facebook should adopt Wonkette’s policy of not allowing comments.

      • Three Finger Salute

        99 44/100% of the Internet should.

        • Arolpin

          That an Ivory specific number

    • Three Finger Salute

      Thankfully, I block antisocial media in my Hosts file (because I’m an antisocial enough geek who knows how to do that). Zero traffic to and from any of those shit websites happens on my machine.

    • empf

      Lol. Thanks for the heads up.

  • Vincent Ricola

    Please can we please do this I’ve been begging for this since early 90s high school debate class when I was tasked with arguing pro-Hillarycare please please please it’s time now.

  • Wolf Tracker

    I don’t see single payer ever passing at the Fed level with so many lobbyists for insurance companies padding pockets of congress but it could happen at the state level and states like CA and NY could set up their own single payer systems and once it is proven to work at the state level more states would join in including red states.

    That is how Canada’s system took hold.

    • Toomush_Inferesistance

      How provincial…

    • Latverian Diplomat

      I’m in the “don’t worry about passage; get it out there and get people talking about it” camp on this one.

    • spangled

      medicaid for all could get us to a canada-like system. federal government would just have to be involved with some regulations on states aka, telling Texas its medicaid also has to cover icky women.

    • Spotts1701, Nothingburger Chef

      There’s also the whole “throw an entire industry out of work” part as well. I mean, I’m all in favor of the concept. But a whole lot of middle-class folks who work as claims adjusters and analysts would suddenly find themselves out of jobs, and that’s something that also needs to be addressed.

      • spangled

        absolutely, no overhaul can happen overnight, that was one of my biggest issues with bernie’s rhetoric.

        it has to be a shift over many years, but that’s why it seems impossible because you know even if it passes republicans will get back in power and fuck it up.

      • OutOfOrbit

        build moar coal plants & put those coal miners back to work!

      • weighmaster

        Wouldn’t expanding the public healthcare system that much also create many administrative positions?

        • Spotts1701, Nothingburger Chef

          Depends on the structure that is developed. Some folks would lose jobs, simply out of efficiencies (similar to any merger situation between two businesses in the same industries). The idea is to minimize the impact as best as possible, and as stated below, spread it over time.

    • Three Finger Salute

      Don’t bring up Canada, though, or it’ll get Americans to oppose the bill. Jimmy Kimmel hit the nail on the head when he proved once and for all why Americans like the “Affordable Care Act” but hate “Obamacare.” Associating it with a pejorative moniker like “Trudeaucare” (even though it wasn’t his, but nobody here knows or cares who Tommy Douglas was) is going to get the 65M Trumpenfascists to call for a war of northern aggression. That is, aggression against the north.

      Words like “Freedom,” “Liberty,” and of course “America” work well. So I guess we could call it the American Freedom Liberty Christian Israel Oil Act. It’s a healthcare bill that has nothing to do with any of those things, but the 65M Trumpists would just see the important words… while those in the know would appreciate that we’d just called it the AFL-CIO.

      The only way you could invoke Canada is to have Kiefer Sutherland be the spokesman and say, “My grandpa came up with this. And now I’m an American hero.”

      • jaspersdad

        Have you ever heard the famous ‘Mouseland’ speech (in Canada anyway) by Tommy Douglas?

    • Vagenda of Rebel Scum

      There could be plenty of opportunities for insurance companies. We could adopt the German or Swiss system, which requires their citizens to pick an insurer. The insurers could sell supplemental Medicare(which they already do, because you’d be appalled at what Medicare doesn’t cover if you’re a middle class retiree) policies
      Americans like choice, and a system where they could pick an insurer might be easier for them to accept then a government run healthcare system.
      Finally, we have a family friend who is a holdover individual practice physician- he’s hates tostop taking Medicare patients, because not many MD’s in the Silicon Valley will accept them, but he said that the payments are low, it takes forever to get reimbursed, and their billing system was a nightmare to implement.
      Insurance companies could make the transition easier.
      Kaiser is a non profit, and a lot of Californians like the care they get- they are an example of how it could be done.

      • ahughes798

        My sister, who had breast cancer, had insurance through Kaiser. Since I spent near the whole summer in California then, taking her to appointments, taking care of her after chemo, I have to say I was really impressed with the care she got through Kaiser. They were thorough, explained things in non-medical speech, and caring.

    • Gayer Than Thou

      Actual legit question: could big blue states – like California and New York – enter into a compact by which they share resources? I can see a hundred problems with that as soon as I typed it, so that’s probably reason enough not to do so, but the combined populations would be a very big risk pool.

      • ViveLaResistance!

        I could see some small regional states (I’m looking at you, New England) forming regional single-payer systems. Within each region are usually similar governing philosophies (note: except of course outliers like grrr.. LePage, but he will be gone soon enough), so it..might..work!

    • Persistent Demme

      I think that this is what’s going to happen.
      I also think that other states will join in when they see companies moving to single-payer states.
      States that can’t offer their employees coverage will suffer.
      (I have lived in Canada and England, and have seen what a huge difference this makes.)

  • If this doesn’t spur folks off their asses to vote in 2018 midterms I’ll put my boots on and spur them myself.

  • OutOfOrbit

    i guess this makes Kamala Harris a DIRTY FUCKING “BERNER”!

    • Bananas Foster

      Yeah, because sharing a position with Bernie Sanders is all it takes.

      • OutOfOrbit

        that is what i hear

        • Bananas Foster

          I think the fact that she endorsed Clinton in 2016 puts her in the clear.

  • Scooby

    Why do all the wingnust say that if we do this we will end up like Venezuela but they never say we will end up like Switzerland. It because of the cheese right? It has to be because of the cheese.

    • WotsAllThisThen

      Maybe because Switzerland has a well-educated high tech workforce and Venezuela is a red petro-state. So wingnuts are looking at this and asking, you want us to study hard in school? I’d rather just drill for oil!

      • GoutMachine

        They are more than welcome to move to Venezuela. Each and every one of them. Me, I’d rather live in Swiss paradise!

      • Three Finger Salute

        “I love the poorly educated!”

    • On the positive side that means Swiss Miss Instant Cocoa for ALL, right?

      • Latverian Diplomat

        “Mini-marshmallows are not an entitlement!”
        — A Republican

    • Suttree
      • Skwerl the Nazi Puncher

        Those cans did suck unless you had the special can piercer. how many times did I just hammer a screwdriver through the top of them.

        • Suttree

          I’m pretty handy with a knife. Once there was a small hurricane a few weeks after I moved. I left my can opener at the old place.

          • aureolaborealis

            Yep. Once you get the hang of it, using a knife as a can-opener is pretty easy. If I catch anyone using my Wusthofs or Shuns to open cans, though, there will be words … and possibly blood.

        • Latverian Diplomat

          Canning: invented 1810.
          The can opener: invented 1858

        • h4rr4r

          A church key is a special tool?

      • WotsAllThisThen

        Are those canned clams? YOU MONSTER!

    • Latverian Diplomat

      “After all it’s not that awful. You know what the fellow said – in Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace – and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. ”
      — Harry Lime, Republican speech writer?

      • House0fTheBlueLights

        what did that produce? The cuckoo clock

        Don’t forget the worldwide banking conspiracy.

      • Celtic_Gnome

        There’s a German restaurant in Amish country that features a large room over the restaurant where they have cuckoo clocks for sale. You cant get near the place at noon.

    • Three Finger Salute

      Blessed are the cheesemakers.

    • Latverian Diplomat

      The capital of Switzerland is “Bern”. The people who live there are called “Berners.” Coincidence?

      • Scooby

        I thought it was Bernaisers like the sauce.

        • Latverian Diplomat

          That is actually spelled Béarnaise, and is named after the province of Béarn in France.

          Apologies if you knew that already and were just kidding.

    • Celtic_Gnome

      When I think of Venezuela, the first thing I think of is cheese.

  • Bananas Foster

    The US thinks about stepping into the 1940s…

    Erm. I mean in terms of healthcare.

    Not all that war and fascist bullshit.

    That’s already a mile behind us.

  • Toomush_Inferesistance

    What makes single payer work in other countries is a set of controls on costs, on limitations of liability for doctors, of education support for health care professionals, of negotiated, universal price controls on procedures, an end to insurance profits, and a host of highly lobbied-against measures of price reduction for pharmaceuticals. Any of these, the Republicans could take on and win back plenty of voters if their heads weren’t so firmly stuck up their asses…

    • Wolf Tracker

      Many Reps I have talked to want single payer system they just don’t want Dems to get credit for it and don’t you dare call it socialism.

    • Poorly Behaved Pérsistanista

      Wallets. Heads stuck up their wallets.

      • Toomush_Inferesistance

        Funny place to keep a wallet….

        • Poorly Behaved Pérsistanista

          Talk about dirty money.

        • ahughes798

          Some people are REALLY afraid of being mugged.

    • h4rr4r

      The other big issue is supply of doctors.

      The AMA limits how many doctors are produced this drives up costs.

      Price controls with our current production of doctors and the costs that entail mean you will end up with no doctors.

      • Alan

        You’re joking? The AMA doesn’t control the number of doctors unless you consider licensing requirements to be a form of control.

        • h4rr4r
          • Alan

            The AMA doesn’t determine the number of residencies, the federal government does. The federal government funds residencies and the number of residencies funded was capped about 15 years ago. The person writing that article doesn’t understand what they’re writing about.

          • h4rr4r

            How do you think they decided to cap that?

            The point is doctors make sure there are not too many doctors. This drives prices up.

          • Alan

            I’m guessing you don’t know how medical residencies work. No, nobody did anything for the AMA. The losers, the hospitals, pharmaceutical, and medical equipment lobbies, spend significantly more money combined than the AMA and they were the losers. It was congress who decided that a balanced budget was good and instead of doing that by actually collecting taxes the obvious way to do it was reduce services to the most vulnerable population. You seem to have found the one single article in existence that frames it as a conspiracy among physicians while there are hundreds of academic papers freely available that have studied the causes and impact of the balanced budget act and the only guy who thinks it was the AMA is some guy from Mother Jones who probably doesn’t even understand what he’s writing about. Everything is not a conspiracy. Don’t know what else to tell you, this is something I’m quite familiar with.

          • h4rr4r

            Citation please.

            Either way we need more doctors that so many are immigrants proves that.

          • Alan

            Google Scholar. Balanced Budget Act.

          • h4rr4r

            Isn’t that just medicare related?
            Mind you the whole residency system, as little as I admittedly understand it, looks like a scam.

          • Alan

            Yes, graduate medical education (residencies) is funded with the Medicare budget for the public good. They didn’t cap the budget directly, they capped the number of residents each hospital is allowed without thought to population growth.

          • h4rr4r

            Who lobbied for that I wonder….

    • Three Finger Salute

      TL;DR

      “Socialism”

      -Source: Wingnut outrage machine

  • coozledad
    • Three Finger Salute

      So what the hell is he saying? Meet violence with more violence? That happened in Germany once upon a time, and the wrong side won…

      No, sorry, as tempting as it is, except in cases of immediate self-defense, I cannot get on board with proactively “punching Nazis.” When they go low, we go high.

      • ahughes798

        Which is exactly why Dems keep losing elections. Fuck “going high.” It doesn’t fucking work, and it should be painfully obvious by now that it didn’t. I believe the Germans were met with great violence..and our side won. But what if we had just decided not to fight and did the “go high” BS?

        • Claire

          Yeah, I seem to recall there being a lot of violence involved in getting the Germans to stop sending everyone to concentration camps. Nobody won that war by sending activists to hold teach-ins on Normandy Beach.

    • jaspersdad

      Looked at the comments and this appears.

      Letter from Birmingham Jail (ext)

      By Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr., 16 April 1963

      “First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can’t agree with your methods of direct action;” who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a “more convenient season.”

  • empf

    Good for her. They really need to address the PRICE of the car itself. There are ridiculous mark ups which no one seems to be addressing. I look at bills all day long at work. It’s out of control.

    • h4rr4r

      You can get a cheaper car.

  • Joe Beese

    I await Chris Cilizza’s analysis why this dooms the Democrats in 2020.

    • Major_Major_Major

      Clitzilla’s steaming hot takes always leave me feeling flushed.

  • Joe Beese
    • Msgr_MΩment

      You can get a rash !

      • Celtic_Gnome

        And put your eye out!

  • Anna Rompage

    Say what? These are just crocodile tears and she’s nothing more than a corporate shill, Hillary wannabe. She is just saying empty platitudes and out right lies, in effort gain support from the smart & righteous people who voted for Bernie & then Jill Stein.. We will not be fooled by this evil corporate charlatan, as we can see through her veiled lied & deceit… /s

    • Spotts1701, Nothingburger Chef
      • Anna Rompage

        Going for 10/10 on the bonus round;

        “Voting for her is not any different than voting for Trump, they are the same!”

        • Phew!

        • GoutMachine

          And she sticks the landing!

        • Villago Delenda Est

          Great minds in evidence here in the replies to Anna.

    • Toomush_Inferesistance

      “Bernie said it first!”…

    • I’ve reached the point where I can’t tell the difference between bots, snark, and earnest idiocy. Is it just me? Or was that the plan all along?

      • Marion in Savannah

        Anna was careful to use the snark tag here.

      • OutOfOrbit

        i know the feeling well

    • CripesAmighty

      That was pretty good. Was at, ‘yeah, fuck you too…’ when, ‘aww, yeahhh..’

    • Manders

      A school friend in the DSA immediately took credit on behalf of himself and other “purists” for pressuring Harris into the position, even though two weeks ago he was reposting that article about her, Booker, etc.

      Ugh. Just . . . cram it sideways, dude. You haven’t accomplished anything yet.

      • Persistent Demme

        Typical “talk the talk” from them.
        (Don’t forget to thank him for giving us “president” Trump.)

      • Marceline

        Accomplishing nothing is their specialty.

      • Carpe Vagenda

        Well, he’s sort of right. They’ve behaved so contemptibly that Sanders was forced to stop triangulating and pretending not to notice and make cause with someone he’d prefer to hang out to dry. And I wouldn’t be surprised if he was forced into it, given the way that he backed away from single payer absolutism at the same time as his droogs in the URC backed away from caucuses.

        • King Beauregard

          “Droogs”! Great minds think alike, I’ve been calling them that for ages.

    • WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot

      WHAT THE FUCK ARE…oh. Damn. Well played, well played indeed.

    • Marceline

      Poe’s Law just keeps screwing with me.

    • Snopes Shop

      love u

  • Relativicus

    BernieBros will not be fooled!

    • Villago Delenda Est

      Given their track record, I’m not putting a farthing on that bet…

  • h4rr4r

    Cool, so long as we can all agree the fallback plan is a public option.

    I just want to make sure there are lots of good options out there.

    I liked Bernie saying this was not a litmus test. We can’t let perfect be the enemy of good.

    • P’jama Pahnts

      Public option could be written in a way that would encourage employers to put their employees on it.

      • h4rr4r

        I think it would do that simply by existing.

        Odds are any public option will get flooded with the sickest folks. To gain healthy members it would be priced aggressively and employers are selecting on the metric of price first already.

    • Three Finger Salute

      I do kind of wish he had handed it off to someone else to put their name on it. I haven’t watched Fox in a long time (I like to “know your enemy” as Green Day says), because it got to the point where it was making me sick. But the fact that he still has never unequivocally disavowed the dirty word “socialist” means that any Bernie bill is, effectively, blacklisted once the wingnut media gets wind of who’s behind it. Steinbeck’s law of temporarily-embarrassed gold-toilet wrestlers.

  • Spotts1701, Nothingburger Chef

    The actual details of Sanders’s bill have yet to be worked out

    Hopefully, he doesn’t take a “my way or the highway” approach to that.

    • theblackdog

      *snicker*

  • Skwerl the Nazi Puncher

  • GoutMachine

    I’m all aboard the single-payer train for all the obvious reasons. The only thing that gives me the slightest pause is something I actually saw here in the non-comments a few weeks ago: Imagine what Republicans would do to it.

    Given all the jiggery-pokery they already do with women’s health, I shudder to think of what a single-payer system would look like if they had the keys to it. Then we’d really be up shit creek in terms of blocking access to contraception, abortion and other icky lady things.

    • Vincent Ricola

      That’s a good point, but I think it may be a non-factor if all women from all states get lumped together into one big pool.

      It’s one thing for an evangelical Mike Pence to play contraception games in a state like Indiana, it’s a whole other thing to try and play those same contraception games in a state like California.

    • Three Finger Salute

      Well, a valid single-payer program needs to include the repeal of the Hyde Amendment. Which is why it’ll never happen. Republicans won’t budge on that, and any Democrat worth their salt isn’t going to concede to having women’s healthcare be lumped in as an out-of-pocket luxury like it was a fucking facelift or something to that effect. But Americans still don’t want “their” tax dollars being used to support “slutty women,” “baby murder,” or other “vices.” Including coverage for HIV-AIDS treatment/prevention and gender reassignment surgeries. So-called “values voters” are still unfortunately a very powerful voting bloc here, in a way they aren’t in other countries. Their only “value” is sadism and hate of the “untermenschen.”

      Not to mention, there’d be riots if immigrants, whether undocumented or not, were allowed to be covered under the plan. Fake Noise would frame it as a “giveaway to illegals” and “Marxist redistribution of wealth.” This bill is going to die because it was sponsored by a self-declared socialist in the first place. Call me Debbie Downer but I’m not optimistic about its prospects just because I know how this sort of thing gets framed by the RWNJ press (which now has control of something like 2/3 of the media, once you include Sinclair).

      • Villago Delenda Est

        Sinclair is just evil.

        You know, like the Koch brothers and the entire fucking DeVos family.

        • TJ Barke

          Fucking capitalist pigdogs.

        • Three Finger Salute

          Good Sinclairs: Maggie (married name Trudeau), and Upton.
          Bad Sinclairs: That fucking Murdoch clone empire.

          Eclairs, however, are always good.

          • Villago Delenda Est

            Mmmm….eclairs…

          • 🛶🗣️ Mr Canoehead 🛶🗣️

            Good Sinclairs: Baby Sinclair. “Not the mama!”

        • Tell me about it.

          My brother is a regional something or other for Sinclair Broadcasting.

          In his mind, if you make alot of money you must be doing something good.

          Oy. There’s a reason why we talk about once every two years.

      • GoutMachine

        Yeah, that’s the thing. In the countries that have single-payer, even the conservative parties are for it. We just have an ultra-evil conservative party par (non)excellence that has turned hatred and sociopathy into an art form.

        • jaspersdad

          This is the result of a two party political system. Everything is red team blue team, even basic human rights.

      • Claire

        It’s a little depressing how often the answer to the question “Why can’t America have this Nice Thing?” is “Because the country’s too fucking racist.”

        • 🛶🗣️ Mr Canoehead 🛶🗣️

          Don’t forget the sexism, fascism, and class war!

    • Brambo412

      Sure, but a lot of people don’t have health insurance at all, and costs are so out of control that a lot of people who technically have it can’t really use their access. More worried about the unnamable creek they’re already up.

  • proudgrampa

    I think I’m in love…

    • OutOfOrbit

      read some of “The Crayon Papers” last night : )

      • proudgrampa

        “When a man of business, therefore, hears on every side rumors of fortunes suddenly acquired; when he finds banks liberal, and brokers busy; when he sees adventurers flush of paper capital, and full of scheme and enterprise; when he perceives a greater disposition to buy than to sell; when trade overflows its accustomed channels and deluges the country; when he hears of new regions of commercial adventure; of distant marts and distant mines, swallowing merchandise and disgorging gold; when he finds joint-stock companies of all kinds forming; railroads, canals, and locomotive engines, springing up on every side; when idlers suddenly become men of business, and dash into the game of commerce as they would into the hazards of the
        faro table; when he beholds the streets glittering with new equipages,
        palaces conjured up by the magic of speculation; tradesmen flushed with sudden success, and vying with each other in ostentatious expense; in a word, when he hears the whole community joining in the theme of “unexampled prosperity,” let him look upon the whole as a “weather-breeder,” and prepare for the impending storm.”

        Damned prescient, if you ask me.

        Thanks for the reference!

        • OutOfOrbit

          one important omission:

          — Washington Irving
          (FIFY)

          • proudgrampa

            Indeed.

  • Skwerl the Nazi Puncher

    Dear politicians,
    I will vote for Satan herself, if he promises single payer heathcare and taco trucks on every corner.

    • Randy Riddle

      And to get rid of Daylight Savings Time.

      • OutOfOrbit

        ARE YOU MAD?!!!

        • h4rr4r

          Spoken like someone who never has to deal with the problems of time.

          Find anyone who knows what tzdata is and get their opinion.

          • OutOfOrbit

            but think of all the cornfuzion that would solve!

          • Villago Delenda Est

            I’ve had to deal with the problems of time; I was the official timekeeper of an entire mechanized infantry battalion. EVERYONE set their watches to mine. The power, it drove me mad!

          • h4rr4r

            That is a tiny sample of the problems of time. Tiny.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tz_database

          • Villago Delenda Est

            The retrograde Saudis screw up everything.

          • h4rr4r

            The retroactive changes are the worst.

            This is why we all use tzdata and don’t try to figure it out ourselves.

          • Villago Delenda Est

            I was doing this before tzdata, and had a world map with the time zones to do my calculating. Good to know how to do this the old fashioned way if your fancy-schmanzy computer gets EMPd to death.

          • h4rr4r

            Yeah, for one small area at a time.

            Without tzdata or similar it really can’t be tracked practically. If there is an EMP of that size, it means nuclear war. What time it is ceases to matter.

            Tzdatabase started in the 80s. Needing to know the exact time in some far away place two years ago, for billing is a rather new need.

          • GoutMachine

            Are you unstuck in time?

          • Vincent Ricola

            *nodding enthusiastically*

        • h4rr4r
      • h4rr4r

        This! SO FUCKING MUCH THIS!

      • MynameisBlarney

        Damn yeah!

      • Beanz&Berryz

        But it’s our Heritage!

      • jesterpunk

        But that was part of W’s energy plan.

      • RMKH

        Keep daylight savings time and get rid of non-daylight savings time. I love the late evening light.

      • ahughes798

        Yes, Yes, Yes! I like it when the sun rises late in the morning!

    • dslindc

      I like your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

    • Gayer Than Thou

      Mandatory gay marriage for college wrestlers, and I’m in.

  • TJ Barke

    Don’t they know this will lead to crushing communism, gulags and purges, just like every single other country with single payer!?

    • Anna Rompage

      Am i the only one here who will be happy when the major opposition is rounded up and locked away in all of those Jade Helm reeducation camps?

      • TJ Barke

        No. Fuck them.

    • Three Finger Salute

      You kid, but they actually do think Merkel is a commie (because she’s from the former East Berlin) and, of course, “Justin Castreau” has a sekrit burp sertifikat that Geraldo’s going to find in Havana. Somehow or another, Macron ended up being both a commie and a wealthy banker. Because quantum Rothschilds.

  • Villago Delenda Est

    The concept of single payer is great.

    How we get there without causing a lot of pain for anyone but health insurance CEOs is the conundrum.

    • Wolf Tracker

      One state at a time.

    • Anna Rompage

      Even if we do have a robust single payer system, most folks are going to want supplemental insurance to provide better and more complete coverage.

      • Villago Delenda Est

        See the Swiss model. Of course, those entities are heavily regulated, which causes “conservatives” to go all snowflake.

        • Anna Rompage

          Germany also comes to mind, a robust public platform with a strong supplemental private insurance program

          • Vagenda of Rebel Scum

            And it’s been around in one form or another since Bismarck’s time.
            The other well worn Wingnut argument “It’s driving European countries bankrupt”. No, our cobbled together system, that contains the worst of everything, is slowly driving us bankrupt.

          • Crystalclear12

            Slowly?

          • Vagenda of Rebel Scum

            The ACA did slow the pace a little.

          • Crystalclear12

            For some.

          • Serai 1

            We’re not bankrupt yet.

          • Rags
          • Vagenda of Rebel Scum

            Graphs and statistics are fake news. Fake news, I say! The truth is what I feel is right! USA! USA!

        • Serai 1

          Gee, it’s almost as if having rules makes things run smoother!

  • Bill D. Burger

    Jill Stein will oppose her and run as the anti-WiFi candidate on the Organic Party ticket. Edward Snowden will be her VP (If Putin will greenlight it.)

    • Anna Rompage

      If only someone could come up with a vaccine that would inoculate us against the ills of Jill “vaccines might cause autism for votes” Stein

      • Bill D. Burger

        All vaccines will be reviewed by Julian Assange in the Stein presidency.

        Which…thank the great Flying Spaghetti Monster will never fucking happen.

    • proudgrampa

      If they win, the only way to make something go viral is with typewriters and carbon paper…

      • Bill D. Burger

        Finally, we will be safe from “…China, could be China,” from hacking our elections and lives.

      • Longstreet63

        Of course, we will not have a vaccine, either.

      • puredog

        Mimeograph machine libelz!

  • Bananas Foster

    OT:
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/31/politics/us-russia-retaliation-orders-closure-consulate/index.html

    US retaliates against Russia ordering closure of consulate and annexes

    This is huge. It includes the consulate in San Fransisco which is the largest Russian consulate in the world and is well known to basically exist only for spying on the military and tech industries.

    • Villago Delenda Est

      Someone at State didn’t get the memo from Putin’s puppet.

    • Vagenda of Rebel Scum

      How hard did Kelly twist Donald’s arm to get him to agree to that?

      • House0fTheBlueLights

        Donald won’t know about it until it hits Fox and Friends.

      • Toomush_Inferesistance

        Shhhh!…

  • Even if we do get it passed and signed by the POTUS, we’re going to have a judiciary full of Federalist Society fuckwits to get it through. I’m sure at least one of them will find that health care for all makes Jesus weep.

    • Longstreet63

      Yes, now that the Republicans are moving to solve the “Judicial Vacancy Crisis” that somehow happened under the Obama administration.

  • jesterpunk

    Even assuming we get single payer passed how do we prevent republicans in congress and in the different states from intentionally sabotaging it and how do we prevent them from attempting to repeal it later? It would need to basically be a constitutional amendment to prevent their ratfucking.

    • GoutMachine

      Outlaw the GOP like the terrorist organization it is?

      • jesterpunk

        Works for me, they keep making a case for that.

        • Three Finger Salute

          “Nazis are bad for PR, but that whole Charlottesville thing was just an isolated incident and we really need to get back to talking about tax cuts.” -Paul Ryan

    • h4rr4r

      Just wait, it will be unkillable.

      Just like the ACA is.

      • Three Finger Salute

        Unkillable maybe. But it’ll limp on as a deformed zombie on life-support, a shell of what it could have been. Especially since certain things are non-negotiable for the two warring factions. Namely: women’s health, coverage for LGBT-specific issues, and not turning undocumented immigrants or refugees away as “illegals” and letting them just die.

        • h4rr4r

          But it will then be replaced again by something more progressive.

          We just need to keep pushing forward.

          • Three Finger Salute

            And replace the Covfeferate statues with memorials to the people who died because they didn’t have coverage. Like sensible countries after the war already started 50-70 years ago.

    • Toomush_Inferesistance

      One surgical procedure at a time…

    • Serai 1

      THIS.

    • Vagenda of Rebel Scum

      One step at a time, and changing attitudes. It may be incremental. It wasn’t that long ago that state were passing initiatives that forbade LGBT marriages, forever and ever. While a lot of states still don’t love it and would forbid it if they could, nobody but the most extreme believe that they’re found to be able to somehow turn back the clock.
      All the old buzzwords- socialized medicine, rationed care, death panels, have faded away. Its going to be an incremental fight, just like with any other social movement.

      • Longstreet63

        You think they’ve given up on gay rights? They haven’t even given up on Jim Crow!

        • Vagenda of Rebel Scum

          I don’t think they’ve given up. But you have to admit that things are not where they were 20 years ago.
          The voting rights struggle is just as much about political persuasion as it is about race. If African Americans voted Republican, they’d be doing everything in their power to get them to the polls. I don’t see any serious discussion in regards to outlawing inter racial marriages, or setting up separate lunch counters or bathrooms.
          I’m not dumb enough to believe that progress is linear- as a matter of fact sometimes the most draconian laws are passed before society takes a big leap forward, nor do I believe that progress is irrevocable, but it does happen and it’s worth fighting for.

          • Toomush_Inferesistance

            Um….there’s some reasons African Americans don’t vote Republican, and I think some of them have something to do with race….

      • jesterpunk

        I dont have much faith in the GOP to not fuck things up out of spite and for voters to sit home because its not perfect then complain about it.

  • Scooby

    I lived in Germany, Austria and France and I never heard anyone complain about thier medical systems. Back in the US everyone complains incessantly about it.

    • Vagenda of Rebel Scum

      And also, I haven’t heard of many European MDs Coming to the US to escape their low pay and terrible working conditions.

      • Serai 1

        Yes, interesting how so many doctors and nurses are perfectly willing to put up with such shitty systems when they could come here to where we have the best in the world, isn’t it?

    • doktorzoom

      In his excellent book on fixing American healthcare, T.R. Reid said there are two universals in Europe: Everyone complains about some aspect of their country’s healthcare system, and then, whatever their shortcomings, they thank God they don’t have the U.S. system

    • Serai 1

      When my sister moved back to the States from Spain with her family, the only worry she had was healthcare. Two small kids and she had no idea how she would deal with it. Spain has universal healthcare, so she’d never had to think about it there at all.

  • Longstreet63

    It’d be nice, but once the Republicans roll out their ad campaign calling it “CommunistCare”, the deplorables will start marching against it…er, Hoverrounding against it.

    • Three Finger Salute

      FDRcare
      Kennedycare
      LBJcare
      Nixoncare (yes, even he wanted Medicare for all)
      Cartercare
      Clintoncare (as in, Bill)
      Obamacare
      Hillarycare (redux, 2008 and ’16)
      Trudeaucare (result: rematch of 1812)

      What’s missing here that’s palatable to the rubes?

      Reagandontcare!

  • Joe Beese

    Charles Pierce:

    I know that it’s very hard to make these cases and all the other excuses we’ve heard why the inherently criminal class that is our financial services sector cannot be prosecuted for their various and sundry offenses. And I know that it doesn’t help with the civility problem we have in our politics to call names. But you’ll pardon me for saying that someone ought to bury the fcking rat bastards at Wells Fargo under the goddamn jail.

    … what we’re dealing with here are 3.5 million individual acts of fraud by Wells Fargo. They opened fake accounts with the real names of their customers, and then charged those customers for the privilege of being defrauded. This seems neither difficult nor complicated. It seems to me that you’d have to transport the RICO indictment on this criminal enterprise by barge.

    http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a57293/wells-fargo-fraug/

  • Msgr_MΩment
  • Snopes Shop

    Berneee invented the idea is single payer healthcare and nothing you can say will prove otherwise

    • ltmcdies

      Say hi to Tommy Douglas, Bernnnie

  • CO
    • President in Exile Firefly

      Maybe Melania then?

      • therblig

        and his wife.

        with toys.

    • Serai 1

      Christ, what a bunch of petty little fuckwads.

  • theblackdog

    The annoying thing is she has always been for single payer, but certain groups just couldn’t accept it until she basically had to spell it out.

  • Serai 1

    *sigh* I hope they don’t end up sinking universal healthcare because of a purity focus on single-payer.

    • Wolf Tracker

      We can have mixed system like European countries use.

      Medicare for all with a basic package and you can buy additional coverage from private insurers.

      • Longstreet63

        Mixed? Clearly you are not a True Pure Liberal! Compromise and pragmatism are the ultimate sins!

      • Three Finger Salute

        The only problem, as stated below, is what gets lumped into “additional coverage” that is necessary, and a lot of people can’t afford, but which the theofascists won’t compromise on (and no Democrat worth their salt will either). I’d hate to see abortion or HIV medications lumped in the same tier as plastic surgery, but that’s what the GOP obstructionists want. These are people’s lives and quality of well-being we’re talking about. Not cable. Nobody ever died, suffered from a horrific but treatable disease, or was forced to give birth to a rape baby, because they didn’t subscribe to HBO. I have no idea how to get around or just ram through the elephant in the room, however.

        • Wolf Tracker

          I think that can be addressed with a single payer system that allows people to buy medications from other approved countries.

          • Parakeetist

            Yeah

      • Serai 1

        That’s what I mean. That’s what most countries with working universal healthcare systems have. A focus on ONLY single-payer will pretty much guarantee that this will never happen.

      • ahughes798

        Thanks for explaining that, because I thought single-payer and Universal were the same thing.

      • Parakeetist

        Yep! I’d go for that.

    • NeoliberalBanksterCaptainHowdy

      The intention is to sink the Democratic Party.

  • Snopes Shop

    How dare Kamala steal Berneeee’s idea?

    • Carpe Vagenda

      Seriously. And after he just got all the Conyers buffed off of it.

    • Marceline

      Yep. The Berniacs are still hating on her because even when she supports an idea they claim to want she’s still a black woman.

      • Pickles

        his support is higher among women and minorities but you keep hating and being irrational

        • Zippy W Pinhead

          Nice job of Berniesplaining to a woman and POC why she is being hateful and irrational about women and minorities.

          LOL, and you fools still can’t figure out why most people- including former Sanders supporters, are tired of your condescending bullshit

          • Pickles

            i’m just saying bernie sanders and his supporters (majority of voted for and supported clinton) aren’t all the same group of people or stereotype. you’re discriminating against good people LOL

          • King Beauregard

            Twelve percent of Bernie voters went on to vote for Trump. That was enough to throw the election his way.

            Bernie taught his droogs to hate, and they learned the lesson well enough to give the country to Trump. Imagine if Bernie had taught them to disagree with Hillary respectfully, then they might have pushed her to victory.

          • Zippy W Pinhead

            Now you’re going to Berniesplain to me what we all just saw you do? LO fucking L!

            Look, clown. I’m one of those Bernie primary voters, as are a good many people here. We don’t need to be lectured about who or what we are.

        • Marceline

          His popularity is steadily dropping but thanks for that input from the Holy Tabernacle of Bernie. And thanks for demonstrating how Berniacs go right for personal attacks when the Holy Father is criticized. That never gets old.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/bb6a8811b948c2e8be73130a42826bb3f8f2c9b02bcd42fc842cdb422d8634d5.jpg

          • Pickles

            lulz you are crazy

          • Marceline

            Excellent comeback, bro.

      • ltmcdies

        Awh…. poor wee bros and their difficulties with the non white penis challenged

      • Serai 1
  • Scooby

    Even China has universal health coverage.

    • Bill D. Burger
      • Moebym of the Returners

        …really, now? -_-

      • Serai 1

        Traditional Chinese medicine has been around for thousands of years. A fuck of a lot longer than Western medicine. Given that people in China do not tend to drop dead of disease by the millions every year, I’d say their system has its merits.

        • Rags

          Here’s some data to not back up your unevidenced assertion:

          China will likely see an increase in the prevalence of lung cancer among its population over the next five years, the state-run China Daily reports. Medical experts told the paper that over 800,000 annual diagnoses and 700,000 annual deaths can be expected by 2020.

          • Serai 1

            Holy fuck, is ANYONE going to stop twisting my words? What the hell does that have to do with the HISTORY of Chinese medicine?

        • ahughes798

          Yeah, they don’t mind making wine out of tigers that they have starved to death, under the assumption that it cures illnesses, or poaching rhino horn/elephant tusks for male potency remedies, or poaching black bears in this country for bear bile, which is supposed to cure things, or caging bears in their country for the exceptionally cruel practice of bile extraction. Chinese medicine is bullshit. If you really want to see something you can’t unsee….google “Tiger Wine.”

          • Serai 1

            Jesus fuck, THAT IS NOT THE POINT I WAS MAKING.

          • Serai 1

            And excuse me, Western medicine is HARDLY able to take a holier-than-thou stance on this subject, seeing how many HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of animals have been hideously tortured just to test drugs (and makeup and household products, etc., etc., etc.) So how about jumping off the OMG THEY DUN B NICE TO ANIMALS bandwagon? Because we have no right to ride on that float, thanks.

          • ahughes798

            I find it abhorrent in Western Medicine, too. There is starting to be less and less need to use animals to test drugs any more, IMO. There is computer modeling. They can test medicines/chemicals at a cellular level now to determine their safety. So all they’d need is a few cells from an animal. But it’s expensive, so animals are still used, unfortunately, and it still pisses me off. The difference between Western and Eastern Traditional medicines is that one is science based, the other is superstition based. There is no science that proves that drinking wine made of the bones of tigers you’ve starved to death is going to increase your sexual prowess.

            At the University I worked at, it was hard to get funding for studies using animals, there are tons of paperwork and government permitting hoops to jump through to get them. The number of animals used were limited. There is also strict governmental oversight on the care and handling of the animals. Animal studies are very expensive, hence the use of computer modeling is starting to be used more and more.

            When I lived in the city, I tried traditional Chinese herbal medicines for a couple of cases of bronchitis. At the very most, they kept me from getting worse. I ended up going to a regular Dr. both times. I realise this is anecdotal, of course. I know people who swear by herbal medicines. Which makes sense, because some plants do have medicinal properties. Foxglove(Digitalis)is one, and there are many, many more.

  • TheGrandWazoo2

    I’m single. Pay me.

  • what, me worry?

    More like good politics.

    Just like the Good Democrats of California, Harris will be in favor of single payer, as long as it doesn’t have a snowball’s chance in Hell of getting passed in a Republican Congress. Let it start getting traction, and again, just like her friends in California, she’ll back away PDQ.

    With a wheel barrow-full of Insurance and Pharma dollars in tow.

  • La forza del resistino

    Try explaining single payer to a Repub and see if you get past the ‘what if you’re married’ question

    • President in Exile Firefly

      For them, there’s married payer.

      • Three Finger Salute

        But only straight-married payer.

      • Toomush_Inferesistance

        No no no- the spouse pays!…

  • Marceline

    Maybe now the talk shows will have her on to talk about healthcare instead of Bernie’s crusty ass.

    • Serai 1

      If I never hear that fucker’s name again, it’ll be too goddamned soon.

      • Pickles

        Bernie 2020

        • Serai 1

          There’s a fucking nightmare for you. I’d like someone in the WH who lives in the real world, thanks.

          • Marceline

            I doubt Bernie is stupid enough to try running again. (I could be wrong because he continues to reach new levels of stupidity.) But unlike the Berniacs, I’m not fixated on 2020. There’s a whole lot of races between now and then that need our attention especially in the states but these desperately precious dildos can’t be bothered to think about anything but giving pop-Pop another shot at the gold.

          • Persistent Demme

            Damn, I heart you!

          • Marceline

            Aww thanks. Hating on Bernie has kind of become a specialty of mine. The minute he called Planned Parenhood the establishment, he made an enemy of me for life.

          • Serai 1

            They’re the epitome of the kind of voter that allowed this fucking situation to build up over the last fourty years. Too precious to sully themselves with campaigns for school boards or mayors. No, only THE REALLY QUALITY ELECTIONS for these egotistical snowflakes.

        • Chyron HR

          Go ahead, we’ll all have a good chuckle on January 1 when he suddenly decides that he wants to be a member of the Democratic party again (for the next 7 months).

          • Pickles

            i wish we had another option as far as parties go but yes democrats and the left have to learn to work together. and that means running the most popular candidate with the most popular ideas

        • jesterpunk
  • Résistance Land Shark Ω

    Kamala Harris kicks ass. So does Kirsten Gillibrand. That is all.

    • sgt. jmk of the résistance

      So proud that Kirsten’s my senator. I really was skeptical of her – an upstater who was tagged as pro-gun? No, thanks! – but she’s really impressed me.

      • Résistance Land Shark Ω

        Pro-gun put me off her in the beginning, also too. The tune has changed, however.

      • Persistent Demme

        And I’m proud of Kamala!

        They are like shining lights in these days of darkness.

        • sgt. jmk of the résistance

          Indeeeeeeeeed they are.

      • ahughes798

        I think the pro-gun thing as a disqualifier is picking the wrong battle about guns with regards to rural and farming areas. Of course, farmers have guns. They have them for many reasons, none of which has to do with fear of government tyranny. My cousins always had rifles in rifle case in the living room. They are normal, sane people. Sometimes you need to shoot wandering dogs/raccoons/opossums that are killing your chickens. Sometimes a horse will break it’s leg…and the vet can’t get there for 2 hours, and you either let the animal freak out and suffer for two hours, or you do the right thing and put it down yourself, hard as it is. Sometimes you hunt on your own land for a deer to butcher and put in the deep freezer for winter. Or you take one of the cattle you’ve raised for the same purpose. Because when you’re a small, independent farmer, money is always tight. I don’t have a problem with those kinds of gun use, or for people who actually eat what they kill. I understand Kirsten’s stance on guns, considering who she was representing.

        • sgt. jmk of the résistance

          I do get that, and I know that while I may hate guns like fire, people do use them responsibly and for reasons that aren’t Ted-Nugentish, but for me, there’s a line between “representing rural realities” and “cozying up to the NRA,” and I was a bit suspicious of where Kirsten fell on that line.
          Turns out, I needn’t have worried.

        • Ms.Moon

          I learned that people in bear country have them because sometimes bears wander into houses and do not want to leave after eating everything in the refrigerator. Bears can carry an entire adult human off I am all for guns in bear country. I personally have no use for them but I don’t have anything against other people owning them.

    • Parakeetist

      Yes

  • pgjack

    I agree with the premise but Sen. Harris (my senator) needs to point out that this is a very complex issue. Replacing insurance companies and all their employees is not simple, finding a way for the government to fund this changeover is not simple and hospitals, doctors, nurses and other healthcare providers need a say in this matter. Most other major nations have universal healthcare but it has been implemented in different ways This needs to be studied. Sen. Harris should be cautious about jumping aboard the Bernie express because his followers are becoming one issue voters and that is not a good thing. Sen, Harris needs to communicate the complexity of this matter to the American people. Bernie has not done so.

    • Longstreet63

      So true! What we need is a blue ribbon panel of Insurance execs and lobbyists to work out a solution in cooperation with a bipartisan house committee.

      • keinsignal

        Jesus christ I just had this sarcasm meter recalibrated and you had to go and blow it up again.

      • Vagenda of Rebel Scum

        I think it’s naive to believe that we can somehow simply cut the insurance industry, as powerful as it is, out of the picture.
        Look at how powerful the arms manufacturers, the alcohol, and the tobacco industries are, and they all sell things that kill people. I don’t think you can say “Well have single payer and they’ll just go away, and we’ll all live happily ever after”.

        • Marceline

          Plus there are actual human beings who put food on the table working for insurance companies. What’s supposed to happen to them?

          • Vagenda of Rebel Scum

            Thank you.I’m not a big believer in the merits of disruption.

          • Serai 1

            The only people who love disruption are people who won’t be affected by it.

          • Serai 1

            Why, they can just join the wonderful gig economy!

          • what, me worry?

            Think of the poor beleaguered buggy whip manufacturers, for heaven’s sake!!!

          • sgt. jmk of the résistance

            Not just them, but the medical billers who staff doctors’ practices and hospitals, the admins who support that staff, the suppliers who keep all the insurance offices and doctors’ offices in paper and ink cartridges and forms and coffee supplies and software… they’ll ALL be affected… many will be unemployed… businesses will go bankrupt.

            But let’s not worry about them, because magic will take care of it.

          • what, me worry?

            Think about all that the next time you go to an ATM machine.

            SMDH.

            Matter of fact, let’s destroy the internet, because it kills local businesses. What about them?!?!?

          • sgt. jmk of the résistance

            Why are you talking?

          • what, me worry?

            Because you actually claimed that a good reason to not make a terrible thing obsolete are the people who work for the terrible thing. It’s clearly asinine. And hypocritical, if you didn’t also complain about all the poor bank tellers losing their jobs.

            You didn’t? Then STFU.

          • sgt. jmk of the résistance

            Yep, yep, that sure is exactly the same thing – a single advance in technology impacting the people working at one job and the premeditated, intentional wiping out of 1/5 of the economy all at once.

            Why, that’s why it makes perfect sense to advocate doing it in one fell swoop without first taking a good hard look at how to do it! I’m sure it will be fine!

            You have no idea what I complained about or didn’t complain about, you utterly tedious one-note fuckwit.

            So piss off. You’re a bore and a full-on nasty asshat.

          • what, me worry?

            Maybe all those 800k or so insurance workers could get jobs in the industries that the 1 million+ union manufacturing workers were supposed to transition to when their jobs were callously offshored by the past three Presidents’ free trade agreements?
            It seems to me that you, nor the Democratic Establishment, cared about their fate at the time. Could it be because those industries wated to dump those jobs and Democrats don’t give a shit about unions anymore?
            Gee. That seems calculated.

          • sgt. jmk of the résistance

            Just stop. You are very bad at thinking.

            You’re bad at a lot of things… like recognizing facts and not responding to straw-men of your own making… but in my opinion, the thing you’re worst at is thinking.

            You’ve proven that with every splenetic, ignorant, idiotic post you’ve made on here.

            Just go the fuck away. Don’t you have some donuts to protest or something?

          • what, me worry?

            Gee, seems like we touched a nerve… You were out there arguing to save the jobs of the 1 million+ manufacturing workers who were displaced through offshoring, right?

            I mean, to be consistent with your current argument, that we can’t get rid of a crappy for-profit healthcare regime because it will cost the jobs of people who work for the crappy providers, you’d also have to oppose free trade agreements when they would also cause massive job losses.

            What’s that? You mean you weren’t worried about those jobs? Just these jobs?

            Hmmm. I wonder what the difference is?

          • sgt. jmk of the résistance

            Here you go, cupcake… I’m sorry there aren’t more pictures to keep your interest, but let me know if you need help with some of the big words:

            http://www.cracked.com/blog/a-zero-b.s.-guide-to-american-healthcare/

          • what, me worry?

            I know when I’m looking for an authoritative source, I always turn to Cracked.com too.

          • sgt. jmk of the résistance

            I thought it might be too erudite for you.

            Please do tell what parts you found to be inaccurate, there’s a good sea lion.

          • Sakonyachen

            There are actual human beings who don’t have a house to put a table in to put the food on because they got sick. The insurance company decided they weren’t viable. So when society is tired of this we are supposed to say that we should think of the insurance company employees? Maybe when less people spend their entire check on staying alive, they’ll have money to buy some stuff, the actual job creators.

          • Marceline

            I don’t dispute that but the idea that you can get rid of an entire industry without dealing with the fallout is ridiculous. Just like coal jobs (and soon truck drivers when autonomous vehicles become common) we need to address what happens to the people in these industries when they go away.

          • Sakonyachen

            It’s not like the process of paying for medical care is going to vanish, there just won’t be the glut that there is now. The automation of other industries Is a whole different animal, single payer or Medicare for all are still going to be full of red tape. Supplemental insurance will still be a thing as well. I doubt the fallout will be untenable.

        • Serai 1

          It’s not just naive, it’s delusional.

        • Pickles

          how do you feel about coal jobs? or automation taking over factory jobs. we have to do something and we can also address jobs lost to the insurance industry at the same time.

          • Vagenda of Rebel Scum

            Ah, the buggy whip argument. It may be that insurance industry jobs may go away over time, or at least some of them will. I’m only saying that it’s naive to cut them out of the discussion and pretend they won’t exist from day one. Kaiser is not going to go away. They are a huge presence in California and in fact provide Medicare to a lot of patients. Blue cross/Blue Shield also provides Medicare and will not go quietly. As a matter of fact, I’m not even sure how you would even start to provide “Medicare for All” without including these companies.
            Here’s another thought- There’s a lot of people out there (I’m not saying you) who are yelling “Medicare for all!” Without the slightest idea how Medicare actually works, how much it costs, or what it covers. They just know that old people like it and everyone recognizes it, so maybe it has the best chance of working.

        • jowgajen

          The actual jobs don’t go away. A large part of what insurers do is actually necessary.

          • Zippy W Pinhead

            It’s still going to be messy as hell. You can’t just wave a magic wand and say “you work for the government now”. Not to mention, most of the people with jobs that won’t be transferable are precisely the ones in charge now and who have the most clout.

          • jowgajen

            Yes. But we have to do it. And it’s just never going to happen if we don’t start talking about it, start working on plans, and start selling the idea in order to build up the political will to get it done. At *some* point there will be a power adjustment between the corporations and the people. How it happens is up to us — grindy, boring, and peaceful political process is the only choice that doesn’t involve violence.

          • Zippy W Pinhead

            We definitely need to do it- we just need to temper the expectations that it can be done overnight.

          • Rags

            Not so sure – there is immense overhead in administering our patchwork system.

          • jowgajen

            There is. And the overall percentage of our GDP that we are spending on healthcare is untenable. There is absolutely going to be a reduction in the profitability of the health care industry for some capitalists.

            But there will be lots of great, rewarding, good paying jobs that cannot be outsourced and that you will actually like going to and feel good about having done when you retire. And an American healthcare system will still have areas where innovations and markets are encouraged through capitalist opportunities.

    • jesterpunk

      Other countries went with single payer a while ago before they had a private insurance industry like the US has.

      • Serai 1

        Most other countries went with a combination of government and private insurance.

      • sgt. jmk of the résistance

        I keep trying to make that point to the “it’s easy! Let’s just do what the UK did!” crowd, but they just don’t seem to get it.

        • jesterpunk

          But you just need the right magic words and it will happen here. But it better be perfect right away or they will stay home in the next election. Although even if it is perfect they might stay home because of another purity test.

      • Permit-holder Ron

        Canada had private insurers before universal health care came in – the biggest by far was Blue Cross, but there were (and still are) others. I think the transition was easier because a) it was a half-century ago, b) because we have a smaller population, and c) it was left to the individual provinces to implement, so it was to a great extend customisable.
        The insurance companies are still around. They simply switched to covering things that the regular health care system doesn’t cover, like dental and vision care, and prescriptions – and even there, the provinces cover that too, for the lowest-income people.

      • Kooolest G

        switzerland did it in 1994, Taiwan in 1995, the bahamas did it in 2016, before that people in those countries just payed doctors with chickens I guess

    • Marceline

      She’s not jumping aboard the Bernie Express. She’s ripping this issue out from under him and neutralizing the purity test his mob is trying to inflict on her.

      • what, me worry?

        Or… She’s realized there is no risk in getting on board with a popular issue as long as it has zero chance of passing in a Republican Congress. Her Insurance and Pharma donors are safe.

        Let it get any kind of traction at all, and watch her sprain her ankle from the speed with which she backs away from it.

        After all, there are donors to appease. She’s a politician, not an activist.

        • sgt. jmk of the résistance

          Yup, yup, now that she’s done what you ponies demanded, you get to bitch she did it the wrong way or for the wrong reasons.

          https://media.giphy.com/media/Rhhr8D5mKSX7O/giphy.gif

          • what, me worry?

            Watch this space.

            Anthony Rendon claimed to be an advocate for single payer for years, then killed it in California once it had a path forward.

            It isn’t an unusual condition, to be for progressive things as long as you don’t think they can pass.

          • sgt. jmk of the résistance

            Context. It’s a thing.

            Lost on you, of course, but still a thing.

          • Jesse

            He tabled the bill because the cost of it clocked in at double the entire state budget. Dream all you like, a size 42 posterior can’t – not won’t, but CAN’T – fit into a size 22 pair of pants.

          • what, me worry?

            your reply is moronic in two separate ways.

            1. Any tax is a bargain if it prevents the citizens from having to spend even more on private insurance. The cost figure is irrelevant, as long as it is less that the cost of similar private policies. And historically, single payer is always cheaper. So, you know… Red herring.

            2. That’s not what Rendon said. He claimed he tabled it because it didn’t deal with the constitutional amendment that would be required to prevent a torrent of money from having to be diverted to education. Which is bullshit.

            It could be done without the amendment. Simply merge the dept of education with health and human services, and the money can be collected and spent on healthcare without having to change the constitution. It’s an easy solution that would have provided California with a working single payer system.

            He chose to table the bill because of the cash.

          • Sakonyachen

            He did choose to table the bill because of the cash. Cash as in, we don’t have half of that, and we have other bills to pay. Not sure what part of that is moronic? Money is an abstract for sure, the fact that it gets used to say we can’t do things that are obviously doable is absurd. That being said, it is the condition we have to deal with right now. How about instead of complaining about someone who is at the minimum paying lip service to our ideas, you try organizing people to raise money or raise hell to keep these people on the same path? Harris is the least of our enemies my friend.

          • what, me worry?

            Once again, that is a red herring. Any single payer bill would raise the appropriate taxes to pay for it. Given that single payer has proven cheaper to implement in every country that does so, the increase in taxes will be more than offset by the decrease in medical expenses for the citizens. Saying, “we don’t have the money” is a cop out.

          • Sakonyachen

            I get what you’re saying about the appropriate taxes, unfortunately people have been led to believe that taxes are worse than the return of Hitler. This is probably where the hamstringing comes from.

        • jesterpunk

          How do you think shit gets done? Politicians have to actually pass bills to do things. Its not from some assholes screaming we want this or else we will sit home with our thumbs up our asses because its not perfect.

          • what, me worry?

            Sure, because as I remember it, women got the right to vote because male congress critters just organically decided it was the right thing to do all on their own. I don’t think any women actually got involved and agitated for change, did they? Nah. It was just those great politicians who effected that change.

            That’s how the Civil Rights Act got passed too, right? I mean, Martin Luther Who?

            And Union organizers had no impact at all on labor rights. I’m sure you would have gotten an 8 hour work day, a weekend, paid sick leave and a vacation without all that….

            Let’s all genuflect to the noble politician, who just does the right thing. All the time. With no external pressure at all.

          • jesterpunk

            But none of that was 100% perfect so it doesnt count.

          • what, me worry?

            Actually, not being exactly perfect was Rendon’s reason for killing single payer in California. Let’s not work on it. Let’s just kill it.

            Oh, hi Mr. Insurance Lobbiest, yes, I did drop that enormous check!

            Not working to make things better is an attribute of your tribe, not mine.

          • jesterpunk

            We tried to make health care better and voted for someone with actual real plans to do that. But it wasn’t good enough for you assholes so it didnt matter. Kamala Harris supports single payer and its not good enough for you assholes because reasons.

          • what, me worry?

            Yet, it’s single payer, not incremental tweaks to the ACA to make sure an additional 0.2% of the nation gets shitty private health insurance, that is being discussed.

            That must kill you.

          • jesterpunk

            Buzzwords isn’t an actual plan it’s just nice talking points, you Bernie bros don’t have a plan on how to implement single payer and how to keep republicans from sabotaging it like they did with the ACA.

          • what, me worry?

            Shame on you for accusing St. Kamala of falling for buzzwords and marketing hype.

            Or… Are you saying she’s not sincere in her support? Heaven forfend!!

          • Marceline

            Exactly. The Berniacs don’t care about policies. They care about Bernie and only Bernie. The other good thing about this is that it exposes them for the hypocrites they are.

          • what, me worry?

            Actually, we care about policy. The only people who keep bringing Sanders up here is you lot, because you still can’t soothe that Bern.

            I’m all for the Chuck Schumer’s and Kamala Harris’ of the world voting for single payer. If they do, it proves that a shoo-in President who loses to a clown shoe huckster actually scared Democrats into listening to the constituents for half a second, rather than voting the straight corporate donor line.

            And, if it ever gets any traction, and they back away from it, as I suspect they will, it proves they are lying to you for your votes.

            But I forgot. Democrats are comfortable being lied to. It’s your natural condition.

          • Jesse
          • jesterpunk
          • Parakeetist

            Amen.

          • I suspect the problem is that too many voters (Millenials, because i guess I am now An Old. Get off my damn lawn!) now expect politics to resemble an Internet forum, where your words speak louder than actions and you don’t have to have your grandiose speechifying weighed under the burdens of accomplishment or responsibility (“ooh, mommy he said the ‘r’ word!”)

          • jesterpunk

            They also want instant perfect results when nothing in government is instant and you have to compromise to get anything done.

          • Sakonyachen

            I’d say it’s both, but when the politicians agree to our demands and are shit on by the people demanding it, we have no reason to blame politicians.

        • Also, yes that’s right. She IS a politician not an activist That should be the case for ANYONE that’s charged with getting strident activist passion into workable policy. See, politicians are NOT there just to “take a stand” (“WE” can do that!) They are there to trasform public needs into actual accomplishment.

        • TEX Dept. of Space Tacos

          i knew this was coming – this was one of your big complaints about her!

          Now she’s onboard, wtf?

          • what, me worry?

            I’m expressing my belief that, as an establishment Dem with corporate underwriting, her donors would object to her actually signing onto something as lefty and anti-free market as single payer. I believe that she’s pantomiming support as long as the bill has no chance of passing, in order to shore up her progressive cred, but if the bill ever gets traction, she’ll be nowhere to be found.

            That’s my belief.

          • TEX Dept. of Space Tacos

            I thought you said the bill could totally pass! If only politicians were to support it!

            Seriously, that’s what you said.

          • what, me worry?

            In order to have serious consideration it would need advocacy from one of the two political branches of government. It would need to either be pushed from the legislative branch, or the executive branch would need to whip support for it.

            Clearly, the Ryan/McConnell led Congress would burn the place to the ground before they signed onto any model that doesn’t screw the poor.

            And just as clearly, Trump isn’t interested in any policy that doesn’t personally benefit Trump.

            What I did say was, had the Democrats had the wisdom to support and nominate a real reformer who could appeal to the anti-establishment animus that animated this past election cycle, we’d have an advocate for Single Payer in the White House right now, and in that event, the external pressure of mass demonstration could push Congress into passing some form of single payer.

            You chose to paraphrase that into, “single payer could totally pass” I’m not saying your distillation of my more nuanced position is dishonest. You just left a lot of it out.

        • Sakonyachen

          Or… We could show support for someone who champions the things most Americans want and stop saying everyone who sees an idea whose time has come is not a false flag?

          Nah, we should keep spraining our ankles jumping at the chance to condemn them so we can wonder why centrists don’t listen to us.

          After all, there’s a revolution to think of, not actual progress.

          • what, me worry?

            Sorry, but I’ve been jaded by Anthony Rendon’s betrayal, and have deep reservations about a politician as willing as Harris has been to defend corruption, and to argue, as her office did, against prison reform because prisoners are such a great source of cheap labor.

            The evidence that she’s finally been enlightened has to be a bit more convincing than conveniently supporting doomed legislation to shore up her left flank.

          • Sakonyachen

            I was a communist in the eighties. The reason I don’t promote the ideals anymore isn’t because I changed my mind about the ideals. It’s because people like to tear down the enemy when they come around to any small part of looking out for the worker. Even if they are full of shit, you have to take the chance they may not be full of shit. Support their initiative while condemning everything else they stand for that you are against. If they turn out to be full of shit, they have put themselves out way too far if they had support for the idea. Then they fall off like old scabs. Or, they actually succeed in doing what the people wanted. Cynicism is not a very good strategy unless you want to be fat, drunk and alone like I was for about a decade.

          • what, me worry?

            Single Payer is a major plank in the platform of the Democratic Party of California. The Democrats own a super majority in the California State House, and they own the governor’s mansion. The current Governor has been a vocal advocate of single payer for decades.

            And yet, when the rubber meets the road, they kill the bill that could make it a reality. No objection from the governor. No objection from the rank and file in the legislature.

            This is the kind of shit that gives me trust issues.

      • ltmcdies

        Yes she is and well done, Sen Harris. First thing I thought after “excellent” was. “Your service, bros”

      • Serai 1

        I hope she succeeds. Maybe she’ll be able to break the back of this stupid Purity Pony bullshit.

      • jowgajen

        It’s also just politically savvy as a Senator for California, where single payer is and idea that is quickly rising in popularity.

      • Persistent Demme

        God, I hope so.

      • NeoliberalBanksterCaptainHowdy

        One can only hope.

    • eka

      sadly, we’ve learned that pointing out complexity is exactly how you lose votes. vague statements with no policy backing are what get people excited.

  • Persistent Demme

    Nationally, this will fail.
    But statewide…

    • The Librarian

      Sadly, CA’s got tabled this time around.

      • Persistent Demme

        But they’re laying the groundwork, and getting people used to the idea.

        • The Librarian

          Yes, I think you’re right. The federal bill would be much better, of course, but if it fails as well, it might prove to be a catalyst for the state

        • mfp, all 6s&7s&9s

          exactly

  • thegirlwiththekittentattoo

    Hi everyone! Just want to remind you all that Harris was SF’s ag when Gavin Newsom implemented universal health care here. It is paid for with a restaurant surcharge, which is not ideal, but everyone who lives or works here gets some form of coverage or reimbursement and mandatory sick pay. The City was sued over the program by a group of restaurant owners and won. Feel free to nit-pick the details of the proposal, but please don’t fall for the rhetoric that health care is a new issue for her. She’s not just jumping on the bandwagon.

    I have had several private plans over the years, and those reimbursements have saved me thousands of dollars in medical expenses. I broke an arm once and walked away paying zero dollars and zero cents thanks to Healthy San Francisco.

    • Serai 1

      I’m very glad to hear that. So there’ll be someone who knows what the fuck they’re talking about on this thing. That’s much more comforting!

    • Portia McGonagal

      Thank you for that because there is a faction on the left that will spin it just as you said.

  • georgiaburning

    This is a good move for all Dems. We can kvetch about the details, but the very first step is to move the debate from “how many people should we take coverage from?” to “how can we make certain that everyone has coverage?” Donnie promised cheap and wonderful health care coverage during his merch selling tours, after all. We can help it come true.

  • ManchuCandidate

    “But how can we lord our power over the poors?”
    -dismayed 1%ers in US Amercia.

  • Bitter Scribe

    To me single payer is like legalizing marijuana: a wonderful and eminently sensible idea that will never happen in my lifetime.

    • Portia McGonagal

      Hey now I live in one of the legal marijuana states and more are following (whether Jefferson Beauregard Sessions likes it or not) .

      • NastyBossetti

        Meanwhile, my state is still struggling with allowing us to buy beer in grocery stores.

        • Portia McGonagal

          UT?

          • NastyBossetti

            PA

          • mailman27

            I used to live right over the line from PA in northern DE, and I can back you up 100% that PA liquor laws are effed up.

          • jesterpunk

            We just got some stores that can sell beer but they have to have a special beer cash register only for beer sales and they can only sell it during certain hours.

          • NastyBossetti

            “You don’t want your beer money mixing in with your grocery money inside the register! That’s as icky as 2 boys kissing!” – PA State legislators, probably.
            We’re slowly, slowly, ever so slowly, inching toward more rational liquor laws.

          • Portia McGonagal

            Wow that surprises me but then I remember that it wasn’t that long ago we could only buy wine and beer in the grocery store…everything else…state run liquor stores.

      • Rags

        Don’t get yur hopes up. There is no Congressional prohibition on the Feds prosecuting recreational marijuana use as there is for medical marijuana. Beauregard can come knocking any time he wants; and I think he will.

        • Jesse

          That’s when you call the state police and tell them there’s a bitchy keebler elf making a scene and you’d like him removed.

        • Portia McGonagal

          Oh I don’t doubt it. Our AG is already ready to fight.

      • Maybe

        So you won’t end up in a state jail. I hear the federal ones are much nicer.

      • Bitter Scribe

        That’s right, make me jealous.

        I live in Illinois. The only thing that might make them go for it is that they really, REALLY need the money. (It’s why video poker is all over the place.)

    • Pickles

      so we should keep running on incremental solutions and keep losing to republicans

      • Zippy W Pinhead

        Mighty fine straw man you’ve erected there. Can’t wait until you knock it down and crow triumphantly about your victory

      • Maybe

        Incremental solutions is how we got most of our core social programs. Both SS and Medicare have evolved a lot over time and those incremental improvements are worth a lot.

        So let’s just focus on not losing to Repubs, okay?

      • Bitter Scribe

        We’ll keep losing to Republicans no matter what. There are too many stupid people in this country who vote, and too many rich ones who give to PACs.

      • NeoliberalBanksterCaptainHowdy

        And you are clearly one of the people who keeps making that happen. Happy yet?

    • Persistent Demme

      Depends on your lifetime.
      Could you have imagined gay marriage 20 years ago?
      Ten years ago?

      (But don’t mind me. The glass is always half full. *sigh*)

    • Jesse

      The left coast has legalized marijuana. Its only a matter of time for the rest of the country.

      • Maybe

        I agree, but it might not happen in a straight line. Marijuana is still illegal at the federal level and the penalties can be severe. We may have some setbacks under the current administration. Some lives may be destroyed.

    • Sakonyachen

      I used to say the same about a Black President. Then I got one, for eight years. So I started voting. Well, that and so when people told me if I don’t vote I can’t complain, I could say, “Well chucklefuck! I did vote! So sit in the dunce chair and get comfortable, cause I have many years of complaining to catch up on.

  • The Librarian

    I’ve been tracking Mr. Conyers’s bill and unfortunately, it will die an ignoble death (zero has happened since introduction). Of course, this happened before the O’care repeal itself croaked. Best wishes to a new bill and may it pass swiftly.

    • Serai 1

      Geçmiş olsun, indeed.

    • Maybe

      It won’t happen as long as the Repubs control the House. Ryan wouldn’t even bring it up for a vote. Check out the nasty Repub Hastert rule; it embodies minority rule.

  • Chyron HR

    Nice try, K-Hizzle, but the Berniecrats don’t want you to agree with their positions, they want you to die (with votes).

    • Persistent Demme

      Fat chance!!

  • Raan

    You know what? Fuck it, let’s try it. At the very worst, it’ll force Republicans to say on the record that they don’t actually want everyone to have healthcare.

    • Jesse

      “You know what? Fuck it, let’s try it.”

      Best argument, Raan wins. ☺

    • Maybe

      I thought they already had, in word and action.

  • WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot

    DID SOMEBODY SAY PIE? I love pie. Let’s have some right now. Coconut’s my favorite…at the moment…maybe Medicare for all would be a nice change of pace?

    • Vagenda of Rebel Scum

      This was my rant down thread, and in fact I need to educate myself because I’ll be Medicare age before I know it. A lot of people are saying “Medicare for all” without actually knowing how Medicare works, what it covers, and how much it actually costs a middle class retiree. ( I’m not saying you, you could be very knowledgeable) They just know that Americans like it and might accept it better. It might not be best for single payer.

      • WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot

        You’re right about my ignorance. I think of it as a metaphor for single payer.

        • Vagenda of Rebel Scum

          Mine too and it’s going to directly affect my life- if I’m still around or it’s still around…

      • Maybe

        People pay into Medicare during their working lives, so it is an entitlement. There is a monthly charge for Medicare once you sign up. It can be taken out of SS if people are on that.

        Medicare pays roughly 80% of medical costs. Most people will likely take out a supplemental plan to cover the rest. These plans are from private companies, but are designed and regulated by Medicare. For example, a Plan F from one company covers the same things as a Plan F from another.

        Medicare does not cover dental or vision unless you buy a Medicare Advantage plan that includes those.

        There is also a Medicare prescription plan created under George W. Bush. It’s not very good, but better than nothing. The plans are private and not defined by Medicare. If you don’t sign up as soon as you’re eligible you can sign up later but will pay a penalty.

        Medicare works well if you choose correctly. My recent cataract surgery cost me $16.50. Of course I’m paying for Medicare and a supplemental plan every month.

        • Vagenda of Rebel Scum

          Thank you. Currently I’m getting retiree healthcare through CALPERS which ain’t cheap, but is a much better deal than what I could get on the exchanges. They also offer Medicare plans that are reasonably priced.

          • Maybe

            Medicare plus a supplemental is definitely cheaper than paying medical bills if you have anything serious. I chose the top level supplemental. It costs a bit more, but I figured if I ever got really sick I wouldn’t want to have to worry about bills. The government has a great site describing the plans.

  • gene108

    Meh…for me the goal is universal coverage…

    Whether we get their through single payer or a better regulated insurance market place doesn’t matter to me.

    I’m good either way.

    • Marceline

      Yeah, that’s what works my nerves about this debate. We can’t have a nuanced discussion about what kind of system would be most effective for this country because too many people on both sides are just screaming slogans “Single Payer!” “Medicare for All!” “Socialized medicine!” “Government takeover of healthcare!”

    • Maybe

      One problem with our current system is the huge number of different systems. Administrative costs eat up a lot of health care money. Paperwork is a nightmare since very system is different. Medicare is comparatively cheap to administer. We could save a fortune by going to a single system.

      The easiest way to do that is Medicare for All. Why create a whole new single payer system when we already have one?

  • UncleTravelingMatt

    I has confusion. Doesn’t Bernie introducing a bill that doesn’t have a single co-sponsor automatically enact a single-payer system?

    • jesterpunk

      Bernie just mentioning it makes it true as long as no one who isnt pure agrees with him. Someone not pure kills any plans Bernie says.

      • Maybe

        Sound a lot like Repub philosophy. The ACA was their plan until the Dems started backing it.

        • Old Man Yells at Cloud

          And the Dem’s foolishly let it be known as ObamaCare. You would have thought they might have learned from the HillaryCare debacle nearly 20 years earlier. They should have called it AMERICAre. Then to attack it the republicans would have to attack something with AMERICA in the name.

          • Maybe

            Agreed. They also let the “death panels” smear fly.

            But their biggest mistake was simply not defending the major health care expansion they had passed. They should not only have done this, but gone on the attack and demanded the Repubs come up with a better plan if they could.

            We need less wimpy Dems. There’s a chance we’re getting a few.

            I have noted recently that some self-named progressives are starting to label Kamala Harris as a “Corporate Democrat.” This is the same smear they used against Clinton. It needs to be stopped now.

      • C4TWOMAN

        Ouch, lethal snark.

        • Sakonyachen

          Lethal, and accurate.

  • Lefty Wright

    One problem is that Conyer’s bill is very vague in how reimbursements are to be set and even more vague about revenue sources. Everything to do with revenue starts with an unnamed additional tax, a “modest” tax, or a small tax,but no numbers.
    https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/676/text#toc-H87F6F4A93DE34DF5B9F91798A4C464A7

    Ultimately, some type of universal health care will be more efficient and obviously cover more people, but projections of 30% to 50% savings are ridiculous. There are many reasons for the high cost of US health care, administrative costs being only one, and no where near saving 30% of costs. You have the public demand that every test be done for their sprained ankle, that 80 year old mom with terminal cancer and expected to live only two more months get that heart surgery that may kill her anyway, and of course, the high drug prices that even Europe is facing. Rapidly rising health care costs are affecting every country.

    If you start looking at systems like Britain’s, you will see that without government support of maintaining high quality, services deteriorate. The NHS is in a crisis state now, without the resources needed to care for their population. A problem further fueled by Brexit fears of the low paid staff from poorer eastern EU countries being forced to leave. So without consistent support by the government and the will to fund treatment through taxes, you will see serious backlogs and inattention.

    As Trump finally realized, and quickly forgot, health insurance (and health care) is very complicated. It will take a lot of work to actually get a Medicare for All bill written and passed. And although it will help, it will not cut health care costs in half. Anyone expecting this to be a snap is going to be seriously disappointed. And the most ardent will turn around and blame the people trying to get things improved, meaning a victory for the GOP. In the mean time, don’t let this issue distract from getting the ACA fixed. Because Medicare for All will take years of finagling and hard work just to get out of congress, and additional years to set regulations and guidelines. Original Medicare did, so did the ACA, and they affected mainly people with no health insurance. Doing this with everyone and replacing dozens of health insurance and health care systems will take even longer.

    Read the Conyers bill, and if Sanders can actually get a more detailed bill out by September, check that too and see if it is ready to hit the shelves or is mainly platitudes and qualifiers like modest, great, or everybody. In the mean time, 90% of people are insured, and many of the people not insured are there voluntarily. Let’s not abandon the 90% until we get a better, workable solution. Otherwise, up to 30 million people may find their insurance cut for years while we work on Medicare for All.

  • Maybe

    Please, please, please call it Medicare for All. Medicare is well known and well liked.

    Single Payer is open to interpretation and the Repub are really good at demonizing things. Look what they did to the ACA. Let’s not give them the chance. If they fight single payer let them fight it under the name Medicare, which has built-in defenders.

    On a related note, I’m starting to see attacks against Harris as being a “Corporate Democrat.” Sound familiar. The same smear was used against Clinton and it did a lot of harm. Even some progressives picked it up, though I suspect a few of the people calling themselves progressives were really Repub trolls or Russian bots.

    Dems really need to message better and part of that is stopping Repubs cold when they play name-games to try to demonize an idea or a person.

    • Rags

      Yes – even if it doesn’t end up looking a lot like current Medicare, the brand is powerful – might be even stronger than ‘Death Taxes’ or ‘Patriot Act.’

      • Maybe

        I think the Dems should also emphasize the huge savings we would achieve by getting rid of all the multiple administration/paperwork systems and using just one. That money saved could be used to pay for actual healthcare.

    • jesterpunk

      Its not just republicans attacking her as a “Corporate Democrat’ we also have the Bernie “our revolution” people using the same attack.

      • Maybe

        Well, we have people who claim to be Bernie “our revolution” people doing it. We don’t have any way of knowing who they really are. We do know that in 2016 there was a massive, targeted misinformation campaign. Any smear that works–like “Corporate Democrat”–is going to be picked up and repeated by the Repub side.

        • jesterpunk

          The 3 top “air revolution” people are attacking Kamala Harris.

          http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/11/politics/democrats-bernie-sanders-feud/index.html

          First, three key Sanders backers — National Nurses Union executive director RoseAnn DeMoro, pro-Sanders journalist Nomiki Konst and “People for Bernie” co-founder Winnie Wong — publicly dismissed Sen. Kamala Harris’ prospects of winning over the party’s progressive wing. The pointed quotes were picked up online when a Mic report, published after the California Democrat was feted by top party donors in the Hamptons, went viral in late July.

          • Maybe

            What is interesting, and was during the 2016 election, is that some Bernie “supporters” went entirely against his advice to vote for Clinton. If they’re trying to be “People for Bernie” they’re sort of missing the point.

            These people have gone so far to the left that they’ve bumped into the Alt-Right on their way round the bend.

          • jesterpunk

            The ones missing the point are now in leadership positions inside the DNC on the “unity panel” too. So they have a say in how the DNC platform is defined but they cry over donuts and bottled water.

          • Maybe

            I think they’re all missing the point. And the progressives trying to undermine Harris may be doing more harm than the unity panel, which was useless but not as dangerous.

            The DNC needs to define itself. I can name a dozen issues that define the Repubs–mostly on the wrong side–but the Dems are definitely wishy-washy. Medicare for All would be a good start.

            I understand why so many progressives are frustrated with the DNC, but it needs to be rejuvenated, not abandoned. Some progressive feel they are not included, even though the DNC does support progressive candidates in areas where progressives can win. For other areas the DNC needs the moderate Dems and even the Blue Dogs.

            Control of the House and Senate is determined by head count and even a Blue Dog has a head. We need to elect as many Dems as possible.

            Infighting really misses the point, which is to win first and argue afterwards.

          • Old Man Yells at Cloud

            Please, this is California. Trying to undermine Harris would be about as successful as ousting DiFi,

          • Maybe

            They are not trying to undermine her as a California Senator. They are trying to undermine her as a future Presidential candidate.

            Remember that they started doing this to Hillary Clinton when she was the First Lady, not an elected position. And they kept it up for decades. And it worked.

            Repubs are really good at undermining and demonizing people and programs. Dems need to learn to start fighting back at the first sign of it.

          • NeoliberalBanksterCaptainHowdy

            Bernie is hand in glove with Buddy Roemer-funded TYT (who he put on the Unity committee), and The Nation published Larouchie-sourced conspiracy theories about the DNC hack within the past month.

          • Maybe

            Source, please?

          • NeoliberalBanksterCaptainHowdy
          • Maybe

            Thanks for the links, but I couldn’t find any mention of Konst or Bernie in either article. Roemer is mentioned as a Dem turned Repub.

            Did I miss something?

          • NeoliberalBanksterCaptainHowdy

            “A lot of Democrats who really very much care about the same set of progressive issues that Bernie Sanders cares about are champing at the bit to say ‘What the f—?’ with Our Revolution.”

            That strategist said Sanders needs to weigh in. “These things are being done in his name. Where’s his sense of responsibility for reining these things in?”

            A representative for Sanders said the senator, who is in Vermont during the congressional recess, could not be reached for comment.

        • NeoliberalBanksterCaptainHowdy

          And the smears came from Bernie surrogates.

    • I hate them corporate dems so imma vote for a repub that owns the corporations

      • Maybe

        Sadly, many voters did. Dems are notorious for circling the wagons and firing inwards.

        For a progressive to vote against Clinton because she isn’t perfect is a little like playing Russian Roulette. The potential gain is very small compared to the potential risk.

        I am an idealist in many ways, but not in politics. The pragmatic thing is to vote for the most progressive candidate who has a realistic chance of winning. The alternative is to have a President Trump.

    • Persistent Demme

      Great idea!
      Medicare for All!!

    • 🛶🗣️ Mr Canoehead 🛶🗣️

      Wondering if the so-called progressives are sincere or just Russian bots is like wondering if the GOP are genuinely stupid or just pandering to the stupid: it doesn’t really matter. We have to focus on fighting the damage.

      • Maybe

        I agree with your conclusion. But I think that identifying the smearers for who they really are is an effective way to fight back.

  • Notreelyhelping

    Though the financing piece is missing from the puzzle, I don’t get why few talk about the advantages for employers if they don’t have to pay for their employees’ health care. Talk cutting the corporate tax rate….

    Or that if everybody’s covered, Republicans can cut the shit out of Medicaid and then walk–a bloodied, dusty hero–into the setting sun.

    • Rags

      We subsidize employer’s contributions as business expenses, reducing their incentive to go to universal/medicare/singlepayer/whatever

      • Notreelyhelping

        Good point, though they spend considerable time and effort managing the damned things. I also suppose it takes away a goodie that employers can use for trapping and caging (i.e., recruiting and retaining).

  • Dunno why we cannot do both. Fix aca now short term. Medicare for all long time goal.

  • King Beauregard

    Just a reminder: single payer crashed in Vermont because of high costs (just months before Bernie started campaigning on it), single payer was rejected in Colorado by voters (79% – 21%, yes you read that right) because of high costs, and both New York’s and California’s single payer proposals look to cost as much as their entire current budgets.

    Single payer is swell, but our doctors, hospitals, and pharmaceutical companies are still very very for-profit, and as long as they keep handing in bills that are roughly twice what they would be in Europe, single payer is going to be unworkably expensive.

    Our problems are not on the coverage side of the house. Our problems are on the provider side of the house. Anyone who’s serious about expanding health care realizes that we need to attack medical costs directly: find out why medical treatments are so expensive, fine-tune things where that suffices, radically overhaul where necessary.

    That’s what anyone who’s SERIOUS would do. Bernie is not serious. He is a demagogue who has come up with a crowd-pleasing line, and fortunately for him and only him, he’ll be dead long before single payer is ever passed and people figure out they’ve been had.

    • Mintie

      The entire US healthcare system needs a massive overhaul, and the US public needs to accept the reality of higher taxes for increased public benefits.

      And the US government needs to accept the reality of actually using taxes on the people’s welfare, rather than lining the pockets of military lobbyists and contractors.

      • King Beauregard

        Let’s talk some numbers. The best funding plan Vermont could come up with for its single payer plan was, individual income taxes would have to go up by 9%, and payroll taxes would have to go up by 11.5%. What’s 9% of your monthly income? And about that 11.5% your employer pays, let’s assume that he’s going to place around half of that on you somehow. So what’s another 6% or so of your monthly income?

        Maybe this would work out to a deal for you, if you currently have big medical bills and single payer would happen to benefit you immediately. But you know all the people who hate the individual mandate … ? They’d be forced to pay the equivalent of 15% of their income and not really benefit from it. By all means, tell them to cough up 15% of their income for people they don’t even know or like.

        • Mintie

          Which only reinforces the point I was making. We need to reevaluate our values. And the thing that doesn’t get pointed out when people whine about single payer systems is that in most countries who have adopted it, it pays for EVERYTHING. Very few, if any, out of pocket costs. Provided it’s done right.

          • King Beauregard

            “We need to reevaluate our values.”

            Yeah, tell people who are struggling to make ends meet already that they’ll have to give 15% of their income away and not necessarily get any benefit out of it for a long time.

            I don’t see you reevaluating your values, I see you telling others to reevaluate theirs in order to achieve an end you want. That is a red flag.

      • Old Man Yells at Cloud

        Yes, if we would stop sending our 18 year olds to the other side of the planet to blow up brown people, we could save more than enough to cover medical, education and housing costs. Look at what happened to the US economy for 30 years after WWII when the GI’s back and a generation could suddenly get a college education and afford housing. But then those don’t make Lil’Donnie feel like a big man as much as making pot holes in runways does.

    • eastcoastlib

      Providers will accept a lower rate if their expenses shrink along with them. Single payer will lower their costs. Medicare is by far the most efficient system of its kind in the world. It’s administrative costs are a fraction of that of most insurers.

      • King Beauregard

        You say that with the confidence of trickle-down advocates. So tell me: if single payer is so successful at lowering costs, why do all the single payer proposals in the US to date come with such a high price tag?

        Single payer isn’t magic. Single payer is efficient at paying bills, but it can’t just make doctors need to make less money to stay in business.

        I realize you want there to be a simple answer that fixes everything; we all do. But let me reiterate: single payer failed in Vermont, Bernie’s own state, because it was too costly. If it can’t succeed in Bernie’s own country, there are problems that need to be solved.

        Here, read up on the complexities Bernie made sure not to communicate:

        https://www.vox.com/2014/12/22/7427117/single-payer-vermont-shumlin

        • eastcoastlib

          Vermont, or any single state for that matter, doesn’t have the infrastructure in place that the federal government does in the form of Medicare.

          Look, no matter how you add up the numbers, we pay more money for lesser outcomes than any other industrialized nation on the planet. You would like to use the Vermont experience as an example of why single payer won’t work while ignoring the success of Medicare which is a much more useful comparison. We have had this single payer system in place for 65 years. By any reasonable standard you want to use, it’s been a hugely successful program. It can be expanded with little additional administrative cost relative to any competing plans. Medicare for all is not a silver bullet but it’s damn close to what we all want which is universal, affordable health care.

          • King Beauregard

            Lots of assertions on your part. Yeah I keep going back to Vermont’s single payer failure because, whatever Medicare is, it’s not single payer. But at such point as we try to turn it into single payer, it’s going to run into the issues that Green Mountain Single Payer did.

            And no, the problem with Vermont wasn’t that they didn’t have a program in place already. The problem was that doctors and hospitals are currently structured to require a level of income that is twice as high as in Europe, and fifty percent higher than in Canada.

            Medicare is currently about as far from universal coverage as a person can imagine, and I’m surprised (not really) that single payer advocates miss the distinction. At present, we all pay into Medicare, but only ~15% of the public get any benefit from it today. Medicare for All would mean Medicare payroll deductions of what, four or five times their current level. Your Medicare deduction is currently 1.45%, and your employer has to match that with another 1.45%. Multiply that by, say, 4.5 and that’s 6.5% from your pay (plus your employer matching with 6.5%, where do you suppose he’s going to get that from?).

            A total 13% of your pay for single payer wouldn’t be bad, if Medicare were actually good coverage. But it requires co-pays, and worse, Medicare reimbursement rates are notoriously low. Doctors don’t all own money bins that they swim in on weekends; they’ve got bills of their own, and just paying them less is going to drive a lot of them out of business, or at least change the way they treat patients for the worse.

            When it comes to single payer, the Left is about as reality-based as fans of trickle-down economics. Cost issues? Not a problem, single payer can’t fail! A losing track record even in progressive states like Vermont? Single payer can’t fail, single payer can only be failed! Single payer failing about as often as it succeeds in nation after nation, and the problem is inevitably paying for it? LIES FROM LYING LIARS WHO ARE LYING BECAUSE THEY ARE LIARS!

            https://www.vox.com/2016/1/20/10793864/sanders-single-payer-vermont

        • Old Man Yells at Cloud

          Single Payer is very efficient at setting prices. Its a monopoly in reverse. Take a look at Medicare and you can see the power of bulk purchasing.

          • King Beauregard

            Yeah I see the power of bulk purchasing. I see that doctors do accept Medicare, often begrudgingly because of its low reimbursement rate, but with the expectation that they can make up the difference on non-Medicare patients. So what happens when there are no non-Medicare patients to make up the difference with?

            Also, Medicare involves a lot of co-pays and services that are simply not covered. Medicare isn’t what single payer advocates dream of, no matter how they like the slogan.

        • mfp, all 6s&7s&9s

          single payer failed in vermont because there arent enough people in vermont to have the clout to force the costs down….330 million federal health consumers?…that’s power

          • King Beauregard

            Oh horseshit. An entire state of patients is clout enough. And isn’t it funny how everyone (including Bernie) thought that Vermont would show the country how it’s done, until it failed, when all of a sudden Vermont was a terrible test case.

            Just make your argument directly, which is: single payer can’t fail, single payer can only BE failed.

            And the problem remains that, even if single payer manages to drop prices to a low level level that consumers like, it will mean a massive pay cut to doctors and hospitals. Expect to drive some of them out of business, and others to rely more and more heavily on “cost saving” measures when treating patients. But who cares about patients, so long as we get single payer, amirite?

          • mfp, all 6s&7s&9s

            ok, i’ll make that argument…sngle payer cant fail, If You Cheap Mothafuckas Stop Bitching About How Much It Will Cost, Make The Wealthy Pay Higher Taxes, And Just Fucking Fund It Already Because In The Long Run It Will Drive Costs Down–it can only be failed, and stfu with the whining pissing moaning concern trolling already

          • King Beauregard

            Well SHIT, you can afford ANYTHING provided you just assume someone else will pay for it. You haven’t mentioned any willingness to see your own taxes increase to fund this, which makes you just as greedy as any garden variety Teabagger. Get used to it, you’ll be one of them as soon as you make enough money for your own taxes to be at risk.

            Only one of the two of us is actually looking at the problems that have hounded single payer, and will do so until we address them. That person ain’t you.

          • mfp, all 6s&7s&9s

            i know the problems of single payer…the main one is whiny cheap-ass americans not wanting to fund it…yeah, raise taxes–including on me…youknow, me–who pays the same or probably HIGHER tax rate than pricks like donald trump, apple inc, GE and exxon…but yeah, keep pissing and moaning about “waaaaaahhaaa, we aing got the moneys, what are we gonna doooooo, bluto”….khaa-ryst, just fucking fund it, we’re still the richest country in the world…we can do this circle jerk for weeks, but you have officially bored me into submission

          • King Beauregard

            You don’t know a goddamn thing.

            You claim that what I’ve done is “bored” you, but in reality it’s dawning on you how unprepared you are to have this discussion. Hey guess what: slogans aren’t public policy, and if single payer keeps running into funding issues in every state it’s tried in, maybe there are root issues that need to be addressed. Or are you going to tell me that New York simply isn’t populous enough? How about California then?

            It’s remarkable how every random know-nothing has all the answers that elude the experts.

          • mfp, all 6s&7s&9s

            federal…FEDERAL, NATIONWIDE PROGRAM…FEDERAL TAXES…330MILLION PAYING CUSTOMERS….jesus fuck you are fucking dense

          • King Beauregard

            330 MILLION PAYING CUSTOMERS and also 330 MILLION PATIENTS.

            Both the funding and the bills scale with population, dumbass. Unless a given state is overall more healthy than other states, it doesn’t matter whether it’s one state or 50.

            God you are dumber than fuck.

          • mfp, all 6s&7s&9s

            but not as infuratingly fucking stupid as you…blocked

          • King Beauregard

            The last refuge of someone who doesn’t like being reminded of what a know-nothing he is.

    • Old Man Yells at Cloud

      Yes they are obscenely for profit until they run up against a large enough payer who has the clout to say “you get exactly this small fraction of what you put on the bill for that procedure” or we won’t pay you anything going forward. To which the provider responds “ok” because if they don’t, they don’t get to have bills to put obscene prices on in the first place.

      I once got a medical bill when they thought I had no insurance. Once they found out I was covered, the bill dropped to 1/7th of the original. When the hospital thought they could screw me, they tried to.

      You need the buying power of a large single payer (e.g. Medicare) to force reasonable pricing onto the providers. Remember that medicine is the only business where its both legal and common to not provide the price before providing the service and you can be forced to accept procedures you don’t want and still have to pay for them. If Amazon sends you something you didn’t order, not only do you not have to pay, you can keep it.

      • King Beauregard

        Don’t forget that the for-profit medical providers have for-profit creditors too. When single payer refuses to pay a hospital as much for a life-saving medicine as it costs the hospital, what’s the hospital going to do? The hospital has a few options, and none of them lead to better outcomes for patients.

        I thought the goal was to improve patient outcomes, not install single payer. I thought single payer was intended as a means to an end and not the end itself. But it grows increasingly clear to me that most avid single payer advocates consider single payer the goal, and have stopped looking at the impact it will have on actual people. They just assume single payer will fix everything, and are completely uninterested in single payer’s failures in Vermont and Colorado.

        Myself, I figure we need to look at the issues that keep costs so high. There’s some greed in there, but there are also structural issues. Like doctors: they’ve got student loans to pay, and they have to buy malpractice insurance. Can we offer any programs to make lowering their prices more viable, for example loan forgiveness and subsidized malpractice insurance in exchange for lower rates? We do that and they submit lower bills. And not only do we approach the point where single payer can be affordable, but because of how the ACA is structured, premiums are forced to drop too.

        • mfp, all 6s&7s&9s

          you ever drive around a big city, where they have many hospitals?…they’re always expanding, always have construction cranes and zones, and gobbling up nearby neighborhoods…they’re one of the very few segments of our economy that is doing that (constantly, for decades now), and they arent doing that because they’re going broke

          • King Beauregard

            So you object to hospitals expanding to treat more patients at better facilities.

            But you accidentally stumble upon a legitimate point, that we need to consider whether hospital resources are efficiently deployed. For example, suppose there are MRI machines at all four hospitals in town, and each is in use only a quarter of the time: does it make sense to sell two of them? Possibly, but that also means that patients would have to travel from one hospital to another for their MRIs, and is that a problem?

    • mfp, all 6s&7s&9s

      it would only be that expensive because the projections are based on the ‘retail’ costs…that absolutely no insurance company ever pays…as in, that $60k c-spine surgery that the insurance co ‘negotiated’ down to about $30k…and the fed would have even more clout and buying power by requiring participation by all on both sides (provider and consumer), and price guidelines if not direct price control…this can be done, believe it or not, it ISNT rocket surgery

      • King Beauregard

        Oh, so the people who are actually trying to fund single payer are just idiots who keep making gross obvious errors, and what they need to do is hire some guy on Wonkette who just insists that single payer will fix everything simply by existing. Yes that’s entirely plausible, and it’s certainly not exactly as ludicrous as thinking that we just need a businessman as president to show everyone how it’s done.

        • mfp, all 6s&7s&9s

          yes

    • jesterpunk

      When Doctors start their career with close to a million dollars in student loan debt and their salaries are going down over time that isnt going to help.

      https://www.cbsnews.com/news/1-million-mistake-becoming-a-doctor/

      And Betsy Devos wants to make it worse.

      http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/26/pf/college/student-debt-doctors-lawyers/index.html

      Other countries with single payer subsidies education a lot more then the US does. That is one thing that needs to be fixed before we can even begin to discuss single payer in a meaningful way.

      • King Beauregard

        Yes.

        And you know what? It’s the Debbie Downers like you and me who are actually trying to solve the problems that are destined to bedevil single payer. Meanwhile, the single payer cheerleaders aren’t actually trying to solve those problems. Guess who’s more likely to make single payer happen?

        • jesterpunk

          The people with actual plans, it would be nice to have single payer but its not something that can be done overnight which they don’t like. You basically have to start with education reform and student loan reform first and get those costs down then go on to other things that drive up costs. Once that is all done then you can work on single payer which would be easier to get to if you keep improving the ACA at the same time your working on everything else. Its not a simple problem its something that has been building for over 80 years and is going to take a lot of careful planning to avoid blowing everything up and killing any chance of healthcare reform ever.

          • King Beauregard

            Even the ACA doesn’t need much improvement; it reins in insurance companies pretty well. The affordability issues that dog the ACA are the very same ones that make single payer so expensive. The good news is, the ACA is designed so that, as medical costs drop, premiums drop in tandem; that means that lower costs automatically go back to consumers. It’s almost like the much hated neoliberal Democrats came up with a pretty good system.

            If I had to start somewhere, I’d start with pharmaceutical companies; they have few fans and a terrible public image. The thing that makes pharmaceutical companies complicated is that they have to fund R&D before their products hit the market (if indeed they do at all), and then they have to recoup their development costs in the captive US market. What if the government subsidized their research, and then capped profits? Seems like it would solve most of the problem. It would also give the government the power to make sure that important but not-necessarily-profitable drugs are developed. Half of our technological blessings come from the space program, where the government funded development of new technologies that eventually made it to the consumer market. It could be something like that, but with medicine.

          • jesterpunk

            You would also need to repeal Medicare part D that forbids the government from negotiating drug prices.

          • King Beauregard

            Senator King Beauregard votes “aye” on Senator Jesterpunk’s amendment.

  • TEX Dept. of Space Tacos

    Sooo, can the leftier than thou folks get on board with harris now?

    • jesterpunk

      Nope, now the excuse is she is only doing it because it wont pass. See downthread.

      • TEX Dept. of Space Tacos

        i just did and shoulda known better.

      • Sakonyachen

        Jesus, I almost changed my username to Leftier than Mao, and that is pure cynicism. Sometimes politicians actually believe in an idea that the people do as well. Maybe if some of my “Star Trek was Imperialist Propoganda” brethren would get behind a Dem or two who actually listened to them, we might get something better than upvotes from our anti-Capitalist circlejerks. I’m not saying I’m gonna go door to door for Harris, but I will at least support her initiative on this move.

        To be fair, I’m kind of a temperamental asshole, so I wouldn’t go door to door for a Christ/Marx presidential campaign. Jesus wouldn’t be the president Rs think he would be after all. And if they crucified him(pun intended), they’d get Marx. Perfect storm of Socialism!!!!

        • jesterpunk

          I have had it with the purity assholes, they keep demanding something then when they get people who actually publicly support that they still are not happy. They keep moving the goal posts and expecting everyone else to jump through every hoop they throw up or they will help make sure republicans win. Then they complain that they didnt get a perfect solution and act holier then thou and throw up more hoops to get their support.

    • Old Man Yells at Cloud

      I may not be Leftier than Thou, but I’m Leftier than many and I think Senator Harris the Bee’s Knees. I use that phrase cause I’m old and in those days I tied an onion to my belt, which was the style at the time. Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel, and in those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on ’em. Give me five bees for a quarter, you’d say.

      • NeoliberalBanksterCaptainHowdy

        You don’t say.

      • mfp, all 6s&7s&9s

        wait, what? nickels with bumblebees?

    • Marceline

      Nope. She’s not pure enough. They only want to fix healthcare if Bernie can get all the credit.

  • TEX Dept. of Space Tacos

    fucking hell, 538 has trump’s average, weighted approval bouncing UP .3 points.

    He suffered a tiny dip after charlottesville, but this Harvey response is going to kick it up.

    • mfp, all 6s&7s&9s

      it wont last

    • If there is nothing else reliable about the Ol’ Pussy Grabber, it’s that he’ll fuck anything positive happening up. He leaves chaos and destroyed lives in his wake. He fights with everyone because it is the only thing he can do. And, right now, McConnell, Ryan, and the whole crew of deplorables is finding that out, and, I must say, it can’t be happening to a nicer more deserving bunch.

    • Mueller doesn’t give a blind fuck about his approval ratings.

  • M.E. Lawrence

    “Harris joins Elizabeth Warren and Kirsten Gillibrand in publicly endorsing single-payer, but she’s the first Democratic senator to commit to co-sponsoring the Sanders bill.”

    Elizabeth, Kamala and Kirsten = The Three Graces. Wouldn’t it be nice if Collins and Murkowski joined them? (Yeah, I know, but I can dream, and I will.)

    • Old Man Yells at Cloud

      As Californian, I say it would be nicer if DiFi and the other senior corporate senators joined.

    • Major Lee Pissed ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

      Women leading the way. Fuck yes.

  • NeoliberalBanksterCaptainHowdy

    It sounds too much like she’s co-sponsoring Bernie’s unseen mystery bill due to pressure from Berniecrats, who are naturally still unsatisfied. Everyone who deals with Bernie (who is still shitting on Democrats and doing apologetics for Trump voters as of this week) comes away covered in shit. I don’t feel good about this.

    • Marceline

      Of course the Berniacs are going to claim this as a win. Taking unearned credit is their specialty. But let’s be clear, Bernie doesn’t want this. He doesn’t want people horning in on his spotlight. His specialty is standing on the sideline wagging his finger at everyone else. Harris is better at this than he is (and by “this” I mean everything). She’s more articulate, more accomplished, more popular especially black voters will follow her into the void, and her colleagues actually like dealing with her unlike Bernie.

      With Harris co-sponsoring this becomes the Sanders-Harris healthcare bill. Pop-Pop’s going to HATE that.

  • Sakonyachen

    I’m amazed that I am looking at comments on a site with so many progressives talking about how much turmoil there will be if we go single payer. I’m glad the New Deal wasn’t written right now.

    Yes it will be a fucking mess. So was the ACA, and the Republicans can’t touch it because they don’t want to kill their aging base before they reach Medicare age. So was the rollout of Social Security. I’m pretty sure freeing the slaves got pretty messy too. I’ll bet when commoners were taught to read it was an ugly scene as well, probably as ugly as when non-parishioners were allowed to read the Bible.

    Progress is not a well oiled machine, and it never was. I work for the government and I have insurance. I have no vested interest in everyone getting healthcare other than morality. A healthy populace is a productive populace, and I believe that may be where the root of doubt is being sewn. The future involves a lot less of us working for the profit of the owners of our country, and they don’t like the prospect of paying for us to live longer and not make money for them. The obstacles I mentioned above have all been removed, and all before this one existed in the manner it does now. Costs of healthcare rise faster than wages, and there is an advantage to not treating a populace that isn’t going to be necessary to the oligarchs. We aren’t going to be needed soon, so it may be wise to think about who pays for the analysis that states that healthcare and education are not worth paying for, but future weapons now research and development is paramount.

    The only thing the “disaster” of single payer will lead to is socialized healthcare, and if the Ayn Randian doctors don’t like it, they can move to Somalia and have a practice free of government interference. I’m so sick of kissing the ass of the free market and wondering why Republicans win more elections and Dems move farther right. It’s not their fault when we cheerlead the status quo because we are all so afraid that our own life may be disrupted or we may be stuck listening to our right wing coworker bitch up a storm like they were going to anyway.

    Progress is as ugly as downfall, because in a way it is downfall. It is the downfall of the old way that no longer works, and there will be plenty of people telling you all the reasons we have to double down on coal and rotary phones. I don’t plan on owning an iPhone forever because it will be obsolete. Many of us had a landline until about 2000 and now we have no use for it. Some of us may have never had one, or at least don’t remember. The world is losing its use for insurance companies, and we are bringing up the rear very slowly.

    The idea that we can’t pay for it assumes that money is a finite resource while our government prints money and hands it to banks. Money is not finite, access to it is. We are only unable to access it because we don’t demand it. We have been brainwashed to think that everyone who is wealthy has somehow lived a life of toil and service, but the truth is very different. Yes they have sacrificed, because the truth is, money was more important to them than life. This only applies to those who weren’t born into money, which is a minority of the wealthy. The truth is that we work to make them rich and are blamed for not making them even richer. It has to stop, and it won’t when poor people are dying from common illnesses because they don’t want their kids to grow up homeless. Especially when the left is saying that we can’t afford to do it because the right won’t let us. We stopped the neo-Nazis from having their pity parties, all the while acting like Antifa are jackbooted thugs.

    There are so many more things we could concede if we want to keep looking at things from the perspective of what the right tells us is important while doing the opposite. How about everyone that is to the left of Bill Clinton just says fuck minorities? Doesn’t sound reasonable does it? The right pays lip service to diversity while they allow or promote racist policies, if we are going to play by their rules, why don’t we? Or maybe we could say that we don’t care about reproductive rights. Why not? I’ve heard more than once that the top Dems were toying with it, fuckit! Even if it is a bullshit rumor, if we are going to follow the Republicans’ guidelines for what is possible, we may as well just submit to the same God whose bible tells you to take your cheating wife to a holy man for a potion that aborts her baby, and stop all abortions now. Are you following my snark? I hope so.

    Anyway. Let’s stop saying we can’t and start figuring out how we can. I know one way is to start demanding more of our politicians and our neighbors. I’m not saying that I expect Doc Zoom to write the bill(I’m certainly not saying I’m against it either! It would be the most popular text of any bill ever written in sure), I’m just saying we won’t get shit if we don’t believe we deserve it. Correction, we will get exactly shit.

    • jesterpunk

      The ACA isnt around because Republicans care about their base, its only around because the bills they came up where not cruel enough to get enough republican votes in the house and senate. If they came up with a plan that made their members happy they would pass it and have it signed in under an hour. They also would kill medicare and medicaid if they can get enough votes to pass it.

      • Sakonyachen

        It’s a pendulum of failure for them. If it goes too far cruel they lose the DINOs. If it goes too reasonable(yeah right), they lose the freedumb cock-us. The reason they can’t get the votes is because they used to have solidarity when they didn’t have to keep their word. Now that they do, they fear they may lose their jobs if they do what they said. Oddly enough, fired by the very people who voted for their bankrupt policies. Plus, I’m sure a few are still somewhat human.

    • Old Man Yells at Cloud

      Then there was the mess when parishioners where allowed to read the Bible and they discovered that contrary to what they had been told ever Sunday, Jesus didn’t say that Altar boys are supposed to blow priests.

      • Major Lee Pissed ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

        Are you sure? Coulda sworn I read something wildly different in Two Corinthians but I could be mistaken.

    • HazooToo

      I’m surprised this doesn’t have more upvotes. Other nations have already HAD this shit for years. If the question is “how, though?” then the answer is “look at your damn neighbors and change”. There are two roadblocks we have to get through.

      A) Wording of the law & making it viable and seamless across the entire United States, so you can be an MS sufferer living in California, then go to visit your Aunt in Texas and get the same exact quality of treatment there as you do at home.

      B) Corruption which needs to be dug out of the way in pursuit of ANY progressive goal, whether it’s universal healthcare or college. That means figuring out how to get rid of Citizens United and the Electoral College, and reducing the amount of money that individuals can donate to politicians, whether they’re lobbyists or the 1%, and instituting some real tax changes whereby the rich start actually paying their fair share.

    • mfp, all 6s&7s&9s

      all the upvotes, forever and ever…i preach a similar sermon almost every day of my life, and many time get looked at as if i had two heads…..thanks, sakonyachen

    • toughsister

      Brilliant! I couldn’t have said it better myself. Thank you for your thoughfulness.

  • NeoliberalBanksterCaptainHowdy

    Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders will introduce a bill next month to create a government-run, single-payer health care system. And he knows it’s going to fail.

    “Look, I have no illusions that under a Republican Senate and a very right-wing House and an extremely right-wing president of the United States, that suddenly we’re going to see a Medicare-for-all, single-payer passed,” he said recently, sitting in his Senate office. “You’re not going to see it. That’s obvious.”

    The point of the bill, Sanders says, is to force a conversation: “Excuse me: why is the United States the only major country on earth not to guarantee health care to all people? Why are we spending far, far more per capita on health care than any other nation? Why do we pay the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs?”

    [There is already a conversation, of course, but Nothing Exists Without Bernie.]
    . . .

    Senate Republicans even forced a vote on a single-payer option on the Senate floor last month, hoping to get Democrats on the record supporting the idea.

    Most Democratic senators voted “present.” No one voted “yes.”

    “I urged my colleagues to vote ‘present’ because we are not going to dance to the tune of right-wing Republicans, who of course were not prepared to support a single-payer,” Sanders said. “For them, it was just a political moment that they thought would be advantageous for them.”

    http://www.npr.org/2017/08/11/542676994/bernie-sanders-knows-his-medicare-for-all-bill-wont-pass-thats-not-the-point

    • what, me worry?

      Capt Howdy, furious that the national debate now includes Single Payer, because Democrats in Congress have been terrified by Clinton’s loss in an unlosable election. “Why aren’t we talking about minor technocratic tweaks to the ACA??” he screams at the sky.

  • You know what the Leftier than Thou purity assholes have in common with RWNJ’s and violent anarchists and Nazis and Klansmen? They are all angry rebels. It don’t matter what the issue is, they’ll stake out a position further out and start pissing in. That’s all they got is angry shouting. It takes real dedication and belief to build. It takes knee-jerk anger to destroy, and, let’s face it, destroying things is much easier and more gratifying than building things. And, that satisfying rush of righteous indignation you feel as it all burns…

    • toughsister

      I am a Leftier than Thou purity asshole. If the shit-for-brains right hadn’t given me reasons to be, I’d probably be a moderate, middle-of-the-road, neither-fish-nor-fowl sheeple. So go fuck yourself.

      • NeoliberalBanksterCaptainHowdy

        Is that why you work to elect Republicans?

      • Thank you, I shall go fuck myself. I do so regularly. But, if you advocate any violence or knee-jerk anti-anything, then you are part of the problem, not the solution. The essence of democracy is compromise. Without it, it doesn’t work. To compromise, you must respect the views of the minority — doesn’t men I’m advocating racism or the blind upward transfer of wealth — but it does mean, I thank your respecting my views.

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