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Surely no one who read the Bible would fight for the wrong side
Surely no one who read the Bible would fight for the wrong side

The Washington National Cathedral has decided to remove two images of the Confederate slavery flag from a set of stained glass windows commemorating the lives of Stonewall Jackson and Robert E. Lee. We bet nobody will make a big stink over the decision, because why would you have that thing in a house of worship, after all?

The decision came nearly a year after the racist murders of nine worshipers at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston, South Carolina, and the resulting national fuck-tussle over whether the Confederate flag is a racist symbol of Southern heritage or an innocent signifier of white supremacy. The Confederate battle flag is displayed in two of a set of eight windows that were installed in 1953 with funding (and lobbying from) the United Daughters of the Confederacy.

Last year, the then-Dean of the National Cathedral, Rev. Gary Hall, called for the removal of the Lee/Jackson window display altogether, saying that although the (official) intent of the windows was to “foster reconciliation between parts of the nation that had been divided by the Civil War” — which is, of course, what Confederate “Heritage” groups were all about in 1953 — they no longer belonged in a place of worship:

While the impetus behind the windows’ installation was a good and noble one at the time, the Cathedral has changed, and so has the America it seeks to represent. There is no place for the Confederate battle flag in the iconography of the nation’s most visible faith community. We cannot in good conscience justify the presence of the Confederate flag in this house of prayer for all people, nor can we honor the systematic oppression of African-Americans for which these two men fought.

For now, only the Confederate battle flag will be removed; a five-member task force has been working to decide how to deal with the entire set of windows, which depict various scenes from the lives of the two generals. None of the images include any slaves, for some reason.

For larger image, go to ABC News
For larger image, go to ABC News

Hall told NPR last year that the windows needed to go, and that the inscriptions on the windows inappropriately celebrate Lee and Jackson as “exemplary Christian people,” a message that distorts the historical record. As Yr Wonkette has noted, rightwing Christianist textbooks portray the two as exemplary Christians; one eighth-grade text called Lee “a man of prayer” and a “Great Christian General,” and devotes a large text box to “Stonewall Jackson: Soldier of the Cross,” in with we learn the good pro-slavery general’s “courageous faith in God carried him through many dangerous battles”:

For example, after First Manassas an aide asked General Jackson how he managed to remain so calm as bullets and shells whistled about him. Jackson replied, “Captain, my religious belief teaches me to feel as safe in battle as in bed. God has fixed the time for my death. I do not concern myself about that, but to be always ready no matter when it may overtake me.” He paused and then added, “Captain, that is the way all men should live, and then all would be equally brave.”

The same Confederate apologist impulse from that textbook (yes, still in print) was clearly at work in the window showing Jackson “Reading the Bible” like any decent godfearing defender of owning human beings would do.

The task force decided that instead of quietly covering over the battle flag, the cathedral should use the windows and the question of what to do with them as the starting place for a wider discussion of slavery and history, as well as how churches played a role both in fighting and perpetuating racism:

“[T]he windows provide a catalyst for honest discussions about race and the legacy of slavery and for addressing the uncomfortable and too often avoided issues of race in America,” the task force found, according to a press release from the National Cathedral.

One member of the task force said the windows raise a question about race and slavery in America, “and instead of turning away from that question, the cathedral has decided to lean into it.”

A series of panel discussions and events exploring race and racism will kick off next month.

While those public discussions move forward, the windows will stay in place, but the Confederate flags will be replaced with a pane of plain glass; private donors will pay for the replacement. In that NPR interview last year, Rev. Hall explained:

I’m not trying to whitewash our history. I’m trying to celebrate our history. But since the cathedral tells the story of America, and just as America is trying to come to terms finally with the Civil War and slavery and racism and segregation, it seems to me that it’s more appropriate for us to have windows that tell that story in all of its complicated fullness than just present a kind of public relations picture of a couple of Southern generals.

Despite the inevitable complaints about censoring history that will come when the windows are replaced (we presume they’d eventually go into a museum setting, though there’s been no final decision yet), that desire to replace them with something that isn’t merely pro-Confederate propaganda seems like exactly the right way to let the light in.

[NPR / WaPo via TPM / NPR / ABC]

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  • Fly

    It’s about time all the traitor splooge is wiped up.

  • Lefty Frizzell

    What’s with the EU flag I see in there a couple of times – what side were they on?

    • Skadi

      Iron Man’s.

  • marxalot

    Why not showcase Lee’s exemplary work as a surveyor during the Mexican American War? And while we’re at it, explain just what the fuck that war was about?
    Museum exhibit sounds right, because these things should be seen. They should be remembered. Not just that we had the damn war, and why, but that even 100 years afterward, people were still paying out (and taking!) Union money to glorify the Confederate cause.

    • Longstreet63

      The Mexican War was about taking over a big chunk of that country because”we wanted it” and we could goad them into making war. (I.e. The standard causus belli for 19th century European wars)
      and apparently Winfield Scott was quite happy with Lee’s surveying, yes. Most of the other big names from 61-65 were in cameo appearances in that war.

      • Skadi

        Particularly in the team of “ninja engineers” who built roads up to Cerro Gordo:

        These reconnaissances were made under the supervision of Captain Robert E. Lee, assisted by Lieutenants P. G. T. Beauregard, Isaac I. Stevens, Z. B. Tower, G. W. Smith, George B. McClellan, and J. G. Foster, of the corps of engineers, all officers who attained rank and fame, on one side or the other, in the great conflict for the preservation of the unity of the nation. The reconnaissance was completed, and the labor of cutting out and making roads by the flank of the enemy was effected by the 17th of the month. This was accomplished without the knowledge of Santa Anna or his army, and over ground where he supposed it impossible.

        …but judging by your handle, I’d guess you’re familiar with that story. ;)

        • sadboy

          So it’s true wat the Mexicans say – we stole the half of Mexico that had all of the paved roads.

  • Msgr_Moment

    I’m not trying to whitewash our history. I’m trying to celebrate our history.

    May I suggest that the replacement window celebrate the march of American history by honoring the first African-American President and the first woman President?

    • Rock Drummer

      Suggesting honoring President Barack “the man” Obama by any means is anathema to the rebel flag fondlers. As for future President Clinton getting any honor from them, well, it ain’t gonna happen. They will give up deep fried possum ass before that happens.

  • FlownOver

    The flag? THE FLAG?!?!?

    Let’s step back and wonder WTF any windows commemorating treasonous armed forces are doing in the National Cathedral. For that matter, where did they hide that Commandment about “Thou shalt make war” at all? Is it in Two Corinthians?

  • Gayer Than Thou

    It is way past time to update these windows. They should be replaced with stained glass depictions of gay marriage being crammed down America’s throat, and trans people going potty.

    • Msmlg1979

      I was going to suggest Obama dressed as Jesus.

      • bubbuhh

        One of those harlequin costumes. Sheesus one side and Mohammad on the other.

      • Gayer Than Thou

        It looks like there’s four windows with two main panels each, so plenty of room for Jesus Obama!

    • Logic of Color

      They totally need to update. Can’t believe they’re still running Windows ’56

      • Blank Ron

        The hardware won’t support an upgrade.

      • MarkM

        Ik, r? This is one time we should all want Windows to crash.

    • AntiDerpomeme

      I’m thinking they could rework some of the existing windows to fit the new theme, thus saving all kinds of money on having to create all new pieces:

      • Gayer Than Thou

        I laughed so loudly I scared the cats.

      • AlasAnAss

        I really think his face would convey terror, but also, well, some interest.

      • Msgr_Moment

        Must add words “WITH VOTES” at the bottom.

      • Why am I Mr. Pink?

        Shouldn’t the bugle be replaced with, say, a transgender lady on a ladder? Or maybe she could be on serene/terrified-guy-reading-Dan-Savage-book’s shoulders?

  • Latverian Diplomat

    We’re lucky there aren’t windows commemorating slaughtering Native Americans, banning Asian immigration, or beating up Jews. Wait, there aren’t, are there?

  • x111e7thst

    Hatred! not heritage (fixed it)

  • Latverian Diplomat

    The sad truth is that sincere religious belief doesn’t protect you from doing evil things for evil causes. But a stained glass window or a laudatory paragraph in a kid’s textbook are probably not the ways to make that point.

  • bubbuhh

    Inset-Deity-Here always puttin money down on folks winnin stuff if they pray to IDH. That’s why no praying mantises ever lose their heads..

  • Msgr_Moment

    They could replace it with this under-appreciated saint. St. Onan, the patron saint of small families.

    • Skadi

      Or even better, Dorothy Parker’s parrot, named after St. Onan.

    • SuspectedDemocrat

      Now THERE’S a catalyst for honest discussion!

    • YoBunnyBunny

      what am I looking at?

      • limberrat

        Onan was an old testament character who God punished for not impregnating his brother’s widow and instead “spilling his seed on the ground”.

        • Skadi

          Which is why Parker named her parrot after him–after all, he spilled his seed on the ground too.

        • Celtic_Gnome

          Which is why masturbation is such a heinous sin. To a professional virgin, there’s no difference between whacking off and pulling out.

      • Msgr_Moment

        Gen. 38.8

        Then Judah said to Onan, “Sleep with your brother’s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to raise up offspring for your brother.” 9 But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother’s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death also.

    • PortTaiLand

      What is St. Onan looking at?
      Asking for a friend.

      • Msgr_Moment

        What do ‘batin’ monkeys in the zoo look at?

  • MsAnthropesMr

    Just sayin’ – some parts of history shouldn’t be celebrated, they should be reviled.

  • sadboy

    Perhaps they should put in a new scene of Stonewall Jackson sitting upon a rock amidst a field of corpses at Shiloh, eating a peach and saying ‘God has been good to us this day’.

    • Belasaurius

      Antietam, but the quote is correct

      • sadboy

        Really? Damn, thought it was Shiloh. I stand corrected.

    • Skadi

      Unfortunately, just as people failed to understand the speaker in “The War Prayer”, I fear this scene would elude their comprehension as well.

      • sadboy

        I tried to tell people about that story in the run up to the Iraq war. They looked at me like I was a freak.

        Really makes me wonder if spending all of this money on public schools and libraries is just a waste. Let our kids learn about the world from Kardashian reality shows and supermarket checkout stand tabloids, for all the good it does.

    • Longstreet63

      Why not, other than the fact that Jackson wasn’t at Shiloh…
      Also, he preferred lemons.

  • MsAnthropesMr

    What’s next, not blaming Jews for killing Jesus?

    • Latverian Diplomat

      It’s not the Roman’s fault; Pilate washed his hands and everything.

      • Pickwicknext

        He could have taught Lady Mackers a thing or two

  • Skwerl King

    Are you thinking what I am thinking?…

    We already have a Darth Vader gargoyle on that cathedral…

    Why not tell the story of another war…

    In a galaxy far, far away!

    • doktorzoom

      [comic book guy voice] Excuse me. There is no drainspout in it, so it is a grotesque, not a gargoyle. Now if you’ll excuse me, I need to bet back to my internet argument over whether a lightsaber could cut through Mithril armor. Good day! [/Comic book guy voice]

      • MarkM

        The local taco shop has a sale on, if you are in need of sustenance for your nerdish dispute.

        • sadboy

          This should be sufficient sustenance for the Doctor Who marathon!

      • proudgrampa

        I get all my news, porn, and Medieval Architecture education from Wonkette.

      • PortTaiLand

        It could definitely cut mithril, but not adamantium. Unless the mithril was enchanted to +5 or better of course.

      • limberrat

        Depends on what mithril is made of and what its heat transfer ratio is vs. the lightsaber’s plasma heat. There are materials in the Legends universe that a lightsaber couldn’t cut through…so it’s possible for Mithril to withstand a lightsaber hit. [Engineering nerd OUT!]

      • PubOption

        They don’t seem to cut through violins.
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6sOYShLLm0

        • Skadi

          I deplore senseless violins.

        • Querolous

          But do they cut through violas?

    • therblig

      clearly the national cathedral is anti-rebel scum.

  • Michael Smith

    Sometimes I get the feeling like we are standing up to a bully that we’ve let push us around for years. And they’re like “Hey you never had a problem with me before, what’s up all of a sudden?”

    And you’re like, its not that you weren’t always wrong. You were. I’m just not going to put up with it anymore.

  • Belasaurius

    let me shortcut this argument about destroying history:
    No Nazi flags are flown in Germany, the Germans have not forgotten.

    QED motherfuckers.

    • marxalot

      I’d actually like to see how other countries with civil wars handle this. Can we phone England and inquire about the War of the Roses and also Cromwell’s Protectorate? Those were ugly and fratricidal. Might be good for a start.

      • Michael Smith

        Is there an example where one side fought to preserve something that is now considered a crime against humanity?

        Maybe it would like the Serbs putting up monuments to Milosevic

        • SuspectedDemocrat

          The annual Sarajevo reenactment doesn’t draw many tourists.

        • marxalot

          I’m specifically interested in how to acknowledge that a hideous gaping fratricidal wound has been inflicted without deliberately tearing open the sutures, politically. Because (and I cannot say this enough), moving away from the oligarchs and the generals, the men who died were fighting for each other, and had no say in the social order to start with. Is there a way to talk about both issues without losing sight of that? I hope so.

          • SuspectedDemocrat

            Ken Burns on line one…

          • Gayer Than Thou

            Somewhat O/T (and not at all an original insight) but this is the beauty and genius of the Maya Lin’s Vietnam War Memorial – wars consist of people, people who get maimed and die, even wars fought for “the right reasons,” and it is they who should be honored, not the generals.

          • Msmlg1979

            There should be.

          • sadboy

            Do men who fight and die in war ever have a say in the social order? I can only think of a very few examples of those who have.

        • coozledad

          Someone drove a hawthorn stake into Milosevic’s coffin to make sure the vampire stayed where he was. I think all the evil undead should be addressed similarly.

      • therblig
  • Lizzietish81

    To be fair to Jackson, the Bible is pretty pro slavery

    • TJ Barke

      Under the right circumstances it’s pro pretty much whatever you want it to be.

      • Michael Smith

        Pro wrestling

        • TJ Barke

          It’s fake.

    • Skwerl King

      Except if you were born Pharaohese.

    • SuspectedDemocrat

      God wanted him to kill people. It wasn’t easy, but he did it!

      • Longstreet63

        Actually, it was pretty easy for Jackson, and he was quite happy to do it. Not to mention good at arranging it.

        • SuspectedDemocrat

          I dunno, I learned in a Christianist textbook that it was only his faith in God that gave him the courage to slaughter people wholesale.

          Wow, these windows really do catalyze discussion!

        • Skadi

          And as the Good Book says, let every man labor in his vocation…

    • Latverian Diplomat

      “Hey some things are eternal truths, and some things like slavery, the shrimp thing, and the polyester blend thing were just meant for the bronze age context. How to tell the difference? Uh, something Holy Spirit something hermeneutics, something.”

      — A Theologian

      • memzilla

        Canned clams are still a sin against G-d!

        • SuspectedDemocrat

          Or as Trump might say, “Can yer clam, lady!”

          He’s probably saving that zinger for the debate.

        • proudgrampa

          As is boxed wine!

  • Msmlg1979

    Rupaul as “Rachel Tension” wore it better!

    • Gayer Than Thou

      And that right there is why I am pro-drag: done right, it fucks with things like nothing else.

      • Msmlg1979

        I am pro-drag for lots of reasons, but my favorite part is it’s men who are proud to emulate and honor women and femininity.

        • YoBunnyBunny

          I’ve gotten my best make-up tips from drag queens.

        • marxalot

          I’ve had to stop myself from socking my fellow trans* and g’queers in the eye a couple of times when they attack drag (in general) as being “transmisogynistic.”
          Not everyhting is about us, and no, it isn’t. Drag is performance and performative, and it’s great.

          • Msmlg1979

            Exactly. It’s entertainment. It’s a job. A hard job that requires lots of time, money, and effort if you’re going to be any good at it.

      • marxalot

        I once explained “genderqueer” to a friend by shaving my legs and trading my Docs for heels, just for a day. When he said that me doing Normal Girl things seemed more like drag than him in a dress, I knew he understood.

        • WomanComingHome

          Good for you. I’m a ciswoman, and I can only imagine what a pain in the ass it must be to have to explain your identity.

  • Tallmutha

    …the window showing Jackson “Reading the Bible” like any decent godfearing defender of owning human beings would do.

    Well, there’s a natural inclination to seek out reading material that confirms one’s biases.

  • goonemeritus

    If a church cant honor the mass subjugation of an entire race can we really say we have religious freedom?

  • Michael Smith

    Maybe Major Valchek from The Wire can finally get his window put up

  • Depressed that my first thought was, “I hope their fire insurance is paid up.”

    • freakishlystrong

      Mine as well. Pew Pew Pew!

    • eddi

      The people who object to such things as traitors and their flag being honored are less likely to use arson to express their opinion. Or throw a rock. We are slowly winning our way out of the shadow of the past. All the attempts to slow or stop us only increase our resolve.

  • fawkedifiknow

    “It’s just more war on religion to claim that the Bible has been used to justify a lot of pretty bad shit,” sayeth dumbasses everywhere.

  • Skwerl King

    Our cathedral has a Jimmy Carter window.

    • berkeleyfarm

      Awesome.

      Jimmy was a little after the windows were essentially completed on ours (*), but we do have John Glenn.

      * There was one left but the eventual “permanent” window was beautifully abstract. I make a point of showing it to people if I’m taking them around, because the window was on display before being installed during the horrible period after 9/11/01 and contemplating it helped.

  • pstockholm

    I’m thinking a bucket of good throwing-size rocks would be a pretty good option if they’re thinking over what to do.

  • alwayspunkindrublic

    What fucking country has stained glass tableaus depicting the heroism of treasonous rebel scum in their National Cathedral?

    • Gayer Than Thou

      I feel like this is a trick question…

    • MrBlobfish

      This fucking country right here.

    • freakishlystrong

      ♪ Hello? Christians.

  • Skadi

    One of my friends, a Civil War historian with some personal fondness for these guys, says that the people most embarrassed by the Cult of Lee and the Cult of Jackson would be Lee and Jackson themselves. And to be fair, one can picture them looking at some of the more fulsome tributes (“Stained glass windows in a church?!?!” their ghosts mutter) and facepalming.

    • marxalot

      Oh, yeah. Stonewall particularly- he was a genuine, 100% no additives Religious Nutcase, but he was a 19th Century one. Hairshirt, hallelujah and all. The last thing he would have wanted was a graven goddamn image of himself, much less in a church.

      • AlasAnAss

        I think you got to go back further than the 19th Century. He was more like a Cromwell. A Puritan murderer, in other words. Lee was the Cavalier ideal, or at least made out to be, but Jackson was stone cold Puritan.

        • marxalot

          Alas, our American Exceptionalism kept dragging things from the Stone Age up into modern times. I’m thinking specifically “19th Century Apocalyptic Cult” which is the perfect refinement of religious madness on this continent.

          • AlasAnAss

            Yes, great point.

            (And I love how American Exceptionalism in its various iterations is really just recycled stupid shit from wide swaths of stupid human history.)

      • Longstreet63

        Spot on. He was definitely a sincerely devout religious fanatic, and his religion included slavery. He was all about judging people, too, and enforcing his religious views on those in his power. But yeah, he would have strenuously objected to his own deification.

  • memzilla

    …a set of eight windows that were installed in 1953 with funding (and lobbying from) the United Daughters of the Confederacy,,,

    1953 was not only my birth year, but it was two years before — BE-FUCKING-FORE! — Emmett Till was murdered. How about replacing one of the windows with scenes of just how that whole “Heritage Not Hate” thing played out: Emmett Till having his eyeball beaten out of his head, a black man getting lynched, a black man getting dragged behind a pickup truck, a black man getting horsewhipped, a black man getting beaten up by a mob, a black man having his house burned by local Klansmen, four black girls getting blown up in a church, nine black people getting gunned down in a chuch by a…. you know, maybe one window isn’t going to be enough.

    • Latverian Diplomat

      Man the 50s sucked. Under cover of the Red Scare, you could promote just about any dumbass prejudice or bigotry you wanted.

      • Astraea

        Make America Great again!

        • MarkM

          They sincerely believe it was.

        • limberrat

          Most of the conservatives I know (even if they were born way after 1950) are nostalgic for the salad days of the 1950’s.

          • Celtic_Gnome

            They’re basing everything they know on reruns of “Father Knows Best”.

  • SuspectedDemocrat

    During the hymnal, ushers will be passing out vintage postcards depicting various lynchings. You know, to provide a catalyst for honest conversation.

  • Beaumarchais?

    If they’re short on cash they could just replace the flag with a white piece of glass.

    • SessileRaptor

      I was thinking the same thing. Why do anything else really?

  • Scooby

    I donate for stained glass showing Mexicans climbing over the wall

  • These windows are literally an abomination, and the panel with the apotheosis of Stonewall Jackson is blasphemy. I’d like to donate a brick to their removal.

    • Blank Ron

      I have a whole skid of the things. Help yourself. The concrete ones are especially effective.

  • stankbait

    Its a proud symbol of the southern heritage. Take pride in the fact that tens of thousands of people went to war and died trying to protect the rights of the 2% of the population that were slave owners. Back then people couldn’t be duped into giving their lives for the rich few. But it was all about states rights wasn’t it?

    • TJ Barke

      Hundreds of thousands.

      • Longstreet63

        2 million under arms, 600k dead.

    • Skadi

      Twenty-one miles of boys in blue,
      Sixty abreast in the last review —
      How grandly the columns stretch away
      In the cloudless light of this sweet May day.
      Onward in rank and file they come,
      To the cheering beat of the victors’ drum…

      …But alas, the army of countless dead —
      We shall list in vain for their coming tread;
      Full forty miles of our noble brave,
      Sixty abreast, are in the grave.
      As your cheers ring out for the living host,
      Remember the heroes loved and lost.

  • goonemeritus

    I have always felt allowing our capital to be sited on the wrong side of the Mason Dixon Line was a mistake. I think it’s long past time to move it back to Philadelphia, the Redcoats represent a negligible threat at this point.

    • Astraea

      They’re just lulling us into a false sense of security.

      • goonemeritus

        You could be right.

    • Longstreet63

      That’s just what the dastardly British want us to think!
      Canada is right there, full of extremely polite enemy troops!

      • theblackdog

        Until they send out their geese.

      • Ghenghis McCann

        Burn the White House once, and you Yankees never let it go.

      • goonemeritus

        not to mention they are mostly within a days march of our border, coincidence,I think not.

    • I Only Like Cats

      I agree and think the current Capitol building should be converted into an epic homeless shelter. Just putting it out there.

  • MrBlobfish

    You want to fight a lost cause? Big, hankin’ blobfish window.

  • Lazy Media

    I wonder if we’re ever going to get to the point where conservatives admit that the “reconciliation” sought by ex-Confederates was to reunite with their northern brethren in shared white supremacy. And by about 1910, they had thoroughly achieved that goal, leading to an explosion of tributes to Confederate virtue in everything from Southern civic statuary to Hollywood movies.

    • AlasAnAss

      And I wonder if we’ll ever pay enough attention to the complicity of northern whites in bringing about that “reconciliation.” Which is not to let white Southerners off the hook; it’s to prong Northerners onto it right there with them.

      • marxalot

        While we’re at it, maybe we can talk about the actual frigging grievances arising from “Reconstruction?” And how the influence of money, power, and a deal so bad that Versailles was better, stifled any hope of real redevelopment in the South and has only been enforced by over a century of neglect compounded by disregard and contempt? Pretty please?

        • AlasAnAss

          Sure. I mean, if you want to quibble over how African-Americans and non-elite whites were fucked over by the failures, on the one hand, and the “successes” of Reconstruction, on the other, by the federal government and, eventually, elite Southern whites.

          • marxalot

            That’s basically what I was thinking, yeah.

        • Biel_ze_Bubba

          It’s almost as if the North was pissed at the South, for some reason!

        • Lazy Media

          Most of those “grievances” were the loss of property taken from sworn traitors, and the loss of privileges when blacks were given voting and property rights. Nearly all of that went away as part of the deal to make Rutherford B. Hayes president, and blacks were put back into quasi-slavery for the next 80 years. Fuck the planterocracy’s “grievances.”

  • Treg.Brown

    So apparently in more locations around the US than I knew, people simply forget the South actually fucking lost the war, and glorify its traitorous deeds??

    • Skadi

      Because the Confederate descendants (according to my friend the historian) are just about the only people who are willing to build and maintain monuments. Northern people aren’t as emotionally invested, so the South has gotten to control the way things get remembered.

      • Treg.Brown

        The more I know… :- )

        • Blank Ron

          … the more you need a drink?

      • limberrat

        That’s why the Daughters of the Confederacy still exists and are very active in several secesh towns.

        • Ghenghis McCann

          How old are the ‘Daughters of the Confederacy’? Even the youngest, born in 1865, must be 151, possibly 152.

    • limberrat

      Well the Confederacy was just across the Potomac and Confederate apologists would argue would have included Maryland if it wasn’t for that Lincoln bastard.

      • YoBunnyBunny

        Oh, confederate apologist are all over Maryland. Go to any of the historical cemeteries around Baltimore, the sons/daughters of the Confederacy groups make sure that their C.S.A. cannon fodder have headstones and monuments. You can even “adopt” a confederate soldier, by golly, and get him a grave marker! After that little kerfuffle in South Carolina, one group in Maryland had to cancel their Confederate Heritage Parade last year.

        • Longstreet63

          Funny, that, since when Lee showed up in Maryland, he got virtually no local support at all. Which suggests that modern apologist are way more pro confederate than actual slaveholding Marylanders…

          • YoBunnyBunny

            Figures. Confederate fetish, as it were…

        • Biel_ze_Bubba

          In Green-Wood Cemetery, the Civil War graves from both sides get flags. American ones.

    • Astraea

      They’re still fighting the war.

      • eddi

        And losing harder than ever.

    • limberrat

      Read Confederates in the Attic sometime, it is rather revealing.

      • Skwerl King

        I love that book.

    • Biel_ze_Bubba

      The Appomattox Cease-Fire was a long time ago.

    • orygoon

      Yer havin us on, right?

  • SuspectedDemocrat

    Stonewall Jackson, patron saint of _____________?

    • Skadi

      Lemons.

    • Pickwicknext

      Traitors?

    • Oblios_Cap

      Stopping Bullets

    • Skadi

      Or getting fragged, if you believe some accounts.

    • Pickwicknext

      Mansplaining

    • limberrat

      Hypocondriacs

    • Spurning Beer

      gay nightclubs and plastic surgery patients

    • Fartknocker

      Arson and Conflagrations?

      • eddi

        That’s Gen. Sherman.

        • Skadi

          I thought he was Patron Saint of Looting?

          • eddi

            Some sergeant under probably gets that honor. Scroungers are legendary for their skills.

  • alwayspunkindrublic

    Just two weeks ago, I received the gift of beautifully photographed book about the many forged iron gates that adorn the National Cathedral. It was given to me-with a signed inscription-by an old blacksmith friend of mine who designed and built three of them. Over the decades, the nation’s finest practitioners of the metal arts were commissioned to build these gates, and I’ve always been very proud of my friend’s astonishing craftsmanship featured there. I really hope these odious glass panels are removed.

  • bubbuhh

    Washington National Cathedral has 231 stained glassed windows. Also, Darth Vader is one of the gargoyles. It’s a fun place.

    • bubbuhh

      But, they don’t have an Alien gargoyle like Paisley Abbey in Scotland has. My spiritual life is much saddened by this.

      • doktorzoom

        Tokenism!

        • Pickwicknext

          Only if the alien one is painted black

        • SuspectedDemocrat

          J.R.R. Token? Wheres the Uruk-hai?

      • sadboy

        The Church of St. Ripley?

        • doktorzoom

          The patron saint of the Church of Newt the Disciple is far too likely to be misidentified as a moon man.

          • theblackdog

            Yeah, plus that would be stealing from the National Cathedral which does have a moon rock in one of its stained glass windows.

      • therblig

        prayer over, man, prayer over. amen

    • SDGeoff

      It is a wonderful place.

  • thirdeblue

    You make those window panes for an alternate history movie depicting the USA being run by some American Christian Authoritarianism Party and you’d be criticized for being too on the nose.

  • Blank Ron

    Hang on a sec: why are there pictures of generals fighting a war in a CHURCH?

    • SuspectedDemocrat

      No biggie, they’ve been showing executions in church from the beginning. It’s like a big Sunday Snuff Film.

    • SnarkOff

      Because Jesus loves American war. And also American high school football. And the Oscars.

      • Barley_Brains

        And Walmart shoppers who find a parking spot right at the door.

    • Skwerl King

      The Patton window in Church of Our Savior, San Gabriel, California.

      http://www.hectorsfriends.com/images/G-PattenWindow-1422.jpg

      • Skadi

        So, the more cuckoo eccentric the general, the likelier he is to end up in a stained glass window?

    • therblig
    • Biel_ze_Bubba

      Not exactly a new thing.
      http://41.media.tumblr.com/f5fcf2fada2528f2dc1f0c8a076ea76c/tumblr_nnintggSqV1ssmm02o1_1280.jpg
      The Crusaders get a lot of glass time in European cathedrals. As long as you’re killing for Jeebus, it’s cool… the very same sentiment that’s behind the Confederate windows.

      • Skadi

        Ah, the good ol’ Song of Roland, amirite? “The bishops bless the waters and convert the heathen. If any man protests, he is burned or put to the sword.”

    • UncleTravelingMatt

      St.-Mere-Eglise. How 12th century French people predicted the D-Day airborne landings while they were building the church remains a mystery.

  • coozledad

    When in doubt. always, always listen to the voices of the oppressed.
    I remained with Gen. Lee for about seventeen months, when my sister Mary, a cousin of ours, and I determined to run away, which we did in the year 1859; we had already reached Westminster, in Maryland, on our way to the North, when we were apprehended and thrown into prison, and Gen. Lee notified of our arrest; we remained in prison fifteen days, when we were sent back to Arlington; we were immediately taken before Gen. Lee, who demanded the reason why we ran away; we frankly told him that we considered ourselves free; he then told us he would teach us a lesson we never would forget; he then ordered us to the barn, where, in his presence, we were tied firmly to posts by a Mr. Gwin, our overseer, who was ordered by Gen. Lee to strip us to the waist and give us fifty lashes each, excepting my sister, who received but twenty; we were accordingly stripped to the skin by the overseer, who, however, had sufficient humanity to decline whipping us; accordingly Dick Williams, a county constable, was called in, who gave us the number of lashes ordered; Gen. Lee, in the meantime, stood by, and frequently enjoined Williams to lay it on well, an injunction which he did not fail to heed; not satisfied with simply lacerating our naked flesh, Gen. Lee then ordered the overseer to thoroughly wash our backs with brine, which was done. After this my cousin and myself were sent to Hanover Court-House jail, my sister being sent to Richmond to an agent to be hired; we remained in jail about a week, when we were sent to Nelson county, where we were hired out by Gen. Lee’s agent to work on the Orange and Alexander railroad; we remained thus employed for about seven months, and were then sent to Alabama, and put to work on what is known as the Northeastern railroad; in January, 1863, we were sent to Richmond, from which place I finally made my escape through the rebel lines to freedom; I have nothing further to say; what I have stated is true in every particular, and I can at any time bring at least a dozen witnesses, both white and black, to substantiate my statements: I am at present employed by the Government; and am at work in the National Cemetary on Arlington Heights, where I can be found by those who desire further particulars; my sister referred to is at present employed by the French Minister at Washington, and will confirm my statement.

    • jmhm

      What a gentleman.

    • alwayspunkindrublic

      The slave overseer was more humane than the sainted Rbt. E. Lee. Amazing.

    • Sardonicuss

      Funny, I don’t remember Shelby Foote or George Will relating this story in loving monotones of respect in their “Civil War” contributions.
      Must have been lost in editing.

      • OrdinaryJoe

        You can only turn treason into a noble “lost cause” if you ignore the real reason behind the treason.

    • Biel_ze_Bubba

      Thst’s some Heritage, that Southern Heritage.

      • Gloria English

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        • Biel_ze_Bubba

          You still suck at math.

  • mancityfooty .

    If anyone is interested in how Kansas started the Civil War, read this:
    http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=moa;idno=AFK1368
    I have a hard (snickers) copy.
    A very good read.

  • limberrat

    And Stonewall believed one side of his body was heavier than the other so he would lift his arm to “balance” himself out. If he did have those early successes and die when he did, he probably would have not be as revered as he was.

  • DodgeDixie&Descartes

    It’s a church. Not sure any depictions of war or politics are a super great groovy huge idea. When I was a kid my grandmother would put the battle flag out at her own grandfather’s grave on Confederate Memorial Day. My sister once asked, “Why do we still do this?” To which my Gran would answer, “Because he was a foolish, illiterate man with no money or property who believed that war was an adventure. He came home kinder and wiser.” My Gran was a firm believer that flags weren’t about pride but reminders of human frailty and ignorance — painful and necessary and best left in the hall closet to gather dust but for once a year.

    • AnOuthouse

      Its weird being in churches where the saints being memoralized are from the crusades. It really creeped me out the first time that happened.

  • Suttree

    I have pissed on the statues of Lee, Davis, and Beauregard many times.

  • YoBunnyBunny

    Well, it’s coming soon or later…

    THIS is a VIOLATIONS Of THE CONSTITUITION!!1111! RELIGIOUS FREEDOMZ!! FREE SPEECH!!!111!! GOVERNMENT OVERREACH !!!! POLITICAL CORRECTNESS!!11!!!!

    • SnarkOff

      “THESE POLITICALLY CORRECT LIBTARDS WANT TO DENY HISTORY” libel!

      • DoILookAmused2u ?

        Yes, it was vitally important that those windows be installed with that traitor flag in 1953 ahead of the Brown V Board of Education decision.

    • SDGeoff

      Private property!

  • limberrat

    And yet Longstreet gets no love…oh yeah. He betray the sainted confederacy by being a grown up.

    • DodgeDixie&Descartes

      Longstreet was a better General than Jackson, but it didn’t hurt his rehabilitation any to be related by marriage to best his friend “Sam” Grant. To elevate Lee and Jackson to sainthood within the “Cause” required vilifying the one man qualified to second guess their mistakes. Longstreet deserves to at least be acknowledged — even if he was a member of Republican Party.

      • UncleTravelingMatt

        The best way to go out on top is to get killed by your own side. Also helps if you get out of the fight before the pros show up.

        • Skadi

          This was a thing that kept happening with Confederate generals…let me see if I can remember Grant’s sick burns on the subject:

          I do not question the personal courage of General Johnston, or his ability. But he did not win the distinction predicted for him
          by many of his friends. He did prove that as a general he was
          over-estimated…Some of the critics claim that Shiloh was won when Johnston fell, and that if he had not fallen the army under me would have been annihilated or captured. IFS defeated the Confederates at Shiloh. There is little doubt that we would have been disgracefully beaten IF all the shells and bullets fired by us had passed harmlessly over the enemy and IF all of theirs had taken effect.

          Commanding generals are liable to be killed during engagements; and the fact that when he was shot Johnston was leading a brigade to induce it to make a charge which had been repeatedly ordered, is evidence that there was neither the universal demoralization on our side nor the unbounded confidence on theirs which has been claimed.

          • AlasAnAss

            My favorite Grant story–aside from how he died mere days after finishing the memoirs that would support his family after he was gone–concerns a night visit Sherman made to him after the first day of Shiloh. The Union forces had held on, barely, after a massive assault from the Confederates. They huddled together under a tree as a spring rain fell. Sherman said, “Well, we had the devil’s own today.” Grant said nothing for a moment, then replied, “Yeah, lick ’em tomorrow though.”

        • Last Hussar

          The British army wasn’t going to show up though.

          • UncleTravelingMatt

            Probably busy refining their plan for taking New Orleans.

      • Skadi

        It also helped that he got what sounds like anti-cult deprogramming from the Grants afterwards. Too bad they couldn’t have made it more widespread…

      • Playonwords

        H’mmmm

        So if a right winger goes on about how the Demonrat party were pro-slavery it must be OK to point out that Lee and Jackson must have been Democratic and Longstreet was certainly Republican …

  • lucidamente

    Can’t we just get back to Jew-hating religious art, like Jesus intended?

  • SnarkOff

    How much do you think the Dean of the National Cathedral will have to drink in order to deal with the screeching white-supremicist idiots who will oppose this decision?

    • The Wanderer

      Quite a lot, and none of it sacramental.

    • SDGeoff

      The cathedral deans are generally pretty smart cookies, and will tell them to go shit in hell, and then ignore them.

  • lucidamente

    Can’t we just get back to Jew-hating religious art, just like Jesus intended?

    • orygoon

      I was just thinking that while I’m all RAH RAH about this American thing, the Germans have laws about Jewish defamation, but I’ve been in German churches with stained-glass windows of Martin Luther, who was pretty mean to Jews. So there is a line somewhere, but it’s not completely clear to me where the line is. (Full disclosure: I grew up Lutheran and my lovely midwestern relatives are Lutherans still, and I think a most of Luther’s Catholic-smackdown was great stuff.)

      • lucidamente

        Way back in 1983, I mentioned to an art historian friend that this year was the 500th anniversary of the birth of Raphael and Martin Luther. “Yes,” he said, “and we don’t have to apologize for our guy.”

        • orygoon

          And the very next year was 1984! Coincidence?!?!

      • Sardonicuss

        I had heard long ago that since all nazi iconography, including the swastika flag are constitutionally banned for display in Germany, the the local Neo-nazis often use the American Flag of Treason in it’s stead. Anyone who has been in Germany know if this is true?

        • limberrat
          • orygoon

            But ja, I was afraid so…

          • Sardonicuss

            Thanks.

        • orygoon

          No idea; haven’t been to Germany that much, don’t know enough German to do real conversations, and never went to neo-Nazi rallies. Looking at Nefertiti and the Cologne cathedral, riding bikes up the Rhine River, eating fabulous bread and drinking excellent cheap wine, making friends with the neighbors and getting hilarious about things like borrowing the “dirtsucker” (German is a relentlessly literal language), attending to The Heir’s and Spare’s progress in schools–just too many distractions. Oh, and worrying at the end of the week if we had enough toilet paper to get through “Ladenschluß”, you try not to make that mistake twice.

        • Playonwords

          I know that British Fascists love them the losers flag

  • Biel_ze_Bubba

    Plain white flags seem entirely appropriate.

  • weejee

    But leaving the image of a surveyor and his transit is okay?!!? Wake-up sheeple

    • zerosumgame0005

      Dammed Masonic Illuminati!

  • NorthStarSpanx

    The backlash will be interesting in comparison to LaPage taking down the pro-labor mural in Maine’s Capitol when business donors complained.

  • DoILookAmused2u ?

    What will we use as “subtle” reminders that our African Americans are second-class citizens if these windows are removed?

    • limberrat

      Just go to Charleston they slap subtle reminders all over the place.

      • DoILookAmused2u ?

        I live near Memphis these days, so we have ’em all around us too.

    • SuspectedDemocrat

      Well they do have to drive to and from church.

  • borninatrailer

    Someone is not gonna be impressed..

    • SuspectedDemocrat

      I think I went to high school with that guy.

  • Bureaucrap

    Jackson was reading the bible to underline all the passages that said that slavery was a-ok.

  • SDGeoff

    iMHO, the Episcopal Church has some further ‘splainin’ to do concerning the building boom in the fifties, particularly in the south, of private parochial schools run by parishes. Oddly enough, they were being built at the very same time that white parents were panty-wadded over integration and busing.

  • RoyalUglyDude

    Better choice:

  • bubbuhh

    Here’s a nice puzzle. What’s missing from hyer web site’s main page?
    Yeah, yeah off topic.

    https://gop.com/

    • limberrat

      Pay no attention to the short fingered vulgarian!

    • eddi

      They are still hoping they will wake up and find Jeb! is their candidate.

      • orygoon

        And I am still afraid that they might pull it off.

        • limberrat

          Jeb! walks out in front of the convention after using “America” on a certain person. The building is silent and Jeb says:

          https://youtu.be/DdCYMvaUcrA?t=27

        • eddi

          Between losing all the Trump supporters and the fact Clinton could debate him into a coma there is little to worry about.

        • Bitter Scribe

          Exclamation Point’s implosion just astonished me. But I don’t think he’s coming back.

    • Skwerl King

      Not just the obvious, but the crying eagle. Where the fuck is the crying eagle?

      • Playonwords

        You know how frighten Teh Donald is if eagles

    • TJ Barke

      Damn that hilz and her foreign policy! She’s not militaristic enough! Sure she’ll drone bomb some brown foreigns, probably authorize some coups, but not nearly enough! Damn peacenik!

      • Astraea

        “Her failure of leadership means refusing to categorize the terrorist threat as “radical Islam” and refusing to say that the U.S. is at war with ISIS. Clinton claims we need to “empathize” with our enemies, a foolish course of action in the face of murderous attacks like the one in San Bernardino last fall.”

        Yeah, basically. (ETA I mean I agree with Barke’s snark, not the GOP!)

        • TJ Barke

          That may seem like a clever rhyme, but Barke is pronounced with a long e. Pretty sure it got fucked up on Ellis Island.

        • Biel_ze_Bubba

          I seriously thought that was snark, right up to the closing quotation mark.

    • TheGrandWaz00
      • Msgr_Moment

        Grownups?

      • proudgrampa

        I am so going to miss that couple in the White House. They are a model of what a loving marriage is all about.

    • Hairstrike Alpha

      That Hillary thing….they’re whining about nomenclature again, aren’t they? “Yew don’t call it radical Islamic terrorism therefore we don’t know we’re mad at Muslins!”, FFS wingnuts

    • Hairstrike Alpha

      The GOP is really trying hard to recruit Bernie Bros, it’s really sad to watch such obvious transparency from the Klansmen, er conservatives.

    • pstockholm

      Yams apparently. But then that’s an Autumn dish, best enjoyed cold. Looking forward to it.

      • Skadi

        Yams = Revenge? Good to know.

        • pstockholm

          We snark with the mixed metaphors we have, while waiting for better ones to appear. Just go with you’ll be enjoying yourself in November.

      • Bitter Scribe

        You mean the weather should be cold, not the yams, right?

        • pstockholm

          Jeez I got a whole rhetoric posse on my case.

          • Bitter Scribe

            Not being a grammar Nazi. I just didn’t think cold yams would be appealing, but who knows, maybe there’s some dynamite recipe for Diced Yam Salad.

          • pstockholm

            Naa, just kidding. My original non-comment was borderline nonsensical so not surprised if you’re head-scratching.

      • Biel_ze_Bubba

        Mashed yams are a great November treat!

  • Brewerofbeers

    “The Washington National Cathedral has decided to remove two images of the Confederate slavery flag ”

    I have this image of all the self-described historians at StormFront twitching their collective ears and noses, like my dog does when she hears or sees a squirrel, when you wrote that Dok.

  • Hairstrike Alpha

    Oh boy….they’d better brace themselves for the ALL CAPS emails and spittle infused phone calls. Also, it might be a good idea to prepare for gun toting assholes in Confederate wear to show up and protest….theyze stoled ar heritaje!

  • Hairstrike Alpha

    I won’t know what to think of this until I get Alex Jones take on it….

    • Incoming Ham

      New World Order, Hispanics, Libruls.

      • Historicat

        What about the Illuminati? The Trilateral Commission? The Lizard People?

        • Incoming Ham

          You’re right – it’s all part of the false flag operation.

          • Historicat

            I blame the Reverse Vampires.

          • Incoming Ham

            They’ve teamed up with the aliens and bigfoot.

    • limberrat

      Somehow this has to do with Trump in some way…just wait.

  • Msgr_Moment

    ALL WRITE!@! HOO BROKE THE WONKET?

  • elviouslyqueer

    HOW DARE THIS CHURCH INFRINGE UPON THE RELIGIOUS FREEDUM OF PEOPLE TO BE BIGOTY RACISTS ETC ALSO TOO SCREAMY COMIC SANS EXCLAMATION POINT ELEVENSES!!!!!111!!!!

  • Bitter Scribe

    A couple of reactions:

    1) Since Jackson was killed by friendly fire, if God fixed the time of his death, He is not only omniscient but has a wicked sense of humor.

    2) I’ve always associated stained glass in churches with saints and martyrs. It’s weird to me to see it depicting soldiers, who, whatever the righteousness of their cause, are all about killing other people.

  • bubbuhh

    Elizabeth Warren: Trump is ‘a loud, nasty, thin-skinned fraud’
    http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/elizabeth-warren-trump-loud-nasty-thin-skinned-fraud

    Yeah, OT but, I can only look at stained glass windows on the Tubez for so long.

    Anywayz MSNBC just put up a Elizabeth Warren thumping of Trunip. And, EW, she my hero!

  • eddi

    I was just looking over the brochure for the National Cathedral. The windows are all located in the Jackson-Lee nave. The naves are small chapels along the long sides of the cathedral. Each is dedicated to a single theme. When I visited in the early 60s most were incomplete.

    • The Wanderer

      The Space Window has a small piece of lunar rock embedded in it. I toured the Cathedral in 1987, and attended services on the Sunday before my birthday (leaving just before the Eucharist).

  • UncleTravelingMatt

    Huh. The Dean in 1953 was a vocal opponent of McCarthy who later marched with Dr. King.

  • Joshua Norton

    “exemplary Christian people,”

    Yeah. And how did that work out for them in the end?

    By getting their exemplary asses kicked, in spite of all their supposed prayers for things to turn out otherwise. Take the hint already!

  • Thaumaturgist

    Didn’t we warn you that gay marriage is a slippery slope?

  • theblackdog

    It’s nice to see they are following through so far with creating a discussion about it. I hope the next Dean of the Cathedral will continue.

    • SDGeoff

      The newly elected Presiding Bishop is African-American and very liberal. Look forward to it.

      • theblackdog

        Yes but he is not the Dean of the National Cathedral. Right now the Bishop of the Diocese of Washington, Maryann Edgar Budde is the temporary Dean until they call a new one.

    • SuspectedDemocrat

      And I hope he will include window removal contractors in this discussion going forward.

  • chascates

    Replace it with one of Paul Robeson.

    • proudgrampa

      I second that motion.

    • The Wanderer

      And Malcolm X. Not that he was a Christian; I want to see heads explode.

  • Villago Delenda Est

    Why are they commemorating two sacks of treasonous shit in the first place?

    • Playonwords

      Because they were “Good Christians” which isn’t setting the bar very high, in fact it’s burying it

    • Serai 1

      Read the article. It was done as part of an effort to reconcile the North and South after the War of Southern Arrogance.

    • handyhippie65

      it was paid for by the daughters of the confederacy. they still think their granddaddies were cool.

  • SuspectedDemocrat

    I don’t know why y’all are so upset about a stained glass window depiction of Victoria Jackson. Compared to most photos of her, this one is quite flattering.

    • JustDon’tSayDittos

      Being ‘generally batshit crazy’ doesn’t make Vickie an actual general. Even in The South.

  • DemmeFatale

    Poor Mr. Fatale and my Wonkette-ese!
    Yesterday I said “traitor flag” and “Miss Lindsey.”
    (He just rolls his eyes.)

  • Joshua Norton

    Are they just removing the battle flags? Because there’s also images of the official “Stars and Bars” confederate flag as well. Those shouldn’t get a free pass either.
    .

  • Jonny On Maui

    Dok, the finish on that was perfect!

    • doktorzoom

      Thanks :)

  • OneYieldRegular

    They should replace it with an image of Henry Rollins.

  • Jen_Baker_VA

    Good.
    And let the whiners whine. The minute they agree to (and pay for!) a stained glass window depicting the heroic life of Hirohito is the minute they get to say we should so honor declared enemies of the United States of America without being utter hypocrits.

  • Serai 1

    I’m torn on this ONLY because for a number of years (in the 80’s and early 90’s), I made stained glass windows. (Hanging pieces and installed windows, but not anything enormous like in a church.) So I always appreciate the INCREDIBLE amount of work it takes to make one of those fucking things. WAY more than you know. It’s painstaking work with gorgeous materials, and results in a lot of scarred fingers as well as beautiful light. So it makes me sad both to see crapheaded images made with this art (though yes, they weren’t crapheaded at the time they were made) AND sad to see such art threatened. I hope the windows will be preserved somewhere and not destroyed. Destruction is NEVER the way to deal with objectionable art. Better to use it for education somehow.

    • Incoming Ham

      Sell them off to some rebel patriot and they can put them up in their doublewide. Give the proceeds to a charity.

    • Zippy W Pinhead

      They shouldn’t destroy them. They should be put in display with the appropriate explanation why they were removed and why it is wrong to celebrate these sorts of things. I agree with Dok-find a museum somewhere…

      • Serai 1

        Yep. They’re also very fine work, and contain a huge amount of glass that is not only beautiful, but also impossible to make anymore. Stained glass is produced by individual houses that have their own recipes and styles, which is why you can tell where a piece of glass came from if you have the knowhow. (There’s a lot of lovely glass I used to work with that has vanished, because the houses that made them in Germany are gone now, and the knowledge of how to make, for instance, Cathedral Blue and Sunshine Gold antique glass, which was passed down through the family, cannot be duplicated. *sigh*)

  • JMP

    But they were exemplary Christian people; if you read the Bible, it’s very clear on slavery being great, which is one of the many reasons why anyone who claims you can get moral advice from that piece of shit book is an idiot.

  • Frosty dog

    I have mixed emotions. I get the confederate flag is a symbol of racism and slavery and is a bad thing. I agree flying the Confederate flag in front of the statehouses today in the south is wrong.

    I have concerns that if we continue remove it from things like this we will eventually remove all the ” bad” parts of our history from public view and there would no longer be visual reminders of the what happened. In 50 years children could see it and not have any clue what it represented.

    This is a piece of artwork depicting a part of our national history in our National Cathedral. It is not a bumber sticker or spray painted graffiti. Are we as a country only going to display what we did, what we are, that was good?

    • Jonny On Maui

      No. That’s why we teach history and have museums. That way we remember our history and don’t repeat the same mistakes.

      ::gigglesnort!!::

    • UnsaltedSinner

      I wouldn’t worry about that. You can put the artwork in a museum, if you think it’s worth preserving. And no one is removing the Confederate flag from history books. To cite the obvious example, we don’t need swastikas on public display to remember World War II.

    • OrdinaryJoe

      Once they took off their uniforms as officers of the US Army and took up arms against the Union they violated their oath to defend the United States and became traitors. Memorialize them if you must in places that are reserved for commemorating traitors but not in the places that celebrate our national history.

      • Jeff in the desert

        Lincoln should have arrested Robert E. Lee on the spot.

    • Iam Reading

      So, we will stop teaching history? Not all of us are Texas

    • handyhippie65

      germany removed most of the nazi propaganda, but still remember what they did. i say most, because as a soldier in ansbach germany in the 80’s, there was a statue of a nazi soldier mounted on a horse above one of the doors to a church built in the 13th century still in place. i saw it, and was surprised.

    • Sakonyachen

      I get what you are saying, but here’s the problem; it wasn’t even the official confederate flag, and yet we haven’t forgot about the Civil War. Not an issue. The only way it becomes an issue is when we try to pretend slavery never happened and the war wasn’t about that. The apologists who want to pretend that the Civil War was about state’s rights suddenly forget about the mention of slavery in most if not all the seceding state’s declarations. Worry about that bullshit. Fuck that flag. It’s only 2 or 3 battalions away from being made up by the Klan.

  • Querolous

    The Episcopalians need to follow the lead of Oregon and the city of Jackson (State Capitol!!) Mississippi and remove that state flag from the main chapel

    http://www.statesmanjournal.com/story/news/local/oregon/2016/03/10/mississippi-flag-removed-oregon-capitol/81610542/

  • timpundit

    We episcos are pretty chill.

  • RLS1024, Druid – American

    Life sure would have been a lot easier if the Democrats hadn’t started that Civil War just so they could keep their bought and paid for black slaves.

    • handyhippie65

      and it would be a lot easier if people remembered that the parties basically switched places. the descendants of those democrats are republicans now. they didn’t change positions, just parties.

    • doktorzoom

      Funny, you don’t LOOK Druish. But you do look very banhammered

    • Sakonyachen

      Thanks for the history lesson there Alex Haley! I’m sure no one who comes to a forum for making vile and sarcastic jokes about politics would be so well versed in the history of the two parties. Did it occur to you that all that actually happened is the racists went to the other party and took their ideals with them? So no, dickwart, those people are now republicans that started it. Take your memes to Breitbart, they will be appreciated there.

    • Joe Blowski

      yes, racist southern whites were democrats then. now they’re republicans.

  • Kooolest G

    or they could do what yale did with their portrait of john calhoun, the squares that are blank are where the old picture of the slave in chains kneeling before their master. if you ask me they should have left the picture of the slave and got rid of the picture of calhoun

    • Sakonyachen

      I believe they should keep both. When people talk about the “great men” who “built” this nation, we can be reminded how. Lest we forget. In a new and not so secret way, they are attempting to do it again, but without whips and chains. This time they will use police and debt. Forgetting Calhoun and his ideological brethren only makes us more vulnerable to their plans. Having the slave there reminds me who “built” this nation. And it wasn’t white guys in clothing of questionable masculinity and wigs.

  • disqus_4xWLuBQVP7

    Erasing our history, one hypocrite at a time.

  • disqus_4xWLuBQVP7

    Just like the Nazi’s, we will just remove anything we are not proud of, and lie about the rest.

  • frrolfe

    Can someone please explain what a “National Cathedral” is? Is there a “National Mosque”, a “National Hindu Temple”, a “National Synagogue” etc? Separation of Church and State etc.

    • Sakonyachen

      It is the cathedral in D.C. that has nothing to do with government. By national, they mean in DC, for the whole nation. And there is a national mosque. But they don’t call it that.

  • OrdinaryJoe

    You want to honor heroes of the Civil War in the National Cathedral? Honor this guy and flag he served.

    “William Harvey Carney (February 29, 1840–December 9, 1908) was an African American soldier during the American Civil War. In 1900, he was awarded the Medal of Honor for his gallantry during the Battle of Fort Wagner in 1863. Because his actions preceded those of other medal honorees, he is considered to be the first African American to be granted the Medal of Honor…When the color guard was fatally wounded, Carney retrieved the American flag from his comrade and marched forward with it, despite suffering multiple serious wounds. When the Union troops were forced to retreat under fire, Carney struggled back across the battlefield. He eventually made his way back to his own lines and turned over the colors to another survivor of the 54th, modestly saying, “Boys, I only did my duty; the old flag never touched the ground!” Carney received an honorable discharge due to disability (as a result of his wounds) in June 1864.” https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/0cad95333c8bfe7a002a295c15c40254bfa3847e3d57451e51cc30c574904124.jpg

  • John27

    ..

    • doktorzoom

      Moran banhammered; see you again Sunday

  • John27

    Once we erase the Civil War from history, then slavery can be legal again.

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